/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-26 / end

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  90. # Session Close: Mon Nov 26 07:34:13 2012
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  93. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  97. # [07:35] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  165. # [10:00] <jgraham> Hixie: I have temporarily paged everything to do with the navigation out of my head. And it always takes a distressingly long time to reload. But the generic answer to your question is that if "cancel" means "don't run any further steps in the algorithm", that should be defined. But I don't recall if that was really a safe/correct thing to do, because half-finished steps could leave you with state that needs to be cleaned up
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  254. # [14:07] <zcorpan> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=815014 - was this supported in spidermonkey before?
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  275. # [14:11] <matjas> those quotes in comment 1 hurt
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  281. # [14:15] <zcorpan> seems to me opera, safari, chrome, ie8 all support a.arguments
  282. # [14:15] <zcorpan> what does ie9, ie10 do?
  283. # [14:16] <matjas> (I don’t have a VM handy to test, and I don’t remember)
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  285. # [14:18] <matjas> IIRC Firefox supports fn.arguments too but doesn’t make the object === the standard `arguments` object
  286. # [14:20] * matjas tests
  287. # [14:21] <matjas> confirmed
  288. # [14:22] <zcorpan> yeah. then they're just being silly
  289. # [14:24] <zcorpan> ie8 seems to throw when doing == or === comparison with arguments or a.arguments
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  295. # [14:32] <matjas> interesting
  296. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> can somebody please enlighten me as to why in Firefox window.hasOwnProperty('localStorage') is false while "'localStorage' in window" is true?
  297. # [14:34] <zcorpan> hmm, maybe it only does that for w() in live dom viewer. i get a different result with document.write.
  298. # [14:34] * attiks|away is now known as attiks
  299. # [14:34] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: maybe it's on the prototype?
  300. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> ah
  301. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> if so that'd explain it I guess
  302. # [14:35] <zcorpan> 'localStorage' in Window.prototype // true
  303. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> aha
  304. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> thanks
  305. # [14:36] <zcorpan> Window.prototype.hasOwnProperty('localStorage') // i guess it a better test. also true
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  307. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> yeah that seems better than just doing "'localStorage' in window" I guess
  308. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> hmm
  309. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> or maybe not
  310. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> false in Opera
  311. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> and Chrome
  312. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> I guess I'll just stick with "'localStorage' in window"
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  314. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: btw, wondering if you or jgraham might know why most of the tests in http://www.lookout.net/test/url/ don't get run in Operea
  315. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> We might end up having to put those properties all on the window object, fwiw
  316. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> *Opera
  317. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ok
  318. # [14:40] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: oh? why?
  319. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> Did you follow the "var indexedDB" mess?
  320. # [14:41] <zcorpan> i recall something about it. i thought the conclusion was that spidermonkey had a bug
  321. # [14:41] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=770844#c79
  322. # [14:42] <zcorpan> so i guess that includes methods, but it's only for window? is that right?
  323. # [14:42] <zcorpan> where methods i mean properties that are functions
  324. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> I'm not sure
  325. # [14:43] * Ms2ger got terribly confused in that discussion
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  328. # [14:51] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1927 - opera and chrome have open() on the object, safari has it on both the object and the prototype
  329. # [14:54] <zcorpan> i guess webidl should special-case the global object, then. wonder if the result is the same in workers...
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  337. # [14:59] <annevk> I liked that idea of inline workers
  338. # [14:59] <annevk> <script type=worker>
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  340. # [15:02] <zcorpan> postMessage([self.hasOwnProperty('postMessage'), self.__proto__.hasOwnProperty('postMessage')]); // safari: false,true. chrome: false,false. opera: true,false. firefox: false,true
  341. # [15:03] <zcorpan> i guess workers' idl are kinda special, or have been, at least
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  343. # [15:09] <annevk> I wonder if you can attribute this mess to not directly specifying things in terms of JavaScript
  344. # [15:10] <Ms2ger> You can attribute it to not really specifying things :)
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  346. # [15:11] <Ms2ger> I doubt the situation would be better even if the Old People had gone for JS-only specs
  347. # [15:17] <annevk> maybe if TC39 defined all the things?
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  350. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> Like __definePropery__, eh?
  351. # [15:24] <zcorpan> turns out the prototype chain is deeper in workers in various browsers
  352. # [15:25] <Ms2ger> Didn't the spec used to do something weird there too?
  353. # [15:25] <zcorpan> yes
  354. # [15:27] <zcorpan> firefox seems like closest to the spec, but it has two DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope. i don't think the spec has that
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  356. # [15:27] <zcorpan> or wait, i'm confused
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  358. # [15:28] <zcorpan> the object and the prototype both get stringified to [object DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope] in firefox
  359. # [15:28] <Ms2ger> That doesn't surprise me
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  362. # [15:30] <hallvors> MikeSmith: turns out http://www.lookout.net/test/url/ is quite an IFRAME and IFRAME.onload stress test
  363. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> yeah
  364. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> torture test
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  366. # [15:31] <hallvors> It first creates an IFRAME per test (they will be removed on onload)
  367. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> hallvors: there's got to be a better way to od it
  368. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> yeah
  369. # [15:32] <hallvors> There are some hardcoded limits in Opera regarding the number of allowed frames in a document
  370. # [15:33] <hallvors> I don't remember them exactly (and I thought they were aligned with or more generous than corresponding limits in other browsers) but that's likely the reason not all tests run here.
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  375. # [15:36] <annevk> maybe in other browsers the limit is on the number of <iframe>s in a document rather than the number that was created?
  376. # [15:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: could use <a> instead?
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  382. # [15:37] <hallvors> annevk: seems the nearly 500 IFRAMEs are created and appended from a single JS thread
  383. # [15:38] <annevk> not removed too? oh
  384. # [15:38] <hallvors> ..so there's no pause where we could get some of those onloads fired and get rid of some of them again :-[
  385. # [15:38] <hallvors> :-/
  386. # [15:39] <hallvors> I don't really see why waiting for onload would be necessary
  387. # [15:39] <hallvors> document.write() into IFRAME should have the contents parsed immediately AFAIK
  388. # [15:39] <hallvors> so it should be possible to do the asserts just after document.write()
  389. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> oh
  390. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> that'd make it easier
  391. # [15:40] <hallvors> (but perhaps whoever wrote that harness already tried that and had problems?)
  392. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> dunno
  393. # [15:40] <hallvors> it would certainly be way easier from Opera's point of view :-p
  394. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> he doesn't frequent IRC much I don't think
  395. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> ok
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  397. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> I'll take a look at it later myself
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  399. # [15:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: test_simple can be
  400. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> can be <a> instead, you mean?
  401. # [15:44] <annevk> var a = document.createElement("a"); a.href = url; assert_equals(a, expect_url);
  402. # [15:45] <annevk> see also https://github.com/annevk/url/blob/master/test-components.html#L129
  403. # [15:45] <annevk> though I'm not sure how well that works in Internet Explorer
  404. # [15:46] <annevk> maybe it's using <iframe> in part of browser compat problems
  405. # [15:46] <annevk> Firefox e.g. does not handle dynamic <base>
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  409. # [15:49] <hallvors> I wonder if setting a.href might parse some of the weird input differently than the document.write() does
  410. # [15:50] <hallvors> I have no idea if the tests would be equivalent if one just sets a.href ..
  411. # [15:50] <annevk> I do though :)
  412. # [15:50] <hallvors> OK :)
  413. # [15:51] <annevk> actually, unless you put stuff like &test; in tests, but I did not spot that
  414. # [15:51] <hallvors> BTW annevk: would you like to add test coverage script to the WHATWG version of XHR?
  415. # [15:51] <annevk> and that shows why DOM manipulation would be better anyway
  416. # [15:52] <annevk> hallvors: the tests coverage does not seem linked?
  417. # [15:52] <annevk> hallvors: and it's a bit too much in your face for my taste
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  419. # [15:53] <hallvors> test coverage data is a little bit incomplete but we're working on it
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  421. # [15:53] <hallvors> right now it will improve a lot once somebody runs some script to re-generate JSON data..
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  423. # [15:53] <hallvors> I'm sure the styling can be amended :)
  424. # [15:54] <annevk> hallvors: I guess once a) you can actually get to the test and b) it doesn't take up a whole horizontal thingie anymore it might be good
  425. # [15:54] <hallvors> anytime you like ;)
  426. # [15:54] <annevk> hallvors: I can add a post-commit hook to GitHub that will run that script
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  428. # [15:55] <hallvors> cool. I don' really know where the script is myself, Julian has been talking to Robin B so he knows that stuff
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  430. # [15:56] <darobin> yeah ask Julian :)
  431. # [15:56] <annevk> currently for each commit to xhr.spec.whatwg.org there's a script run that can also run other scripts and fetch JSON data if needed
  432. # [15:57] <annevk> should not really be a problem to integrate if someone lays out the bits for me
  433. # [15:57] <hallvors> or even better, lean back and let Julian just do the work :D
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  435. # [15:57] <annevk> sure :)
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  437. # [15:57] <zewt> as long as the styling isn't so intrusive :)
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  440. # [16:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: I don't see the subsequent commit in https://github.com/sideshowbarker/url-testing/commits/master where you added that /
  441. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> oh
  442. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> maybe I forgot to push
  443. # [16:02] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|bbl
  444. # [16:02] <annevk> MikeSmith: but if you also add it to "url", where are you testing that it does get added?
  445. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> ah I pushed it to my fork
  446. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm not
  447. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> we can another another test case for that
  448. # [16:03] <annevk> MikeSmith: I'm looking at your fork...
  449. # [16:03] <annevk> MikeSmith: and I thought this was supposed to be that test
  450. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> fuck I didn't even commit it
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  452. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> will just commit it and push it now
  453. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> without the trailing slash in the "url" field
  454. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> because otherwise as you note it's pretty pointless
  455. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> I put "A pathless URL. Expected URL should have a slash appended." for the "name" field
  456. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> OK pushed it now
  457. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> will send a pull request to Chris later too
  458. # [16:06] <annevk> cool
  459. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> will try to mess around later with the iframe thing too
  460. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> today
  461. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> after doing some day-job stuff that needs getting done by the end of the day
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  463. # [16:10] <zcorpan> annevk: indeed we tried to use <a xml:base href> first but chrome doesn't support that
  464. # [16:10] <zcorpan> annevk: i didn't dare go into dynamic <base> territory
  465. # [16:11] <zcorpan> annevk: iframe seemed like a working cross-browser approach
  466. # [16:11] <annevk> guess we could split the tests or so
  467. # [16:11] <annevk> to not hit Opera's limit
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  469. # [16:12] <zcorpan> the iframes are removed after the test has run, so the limit shouldn't be hit
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  472. # [16:13] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: Found 497 tests is what i get in both opera and firefox
  473. # [16:15] <zcorpan> i guess tests that don't use a base don't need an iframe
  474. # [16:16] <zcorpan> so it can be optimized a little
  475. # [16:17] <annevk> yeah that's what I said
  476. # [16:21] <zcorpan> i wrote the initial test case, which masinter fiddled with a bit and then chris made took over
  477. # [16:21] <zcorpan> s/made//
  478. # [16:22] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/url/relative-resolution.html is before chris
  479. # [16:22] <hallvors> zcorpan: all 497 tests are currently added in separate IFRAMEs from one JS thread, before onloads start firing and the framework starts removing IFRAMEs again, hence you run into the limit
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  481. # [16:23] <zcorpan> hallvors: ah. but the other iframes get processed when some are removed, i guess?
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  483. # [16:24] <hallvors> I think the limitation that was implemented is that after a certain number of frames we stop creating documents inside the new ones
  484. # [16:25] <hallvors> so actually only the first n IFRAMEs will have documents that fire onload events and complete their tests
  485. # [16:26] <zcorpan> the test runs to completion for me, which means they do get load event and a DOM that the parent can poke at
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  505. # [16:51] <annevk> a bunch of tests in urls.json are simply not run yet it seems
  506. # [16:52] <annevk> e.g. 498 I cannot find back when they're run
  507. # [16:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: while you're patching, replacing "expect_port": "0", with "expect_port": "", would also fix a bunch of failures
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  510. # [16:54] <annevk> MikeSmith: maybe I'll submit a patch for that
  511. # [16:57] <annevk> sweet, tests found a bug in the spec
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  522. # [17:27] <annevk> hmm
  523. # [17:27] <annevk> data:text/html,<style>:target{background:lime}</style><a id=x href=%23x>test</a>
  524. # [17:27] <annevk> should we support that?
  525. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> How about data:text/html,<style>:target{background:lime}</style><a id=x href=#x>test</a> ?
  526. # [17:31] <annevk> that wouldn't display anything I think
  527. # [17:31] <annevk> fragment identifiers are supported on all URLs
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  529. # [17:32] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Nov/0188.html he's aware of my work, but not its purpose with respect to HTML?
  530. # [17:32] <annevk> weird
  531. # [17:35] <GPHemsley> are data: pages allowed to have relative URLs?
  532. # [17:35] <annevk> not per the URL spec at this moment
  533. # [17:36] <GPHemsley> I think that makes sense
  534. # [17:36] <annevk> I can see a case for supporting just #, but that seems kinda hairy and you might as well handle that in HTML rather than in URL
  535. # [17:37] <GPHemsley> oh, yeah, hmm
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  537. # [17:37] <GPHemsley> how would you even write that URL?
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  539. # [17:37] <GPHemsley> I don't know that you can
  540. # [17:37] <annevk> I just did
  541. # [17:37] <GPHemsley> where?
  542. # [17:38] <darobin> in his head
  543. # [17:38] <annevk> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20121126#l-523
  544. # [17:38] <GPHemsley> that's not a URL, that's a link
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  546. # [17:38] <annevk> you asked where
  547. # [17:38] <GPHemsley> I meant an absolute data: URL with a fragment
  548. # [17:39] <annevk> o_O
  549. # [17:39] <GPHemsley> i.e., linking to #x from outside the page
  550. # [17:39] <GPHemsley> data:text/html,<style>:target{background:lime}</style><a id=x href=%23x>test</a>#x
  551. # [17:39] <GPHemsley> (which obviously doesn't work)
  552. # [17:40] <annevk> that would work
  553. # [17:40] <GPHemsley> oh
  554. # [17:40] <annevk> well, depending on what you mean
  555. # [17:40] <GPHemsley> right, because it all has to be percent-encoded?
  556. # [17:40] <GPHemsley> very nice
  557. # [17:41] <GPHemsley> so yeah, that makes sense
  558. # [17:42] <GPHemsley> BTW, if this is actually in a spec: "An absolute URL is an authority-based URL if, when resolved
  559. # [17:42] <GPHemsley> and then parsed, there are two characters immediately after
  560. # [17:42] <GPHemsley> the <scheme> component and they are both "//" (U+002F)
  561. # [17:42] <GPHemsley> characters."
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  563. # [17:42] <GPHemsley> that wording suggests that "//" is a single character and that there should be two of them ("////")
  564. # [17:43] <annevk> all that is going away soon
  565. # [17:44] <annevk> once Hixie updates HTML to use URL
  566. # [17:44] <annevk> dunno about W3C HTML5 against which Roy objects, but that's darobin's problem
  567. # [17:44] <GPHemsley> heh
  568. # [17:45] <annevk> I kinda like how he suggests to retrofit charset though to mean character encoding
  569. # [17:45] <darobin> I reckon anything involving using URL would just sail through as a change
  570. # [17:45] <darobin> taking Ian's changes is more like Silvia's problem actually :)
  571. # [17:46] <annevk> the resource / representation thing only matters if you believe in content negotiation...
  572. # [17:49] <annevk> darobin: that's not exactly why she volunteered
  573. # [17:49] <annevk> at least per http://blog.gingertech.net/2012/08/15/why-i-became-a-html5-editor/
  574. # [17:50] <darobin> annevk: she volunteered to handle WHAT WG integration — if she didn't want to do it I'm sure she'd let us know :)
  575. # [17:50] <annevk> zcorpan: you didn't update the obsolete header in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript
  576. # [17:50] <darobin> I really don't care about the resource / representation thing, and I hate conneg with a passion
  577. # [17:50] <darobin> I guess those two facts may be related
  578. # [17:50] <darobin> anyway, *shrug*
  579. # [17:51] <zcorpan> annevk: fixed
  580. # [17:55] <annevk> oh Roy is at Adobe too
  581. # [17:55] <annevk> I wonder if they all get together sometime over there, must be interesting
  582. # [17:56] <annevk> darobin: I thought the idea was to improve the signal/noise ratio on public-html?
  583. # [17:57] * Ms2ger sniggers
  584. # [17:57] <annevk> oh soon
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  589. # [18:02] <darobin> annevk: tee hee
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  595. # [18:15] <TabAtkins_> Darn, someone mentioned me over the thanksgiving weekend, but it's lost in the scrollback. :/
  596. # [18:16] <darobin> TabAtkins_: man, that's just evil. People shouldn't do that to you
  597. # [18:16] <smaug____> TabAtkins_: you know, we do have logs ;)
  598. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> darobin: I know! Those jerks.
  599. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> smaug____: Bah.
  600. # [18:17] <darobin> smaug____: you and your "helpful" suggestions...
  601. # [18:17] <annevk> TabAtkins_: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20121121
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  604. # [18:18] * darobin wonders if he can file a bug against Unicode for not having air quotes
  605. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> annevk: Hah, it was you calling me the Big Spammer.
  606. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> annevk: I'm fine with append. Probably better, actually, since add() is part of the Set API, so it's probably better to stay away from it if we're forging toward a MultiMap API.
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  608. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> annevk: I have no idea why tc39 decided on .size rather than .length. I assume it has something to do with not wanting to collide with the de facto "is an array" tests that just check the existence of .length on the object.
  609. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> Unfortunately, I don't think #webkit has any similar logging.
  610. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> If it does, it's not in the Topic.
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  637. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins_: do you use ninja for building on mac?
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  646. # [19:27] <TabAtkins_> MikeSmith: I don't build on mac.
  647. # [19:27] <TabAtkins_> I only work on Linux.
  648. # [19:28] <annevk> Hixie: what would you use as terminology for "obtaining a resource from a URL"; e.g. the bit where a http URL is turned into a HTTP request for instance, or where an about URL is token matched
  649. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> ah ok
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  651. # [19:28] <Ms2ger`> TabAtkins_, do you build on Linux?
  652. # [19:29] <Ms2ger`> If so, did you need to sacrifice goats to have it work?
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  654. # [19:32] <annevk> URL syntax / URL resource retrieval
  655. # [19:33] <annevk> with most URLs not having URL resource retrieval I suppose
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  660. # [19:43] <annevk> in 2000 you defined URLs like this http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2818#section-2.4
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  670. # [19:54] <TabAtkins_> Huh, Ms2ger is gone. That's strange.
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  672. # [19:55] <TabAtkins_> Anyway, Ms2ger, yes I build on Linux. It all worked out great as soon as I started following the "New Git Workflow" wiki page.
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  676. # [20:03] <marcosc_> Hixie: if I have srcset=", , ," the first candidate's url is "," right? (i.e., it does not matter that it's a comma) ... just want to confirm I didn't screw something up
  677. # [20:07] <annevk> marcosc_: afaict, yup
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  679. # [20:08] <marcosc_> thanks annevk
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  692. # [20:27] <jgraham> Did someone sort out the URL tests?
  693. # [20:27] <jgraham> Creating 500 iframes is just obnoxious
  694. # [20:27] <jgraham> Better to create a small pool and reuse them
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  699. # [20:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: good idea
  700. # [20:39] <zcorpan> actually, someone said that the tests can be sync
  701. # [20:39] <zcorpan> so the pool could be 1 iframe
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  728. # [21:00] <annevk> ah you can just clear an <iframe>?
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  736. # [21:14] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah... i don't really know what else it could be, though
  737. # [21:14] <Hixie> annevk: "fetch"? :-)
  738. # [21:15] <Hixie> marcosc_: sounds right
  739. # [21:15] <annevk> Hixie: so yeah, but we need some kind of URL scheme whitelist then in navigate
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  741. # [21:16] <annevk> Hixie: if it's in the whitelist, it can be fetched, otherwise, ask an "external" application
  742. # [21:16] <Hixie> yeah right now the browser is supposed to just know
  743. # [21:16] <Hixie> don't forget about registerProtocolHAndler() though
  744. # [21:16] <Hixie> it can turn one into another
  745. # [21:16] <Hixie> (changes the URL too)
  746. # [21:16] <annevk> Hixie: I was hoping that was part of navigate
  747. # [21:17] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. XHR uses fetch directly and I don't think it should hook into registerProtocolHandler
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  750. # [21:17] <Hixie> sounds right
  751. # [21:19] <annevk> okay so fetch is going to be the main algorithm, with obtain a resource from a URL (or some such) as subalgorithm with obtain a resource from a data URL (and others) as subsubalgorithms
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  753. # [21:19] <annevk> fetch will have the same whitelist as navigate, except instead of launching an app fetch will act as if there was a network error
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  755. # [21:22] <annevk> then we need some spec to define "resource" + "resource headers", with shortcuts for MIME type, encoding, HTTP status, and HTTP status text, so everything works in a HTTP context (for XMLHttpRequest)
  756. # [21:23] <annevk> then we're getting pretty close to defining <a> and friends :-)
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  764. # [21:38] <annevk> Hixie: fwiw, here's the whitelist I made http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/URL#Schemes
  765. # [21:38] <Hixie> roger
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  777. # [22:03] <marcosc_> Hixie: thanks
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  788. # [22:27] <marcosc_> Hixie, is the use case for testing img@srcset sufficient to warrant the addition of an IDL attribute to check which is the selected source? (otherwise, it's kinda impossible to check what's currently on screen with JS)
  789. # [22:29] <marcosc_> being able to query: img.currentSrc would be nice, as one does with media elements
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  799. # [22:49] <annevk> foolip: I read http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2010Nov/thread.html#msg112 any updates on javascript: from your side? what you think should work and should not?
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  802. # [22:55] <SimonSapin> annevk: about data: parsing. When implementations disagree, should we specify strict or more lenient? Examples: data:;Base64,cGFzcw data:; base64,cGFzcw
  803. # [22:56] <annevk> SimonSapin: usually we let it depend on the implementations
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  805. # [22:57] <SimonSapin> isn’t one of the goal to specify what to do on invalid input too?
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  807. # [22:57] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2011May/0229.html seems to argue for moving javascript to the navigate layer
  808. # [22:58] <annevk> SimonSapin: yes, but if say only Opera does the strict behavior, we go with lenient, but if only Opera is lenient, we might go with strict
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  811. # [22:59] <SimonSapin> oh, so try to find a majority? how do you judge which implementations are relevant or how much?
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  813. # [23:00] <TabAtkins_> More or less, market share.
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  815. # [23:00] <jgraham> Not just a majority
  816. # [23:00] <TabAtkins_> But it's not strictly that (or else Opera would almost never count).
  817. # [23:00] <jgraham> If there are 3 implementations and 2 do the same, but are willing to chanhe but one is not, you pick the one that you can converge on
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  819. # [23:01] <SimonSapin> admittedly I’m searching for corner cases, many of which nobody use or care about
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  821. # [23:02] <SimonSapin> I mean, who is gonna write src="data: B%61se64,foo" and mix both base64 alphabets?
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  824. # [23:04] <SimonSapin> (There is "normal" base64 and "URL safe" base64, rfc2397 doesn’t say which should be used)
  825. # [23:05] <jgraham> You know you are doing something properly interesting when there are N+1 behaviours (N implementations plus the spec), N-2 implementors have stated that they won't change their implentation, and 1 implementor doesn't give feedback
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  827. # [23:06] <jgraham> And by "interesting" I think I mean "related to document loading"
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  830. # [23:07] <annevk> SimonSapin: so I guess it depends on whether you convert scheme data + "? + query to bytes first before you start the MIME parser or not
  831. # [23:07] <annevk> SimonSapin: browsers seem to differ
  832. # [23:07] <annevk> SimonSapin: data:text/ht%4DL,<b>test
  833. # [23:07] <jwalden> it's easier to allow lenient behavior later, when strict was the initial setting, than it is to go the other way
  834. # [23:08] <jwalden> which to me usually argues for strict behavior
  835. # [23:08] <jwalden> if you find people are really screwing with you and writing crazy data URLs, you can change at that point
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  837. # [23:10] <SimonSapin> The RFC has a literal ";base64" string, no variation (casing, spaces, …) seems to be allowed. Some implementation today are more lenient, but I have no idea if someone relies on that.
  838. # [23:12] <annevk> SimonSapin: note that the URI RFC does call for removing escapes such as %4D but that browsers do not do that when parsing and that therefore you get them as literals when parsing scheme data
  839. # [23:12] <annevk> SimonSapin: it seems that both Gecko and Chrome do not treat data:text/ht%4DL as data:text/htML so maybe it's okay to not unescape at that point
  840. # [23:14] <SimonSapin> The data: RFC has some unprecise points, but nothing majorly broken so far
  841. # [23:15] <annevk> yeah, it's just a few minor things
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  843. # [23:16] <SimonSapin> is it worth taking the whole thing over?
  844. # [23:18] <annevk> I think it's worth fixing, not really sure what the best way is
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  846. # [23:20] <Hixie> marcosc_: historically testing hasn't been a strong enough reason to add a feature, but if you can get the vendors on board...
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  849. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> wow, IETF has impressive documents in STD, like the Echo Protocol and the Discard Protocol
  850. # [23:27] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  851. # [23:28] <annevk> it seems in the early days the IETF did not have very high requirements for a STD
  852. # [23:28] <annevk> e.g. http://tools.ietf.org/html/std23 :-)
  853. # [23:28] <SimonSapin> annevk: was something wrong with the UTF-8 RFC? (I did not read it)
  854. # [23:29] <SimonSapin> yeah, I’m glad we reserved low TCP ports for these :)
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  858. # [23:29] <annevk> SimonSapin: Unicode did not tie down error handling and I felt like making the set of encodings complete
  859. # [23:30] <annevk> SimonSapin: some of that could be done via reference maybe, but I'm not sure it would become clearer in the end
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  861. # [23:30] <Hixie> annevk: yeah (re js: in the navigate layer), that's an interesting idea
  862. # [23:31] <SimonSapin> oh yeah, utf* is in Unicode … but also RFCs?
  863. # [23:32] <annevk> SimonSapin: I have the feeling there's some tension between Unicode and IETF
  864. # [23:32] <SimonSapin> "The current representation formats for Unicode (UTF-7, UTF-8, UTF-16) are not storage and computation efficient on platforms that utilize the 9 bit nonet as a natural storage unit instead of the 8 bit octet. " (UTF-9)
  865. # [23:32] <TabAtkins_> lolwut
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  867. # [23:33] <SimonSapin> did we actually have nonet-based hardware at some point?
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  869. # [23:33] <TabAtkins_> Apparently the PDP-10 had a 36-bit word.
  870. # [23:33] <TabAtkins_> So a nonet was a useful size for the byte.
  871. # [23:33] <hober> and 18-bit addressing. great machine for representing cons cells on. :)
  872. # [23:34] <TabAtkins_> hober: Just because you have a couple extra bits for type tagging?
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  874. # [23:35] <annevk> because April 1 TabAtkins_!
  875. # [23:35] <TabAtkins_> Oh jeez, of course.
  876. # [23:36] <SimonSapin> oh, I fell right for it
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  879. # [23:38] <annevk> SimonSapin: in my experience it's easier to define the better version than to argue to the status quo and then define the better version
  880. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> At least UTF-9 is probably the sanest possible implementation of such a thing.
  881. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Dunno what's going on with UTF-18.
  882. # [23:38] <annevk> SimonSapin: I suspect either way we'll end up fixing the data URL spec
  883. # [23:38] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
  884. # [23:39] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  885. # [23:40] <SimonSapin> annevk: what bothers me is in some cases I have no idea how to decide what’s better. "base64" case-sensitive or not? Both sound fine…
  886. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> case-sensitive is best if you can get away with it.
  887. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Just because it's simpler.
  888. # [23:41] <annevk> UTF-5! http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/Archives-Old/UML021/0846.html
  889. # [23:41] <annevk> there was also UTF-7.5 at some point, lost the reference
  890. # [23:41] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: … do you mean insensitive?
  891. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: No, sensitive. That way you can just do a straight string or byte comparison, no need to lowercase beforehand or whatever.
  892. # [23:42] * Quits: jonlee|afk (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:dcd7:686b:323c:31c6) (Quit: jonlee|afk)
  893. # [23:42] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: of course. I confused the two in my head
  894. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Heh, np.
  895. # [23:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: since you need to lowercase the MIME string anyway (as you parse, since lowercasing parameter values is probably not okay), lowercasing might be better here...
  896. # [23:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: but again, what do implementations do?
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  899. # [23:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: otherwise, do as jwalden said above and just note in the source of the text where you might want to change things based on feedback
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  903. # [23:45] <SimonSapin> oh well … test case: data:;Base64,cGFzcw Firefox: pass, Chromium: cGFzcw, Opera: pas (missing an s)
  904. # [23:45] <SimonSapin> the test case is missing == padding
  905. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> So... container formats are annoying. Do you suppose it's my job to include instructions on how to differentiate among all the different Ogg-based audio and video formats?
  906. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  907. # [23:46] <GPHemsley> That would require implementing an at-least-rudimentary Ogg parsing algorithm
  908. # [23:46] <annevk> GPHemsley: again, only those we want to see implemented
  909. # [23:47] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, there are a bunch of those.
  910. # [23:47] <SimonSapin> actual padding is ==, but = is enough to make Opera happy
  911. # [23:47] <annevk> GPHemsley: I'd ask implementors; maybe the course of action is just to determine it's "Ogg" and then find out in the Ogg library
  912. # [23:48] <SimonSapin> Ogg library sounds less insane
  913. # [23:49] <annevk> SimonSapin: in any event, it seems like you're hitting all the right edge cases :-)
  914. # [23:50] * Joins: ^esc (~esc_ape@77.117.246.211.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  915. # [23:50] <SimonSapin> annevk: I’m gonna start with a test suite
  916. # [23:51] <annevk> SimonSapin: btw, I recommend testing one thing at a time; e.g. data:;base64,cGFzcw (lowercase B) gives "pass" in Chrome too, so that might be the right answer for the base64 algo
  917. # [23:51] <SimonSapin> I’m not sure why base64 even *has* padding, you can get by without it by counting the input length
  918. # [23:52] <Hixie> anyoen know offhand what default font IE uses on canvas?
  919. # [23:52] <annevk> maybe look at http://www.whatwg.org/html#atob too
  920. # [23:52] <annevk> SimonSapin: ^^
  921. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: When dealing with concatenated base64, you need padding.
  922. # [23:53] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: concatenating encoded messages without re-encoding?
  923. # [23:53] * Quits: Malese (~Martin_L@81-233-190-9-no212.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  924. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Yes, concatting multiple base64-encoded things into a single text file.
  925. # [23:54] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  926. # [23:54] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  927. # [23:55] <SimonSapin> hum, I see nothing in rfc4648 about decoding the handling character anywhere but at the end
  928. # [23:55] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  929. # [23:55] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.106.41) (Quit: othermaciej)
  930. # [23:55] <SimonSapin> s/decoding the handling character/handling the padding character/
  931. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> Shrug, it's what wikipedia says.
  932. # [23:55] <GPHemsley> annevk, SimonSapin: Sent an e-mail to the list.
  933. # [23:56] <Hixie> GPHemsley: fwiw, i think combining video and audio together makes sense
  934. # [23:56] <Hixie> (the html spec doesn't distinguish them)
  935. # [23:57] <GPHemsley> ah, good
  936. # [23:57] <GPHemsley> but they are distinct from images, correct?
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  938. # [23:57] <Hixie> yes
  939. # [23:59] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: I don’t know anything about sniffing, but re-inventing a Ogg parser for this sounds "like a jackhammer to squach a fly"
  940. # [23:59] * Quits: twisted` (u6794@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cmdmrnkjmkoaiwtg) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  941. # [23:59] * Quits: hdv (u2376@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yzccccloikxdpuwu) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  942. # [23:59] * GPHemsley thinks he needs to reword the anonymous wiki registration message to make clear that accounts are only need to edit the wiki.
  943. # [23:59] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Oh, I am opposed to it, too. :)
  944. # Session Close: Tue Nov 27 00:00:00 2012

The end :)