/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 27 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> Of the five or so accounts I've created, only one of them has actually been used.
  4. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> (maybe it's more than five)
  5. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> on person wanted two accounts: one for them, and one for their company.
  6. # [00:00] <annevk> haha nice find MikeSmith
  7. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> I created one, asked about the other, haven't heard back
  8. # [00:00] <SimonSapin> (that expressions sounds even better in english than french)
  9. # [00:01] <annevk> first splits Microdata from HTML5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Dec/0299.html then argues for making it useless https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20082
  10. # [00:01] <SimonSapin> "(not as a chair or editor of RDFa)"
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  12. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: that find goes to Maciej actually
  13. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> or at least the credit for pointing it out first
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  15. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Nov/0186.html
  16. # [00:05] <annevk> it's sad that we can't free othermaciej to work on other things than lawyering
  17. # [00:05] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  18. # [00:05] <othermaciej> I would enjoy working on real things
  19. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Regarding your questions a few days ago about EOT, EOT1 is trivial - just a simply documented header on top of the TTF format. EOT2 is much more complex, and has weirder patent issues due to the in-built MTX compression. EOT2 never made significant progress in the W3C because of that. EOT1 was rejected in favor of WOFF1 largely for policitical reasons.
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  27. # [00:24] <SimonSapin> annevk: does synchronous XHR sounds like good way to test data: ?
  28. # [00:25] <annevk> maybe synchronous <iframe> that does a postMessage() to its parent?
  29. # [00:25] <annevk> XHR'ing data URLs is not widely supported yet
  30. # [00:25] <SimonSapin> hum, how would that work?
  31. # [00:26] <SimonSapin> have the whole script with postMessage be part of the data: URL?
  32. # [00:26] <annevk> never mind
  33. # [00:26] <annevk> so I guess the problem is that some browsers don't do XHR'ing data URLs and some browsers don't allow same-origin access to <iframe> with a data URL
  34. # [00:27] <annevk> otherwise you could do <iframe>.contentDocument.... after the data URL loaded
  35. # [00:28] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: I didn't know there were two. I imagine IE implements both?
  36. # [00:31] <SimonSapin> annevk: is there an intersection between these sets of browsers?
  37. # [00:31] <annevk> SimonSapin: sorry, dunno
  38. # [00:32] <annevk> matjas: http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:name_property_of_functions
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  42. # [00:35] <SimonSapin> annevk: so XHR, <iframe>.contentDocument … other potential ways to test data: from JS?
  43. # [00:36] <annevk> SimonSapin: if you include script in them you can run a Worker based on a data URL
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  45. # [00:37] <annevk> SimonSapin: I suspect if it failed to parse/compile you'd get an error of some kind and otherwise the script could post a message back, might be a simple way
  46. # [00:37] <annevk> SimonSapin: cannot really think of anything else right now, maybe tomorrow :)
  47. # [00:37] <SimonSapin> thanks :)
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  56. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Yes, they do. Actually a few variants, too.
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  67. # [01:25] <marcosc_> Hixie: regarding currentSrc, would it be enough to get a few +1 from vendors even if they are noncommittal? What would you like to see in particular?
  68. # [01:26] <Hixie> well for anything, what we need is "we're implementing this"
  69. # [01:26] <Hixie> since there's not much point speccing something they don't implement :-)
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  75. # [01:49] <marcosc_> Hixie: understood. Who has made commitments on img@srset so far?
  76. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> I think we're implementing (webkit).
  77. # [01:50] <marcosc_> TabAtkins, ok cool. I'll see if I can find a bug number.
  78. # [01:51] <marcosc_> TabAtkins, if you know who I can ask about supporting img.currentSrc, that would be great.
  79. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> marcosc_: Dunno, sorry. :/
  80. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> But poke around in #webkit?
  81. # [01:52] <marcosc_> ok, will do :)
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  86. # [02:07] <Hixie> GPHemsley: if you're still around, one thing to check is a PNG that is sent with Content-Type: that is blank followed by a Content-Type that says text/html
  87. # [02:07] <Hixie> GPHemsley: seems some browsers don't handle that well
  88. # [02:07] <GPHemsley> Hixie: You mean, two Content-Type headers?
  89. # [02:08] <Hixie> yeah
  90. # [02:08] <Hixie> first one blank
  91. # [02:08] <Hixie> second one text/html
  92. # [02:08] <Hixie> data is a PNG
  93. # [02:08] <Hixie> someone here just pointed me to some internal file where chrome is doing bad things when that's loaded in an iframe
  94. # [02:09] <GPHemsley> oy
  95. # [02:09] <GPHemsley> what a convoluted situation
  96. # [02:09] <GPHemsley> according to the spec as it stands now, it's supposed to be treated as text/html, I believe
  97. # [02:09] * GPHemsley checks
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  99. # [02:10] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Yeah, according to the current draft of the spec, that will never be detected as a PNG.
  100. # [02:11] <GPHemsley> The spec treats the last Content-Type header as the supplied one
  101. # [02:11] <GPHemsley> and text/html is only checked to see whether it's a feed
  102. # [02:11] <GPHemsley> otherwise, it's treated as HTML
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  109. # [02:20] <GPHemsley> I can't seem to get Apache to send an empty header
  110. # [02:21] <GPHemsley> but I can confirm that a PNG file sent as text/html is treated as HTML by Gecko
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  113. # [02:23] <kmbarnhart> Hi, I'm working on the webvtt parser. Right now I'm writting test.
  114. # [02:24] <GPHemsley> (not even with PHP??)
  115. # [02:25] <kmbarnhart> I'm working on the cue settings. The syntax rules state that there can be no duplicates of a setting in a cue. However, the parser has to check and will process duplicate settings. Should I write tests to make sure duplicate settings are parsed, or leave duplicate settings as unknown behaviour.
  116. # [02:26] <kmbarnhart> Is there some sort of precedence, so I'm I best of writing to the mailing list.
  117. # [02:26] <kmbarnhart> *or not so
  118. # [02:26] <kmbarnhart> *am I no I'm
  119. # [02:27] <Hixie> GPHemsley: you'll probably have to test with a .asis or something
  120. # [02:27] <Hixie> GPHemsley: but yeah, i think different browsers get it different
  121. # [02:27] <kmbarnhart> Is there some sort of precedence, or am I best off writing to the mailing list.
  122. # [02:27] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Even PHP won't let me send multiple Content-Type headers... or at least, not an empty one
  123. # [02:28] * GPHemsley sighs and wanders off to watch TV...
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  125. # [02:30] <doublec> kmbarnhart: probably best to ask on the mailing list
  126. # [02:30] <kmbarnhart> Thank you
  127. # [02:30] <zewt> (the syntax rules say what authors should do, but that doesn't conflict with the parser rules telling implementations what to do)
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  141. # [03:01] <marcosc_> Hixie, sorry. One last question: in the img@srcset spec it says that density is "a valid floating-point number giving a number greater than zero". However, in the parsing algorithm, there is no check positive floats so parsing srcset="foo -1.0x" still gives me a density of -1.0 for the candidate. Is that correct or am I missing something?
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  174. # [04:27] <Hixie> marcosc: i think you're probably right.
  175. # [04:27] <Hixie> marcosc: probably works identically to 0x in practice (which is likely identical to 1x)
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  216. # [07:25] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: didn't you get the memo? if you're trying to test weird http headers with apache, you're gonna have a bad time.
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  218. # [07:26] <zcorpan> (asis might work)
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  222. # [07:29] <zcorpan> kmbarnhart: dup settings is tested in http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Opera/media/track/webvtt/parsing/001.html
  223. # [07:29] <zcorpan> kmbarnhart: it's specified in the parser which one wins (iirc, the last one that has a valid value)
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  233. # [07:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: isn't it better to drop items with negative and zero densities?
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  244. # [08:01] <hsivonen> oh. there’s XForms 2.0 being developed: https://twitter.com/johnboyerphd/status/233252670285168641
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  268. # [08:57] <Ms2ger> XForms 2, eh?
  269. # [08:57] <Ms2ger> From @johnboyerphd
  270. # [08:57] * Ms2ger remembers something about people who put "PhD" after their name
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  279. # [09:19] <hsivonen> i18n Y U reopen bugs?
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  316. # [10:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: the other John Boyer has some funny tweets https://twitter.com/johnboyer
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  318. # [10:35] <annevk> "This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created." <- How do I tell Gmail my filters saved the day?
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  320. # [10:38] <annevk> hsivonen: I was hoping you wouldn't be interested :-)
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  341. # [11:16] <annevk> hmm, IDL now has RegExp?
  342. # [11:17] <darobin> annevk: yup \o/
  343. # [11:20] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  344. # [11:21] <jgraham> Hmm, I fail at changing mail subject lines
  345. # [11:24] <annevk> meh, I keep replying from the @WHATWG twitter account accidentally
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  348. # [11:28] <darobin> "WHATWG caught up in sex scandal after Twitter leak"
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  350. # [11:34] <annevk> heh
  351. # [11:34] <annevk> http://roy.gbiv.com/talks/201008_Open_Development.pdf is pretty interesting
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  353. # [11:38] <JibberJim> It better be worth it the length of time it's taking to download!
  354. # [11:40] <Ms2ger`> Wait
  355. # [11:40] <Ms2ger`> DId he just put "Credibility with world-class people." next to a picture of himself?
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  359. # [11:52] <annevk> oh, meta-object protocol is not used in the specification, I thought just the abbreviation wasn't
  360. # [11:53] <annevk> so how do I find out about it if it's not actually there?
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  362. # [11:54] <annevk> I guess the idea is that the platform should mostly use "Ordinary Object Internal Methods and Internal Data Properties" and not "Built-in Exotic Object Internal Methods and Data Fields" or "Proxy Object Internal Methods and Internal Data Properties"?
  363. # [11:55] <Ms2ger`> Sorry, too many capitals
  364. # [11:56] <annevk> I do like the precision of the ES drafts
  365. # [11:56] <annevk> we could learn something from the style
  366. # [11:57] <jgraham> Pretty sure you disagreed with me last time I said that
  367. # [11:57] <jgraham> Although I might be imagining things
  368. # [11:58] <annevk> jgraham: maybe my opinion changes over time?
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  370. # [11:59] <annevk> Pretty sure I changed my mind on <tr href="">, but I believe there is more :-)
  371. # [12:00] <JibberJim> "Issue tracker instead of ?just ask Bob to fix this?" - yes, never trust Bob, he's lousy.
  372. # [12:00] <jgraham> Dunno, I suppose it's possible. All I know is than when I dreamt I was in a classroom and someone was trying to teach character encodings, you were there and kept correcting them.
  373. # [12:01] <jgraham> But I'm not sure you can tell anything from that
  374. # [12:04] <annevk> haha
  375. # [12:08] <annevk> JibberJim: yeah, I don't think it's anything new, but it was interesting to understand that not everyone works this way
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  379. # [12:24] <JibberJim> Oh indeed annevk - you're too young, you've not seen the horrors that go on some places :
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  391. # [13:05] <Lachy> annevk, I finished the initial import of Selectors API into DOM4. Do you want to take a look and give any feedback before I do a pull request?
  392. # [13:06] <Lachy> https://github.com/lachlanhunt/dom/tree/selectorsapi
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  395. # [13:10] <annevk5> Lachy, later today; fwiw, last I looked I thought an additional section was overkill
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  398. # [13:11] <annevk5> Maybe Ms2ger can have a look
  399. # [13:11] <Lachy> annevk5, considering that the methods are mostly shared by 3 interfaces, and there's quite a few algorithms that go with it, I though it made more sense to do a separate section than to duplicate it all under Document, DocumentFragment and Element.
  400. # [13:11] <Lachy> also, there's been a lot more added since you last looked.
  401. # [13:13] <annevk5> Okay, getting a haircut at the moment and need to do a few other things, give me a few hours
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  403. # [13:15] <annevk5> We need to find a more generic solution as more methods/attributes are shared
  404. # [13:15] <annevk5> Getting somewhat messy
  405. # [13:18] <zcorpan> implements?
  406. # [13:19] <annevk5> Maybe as simple as that
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  413. # [13:40] <Lachy> an old draft of selectors API used to define something like a NodeSelector interface, and then said that was implemented by the other 3 interfaces. But that was changed to use partial interfaces for some technical reasons that I can't remember
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  418. # [13:52] <annevk> Lachy: those reasons should be gone, provided you use NoInterfaceObject
  419. # [13:52] <Lachy> I was using NoInterfaceObject at the time. I will look into it though and find out what the reasons were exactly.
  420. # [13:52] <annevk> What I think we need to is what zcorpan suggested. Introduce ElementContainer and probably ElementContainerOrSibling
  421. # [13:53] <annevk> then move the mutation stuff under those
  422. # [13:53] <annevk> and put Selectors along with getElementsByTagName() and such there too
  423. # [13:53] <Lachy> ok, we can do that.
  424. # [13:54] <annevk> oh also, you can contribute under CC0? that's fine?
  425. # [13:54] <Lachy> I hope so.
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  427. # [13:55] <Lachy> I'll check with Lars Erik, just to be sure
  428. # [13:55] <annevk> concepts I have now
  429. # [13:55] <annevk> RootNode
  430. # [13:56] <annevk> that's for Document/DocumentFragment/Element
  431. # [13:56] <annevk> and ChildNode
  432. # [13:56] <annevk> for DocumentType/Element/CharacterData
  433. # [13:58] <annevk> I guess we can turn those into actual interfaces
  434. # [13:58] <annevk> Ms2ger / Ms3ger: ^^
  435. # [14:04] <annevk> zcorpan: fwiw, I'll implement your other suggestion too at that point, the one about nextElementSibling and such
  436. # [14:08] <zcorpan> annevk: was that to make them available on all nodes that can have element siblings?
  437. # [14:08] <annevk> yup, ChildNode above
  438. # [14:08] <Lachy> annevk, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011AprJun/0039.html
  439. # [14:10] <annevk> Lachy: I'm pretty sure on the interface itself and implements + NoInterfaceObject are the same these days
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  443. # [14:13] <annevk> Lachy: as for review, where should I put review comments?
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  446. # [14:14] <Lachy> I guess I'll just do a pull request for both dom and xrefs with the new selectors references and you can put them there.
  447. # [14:15] <annevk> the only problem with the pull request thing is that it results in many commits :/
  448. # [14:16] <annevk> here are a few to start
  449. # [14:16] <annevk> * needs domintro
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  451. # [14:16] <annevk> * if you define something called a flag, have it be set or unset, don't give it values
  452. # [14:17] <annevk> * Element node -> concept-element
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  457. # [14:21] <annevk> (no domintro boxes needed for querySelector btw if the goal is that people use find)
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  464. # [14:42] <Ms2ger`> Lachy, do you have the selectorsapi branch somewhere I can look at it?
  465. # [14:44] <Lachy> Ms2ger`, http://lachy.id.au/temp/dom-core.html
  466. # [14:44] <Ms2ger`> Ta
  467. # [14:46] <Ms2ger`> There's a [[!SELECTORS4]] left
  468. # [14:47] <Lachy> oh, oops . where?
  469. # [14:47] <Lachy> ah, in namespaces.
  470. # [14:47] <Ms2ger`> Yep
  471. # [14:48] <Lachy> annevk, re the many commits problem, I'll sort that out once I resolve all the issues. I can rebase it and squash all the commits down to just one later and do another pull request.
  472. # [14:49] <Lachy> annevk, though it would be more useful if we had Critic set up for review comments
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  476. # [14:56] <foolip> annevk, still there?
  477. # [14:56] <annevk> foolip: yeah
  478. # [14:56] <foolip> my conclusion from that time is that any kind of inline load of javascript: is pretty useless
  479. # [14:57] <foolip> but are you asking with regard to parsing and such for the URL standard?
  480. # [14:57] <annevk> foolip: where to handle it, my idea was to put it in the "navigate" layer and have it just be an error if it reaches "fetch"
  481. # [14:58] <annevk> Lachy: sounds good
  482. # [14:58] <foolip> right now it's somewhere around top-level browsing contexts in the HTML spec, isn't it?
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  484. # [15:00] <foolip> annevk, maybe that's the navigate layer you mean, since url.spec.whatwg.org doesn't talk about navigation?
  485. # [15:00] <annevk> foolip: it's in "fetch" currently, which is mostly about turning a URL into a resource, but it includes inline loads
  486. # [15:01] <annevk> foolip: yeah not sure what url.spec.whatwg.org should say about this, there's so many layers :-)
  487. # [15:01] <annevk> Lachy: might also be interesting to talk to the CSS folks and have them define all Selector parsing
  488. # [15:01] <annevk> Lachy: ah, there's an issue to that effect doh
  489. # [15:01] <foolip> annevk, as far as I know, it would make sense to handle it the navigation of browsing contexts, and trying to fetch certainly could be an error
  490. # [15:02] <annevk> k, thanks
  491. # [15:02] <foolip> I'm not sure if there's any compat issues with not treating the return value of javascript: as a new document, might want to look into that
  492. # [15:02] <SimonSapin> annevk: what about selector parsing?
  493. # [15:02] <foolip> seemed fine to drop it for inline loads at least
  494. # [15:02] <foolip> gotta go
  495. # [15:04] <Ms2ger`> "These groups of selectors should not use namespace prefixes that need to be resolved."
  496. # [15:04] <Ms2ger`> That "should" looks weird there
  497. # [15:05] <SimonSapin> that’s easy: just say that no ns declarations are in scope
  498. # [15:05] <SimonSapin> prefix declarations
  499. # [15:05] <SimonSapin> Selectors already says that using an undeclared prefix is invalid
  500. # [15:09] <Ms2ger`> And it would be nice to introduce RootNode or whatever before introducing the selectors stuff
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  504. # [15:12] <SimonSapin> In fact selectors-api doesn’t need to say anything: "The mechanism by which namespace prefixes are declared should be specified by the language that uses Selectors. If the language does not specify a namespace prefix declaration mechanism, then no prefixes are declared." http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors/#nsdecl
  505. # [15:12] <SimonSapin> Although it can, to make this more explicit
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  508. # [15:16] <annevk> if that's the case a note should suffice
  509. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1928 seems like safari and chrome throw a SecurityError
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  511. # [15:29] <annevk> zcorpan_: URL parser already does encodeURIComponent although I guess if you use newlines and tab it might be useful
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  515. # [15:40] <zcorpan_> annevk: i was thinking more of #
  516. # [15:42] <Lachy> annevk, I already emailed www-style and spoke to fantasai and TabAtkins about doing that during TPAC.
  517. # [15:42] <annevk> Lachy: k
  518. # [15:42] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0832.html
  519. # [15:43] <annevk> Lachy: do you want me to copy the comments I made earlier into the pull request thingie or is it okay like this?
  520. # [15:43] * annevk is trying to write his IDNA piece and is getting lost in it
  521. # [15:43] <Lachy> it's ok here. I'll make a note of them.
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  524. # [15:54] <annevk> Lachy: the idiom "return the result of running x" is okay, but I'd try to factor out algorithm itself as much as possible, that doesn't match the style we use afaik
  525. # [15:54] <annevk> Lachy: the word algorithm, that is
  526. # [15:55] <annevk> Lachy: also, I guess the best approach here is I first make the changes with respect to RootNode / ChildNode and that you then integrate based on that
  527. # [15:55] <annevk> Ms2ger`: you okay with RootNode / ChildNode?
  528. # [15:56] <annevk> Ms2ger`: Lachy: my thinking is subsection of "Node tree"
  529. # [15:56] <annevk> (subsections)
  530. # [15:57] <Lachy> annevk, ok
  531. # [15:58] <Ms2ger`> annevk, yeah, sounds good
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  557. # [17:07] <annevk> Ms2ger, we should also make the switch away from Hixie-style algorithms towards JavaScript-style algorithms
  558. # [17:07] <annevk> Ms2ger, no more "terminate these steps" but just return / throw / ... and say when the steps are not terminated
  559. # [17:07] <annevk> Ms2ger, not entirely sure how we should start with that, do we even explain the current rules somewhere?
  560. # [17:08] <gsnedders> othermaciej: What would I do if not pedant your comments? ;P
  561. # [17:09] <odinho_> annevk: You do that already though, don't you?
  562. # [17:09] <annevk> odinho_: some specs do, some specs don't, some do both I guess
  563. # [17:09] * gsnedders wants to know how to avoid introducing ambiguity without making it so hard to parallelize the spec's algorithms
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  565. # [17:09] <annevk> odinho_: maybe I should just change as I come across stuff
  566. # [17:10] <annevk> gsnedders: is that in reference to this conversation because I'm not sure what you're saying
  567. # [17:10] <annevk> gsnedders: ?
  568. # [17:11] <gsnedders> annevk: Pretty much. See what dbaron was saying wrt Servo a while back and various forms of specs.
  569. # [17:11] <annevk> gsnedders: 1) I need a pointer for dbaron's thing 2) This is only about changing style, not substance
  570. # [17:12] <jgraham> I think that servo has the constraint that it has to be indistinguishable from a non-parallel implementation except in areas where there is no compat constraint
  571. # [17:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think the aim was for it to be indistringuishable in general, just given large amounts of prose it's not entirely clear how you transform that algorithm to something with concurrent steps.
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  573. # [17:13] <jgraham> Yes, that is a hard problem of course
  574. # [17:13] <jgraham> But easier if you have an implementation than if you are just trying to write specs
  575. # [17:14] <gsnedders> annevk: http://dbaron.org/log/20120827-specification-style
  576. # [17:16] <annevk> Ah yeah, I did read that. Unfortunately I couldn't think of anything to do different
  577. # [17:16] <gsnedders> I wonder whether it's possible to give everything as a list of constraints.
  578. # [17:16] <gsnedders> Well, obviously it's possible.
  579. # [17:17] <gsnedders> But feasible?
  580. # [17:17] <gsnedders> I'm not saying we should throw everything out, but still.
  581. # [17:17] <annevk> It seems unlikely I'm going to rewrite the URL Standard in terms of constraints, or anything really.
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  583. # [17:18] <jgraham> I don't even know what it would mean to rewrite the parsing algorithm, for example, in terms of constraints
  584. # [17:18] <annevk> jgraham: right
  585. # [17:18] <jgraham> Or that it would translate nicely to rust if you did
  586. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Parsing I think makes sense as a state machine.
  587. # [17:19] <jgraham> In that case the obvious parallelisation points are well known i.e. you can run the tokenizer in one task and the treebuilder in another
  588. # [17:19] <jgraham> I don't think you can do better than that
  589. # [17:19] <gsnedders> Is that feasible? I thought there was some conclusion that that wasn't doable without duplicating several stacks.
  590. # [17:20] <jgraham> Well gecko does that already
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  592. # [17:20] <gsnedders> I thought I remembered something from foreign content that made it difficult
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  594. # [17:22] <gsnedders> Though maybe that was just the change that meant you had to keep at least some information about the current stack to do so.
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  599. # [17:38] <GPHemsley> zcorpan: Oh, I got the memo. I just ignored it, because of the apparent hassle to use something else. (And I've been able to work around every other problem I've encountered so far.)
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  602. # [17:40] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Chrome Ph.D.?
  603. # [17:41] <GPHemsley> Wasn't XForms support just removed from Gecko?
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  606. # [17:43] <jwalden> think so, yes
  607. # [17:43] * GPHemsley wonders how/why annevk was on IRC while getting a haircut.
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  609. # [17:44] <GPHemsley> Has anybody drawn a map of the interaction of all the different Web specs?
  610. # [17:48] <darobin> GPHemsley: yup, http://kwz.me/S5
  611. # [17:48] <GPHemsley> darobin: You're such a character.
  612. # [17:49] <darobin> GPHemsley: I prefer "code point"
  613. # [17:49] <GPHemsley> :)
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  629. # [18:09] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  631. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> good evening dglazkov
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  634. # [18:16] <odinho_> dglazkov: When you say good morning, it's always a good time to think about going home from work. ... But then staying another 2-3 hours anyway. :D
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  636. # [18:17] <dglazkov> odinho_: happy to be your alarm clock! :)
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  641. # [18:23] <odinho_> dglazkov: http://dpaste.com/hold/837784/ You're around 17.30 or 17.40, but if not those, then 18.10 is a popular time for you. (for me) :]
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  645. # [18:30] <jgraham> odinho_: Graph plz :p
  646. # [18:31] <dglazkov> jgraham++
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  671. # [19:03] * GPHemsley is glad we don't have to standardize the response to CTCP TIME
  672. # [19:04] <GPHemsley> s/standardize/spec/
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  684. # [19:13] <annevk> So I made that change to the DOM
  685. # [19:13] <annevk> If partial is indeed different from implements / [NoInterfaceObject], I might have introduced a problem, but then I want something better from IDL
  686. # [19:14] <annevk> Oh, timbl just retweeted https://twitter.com/manusporny/status/273124335953268736 lol
  687. # [19:14] <annevk> Maybe I should unfollow timbl, he doesn't reply to my queries and tweets almost exclusively about Linked Data / RDF
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  713. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Can someone with a better DOM understanding of why sync events are usually bad respond in the "Scheduling multiple types of end-of-(micro)task work" thread?
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  716. # [20:02] <Hixie> all events are sync in one sense or another :-)
  717. # [20:02] <Hixie> sync relative to what?
  718. # [20:02] <Hixie> dom changes?
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  720. # [20:03] <Hixie> ah, crap, i lost my big e-mail about menu i was working
  721. # [20:03] <Hixie> ah well
  722. # [20:03] <Hixie> will have to write it again
  723. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> Syncrhonrous with response to layout changes.
  724. # [20:03] <Hixie> yikes!
  725. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I recommend using a real email client. ^_^
  726. # [20:04] <Hixie> you can't do stuff sync with layout changes!
  727. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> Exactly.
  728. # [20:04] <astearns> why is the resize event sync?
  729. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> Legacy error.
  730. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> And a bad, annoying one, given how easy it is to accidentally get into a cyclic situation.
  731. # [20:05] <Hixie> do we even have a spec fore resize?
  732. # [20:05] <Hixie> anyway, resize isn't sync with layout
  733. # [20:05] <Hixie> it's sync with the user interaction event
  734. # [20:05] <Hixie> layout just happens to be sync with every task
  735. # [20:08] <astearns> I think Andrei is thinking that most triggers for regionlayoutupdate will happen with a resize, so it makes sense to have one regionlayoutupdate per resize event, and make them sync with each other
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  739. # [20:16] <smaug____> annevk: ah "And here I was hoping nobody would notice." is the way to write specs :)
  740. # [20:16] <annevk> bz uncovered my secret!
  741. # [20:16] <gsnedders> :o
  742. # [20:16] <Hixie> astearns: making an event sync with resize is fine by me
  743. # [20:17] <Hixie> astearns: just don't tie it to layout
  744. # [20:17] <smaug____> resize event is quite odd one
  745. # [20:17] <astearns> unfortunately, it's tied to the results of layout
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  747. # [20:18] <Hixie> astearns: :-(
  748. # [20:18] <Hixie> i strongly recommend making sure people like roc are in the loop on this
  749. # [20:18] <Hixie> and ms2ger
  750. # [20:19] <smaug____> https://bug457862.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=355244 is a testcase for resize event
  751. # [20:20] <smaug____> looks like FF can handle it, chrome and opera can't
  752. # [20:20] <astearns> Hixie: I would definitely like to get their input
  753. # [20:20] <smaug____> (I thought chrome or some version of webkit did handle that case ok)
  754. # [20:22] <gsnedders> smaug____: I believe they can when it is resize events on plugins
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  756. # [20:24] <smaug____> astearns: FYI, Gecko used to fire resize async, well of a timer, but it was considered as a bug. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=457862
  757. # [20:27] <smaug____> ah, that testcase is too tricky for Gecko too :(
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  761. # [20:40] <annevk> What bz mentions is actually a problem with many HTML APIs too I think. At least I have not done a thorough review of HTML (and SVG) to see if they make sense in context of mutation observers.
  762. # [20:40] <annevk> the context*
  763. # [20:42] <annevk> Of course, if the DOM itself doesn't handle it there's even less hope for others to get it right...
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  778. # [21:25] * GPHemsley notes it is a sad day for User-Agent strings
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  780. # [21:29] <Hixie> new ones getting invented?
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  783. # [21:32] <miketaylr> every day is a sad day for UA strings
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  803. # [22:09] * smaug____ wonders what <a href="javascript: new Date()" download="foo.txt">foo</a> should do
  804. # [22:10] <smaug____> no darin
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  806. # [22:10] <smaug____> he might remember what chrome does
  807. # [22:10] <smaug____> and why
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  809. # [22:19] <jgraham> Wait, what?
  810. # [22:19] <jgraham> download=""?
  811. # [22:20] <jgraham> Did I slip into a time warp and arrive in the future?
  812. # [22:20] <jgraham> Or why have I not heard of this?
  813. # [22:24] <Hixie> it's been in the spec for months now
  814. # [22:25] <Hixie> r6318 2011-07-22
  815. # [22:25] <Hixie> years even!
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  817. # [22:25] <MikeSmith> where "years" means one year and a few months
  818. # [22:26] <annevk> is that what "months" means or are you referring to something else?
  819. # [22:27] <annevk> in other news, writing domintro boxes is boring
  820. # [22:27] <MikeSmith> hah
  821. # [22:27] <annevk> Hixie: we should apply WHATWG to Google Summer of Code so we get some interns that can write domintro boxes
  822. # [22:28] <MikeSmith> oh I bet by "years" Hixie must mean the multiple possible representations of the single resource "year"
  823. # [22:28] <annevk> Hixie: in case it turns out they're smarter than us we can reverse the roles
  824. # [22:30] <jgraham> Hixie: The ping attribute has been in the spec since the dawn of time (or thereabouts) but that doesn't mean anyone knows it exists
  825. # [22:34] <annevk> smaug____: you don't mind if where the spec currently talks about "Text, ProcessingInstruction, or Comment node" I replace that with "CharacterData node" right?
  826. # [22:34] <annevk> same question for anyone else
  827. # [22:34] <smaug____> annevk: right
  828. # [22:34] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  829. # [22:34] <smaug____> annevk: well, the spec talks in some cases only about Text and Comment
  830. # [22:35] <smaug____> in cases where I think it should say CharacterData
  831. # [22:35] <annevk> smaug____: well if it's different it can't be replaced, but we should probably fix those cases per the Gecko bug
  832. # [22:35] <annevk> smaug____: is it really as simple as just replacing Text/Comment with CharacterData there?
  833. # [22:36] <smaug____> when talking about Range, Comment and PI should be - perhaps - handled the same way
  834. # [22:36] <annevk> yeah that makes sense to me
  835. # [22:36] <smaug____> not sure what the spec says about them in other contexts
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  837. # [22:37] <annevk> they're typically grouped, unless ProcessingInstruction.target is important
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  839. # [22:40] <annevk> smaug____: I'll add ProcessingInstruction to the cases in Range now, and won't make the change to rename those instances to CharacterData (at least for now)
  840. # [22:43] <smaug____> k
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  847. # [22:51] <annevk> It seems there's potential for further cleanup in ranges looking at the comments AryehGregor wrote
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  849. # [22:52] <annevk> It seems he didn't dare putting a stake in the ground where he might have been able to a few times, but I'm not sure if it's worth cleaning up either...
  850. # [22:55] <annevk> smaug____: https://github.com/whatwg/dom/commit/677350850145097fc83d8dfe54e5f644f0adcc21
  851. # [22:55] <smaug____> looking in a minute
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  854. # [22:59] <smaug____> annevk: is it possible to see more context in github commits?
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  856. # [22:59] * smaug____ prefers to see at least 8 lines before and after the change
  857. # [22:59] <annevk> I don't know, I've been wondering the same
  858. # [23:00] <annevk> https://help.github.com/articles/search?q=diff+context euh fail
  859. # [23:02] <smaug____> looks good. (a bit hard to review)
  860. # [23:02] <smaug____> would be nice to have some tool for spec change reviewing
  861. # [23:05] <annevk> there's also https://github.com/whatwg/dom/commit/677350850145097fc83d8dfe54e5f644f0adcc21.patch apparently
  862. # [23:07] <annevk> smaug____: yeah, if someone wants to setup critic that's fine with me, I guess for now we rely on GitHub's infrastructure
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  884. # Session Close: Wed Nov 28 00:00:00 2012

The end :)