/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-20 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 20 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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6. # [00:01] <heycam> TabAtkins, it does seem a bit funny to subclass Map only to not use its Mapness, but to have a hidden Map instance that it forwards calls to though
7. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> If JS had a better way to type-check (or rather, interface-check), I'd advocate that, instead of overloading subclassing to achieve it. :/
8. # [00:02] * TabAtkins is partial to branding with Symbols.
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10. # [00:03] <heycam> yeah it's kind of a hack to inherit from Map just to make your own object look like a Map
11. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> We should probably ping es-discuss explicitly about this, actually.
12. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> So we're not just making decisions based on what I think is best.
13. # [00:05] <heycam> :)
14. # [00:05] * TabAtkins goes to do it.
15. # [00:05] <heycam> cool
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18. # [00:12] <zewt> duck typing tends to make more sense than actual inheritance, unless the interface is actually meant as a base class
19. # [00:13] <zewt> i guess that depends on whether you care about having messing around with the prototype of Map work here too
20. # [00:13] <Hixie> heycam: so Location has a bunch of members that need to be [Unforgeable], but Anne is planning on providing me an interface that I am to import using "Location implements ..." that also need to be unforgeable.
21. # [00:13] <Hixie> heycam: do you wish to support this natively in webidl or should we just put the annotation on each attribute?
22. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> zewt: Yeah, that's what I'm typing up in this question to es-discuss.
23. # [00:14] <heycam> Hixie, so all the members on this imported interface are unforgeable? or just some?
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25. # [00:14] <heycam> Hixie, and are they meant to be unforgeable on one object but not another?
26. # [00:16] <Hixie> yeah, they'll be forgeable on HTMLAnchorElement
27. # [00:16] <Hixie> annevk: ^
28. # [00:16] <Hixie> annevk: are they all unforgeable?
29. # [00:17] <heycam> Hixie, so maybe you need a way on the implements statement to indicate which (or that all) of them are unforgeable
30. # [00:17] <heycam> [Unforgeable] Location implements Blah; or [Unforgeable=foo1,foo2] Location implements Blah;
31. # [00:17] <Hixie> could do that, yeah
32. # [00:18] <annevk> Hixie: I thought there was some requirement for them to all be unforgeable?
33. # [00:18] <annevk> Hixie: but I don't know the specifics
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35. # [00:19] <Hixie> ok let's assume it's all of them
36. # [00:19] <Hixie> and all on Location, too
37. # [00:19] <Hixie> as well as valueOf
38. # [00:19] <annevk> TabAtkins: URLQuery has get/getAll(), might want add(), and set() does something special with the value
39. # [00:19] <heycam> if that's the case then we could just stick [Unforgeable] on interface Location and make that mean all its members are, even if they're from an "implements"
40. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> heycam: Sent the email.
41. # [00:19] <Hixie> heycam: i think it'd be better to just have it on the Location interface and have it mean that everything is unforgeable, including any "implements"-imported members
42. # [00:19] <heycam> TabAtkins, great!
43. # [00:19] <Hixie> heycam: right
44. # [00:20] <heycam> :)
45. # [00:20] <Hixie> heycam: ok
46. # [00:20] <Hixie> heycam: i'll assume that then. thanks. :-)
47. # [00:20] <heycam> Hixie, there are still other attribute-specific [Unforgeable] things yes?
48. # [00:20] <annevk> TabAtkins: get/getAll() probably need to do something special with the argument too
49. # [00:20] <heycam> so we can't get rid of that?
50. # [00:20] <Hixie> heycam: yeah, e.g. in particular Document.location :-)
51. # [00:20] <heycam> ha yes ok :)
52. # [00:20] <annevk> TabAtkins: to deal with percent-encoding and such
53. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, whatever we do for set() should have similar implications for the other methods.
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55. # [00:21] <annevk> TabAtkins: I just wonder what the benefit is of it being a subclass at that point
56. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> The fact that it massages its inputs doesn't change the fact that it acts just like a Map, and most generic Map-manipulating functions would be able to use it without trouble.
57. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> And if that's the case, you want it to be reasonably robust against type-checking.
58. # [00:22] <annevk> doesn't the get/getAll thing make it not like a map?
59. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Nope, if you interact solely through the Map methods, it's just like a normal Map.
60. # [00:23] <annevk> and that the underlying string is an ordered list of key/value pairs which can have duplicate keys?
61. # [00:23] <annevk> the duplicate keys are significant
62. # [00:23] <heycam> Hixie, do we have anything currently that requires toString and/or valueOf to be unforgeable on Location?
63. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, that's fine. Generic Map-manipulating functions will probably not see the duplicate entries, but that's okay.
64. # [00:25] <annevk> then they can't handle typical <form> scenarios...
65. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> annevk: That's fine. No duplicate keys is also common, after all. It's fine to have some cases fail when passed to generic code.
66. # [00:26] <annevk> I see
67. # [00:26] <annevk> well, heycam, still want that email?
68. # [00:26] <annevk> I guess you do
69. # [00:26] * annevk will write it later
70. # [00:26] <heycam> yeah. thanks.
71. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Hopefully ES will sprout a core MultiMap soonish (after impls get Map implemented), so URLQuery can change to being that instead.
72. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> (with MultiMap being a subclass of Map)
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74. # [00:29] <heycam> Hixie, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20008 for the [Unforgeable] thing
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82. # [00:39] <annevk> heycam: fwiw, you already reached that conclusion before: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012JulSep/0153.html
83. # [00:39] <heycam> man what a short memory I have
84. # [00:39] <heycam> but a consistent one at least? :)
85. # [00:40] <annevk> I think that's why I never replied to that thread to say we need it for URLUtils
86. # [00:40] <annevk> heycam: hopefully this time it ends up in the spec :p
87. # [00:41] <heycam> yeah. unfortunately I don't have a page like Hixie's showing which mails to the list I've dealt with yet. (although I would reply on the thread when I have...)
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90. # [00:46] <Hixie> heycam: you mean does the spec say that yes? if so, not to my knowledge.
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92. # [00:46] <Hixie> s/yes/yet/
93. # [00:46] <heycam> Hixie, ok. seems in that mail annevk linked to I already said that should be implied by [Unforgeable] on the interface.
94. # [00:47] <Hixie> annevk: that time, heycam thought he'd be able to remove the one on members as well
95. # [00:47] <Hixie> annevk: this time, we're talking about just adding a new feature, leaving the old one
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124. # [02:02] <Hixie> wow there is really no freaking interop between browsers on Location
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128. # [02:06] <Hixie> wow, IE actually lets you detect which properties are on another origin's Location object
129. # [02:06] <heycam> that sounds bad
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131. # [02:08] <Hixie> parent.location instanceof Location => false in IE, true in Gecko, false in Opera, and there's no Location object in WebKit.
132. # [02:08] <heycam> should be false in Gecko once Location is implemented with new Web IDL bindings
133. # [02:09] <Hixie> Location.test = 1; w(parent.location instanceof Location); w(Location.test); w(parent.location.test) => true, 1, undefined in Gecko
134. # [02:09] <Hixie> wtf Gecko
135. # [02:10] <Hixie> wait, i'm on crack
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137. # [02:10] <Hixie> i should have been doing Location.prototype.test = 1
138. # [02:10] <Hixie> and gecko throws if i do that...
139. # [02:10] <heycam> hmm
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154. # [02:54] <Hixie> abarth: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83493#c20
155. # [02:55] <abarth> Hixie: hi
156. # [02:56] <Hixie> abarth: haven't yet paged in the details here but that bug has a question for you
157. # [02:56] <abarth> Hixie: answered
158. # [02:56] <Hixie> cool
159. # [02:56] <Hixie> thanks
160. # [02:56] <Hixie> anything to report on ancestorOrigins btw? did it work out as expected?
161. # [02:57] <abarth> yes, the people for whom it solves a problem are very happy with it
162. # [02:57] <abarth> it certainly doesn't solve every problem though
163. # [02:58] <abarth> the main people who like it are people who write widgets
164. # [02:58] <abarth> and want to know something about their embedded context
165. # [02:58] <Hixie> cool
166. # [02:58] <Hixie> do you know of any implementation in other UAs?
167. # [02:58] <Hixie> annevk: you around?
168. # [02:58] <abarth> I don't know of any
169. # [02:59] <abarth> in other user agents, you can try to access things and catch security exceptions
170. # [02:59] <abarth> so there's less of a need
171. # [02:59] <abarth> but that doesn't help with the clickjacking use cases
172. # [02:59] <Hixie> oh, why doesn't that work in webkit?
173. # [02:59] <abarth> WebKit doesn't throw exceptions for security errors
174. # [03:00] <abarth> in some cases
175. # [03:00] <abarth> and it logs to the console when there is a security error
176. # [03:00] <abarth> the widget authors don't like the console spam
177. # [03:00] <abarth> because people who embed the widgets complain about it
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180. # [03:02] <Hixie> oh
181. # [03:02] <Hixie> why not fire an exception?
182. # [03:02] <abarth> two reasons:
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184. # [03:02] <abarth> 1) we're worried about breaking content that doesn't expect the exception
185. # [03:03] <abarth> 2) othermaciej is concerned about making it too easy to probe whether security checks will pass or fail
186. # [03:03] <abarth> (i'm not really sold on (2), so I might not be explaining it the most clearly)
187. # [03:04] <abarth> i've got to run
188. # [03:04] <Hixie> laer
189. # [03:04] <abarth> l8r
190. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> Damn punk kids and your txt spk
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203. # [03:40] <othermaciej> abarth: I am not all that concerned about it, certainly not enough to outweigh any actual pragmatic benefit in a given case if there is one
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212. # [03:52] <Hixie> abarth: ok so looks like ancestorOrigins in webkit uses a DOMStringList, and isn't blocked by sandboxing, is that right?
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216. # [03:55] <abarth> othermaciej: oh, maybe I misunderstood the earlier discussion. sounds like (1) is the main issue then
217. # [03:55] <abarth> Hixie: yes
218. # [03:55] <othermaciej> abarth: I don't know what you mean by "the earlier discussion"
219. # [03:56] <othermaciej> abarth: I personally do think it is a bad idea to return informative exceptions to the caller when a security violation occurs, but not enough to fight the weight of other implementations, or what have you
220. # [03:56] <abarth> its from a message you wrote on Aug 13, 2010
221. # [03:56] <abarth> let me find the link
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223. # [03:57] <abarth> http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-August/013883.html
224. # [03:58] <abarth> sounds like you weren't overly concerned then either
225. # [03:58] <abarth> but just raising it as a possible issue
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271. # [06:46] <Hixie> in webkit, does securityOrigin()->toString() return a unicode origin or an ascii origin?
272. # [06:48] <Hixie> (abarth?)
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306. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I looked at the sources myself to try to figure out but can't tell from that either
307. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebCore/platform/SecurityOrigin.h?rev=30184
308. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> I can't tell from that at least
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315. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: question about the outline algorithm behavior for the case of <hgroup>foo <h1>bar</h1> <h2>baz</h2></hgroup>
316. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> it's not clear to me what the spec says should be the heading that goes into the outline for that
317. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> all the implementations of the outline algorithm I've tried use just "bar"
318. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> but I don't see where the spec requires that instead of using "foo"
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321. # [08:22] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the heading is "foo" with subheading "bar"
322. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> aha
323. # [08:22] <Hixie> oh wait
324. # [08:23] <Hixie> i misread your example
325. # [08:23] <Hixie> it's bar with subheading baz
326. # [08:23] <Hixie> the foo is bogus
327. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> ok
328. # [08:23] <Hixie> hopefully the spec actually agrees
329. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> I can't tell that it does actually
330. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> will file a bug
331. # [08:25] <Hixie> outline algorithm says the hgroup is the heading, right?
332. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> yeah
333. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> that part's clear
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335. # [08:26] <JonathanNeal> hgroup can't contain anything that isn't a <h1-6>.
336. # [08:27] <JonathanNeal> That's why us <subline>rs were rabble rousing.
337. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: it can contain them in the DOM
338. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> I realize it's not valid
339. # [08:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ok so if hgroup is the heading, then the question is just what does the hgroup represent
340. # [08:29] <Hixie> ...which i guess is indeed rather vague
341. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> ah damn
342. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> I think it might be clear
343. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#headings-and-sections
344. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> "The first element of heading content in an element of sectioning content represents the heading for that section."
345. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> oh no sorry
346. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> not that
347. # [08:30] <Hixie> right that's just saying the hgroup is the heading
348. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> yup
349. # [08:30] <JonathanNeal> rah rah <hgroup> poorly thought out rah rah <subline> solves all problems rah rah rahn paul rah
350. # [08:35] <JonathanNeal> rah rah clear up :heading(n) confusion, reduce ambiguity of headings, spend more time solving issue of multiple subheadings of different weights.
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353. # [08:36] <Hixie> (in other news, i hate document.domain)
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356. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: recent changes and subsequent bz bugs?
357. # [08:40] <Hixie> everything around the effective script origin crap
358. # [08:40] <Hixie> worst security design ever
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366. # [08:55] <Hixie> someone really should review the HTML spec's security stuff, I'm sure I have all kinds of bugs where I talk about the origin (should it be effective origin) of scripts (first script? calling script?)
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370. # [09:04] <pottersson> Does anyone know where I can download a copy of the WHATWG spec for HTML5?
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372. # [09:06] <Hixie> wow, he didn't stick around long
373. # [09:09] <zcorpan> annevk: do you know what ie does with % in host?
374. # [09:11] <Hixie> zcorpan: any idea where sigbjoern got the idea of commas in CORE-35269?
375. # [09:12] <Hixie> zcorpan: it seems to contradict the data in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18228
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377. # [09:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: i guess he looked at the URL in the bug, saw that it worked in firefox and webkit but not in opera, didn't test IE and didn't research other content
378. # [09:15] <Hixie> the url doesn't use a comma
379. # [09:16] <Hixie> and never did, per the comments
380. # [09:16] <zcorpan> CORE-40846 does though
381. # [09:17] <Hixie> i can't get to that url
382. # [09:18] <Hixie> so can't check
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387. # [09:19] <zcorpan> url for that is https://bespin.mozillalabs.com/
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390. # [09:19] <zcorpan> http://code.google.com/codesearch#search/&q=%3Cmeta%5Cs%2Bhttp%5C-equiv%5C=%5C%22refresh%5C%22%5Cs%2Bcontent%5C=%5C%22%5Cd%2B%5C,&type=cs
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393. # [09:20] <Hixie> zcorpan: right, that url doesn't work for me
394. # [09:21] <zcorpan> ah.
395. # [09:22] <zcorpan> i don't have a login either
396. # [09:22] <Hixie> that second link is good though, i've reopened the bug for it
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398. # [09:25] <Hixie> ok, bed time. nn.
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400. # [09:27] <zcorpan> nn
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409. # [09:47] <zcorpan> i guess the html spec is full of things that can be changed to webidl enums
410. # [09:49] <Ms2ger> There are a number in canvas, at least
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421. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> so http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/ no has an experimental "Show outline" feature
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423. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> implemented in JavaScript, using h5o
424. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> so you can do, e.g., http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/&showoutline=yes
425. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> or http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/&showoutline=yes#outline to go straight to the outline
426. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> and a separate feature at http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/outline/?doc=http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/ that generates the outline on the server side
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428. # [10:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: why isn't the server-side thing used for the validator?
429. # [10:25] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: can you flip the order of the outline and source checkboxes so they match the output?
430. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> yeah can flip that
431. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> and the I'm not using the server-side one directly yet is that it's harder to integrate on the server side
432. # [10:28] <zcorpan> ok
433. # [10:28] <zcorpan> looks nice!
434. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> thanks
435. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> also I'm more suspicious of the server-side code
436. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> I didn't write it
437. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> well, not most of it
438. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> but I may have already spent more time rewriting it than it would have taken me to write it myself from scratch
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440. # [10:34] <jgraham> "01:36 < MikeSmith> Hixie: recent changes and subsequent bz bugs?" - I literally have no idea if that's bz as-in "Bugzilla" or "Boris"
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443. # [10:35] <abarth> Hixie: I think ascii, but you should check
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445. # [10:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: i haven't seen bugzilla abbreviated to bz
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455. # [10:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: They talk about the bzapi
456. # [10:50] <jgraham> Which I don't think is for controlling Boris
457. # [10:50] <zcorpan> oh
458. # [10:51] <zcorpan> well you never know. I'm not convinced Boris is human.
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460. # [10:51] <jgraham> Indeed
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464. # [10:54] * Ms2ger denies everything
465. # [10:59] <jgraham> In unrelated news, tobie added something to testharness.js that required the use of ancestorOrigins in WebKit to avoid meaningless console spam. I don't think "happy with it" is quite accurate; it was horrible to have to make this workaround and the API wasn't a great fit. (See https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/commit/e1918cae6e743247ad58842aae58196b229101c6#L0R2029 )
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467. # [11:01] <annevk> zcorpan: no
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472. # [11:05] <zcorpan> if ancestorOrigins exists because webkit doesn't throw on cross-origin access, i see little reason for other browsers to implement it
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474. # [11:07] <odinho> jgraham: All that strange code was added to testharness, -- is there some timeout where we can remove it again if it's not being used for these hypotetichal web services that'll gather results?
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476. # [11:22] <jgraham> I thought there was some use case that wasn't tied to the deficiencies of WebKit
477. # [11:25] <zcorpan> there are use cases for getting your origin, but that's addressed by http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-url-origin AFAICT
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479. # [11:26] <zcorpan> if there's a use case for knowing that you're in a cross-origin sandbox, i've probably missed it
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483. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> me sees lots of heycam|away code arriving for style@scoped
484. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=508725#attachment_table
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487. # [11:51] <jgraham> zcorpan: I think the use case was something like widgets wanting to behave differently in same-origin vs different origin cases?
488. # [11:51] <jgraham> In unrelated news, it seems that the postMessage change to testharness.js broke stuff
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491. # [11:53] <zcorpan> heycam|away: ideas for tests: style scoped as root element, style scoped with svg parent, in head, as child of the root, in quirks mode, changing scopedness and textContent in a timeout (not sure if onload happens after layout)
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493. # [11:54] <zcorpan> heycam|away: check CSSOM stuff together with scoped
494. # [11:55] <zcorpan> heycam|away: interaction with !important
495. # [11:55] <zcorpan> oh there were a couple of tests with !important
496. # [11:57] <darobin> jgraham: you mean tobie's patch?
497. # [11:57] <zcorpan> heycam|away: moving a style scoped element to another document
498. # [11:57] <jgraham> darobin: Yes
499. # [11:58] <jgraham> In particular tests that postMessage results from one frame/window to another will now get confused by extra messages coming from the harness
500. # [11:59] <jgraham> As I said on #testing, I think the right solution is probably just not to postMessage on the document with testharness included but only on ancestors
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502. # [12:02] <annevk> I guess today I should tackle percent-encoded bytes :/
503. # [12:04] <darobin> jgraham: mmmm, I reckon that actually makes sense yes
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505. # [12:11] <zcorpan> annevk: option 1 without the weirdness seems like the least insane option, though i'd be happy with 2
506. # [12:12] <annevk> zcorpan: I think we need 2, and that means either deferring to Unicode for valid utf-8 sequence or defining it in Encoding (either way is pretty simple though)
507. # [12:12] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
508. # [12:12] <zcorpan> annevk: why do we need 2?
509. # [12:13] <annevk> zcorpan: in particular 2 is likely needed for UI anyway, and if we need it there we might as well use it for a slightly better result
510. # [12:13] <zcorpan> ok
511. # [12:14] <zcorpan> annevk: isn't valid utf-8 sequence implicitly defined in Encoding as part of the decode algorithm?
512. # [12:14] <annevk> although I guess the result is not that much better... if you really tried to put bytes higher than 0x7F over DNS you could not use this system anyway
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514. # [12:15] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah it is
515. # [12:15] <annevk> zcorpan: seems nicer to give something to pattern match against though, but maybe you'd use the decoder for that anyway
516. # [12:16] <annevk> maybe I should go with what Chrome has first and see if people complain...
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534. # [13:05] <SimonSapin> was colspan="0" removed in html?
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536. # [13:07] <annevk> "For the purposes of the CSS table model, the colspan and rowspan attributes on td and th elements are expected to provide the special knowledge regarding cells spanning rows and columns."
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539. # [13:08] <annevk> SimonSapin: and within the HTML table model it seems 0 and 1 are equivalent
540. # [13:08] <zcorpan> i thought 0 was supported in one of rowspan or colspan
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542. # [13:10] <annevk> SimonSapin: oh, and it must be non-zero as conformance requirement
543. # [13:10] <annevk> zcorpan: prolly rowspan then
544. # [13:12] <odinho> I remember hearing implementations differ on it :-)
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546. # [13:13] <zcorpan> yeah. and gecko does (or did?) different things in quirks and non-quirks, iirc
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551. # [13:24] <SimonSapin> MDN documents colspan=0 as "extends until the end of the <colgroup>"
552. # [13:25] <SimonSapin> which is the definition in html4
553. # [13:26] <SimonSapin> (and is also what I want to do)
554. # [13:26] <annevk> SimonSapin: what do implementations do?
555. # [13:26] <SimonSapin> don’t know
556. # [13:26] <SimonSapin> let me try
557. # [13:27] <SimonSapin> 0 is the same as 1 in Opera and Chromium; as in HTML4 in Firefox
558. # [13:29] <annevk> and IE?
559. # [13:29] <SimonSapin> I don’t have it available right now
560. # [13:30] <annevk> be sure to test soon, HTML WG might declare consensus based on Opera/Chromium
561. # [13:30] <annevk> and then... well nothing really
562. # [13:30] <annevk> it's not like previous W3C RECs withstood the test of time
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564. # [13:32] <annevk> I kinda wish IDL had a participate box
565. # [13:34] <SimonSapin> Here is a test case, if someone wants to test in IE : http://dabblet.com/gist/4117646
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569. # [13:54] <annevk> SimonSapin: IE9 I get the same as in Opera
570. # [13:54] <annevk> SimonSapin: using http://netrenderer.com/ anyway
571. # [13:58] <SimonSapin> annevk: treating colspan="0" like 1 is what is specified in HTML now, so no problem here
572. # [13:58] <SimonSapin> But I’d still like to achieve the functionality
573. # [13:59] <SimonSapin> huge values like colspan="999999" are to be ignored sometimes, colspan="99" seems to be ok
574. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> I believe anything over a thousand or so is set to 1
575. # [14:00] <SimonSapin> apparently
576. # [14:00] <annevk> SimonSapin: do you want this for hand authoring tables?
577. # [14:01] <SimonSapin> yes
578. # [14:01] <annevk> http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-encoding-get uses rowspan, but it's just computed in Python
579. # [14:01] <annevk> I guess it would be kinda nice if I didn't have to do that
580. # [14:01] <SimonSapin> I know the table currently has 5 columns so I can use colspan="5", but it’s been 4 and then 6 in the past hour before I changed my mind
581. # [14:04] <SimonSapin> rowspan="0" is still supported
582. # [14:04] <SimonSapin> at least in the spec
583. # [14:04] <annevk> does that do what I need?
584. # [14:04] <SimonSapin> yes
585. # [14:04] <annevk> oh
586. # [14:04] <annevk> :)
587. # [14:04] <annevk> well maybe I'll replace that len(...) with 0 at some point
588. # [14:05] <SimonSapin> and add some <tbody>s
589. # [14:05] <annevk> oh you need <tbody>?
590. # [14:05] <annevk> it uses <tbody> already for something
591. # [14:06] <SimonSapin> "if its value is set to 0, it extends until the end of the table section (<thead>, <tbody>, <tfoot>, even if implicitly defined), that the cell belongs to."
592. # [14:06] <annevk> ah so it wouldn't work
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596. # [14:13] <marcosc_> does anyone know if there is any practical difference between HTML's algorithm for parsing floats and ECMAScript's parseFloat()?
597. # [14:16] <jgraham> Don't they disagree about scientific notation?
598. # [14:17] <jgraham> 1.2e7 and so on?
599. # [14:17] * jgraham didn't check
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601. # [14:21] <marcosc_> jgraham: yeah, that's what I'm wondering... but for most common cases I guess they are functionally the same (i.e., for parsing the value some attribute)
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604. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> marcosc_, yep, agree in the common case and disagree if you try
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609. # [14:33] * marcosc_ lazy, just wants to use parseFloat() for prototyping in a small parser
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611. # [14:34] <darobin> marcosc_: don't be a baby and go write a JS version of the HTML5 algo
612. # [14:34] <darobin> then we can run coverage tools on that to see if we're testing it properly ;)
613. # [14:35] <marcosc_> tools. will. save.
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615. # [14:35] <annevk> wasn't it the case that implementations used the JS algo?
616. # [14:35] * annevk forgot the details
617. # [14:35] <Ms2ger> No
618. # [14:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: what was the thing AryehGregor pointed out then?
619. # [14:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: had something to do with number parsing too I believe
620. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> Hmm? I think Aryeh suggested changing spec and implementations to use the JS algorithm instead
621. # [14:43] <annevk> there were at least some implementations on his side
622. # [14:43] <annevk> iirc
623. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> Hmm
624. # [14:43] <marcosc_> would be nice to have a single algo instead of two
625. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> Was that about negative zero, maybe?
626. # [14:44] <annevk> maybe it was floating point precision?
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629. # [14:44] <annevk> ooh, and maybe JS whitespace versus HTML whitespace
630. # [14:44] <annevk> stuff like that
631. # [14:45] * marcosc_ checks if he implemented the JS one
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633. # [14:45] <marcosc_> hmm... nope
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642. # [14:58] <annevk> heh
643. # [14:58] <annevk> open DragonFly, > document.location.host="x"
644. # [14:58] <annevk> hit cmd+back
645. # [14:58] <annevk> crash
646. # [14:59] <annevk> in Chrome if you do that a few times you end up at data:text/html,chromewebdata
647. # [14:59] <annevk> Gecko just throws
648. # [15:00] <annevk> Film at 11?
649. # [15:00] <annevk> maybe there's something to be said for making Location members both Unforgeable and readonly
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658. # [15:15] <marcosc_> Hixie: I think there might be a mistake in the img@srcset parsing algorithm. In the "Descriptor parser:", where it says "If width is *not* absent, then let error be yes". But if a value is not absent and is valid, then it's not in error. When I follow the algorithm, I can't build the entry list with valid candidate entries. Note this also applies to height, and density. Or am I missing something?
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661. # [15:18] <annevk> width can only be not absent at that point if it's double
662. # [15:18] <annevk> duplicated*
663. # [15:19] <annevk> marcosc_: so you're missing something I think
664. # [15:25] <marcosc_> annevk: to me that reads "if the width exists, then error = yes "
665. # [15:25] <annevk> marcosc_: you're not reading it correctly then
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669. # [15:26] <annevk> marcosc_: it explicitly says to split the list on spaces, then to set various variables, including width to absent
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671. # [15:26] <annevk> marcosc_: then it says to process what you just split
672. # [15:26] <annevk> marcosc_: if you start with the first token in what you just split, width is obviously still absent
673. # [15:26] <annevk> marcosc_: simple English...
674. # [15:27] <marcosc_> if it was simple English, we would not be having this discussion (i.e., please refrain from passably insulting me :) )
675. # [15:28] <annevk> I'm saying it simple English because people have a tendency to read stuff into specifications that are not there
676. # [15:28] <marcosc_> annevk: let me show you a 1 to 1 with code
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678. # [15:30] <marcosc_> annevk: https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-refimp/blob/master/srcsetfill.js#L369
679. # [15:31] <annevk> yeah you're code is not doing what the English says
680. # [15:31] <annevk> you need if(!width) error = 'yes';
681. # [15:31] <annevk> or if (width == undefined) if you want to be more careful
682. # [15:32] <annevk> your code, oh god
683. # [15:32] <marcosc_> what's wrong with it?
684. # [15:32] <annevk> I just told you?
685. # [15:32] <marcosc_> right, but then you said "oh god"
686. # [15:32] <annevk> because I made a typo
687. # [15:33] <annevk> in spelling "your"
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689. # [15:36] <annevk> marcosc_: code looks well documented :)
690. # [15:37] <marcosc_> annevk: I tried to keep the code 1.1 with the spec
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692. # [15:39] <marcosc_> annevk: but yes, I f'ed up it seems by using undefined instead of "absent"
693. # [15:40] <annevk> euh no
694. # [15:40] <annevk> using undefined is fine, you just didn't check for it
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697. # [15:53] <zcorpan> marcosc_: typo? ulr: rawCandidates[i].url,
698. # [15:54] <marcosc_> zcorpan: thanks
699. # [15:54] * marcosc_ debugging at the moment, first time I've managed to run the code
700. # [15:56] <zcorpan> marcosc_: i hear from people who know js better than me that delete should be avoided
701. # [15:56] <marcosc_> zcorpan: what's a good alternative?
702. # [15:56] <marcosc_> just copy into new array?
703. # [15:57] <zewt> github's javascript syntax coloring is the worst
704. # [15:57] <zewt> grey on white is not okay
705. # [15:58] <marcosc_> zewt: yeah, agree
706. # [15:58] <zewt> zcorpan: well, presumably only if it's a hot code path; if not, that seems like premature optimization
707. # [16:00] <jgraham> Right, I think I might make candidates a map and have a bool indicating whether it should be considered or not, but that might not be better
708. # [16:00] <zewt> (not necessarily in the "making code more complicated by optimizing it" sense, but in the "thinking about performance in places where it doesn't matter" sense)
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710. # [16:01] <jgraham> Oh, so it is sort of a map already
711. # [16:01] <jgraham> But yeah, this seems like it could be premature optimisation
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713. # [16:03] <annevk> marcosc_: so I would make error a boolean and use undefined or some such for the others...
714. # [16:03] <marcosc_> annevk: ok, I'll add that
715. # [16:03] <annevk> marcosc_: though I suppose that only matters if you want to make this a little faster
716. # [16:03] <zewt> later, work
717. # [16:04] <marcosc_> annevk: right now, I just want to make sure it's running as spec'ed... then I can optimize it. There is _a lot_ of redundancy in the spec (which is good for legibility and all that)
718. # [16:04] <annevk> marcosc_: also, you check height after you set it...
719. # [16:04] <annevk> marcosc_: which doesn't match the spec
720. # [16:05] <marcosc_> annevk: you are looking at the latest version?
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722. # [16:05] * marcosc_ just checked in an update
723. # [16:06] <zcorpan> this isn't about optimization. this is about not having to worry that farre will find your code, haunt you down and kill you slower than delete is slow.
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725. # [16:07] <marcosc_> :)
726. # [16:07] <Ms2ger> Pseudonymity is useful in such cases :)
727. # [16:07] <annevk> marcosc_: yes?
728. # [16:07] <jgraham> Ms2ger: He might just kill everyone that can't prove they aren't you
729. # [16:07] <marcosc_> that makes sense, I don't want to die.
730. # [16:08] <marcosc_> annevk, ok, fixing
731. # [16:08] <annevk> marcosc_: unless your latest commit is not "fixed typo and bug" and you fixed that
732. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I'd just ask him if he can prove he isn't me :)
733. # [16:10] <marcosc_> annevk: thanks, well spotted.
734. # [16:10] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Well now he has a good way to tell if it is you or not
735. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> So if he wouldn't ask himself... I give up
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741. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> Is http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/ the canonical?
742. # [16:25] <annevk> think so
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752. # [17:02] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/11/github-whatwg
753. # [17:02] <annevk> wasn't quite sure what else to write down
754. # [17:02] <annevk> in the process of writing that I found http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/11/whatwg-is-alive again which is kinda amusing
755. # [17:03] <annevk> "There could be a place for what you call HTML 5.0 but it needs to be submitted to a standards body and approved by them once it is finished before we can start using it."
756. # [17:03] <marcosc_> annevk: are you allowing people to file bugs on GH?
757. # [17:03] <marcosc_> (i see that is currently enabled)
758. # [17:03] <annevk> marcosc_: it's only enabled for whatwg/javascript I think
759. # [17:04] <marcosc_> annevk: https://github.com/whatwg/xref/issues
760. # [17:04] <darobin> "you can't rely on HTML alone these days"
761. # [17:05] <darobin> shorter annevk: "in the Netherlands, we don't need your stinky document conformance criteria"
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764. # [17:06] <marcosc_> "Pardon me for not seeing the point of HTML5.0. I see XHTML as the rightful heir of HTML."
765. # [17:06] <marcosc_> heh
766. # [17:07] <annevk> marcosc_: I guess I haven't disabled it for that one, but that should prolly stay there as there's no alternative
767. # [17:07] <annevk> marcosc_: though I'll close the wiki, thanks
768. # [17:07] <jgraham> In related news, I see myself as the rightful heir of Arthur, legendary king of England
769. # [17:08] <darobin> annevk: reckon HTML might move to GH at some point?
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772. # [17:09] <annevk> darobin: my magic eight ball says no
773. # [17:09] <jgraham> darobin: Good luck convincing Hixie of that
774. # [17:09] <darobin> oh, I wasn't planning on trying to convince anyone — just curious
775. # [17:09] <annevk> darobin: only thing I considered was setting up a mirror, but wasn't sure what the use would be
776. # [17:10] <darobin> the W3C repo has a git-happy copy anyway
777. # [17:10] <darobin> annevk: a copy would only make sense if you plan on taking pull requests there
778. # [17:10] <darobin> and I'm guessing that's not really the spirit
779. # [17:11] <annevk> darobin: it is the spirit for many of the stuff WHATWG writes these days, but Hixie has a different preference
780. # [17:11] <darobin> I know, I know, as I said I was just curious
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782. # [17:13] <annevk> fair enough, I thought of actually mentioning it in the blog post, but explaining that took too much text, but now I wrote all these lines maybe I should have done it :)
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784. # [17:14] <darobin> hahaha
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793. # [17:20] <annevk> darobin: so https://github.com/w3c/html/commits/feature/whatwg is your WHATWG copy right?
794. # [17:21] <annevk> seems to match the commits in any case
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797. # [17:25] <darobin> annevk: yeah, that should be it
798. # [17:25] <darobin> there are further branches that are subsets of that
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800. # [17:25] <darobin> I don't know how often it's updated, I think hourly or so
801. # [17:25] <darobin> at any rate it's never far behind
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829. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> heycam|away: Re <style scoped>, the effects on the cascade are now well-defined in the Cascade spec. Please either match it or file bugs on us with arguments to change. ^_^
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841. # [18:27] <GPHemsley> Argh, Apache. Why you gotta be so frustrating?
842. # [18:33] <GPHemsley> There is apparently no way to turn off Apache's type-detection-by-file-extension behavior.
843. # [18:34] <GPHemsley> oh! maybe I spoke right too soon!
844. # [18:37] <GPHemsley> ahh... :)
845. # [18:37] <GPHemsley> so simple: RemoveType
846. # [18:37] <GPHemsley> (but off in another part of the docs)
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849. # [18:38] <annevk> don't use a file extension?
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851. # [18:39] <GPHemsley> annevk: I'm testing whether browsers assume anything from it.
852. # [18:42] <matjas> annevk: can haz link to the javascript spec on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/?
853. # [18:42] <annevk> matjas: Hixie can arrange that
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857. # [18:46] <GPHemsley> oh, hmm...
858. # [18:46] <GPHemsley> I'm realizing now that I'm not testing any mismatches
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860. # [18:47] <_divya> matjas: are you an editor these days?!
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862. # [18:48] <annevk> _divya: uhuh, when do you start?
863. # [18:48] <matjas> _divya: i’ve been working on that spec occasionally since August or so
864. # [18:48] <matjas> _divya: anyone can become an editor! http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/11/github-whatwg :)
865. # [18:49] <_divya> annevk: i only gossip about specs.
866. # [18:49] <_divya> who wants to do the hard work
867. # [18:49] <matjas> haha
868. # [18:49] <_divya> matjas: very nice!! I want to say congratulations but unsure of what the official stance of whatwg/w3c is
869. # [18:49] <annevk> heh, I wish we had weekly gossip magazines about specs, that'd be great
870. # [18:49] <_divya> isnt that w3cmemes annevk?
871. # [18:49] <annevk> only @mattur is left I think
872. # [18:49] <_divya> ahahaha
873. # [18:49] <_divya> yes
874. # [18:49] <annevk> ah yeah @w3cmemes is there
875. # [18:49] <_divya> and steve faulkner
876. # [18:50] <annevk> no more mr last week
877. # [18:50] <_divya> that was a bit weird
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879. # [18:51] <annevk> and there's the occasional culture clash
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910. # [19:46] <annevk> TabAtkins: I think TC39 reads public-script-coord, but we'll see
911. # [19:46] <[tm]> speaking of culture clashes, i normally disagree with pretty much everything Great Leader Roy says, but in pretty much every discussion about DNT, dude is speaking the gospel truth
912. # [19:46] <annevk> TabAtkins: that was sort of my idea behind posting it there
913. # [19:46] <[tm]> e.g., http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Nov/0290.html
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916. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> [tm], damn gray, black&white is much easier
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918. # [19:48] <[tm]> Heh
919. # [19:49] <[tm]> yeah
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921. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> annevk: kk
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923. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> annevk: Alex Russell makes the point that we might not need to really do the stringifying eagerly in this case - we can wait and do it upon requesting things instead. Thoughts?
924. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> (This isn't a general argument - there are definitely cases where you need the values to be eagerly checked/converted.)
925. # [19:52] <annevk> that doesn't work, you directly manipulate the URL
926. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> Ah, yeah.
927. # [19:52] <annevk> and even if you did set a string, it needs to be further converted
928. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> Okay, that's what I thought.
929. # [19:53] <annevk> e.g. lone surrogates need to be replaced with U+FFFD, "&" needs to be escaped, etc.
930. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Cool, thanks, I'll argue appropriately.
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934. # [20:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: seems you might also have to argue with TC39
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936. # [20:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: also, I'm not sure I want to wait for ES7 before getting this in browsers; I was actually hoping to have this specced within one or two months
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940. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yes, I'm willing to do that arguing. And also to get this resolved in a short period of time. ^_^
941. # [20:07] <annevk> cool
942. # [20:08] <annevk> I guess my writing won't be impacted by much of it, I'll just keep in mind it needs to tie into something at some point
943. # [20:08] <Velmont> Upgrading my Piwik. Find it funny that a new fix disables DNT header and still tracks, if the user agent shows that it's IE10. Because they set DNT on to standard, Piwik won't respect it :-)
944. # [20:09] <annevk> Apache did that too, I think that's one of the bad things Roy did <- [tm]
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947. # [20:09] <Velmont> Nah, I think Microsoft was totally in the wrong.
948. # [20:10] <Velmont> How would it even be useful when it's on by default?
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950. # [20:10] <Velmont> Then you don't actually get only the crazies that care about it, -- but even your father and everyone else who doesn't really care.
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956. # [20:26] <annevk> huh? nobody wants to be tracked
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965. # [20:32] <Velmont> annevk: you crazy :D
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969. # [20:38] <annevk> I think I might be
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971. # [20:38] <annevk> I somehow ended up on http://www.koalastothemax.com/ and moved the mouse around until I saw a dog, then reloaded and did it again, only to see an owl
972. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> That's the best site.
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974. # [20:55] <annevk> Hixie: btw, these longer diff lines suck on the iPhone
975. # [20:55] <annevk> Hixie: but maybe not on the iPhone 5... hmm
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983. # [21:01] <Hixie> annevk: dude, who reads diffs on a phone -_-
984. # [21:02] <annevk> Hixie: who edits the HTML spec with the ultimate goal of controlling his model train set?
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989. # [21:08] <Hixie> annevk: details
990. # [21:14] <annevk> btw, I finally found where that " " makes the host invalid comes from: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3454#appendix-C
991. # [21:14] <annevk> of course, per IDNA2008 that's no longer used
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997. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: Has your train set got out of a box yet?
998. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Or are you still working on the HTML side of things in the first instance? :)
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1001. # [21:36] <Hixie> "train set"
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1045. # [23:14] <heycam> TabAtkins, thanks for the pointer to css3-cascade. I think my patches do match what you've got in there.
1046. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> heycam: Cool.
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The end :)