/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Nov 18 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> zewt: The issue here, basically, is whether we have 0. If we don't, then we have no choice but to Just Work™. But if we do, then we should try for Make It Nice™.
  4. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> if application/x-font-ttf is the one that everyone has already basically standardized on, then fine
  5. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> what about the others?
  6. # [00:01] <zewt> not something i can answer
  7. # [00:02] <zewt> is this something that actually bears on the web? for example, are there any browsers that refuse to load a font if the MIME type isn't x-font-ttf or something else?
  8. # [00:03] <zewt> (i don't know the answer--I don't know if I set the above case because something wasn't working, or if i was just being pedantic with my HTTP headers)
  9. # [00:03] <annevk> browsers ignore MIME types for fonts
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  11. # [00:04] <annevk> at least when I looked at it
  12. # [00:04] <zewt> i assume that they'll never change that, then, since it would break tons of sites
  13. # [00:04] <zewt> (i suppose there are ways they could--sniffing, again--but I don't know why they would)
  14. # [00:07] <annevk> TIL the person who registered all the URI schemes is on the IAB http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/dthaler/
  15. # [00:07] <annevk> (all the URI schemes listed on Wikipedia)
  16. # [00:14] <annevk> kinda weird that a modern RFC like http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6055 still talks about ISO-2022-JP is if it would be used at the system level
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  18. # [00:16] <zewt> i wonder if japan is still fighting tooth and nail against unicode, heh
  19. # [00:16] <zewt> not that japan is a single consciousness or anything
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  21. # [00:18] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6055#section-3 is interesting, I hadn't considered that even "." could be a valid part of a label
  22. # [00:19] <annevk> although using a "." might require a bunch of custom software
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  81. # [05:25] <heycam> TIL: <p><div></div></p> is actually <p></p><div></div>
  82. # [05:25] <heycam> (should have known)
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  111. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> "The value attribute, if specified, must have a value that contains no U+000A LINE FEED (LF) or U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR) characters."
  112. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> for input type=text and type=search
  113. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#text-(type=text)-state-and-search-state-(type=search)
  114. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> does that mean the value can be empty?
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  135. # [10:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah
  136. # [10:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: only when it's required="" it must be non-empty
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  142. # [11:03] <annevk> matjas: you sure it works in Chrome for url.spec.whatwg.org and that it's not caching?
  143. # [11:04] <annevk> matjas: because if it does it's very weird the JS one does not work
  144. # [11:05] <annevk> matjas: in any event, the modifications I made were relative to the JS original logo so I'm not sure how that would have an effect on favicon use, does the original work as favicon?
  145. # [11:05] <annevk> context: https://github.com/voodootikigod/logo.js/issues/32
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  149. # [11:11] <annevk> I wonder how the GitHub language algorithm works... https://github.com/whatwg/quirks is 100% Racket?! I guess it doesn't work
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  153. # [11:19] <annevk> http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2011-m07/0036.html
  154. # [11:20] <annevk> http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2011-m07/0057.html
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  167. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> yay we got a code contribution for the validator that provides a "Show outline" feature
  168. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> and that conforms to the outline algorithm, as far as I can see
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  179. # [13:51] <Davstern15> Can you somehow set the amount of anti-aliasing for text drawn in a Canvas? Like you can in Flash?
  180. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> Davstern15: no
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  186. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> oh
  187. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> Davstern15: see recent discussion at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/thread.html#msg124
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  195. # [14:56] <Davstern15> MikeSmith: Reading.
  196. # [14:56] <Davstern15> Or at least I thought I was reading it...
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  199. # [14:57] <Davstern15> Reading, but am confused by the bizarre format it's in.
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  204. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> Davstern15: eh?
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  207. # [15:10] <Davstern15> MikeSmith: The weird threaded stuff.
  208. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> I don't understand what's weird about it man
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  210. # [15:11] <Davstern15> I always found it weird. Unnavigitable.
  211. # [15:11] <Davstern15> I like the term "enable-able".
  212. # [15:15] <Davstern15> MikeSmith: I don't understand why people are opposed to letting me change how the text is displayed.
  213. # [15:15] <Davstern15> I want blurry AA sometimes.
  214. # [15:15] <Davstern15> I want sharp text sometimes.
  215. # [15:16] <Davstern15> I actually love the way text looks in Flash.
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  231. # [16:42] <zewt> most font renderers in browsers probably don't have anything like that, so you're not asking for a simple feature
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  248. # [17:31] <GPHemsley> annevk: Is Tcl
  249. # [17:31] <GPHemsley> annevk: mimesniff is Tcl
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  252. # [17:39] * GPHemsley wonders why so many people are now requesting wiki accounts, and why they're not using them.
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  254. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: spammers maybe?
  255. # [17:47] <GPHemsley> MikeSmith: If so, then I'm glad I left the autoconfirmed user restrictions in place.
  256. # [17:47] <GPHemsley> There was one request to day where the guy wants one username for himself and another for his company
  257. # [17:47] <GPHemsley> Not sure I understand that one
  258. # [17:50] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@81-231-170-159-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  259. # [17:50] <Davstern15> "today" or "to day"?
  260. # [17:50] <Davstern15> Very different meanings.
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  265. # [18:06] <GPHemsley> Wow, Microsoft. Way to be annoying.
  266. # [18:06] <GPHemsley> The EOT magic number is 34 bytes in.
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  270. # [18:17] <Davstern15> GPHemsley: ?
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  274. # [18:34] <Hixie> anyone know of any online software that i can use to edit subtitles?
  275. # [18:35] * Quits: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
  276. # [18:35] <GPHemsley> Hixie: UniversalSubtitles.org?
  277. # [18:36] <GPHemsley> Davstern15: This mostly a development channel; we blog out loud here.
  278. # [18:36] <GPHemsley> +is
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  281. # [18:38] <Hixie> GPHemsley: that looks like it'd be awesome, except the video i want to subtitle is private
  282. # [18:38] <GPHemsley> oh :/
  283. # [18:38] <Hixie> yeah :-(
  284. # [18:38] <Hixie> i'll just do it by hand i guess
  285. # [18:39] <zewt> maybe one of these days i'll get around to hacking up mpc or something to let me edit subtitles in-place
  286. # [18:39] <Davstern15> If I had the authors of Firefox, Chrome, Safari and Opera in a room... I would make so many threats...
  287. # [18:39] <zewt> for those regular occurances of seeing a really bad translation and wanting to just pause and fix it and continue
  288. # [18:39] <Hixie> yeah i was just thinking i'd just do it by hand at some point
  289. # [18:39] <Davstern15> Terrible, terrible threats.
  290. # [18:39] <Davstern15> And also IE.
  291. # [18:40] <GPHemsley> Davstern15: And what purpose would that serve?
  292. # [18:44] <Davstern15> GPHemsley: Hopefully it would make them fix the broken things.
  293. # [18:44] <GPHemsley> And those would be...?
  294. # [18:44] <Davstern15> Such as... actually make Canvas rendering fast (all except for IE).
  295. # [18:44] <GPHemsley> And you think human beings respond best to threats?
  296. # [18:44] <Davstern15> IE guys would have to make WebGL or some kind of WebX.
  297. # [18:44] <Davstern15> No, but it was more of a joke.
  298. # [18:44] <GPHemsley> You think threatening them would motivate them to do things for you more than being kind to them?
  299. # [18:45] <GPHemsley> Maybe lending them a hand?
  300. # [18:45] <GPHemsley> Because you basically have developers from all those camps right here in this room.
  301. # [18:45] <Davstern15> They are here?
  302. # [18:45] <Davstern15> If a Firefox developer is here right now: kindly fix your slow Canvas rendering. Please.
  303. # [18:46] <GPHemsley> I would guess it's a lot harder than waving a magic wand.
  304. # [18:46] <Davstern15> And if an Opera guy is here: PLEASE let me hide the cursor when hovering a div square used for a game.
  305. # [18:46] <Davstern15> There is nothing security-related that prevents that.
  306. # [18:46] <Davstern15> It is only annoying.
  307. # [18:46] <Davstern15> Well...
  308. # [18:46] <Davstern15> It is year 2012 after all. I frankly cannot believe that even CPU-based drawing is this slow.
  309. # [18:47] <Davstern15> I mean, when arc() for example is called, that isn't JavaScript doing it. It's the implementation being told what to do.
  310. # [18:47] <Davstern15> So it should be native speed, which means any computer younger than 40 years or so should be able to draw an arc flawlessly at super speed.
  311. # [18:48] <GPHemsley> It being "the year 2012" is also a magic wand.
  312. # [18:48] <GPHemsley> The actual design behind canvas is only a few years old.
  313. # [18:48] <GPHemsley> The code has likely not been optimized for every usecase.
  314. # [18:49] <GPHemsley> Have you file a bug with Mozilla?
  315. # [18:49] <GPHemsley> +d
  316. # [18:49] <Philip`> Davstern15: Anybody who cares about speed likely uses pre-rendered bitmaps, so browser developers can provide the most benefit by optimising that - arcs are used too rarely to be worth much development effort
  317. # [18:50] <Philip`> GPHemsley: The basic design is from about 2005, I think
  318. # [18:50] <GPHemsley> Philip`: That falls within my definition of "a few" :)
  319. # [18:50] <GPHemsley> (Although 2005 keeps getting farther and farther away....)
  320. # [18:51] <Davstern15> Arcs are integral for games, though.
  321. # [18:52] <Davstern15> And yes, I ended up pre-rendering them, but that also is very... undynamic.
  322. # [18:52] <Davstern15> Stiff, if you will.
  323. # [18:52] <Davstern15> And also was a nightmare code-wise.
  324. # [18:53] <Davstern15> I guess I cannot comprehend why it is such a problem to draw 2D stuff to a canvas speed-wise in this day and age.
  325. # [18:53] <Davstern15> Even with no optimizations.
  326. # [18:53] <Davstern15> Also, drawing text with shadows is SUPER slow.
  327. # [18:53] * Quits: Erika_Mustermann (~ident@unaffiliated/erika-mustermann/x-8069748) (Quit: argh)
  328. # [18:56] <Philip`> What you need to do is make a cool-looking benchmark that depends on all the features you care about it, and then publicise it to all the people who publish graphs of Sunspider performance every time a new browser version or new CPU comes out
  329. # [18:56] <Philip`> and then browser developers will be motivated to improve those features
  330. # [18:58] <Davstern15> Dang...
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  333. # [19:01] <annevk5> Sniffing EOT is not needed. Just treat it like any other unknown format GPHemsley
  334. # [19:01] <GPHemsley> Why?
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  337. # [19:03] <annevk5> Because it's not part of the platform
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  339. # [19:03] <annevk5> No need to support unsupported proprietary formats
  340. # [19:04] <annevk5> You only need to sniff the formats from my email. Supporting other formats would be bad for interop
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  342. # [19:06] <GPHemsley> Sniffing and supporting are separate things, though.
  343. # [19:06] <annevk5> No they are closely related
  344. # [19:07] <annevk5> Why waste code on sniffing something that must be rejected?
  345. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> To present the user with information about what kind of file it is?
  346. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> Firefox, at least, displays the MIME type in the download box
  347. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> s/box/prompt/
  348. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> IIRC
  349. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Hey, why didn't you mention that there were plans to go ahead with the 'font' type?
  350. # [19:09] * Parts: Davstern15 (Davstern15@unaffiliated/davstern15)
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  353. # [19:09] <GPHemsley> annevk5: Weren't we just discussing yesterday that we should have a list of magic numbers?
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  357. # [19:15] <GPHemsley> also, there appears to be discussion about a WOFF 2 format
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  359. # [19:25] <GPHemsley> top-level 'font': http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/115
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  361. # [19:31] <Yuhong> annevk5: I do agree that other browsers have never supported EOT, but you do want IE implementing the standard do you?
  362. # [19:33] <GPHemsley> I maintain that sniffing is not the same as supporting.
  363. # [19:34] <GPHemsley> In fact, this document says nothing about what UAs should or should not support.
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  368. # [19:40] <Yuhong> Sniffing without supporting is not very useful, but just because the formats are listed in the spec don't mean that the browser need to sniff all the formats.
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  370. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> The sole purpose of this document is to be able to properly identify a file.
  371. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> What a user agent does with that information is beyond the scope of this document.
  372. # [19:51] <GPHemsley> The barrier for inclusion in this document is whether the UA is likely to encounter such a file on the Web.
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  384. # [20:29] <zewt> doesn't sound like the right approach for a web spec; specs should specify things that determine browser behavior, not just pools of data that they might or might not use
  385. # [20:35] <GPHemsley> zewt: The behavior is deciding what kind of file something is.
  386. # [20:35] <GPHemsley> It is up to the browser to decide whether to then parse the file or to pass it off to some other software that can.
  387. # [20:37] <zewt> but it should specify only cases where browsers need the info, and there are normative requirements depending on the result
  388. # [20:40] <GPHemsley> Browsers can need the info without there being normative requirements that depend on it.
  389. # [20:41] <zewt> specs are about normative requirements
  390. # [20:41] <GPHemsley> again, the normative requirements are only regarding identifying the file
  391. # [20:42] <GPHemsley> the mimesniff spec says nothing else
  392. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> Hmm, apparently SMS encoding depends on the country you're in
  393. # [20:43] <zewt> normative requirements that aren't used normatively don't make much sense, afaik
  394. # [20:44] <GPHemsley> mimesniff defines the behavior of sniffing a file... it is up to other specs to decide how that information is used
  395. # [20:44] <GPHemsley> I don't see the issue here
  396. # [20:45] <GPHemsley> it is the first filter between the server and the rest of the browser
  397. # [20:46] <zewt> it should only define formats that other specs actually need to know about--for example, unless some spec actually cares, there's no need to say anything about .torrent files
  398. # [20:47] <Yuhong> zewt: Normative requirements can be optional.
  399. # [20:47] <GPHemsley> Yuhong: But they're not, in this case
  400. # [20:49] <GPHemsley> zewt: Are there browsers that parse postscript files?
  401. # [20:49] <zewt> having a "file type unknown to the spec with a content-type of foo" fallback is fine, it's the "include every file format that browsers might see on the web" thing that i don't like
  402. # [20:50] <zewt> (no idea)
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  404. # [20:52] <GPHemsley> Part of this spec is identifying the type of a file whose type is unknown; without these additional signatures, many files would be spit out as application/octet-stream or text/plain
  405. # [20:53] <GPHemsley> and given that there are certain types that are common on the Web that no browser actually supports, I don't think it hurts to do a little extra
  406. # [20:53] <GPHemsley> and certainly if there are some but not all browsers that support a particular type (like EOT)
  407. # [20:54] <zewt> files that are common on the web is a much larger set than files that browsers do magic file detection for
  408. # [20:55] <zewt> torrent files are common, and browsers don't sniff them; you have to either have the content-type set, or the resource's filename needs to match *.torrent, basically
  409. # [20:55] <GPHemsley> well, part of the point of this spec, too, is to get away from sniffing based on file extension
  410. # [20:55] <zewt> (maybe the latter is a subset of sniffing, but there's no peeking at the contents of the file and looking for a header)
  411. # [20:55] <zewt> ... have browser vendors agreed to do that? heh
  412. # [20:56] <GPHemsley> well, it's part of the security concerns
  413. # [20:56] <zewt> that's not specifying current behavior, that's specifying something new
  414. # [20:56] <Yuhong> Of course. Some are difficult to sniff, like docx and odt.
  415. # [20:56] <GPHemsley> Yuhong: Actually, odt is much easier than docx.
  416. # [20:56] <GPHemsley> docx is pretty much impossible
  417. # [20:56] <Yuhong> But both are based on ZIP.
  418. # [20:57] <GPHemsley> Yeah, but ODT actually makes an effort to provide a mechanism for detection.
  419. # [20:57] <Yuhong> And there are many times where they are sniffed as such and the files had to be manually renamed..
  420. # [20:57] <zewt> but have browser vendors agreed to switch from filename matching (ridiculously simple) to file content detection (much more complex, not always possible and sometimes ambiguous)?
  421. # [20:57] <GPHemsley> I have no idea what the browsers have agreed to
  422. # [20:57] <zewt> that sounds like a hard sell, so i'm just wondering if you've actually sold it :)
  423. # [20:58] <GPHemsley> I wasn't privy to any of those discussions
  424. # [20:58] <GPHemsley> if there even were any
  425. # [20:58] <Yuhong> I'd focus on moving away from filename matching for *scriptable* formats, like HTML and XML.
  426. # [20:58] <zewt> well, if you don't know whether vendors have agreed to such a big and probably risky change, then you may be wasting a bunch of effort
  427. # [20:59] <GPHemsley> why risky?
  428. # [20:59] <Yuhong> Most of the others typically have filename extensions, and scriptable formats present more of a security risk..
  429. # [20:59] <zewt> because what's deployed now works, and whatever you spec may or may not work in the real world
  430. # [21:00] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  431. # [21:00] <zewt> additionally it would interact in some unobvious way with the file type UIs that most browsers give, which tend to be based on extensions (in part because users understand extensions better than MIME types)
  432. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> the problem is, there are at least 3 different ways to identify a file, and only one of them is anywhere near reliable
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  434. # [21:02] <zewt> i don't know if i agree with that or not, but it's not really the point
  435. # [21:02] <GPHemsley> and besides, not using the file extension to determine the supplied type is one of the normative requirements of the spec
  436. # [21:03] <GPHemsley> ...although I suppose there is no restriction on using it for sniffing...
  437. # [21:03] <zewt> but you putting a normative requirement in a spec isn't going to magically make browsers agree to do it
  438. # [21:03] <GPHemsley> hmm
  439. # [21:03] <GPHemsley> zewt: Well, actually, I didn't put that one in there ;)
  440. # [21:04] <GPHemsley> remember, this spec began as basically documenting what Chrome did
  441. # [21:04] <zewt> if you drop this spec on vendors without talking to them first, i predict a response of: "wooooah slow down we're not changing something that fundamental"
  442. # [21:05] <zewt> chrome definitely uses the file extension in some cases
  443. # [21:05] <GPHemsley> yeah, IDK
  444. # [21:05] <GPHemsley> I'll have to do some investigating
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  446. # [21:05] <Yuhong> Yea, the original author was abarth.
  447. # [21:06] <zewt> (at least, when it relates to launching registered system handlers, which in windows are entirely extension-based)
  448. # [21:06] <GPHemsley> I suppose the question is where the line is drawn between what the browser does and what the OS does
  449. # [21:08] * GPHemsley shrugs
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  485. # [23:52] <annevk> GPHemsley: Firefox' download dialog is UI and therefore interoperability does not matter
  486. # [23:52] <annevk> GPHemsley: so I would not consider that a valid use case for defining EOT sniffing
  487. # [23:53] <annevk> GPHemsley: the magic number list is only for formats that are actually part of what we want interoperability for and what we want developers to use
  488. # [23:54] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: As Ms2ger said, plan is to use 3to2 and have Py3 as the main copy (mainly because there's enough gnarly Unicode/bytes frontieers as to make it important to get those right and keep them right, which Py3 enforces)
  489. # [23:54] <annevk> GPHemsley: and in particular for format identifiers not documented in MIME sniffing, such as WEBVTT and CACHE MANIFEST
  490. # [23:55] <annevk> Yuhong: I want IE to drop support for EOT in the end
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  493. # Session Close: Mon Nov 19 00:00:00 2012

The end :)