/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-04 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 04 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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12. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> annevk: Regarding the "return this" decision, Rick is responding adequately in anothr es-discuss thread titled "(Map|Set|WeakMap)#set() returns `this` ?".
13. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> The answer to the "why not delete()?" part of your question is just "baby steps". Rick expects to resolve on that change too.
14. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> (And it has equal use-cases to set() returning this.)
15. # [00:07] <annevk> I'm not on es-discuss
16. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Let me link you, then.
17. # [00:07] <annevk> but I'll take a look tomorrow or so
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19. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Starts here: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2012-December/026811.html
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24. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yo, regarding urls. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/#urls can we refer to something better than RFC3986 now?
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26. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> We have two refs - one to the syntax of urls and escapes, and one to the absolutization of relative urls.
27. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Basically, is the URL spec good enough now for us to point to i?
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29. # [00:20] <annevk> TabAtkins: It defines all the infrastructure, may contain bugs, and does not deal with IDNA yet because nobody has decided how that should work.
30. # [00:20] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm all for referencing it myself, so people complain and yell at me and I can fix more bugs.
31. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Hah.
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33. # [00:21] <annevk> It defines syntax (called URL) and defines parsing #concept-url-parser and the result of parsing a URL is a parsed URL which you can pass to "fetch" (which is a concept that needs a bit more elaboration, it's scheduled to be worked on at some point)
34. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> I'm not worrying about CSS fetch yet.
35. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> I think I can just refer to #concept-url.
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39. # [00:26] <fantasai> annevk: Looking at that... I think that parsing and absolutizing a URL shouldn't be conflated. They're really two separate things, even if you can do them in a single pass.
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41. # [00:26] <fantasai> annevk: Should be able to parse in a relative URL, understand it, and reserialize it without changing its relativeness
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43. # [00:27] <annevk> fantasai: file a bug? be sure to list use cases; "should be able to" does not count :)
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47. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Supporting CSS is a use-case - specified values of urls are whatever you put in, parsed, but computed values are absolutized.
48. # [00:28] <fantasai> Also, an editor would want to be able to parse and understand URLs, but not absolutize everything in the document when they reserialize it out
49. # [00:34] <annevk> TabAtkins: right, that's supported
50. # [00:34] <annevk> fantasai: editing typically requires its own parser anyway, because you would not want to lowercase host names and such either
51. # [00:35] <annevk> fantasai: same e.g. for editing CSS; you wouldn't want your editor to drop -webkit-ballgame
52. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Parsing without dropping unknown values doesn't require anything fancy. You still want to resolve urls as you normally do.
53. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> (You just follow the Syntax spec and don't drop anything for being unrecognized.)
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55. # [00:42] <annevk> TabAtkins: have you looked at the URL parsers in browsers?
56. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Nope!
57. # [00:42] <annevk> TabAtkins: my spec is not based on fiction :)
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59. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure what you mean.
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61. # [00:45] <annevk> what I mean is that the model is parseURL(input, base) -> parsed URL
62. # [00:45] <annevk> or failure*
63. # [00:45] <annevk> anyway, bedtime
64. # [00:45] <annevk> nn
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68. # [00:49] <PaKScripT> Hiya fellas.. seen the channel on one of the 'tutorials' for html 5/javascript apis.
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75. # [01:18] <Hixie> heycam: so the problem is onerror has a different type on HTMLElement and HMTLBodyElement/Window
76. # [01:19] <heycam> Hixie, hmm ok
77. # [01:20] <heycam> wonder if it makes sense just to lose a bit of type information and make the HTMLElement one a bit more general, or to actually have the two onerror properties
78. # [01:20] <heycam> for the other cases like HTMLPropertiesCollection I think it's ok though
79. # [01:21] <Hixie> the whole thing of applying methods from oene object to another is so wacked
80. # [01:21] <heycam> that's why it throws if the target is not a subtype :)
81. # [01:21] <heycam> (of the original interface it was declared on)
82. # [01:22] <Hixie> right but it doesn't make sense to apply the method of the original interface on a subtype if it has a different implementation of that method
83. # [01:22] <heycam> so sometimes it makes perfect sense to apply to it a subtype, and in a few cases you want different behaviour
84. # [01:22] <Hixie> e.g. namedItem from HTMLCollection instances on an HTMLProperiesCollection instance, or the onerror setter of HTMLElement on HTMLBodyElement
85. # [01:23] <Hixie> are there times where it makes sense where the subtype has an explicit definition of its own?
86. # [01:23] <heycam> I guess mostly not
87. # [01:23] <heycam> unless you're are just by chance shadowing the name
88. # [01:23] <heycam> for whatever reason
89. # [01:24] <Hixie> that would be dumb
90. # [01:24] <heycam> well it would yes :)
91. # [01:24] <heycam> what I don't like is embedding knowledge of what subtypes exist in the ancestor interface
92. # [01:24] <heycam> but maybe it's unavoidable
93. # [01:25] <Hixie> well i don't see how else you do this case
94. # [01:25] <Hixie> whatever solution we use
95. # [01:25] <heycam> yeah
96. # [01:25] <Hixie> the real problem is we're doing subclassing in a language without a classical OOP model
97. # [01:26] <Hixie> but that ship has sailed
98. # [01:26] <heycam> I think I prefer the ancestor method to throw if it has an unacceptable sutyped object, than for it to automatically delegate to the overridden method
99. # [01:26] <Hixie> agreed
100. # [01:26] <heycam> should this just be the default?
101. # [01:26] <Hixie> probably the only behaviour
102. # [01:26] <heycam> yeah
103. # [01:26] <heycam> ok
104. # [01:27] <heycam> let's do that
105. # [01:27] <Hixie> if a method/setter/getter from a prototype of interface A is applied to an object that is of an interface B that is a subclass of A, and B defines its own method/getter/setter with the same name, then throw.
106. # [01:28] <heycam> yes
107. # [01:28] <heycam> including if it's something that inherits from B
108. # [01:28] <heycam> (but maybe that's what you meant)
109. # [01:28] <Hixie> right
110. # [01:29] * heycam is in the middle of migrating to a new computer but notes it down to do
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112. # [01:29] <heycam> actually I'll comment in the bug
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114. # [01:29] <Hixie> i'll add this in an e-mail to you
115. # [01:30] <heycam> ok
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119. # [01:32] <heycam> probably no need to mention setters/getters
120. # [01:32] <heycam> since they can't be explicitly got
121. # [01:32] <heycam> and are otherwise captured by methods
122. # [01:32] <Hixie> k
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124. # [01:32] <heycam> but attributes too?
125. # [01:32] <Hixie> by setters/getters i meant attributes
126. # [01:32] <heycam> ah right
127. # [01:33] <heycam> isn't there some stupid thing like SVGDocument.title, or have we fixed that
128. # [01:33] <Hixie> HTML defines Document.title
129. # [01:33] <Hixie> it defers to SVGDocument.title in certain cases
130. # [01:33] <Hixie> SVGDocument and Document are the same interface these days
131. # [01:33] <heycam> yeah
132. # [01:33] <heycam> OK. I guess it should just have the "looking for SVG <title>" built in to it
133. # [01:33] <heycam> and we shouldn't have title at all
134. # [01:33] <heycam> (we = SVG)
135. # [01:33] <Hixie> (and "For historical reasons, Window objects must also have a writable, configurable, non-enumerable property named HTMLDocument whose value is the Document interface object.")
136. # [01:34] <Hixie> that's be fine too, right now i just defer to the SVG spec: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#document.title
137. # [01:34] <heycam> aha :)
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139. # [01:35] <heycam> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#InterfaceSVGDocument
140. # [01:35] <heycam> (though it's now a partial interface Document)
141. # [01:35] <heycam> those three attributes will disappear at some point
142. # [01:35] <Hixie> hah, "For historical reasons, Window objects must also have a writable, configurable, non-enumerable property named SVGDocument whose value is the Document interface object."
143. # [01:35] <Hixie> wonder where that came from!
144. # [01:36] <Hixie> where's the normative prose that defines SVG's Document.title?
145. # [01:36] <Hixie> the IDL only links to the information text below the IDL
146. # [01:36] <Hixie> (e-mail sent)
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148. # [01:37] <heycam> much of SVG is still written in that style you don't like :)
149. # [01:37] <heycam> although the bulletted list under the IDL is probably still counted as normative due to a sentence somewhere in the spec
150. # [01:38] <heycam> saying that UAs must follow these statements or something
151. # [01:38] <Hixie> oh that really is meant to be the definition?
152. # [01:38] <Hixie> that definition is worse than worthless :-P
153. # [01:38] <heycam> it looks a bit crappy
154. # [01:38] <heycam> yeah what if there are two <title>s
155. # [01:38] <Hixie> or if you set it and there are two text nodes
156. # [01:38] <Hixie> oh it's readonly
157. # [01:38] <heycam> is Document's writable?
158. # [01:39] <Hixie> yeah
159. # [01:39] <Hixie> this is more like what this should look like to actually capture what needs to happen: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#document.title
160. # [01:39] <Hixie> that's like a screen's worth of text for what SVG has in one line :-P
161. # [01:39] <Hixie> anyway
162. # [01:39] <heycam> ok. well I'm sure it's fine if it just does the same here.
163. # [01:39] <heycam> oh great, you've already written it :)
164. # [01:39] <Hixie> didn't mean this to become an svg bitchfest, i was actually expecting there to be a definition elsewhere :-)
165. # [01:39] <heycam> lol
166. # [01:40] <heycam> I think there is nothing preventing those three IDL attributes from being removed then
167. # [01:40] * heycam will get to it at some point
168. # [01:40] <Hixie> if you do please file a bug to have the HTML spec define the SVG side of things too
169. # [01:40] <Hixie> or provide a hook or something
170. # [01:40] <zewt> grr, how is it 2012 and almost no HTTP libraries support pipelining
171. # [01:40] <heycam> Hixie, is anything else needed?
172. # [01:41] <heycam> oh yes
173. # [01:41] <heycam> because you just defer to our one
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175. # [01:56] <heycam> MikeSmith, user Nasserbufahad@gmail.com on the W3C bugzilla seems to be causing some havoc
176. # [01:58] <zewt> heh just saw that
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178. # [02:13] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yt?
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180. # [02:14] <Hixie> MikeSmith: Nasserbufahad@gmail.com just corrupted a huge number of bugs
181. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> heycam: Hixie working on it
182. # [02:14] <Hixie> MikeSmith: if you could kill that account and undo all the changes it made, that'd be awesome (might need direct DB access)
183. # [02:14] <Hixie> k
184. # [02:14] <Hixie> oh hey, heycam is ahead of me
185. # [02:15] <heycam> a rare thing
186. # [02:15] <Hixie> dunno about that!
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188. # [02:17] <Hixie> heycam: i don't really have enough knowledge to response to bz's concern about the performance implications about what we discussed earlier
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192. # [02:18] <heycam> Hixie, I don't know what the reason for that is either
193. # [02:21] <Hixie> heh, i like your reply
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196. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> so I shut down Nasserbufahad@gmail.com bugzilla access
197. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> looking through changes he made, so far I only see that he changed the OS value
198. # [02:25] <zewt> he reassigned a bunch to himself
199. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> ah OK
200. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> that I'll revert then
201. # [02:25] <zewt> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15023 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19554
202. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> thanks
203. # [02:25] <zewt> (just ones I happened to get a cc for, so there are probably tons)
204. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> stepping through all of them now
205. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> yeah
206. # [02:26] <zewt> did someone write a "fuck with bugzilla" script or was it slow enough that he was just being an idiot by hand
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209. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> heh he re-assigned some to Hixie as well
210. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> zewt: no idea
211. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> I wasn't seeing them come through in real time
212. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> That means it's probably by hand.
213. # [02:28] <zewt> in other words, a 12-year-old went "haha they let me do this i'll show them"
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216. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> the OS value he changed them to is Windows 3.1
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219. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> this had to be a script
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222. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> some of the changes have a timestamp only 1 second apart
223. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> or actually some even the same time
224. # [02:32] <zewt> does bugzilla have a history system robust enough to pick a batch of changes and undo?
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232. # [02:40] <dbaron> MikeSmith, I suspect he did "reassign to default assignee/qa"
233. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> ok
234. # [02:40] <dbaron> Also, folks, bugzilla has a UI for changing multiple bugs at once
235. # [02:40] <dbaron> it's reasonably powerful
236. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> true that
237. # [02:41] <dbaron> (I think he changed every bug in "CSS Level 2" to Windows 3.1.)
238. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> strangely though, he changed the assignee on some and then also changed it back
239. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> I don't know how to tell what all he changed
240. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> right now I'm just looking at the ones I'm Cced on, but that's a ton because I'm on the default Cc for tons of components
241. # [02:43] <gavin__> if you were using a new bugzilla, you could use page.cgi?id=user_activity.html
242. # [02:43] * gavin__ is now known as gavin
243. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> but not for the CSS componts
244. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> gavin: ah OK
245. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> we're running 4.2.3 I think
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247. # [02:44] <gavin> that may be new enough?
248. # [02:44] <gavin> ah, no
249. # [02:44] <gavin> that may also be a b.m.o-specific thing, not sure
250. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> yeah https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/page.cgi?id=user_activity.html just shows me an error
251. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> "The requested format does not exist with a content type of html."
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253. # [02:45] <dbaron> w3c bugzilla is generally an antique model bugzilla
254. # [02:46] <dbaron> possibly fossilized
255. # [02:46] <gavin> hrm, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/ says 4.2.4
256. # [02:46] <gavin> b.m.o is running 4.0.9+, according to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/
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258. # [02:47] <dbaron> maybe it's just not turning any of the new features on?
259. # [02:47] <dbaron> or all the good stuff is b.m.o-specific?
260. # [02:48] <gavin> (b.m.o bug 764897 confirms that it's on pre-4.2)
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262. # [02:48] <MikeSmith> dbaron: W3C was running a really old version until fairly recently, but upgraded
263. # [02:49] * MikeSmith looks to see if there's an admin option for turning on the user-activity thing
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267. # [02:52] <gavin> I think it's a custom b.m.o extension
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269. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> http://w3.org/brief/MzA0 is the list of remaining bugs where he reassigned to himself
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272. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> gavin: yeah I don't see any parameter for it at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/editparams.cgi?section=index
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278. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> rniwa: that guy changed the OS value on dozens and dozens of bugs
279. # [03:19] <rniwa> MikeSmith: yeah.
280. # [03:19] <rniwa> MikeSmith: it was super annoying :/
281. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> I'm planning to just leave them as-is
282. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> yeah
283. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> I was thinking of changing them back en masse, but I guess that might be equally annoying
284. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> I wish we really could just eliminate that field
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295. # [03:55] <Hixie> MikeSmith: there should be a way at the db level to just revert all his changes
296. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> yeah
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298. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> I sent mail to the systems team about it
299. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> I don't have direct access to the DB myself
300. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> anyway the only destructive changes I can see that he made were the re-assignments, and I've now reverted all of those
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303. # [04:05] <Hixie> MikeSmith: thanks man
304. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> thanks for the heads-up
305. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> was away from e-mail at the time
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365. # [09:11] <kennyluck> Back to Windows 3.1!!
366. # [09:16] <hsivonen> kennyluck: ?
367. # [09:19] <kennyluck> hsivonen, I am getting thousands of Bugzilla mails because a bot (<Nasserbufahad@gmail.com>) changes the OS filed of all bugs in the CSS 2.1 component to Windows 3.1… like this one → https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_activity.cgi?id=15892
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372. # [09:21] <jordanbtucker> hi guys
373. # [09:21] <jordanbtucker> looking at parsing.html#the-stack-of-open-elements, it defines a "current table", but i don't see any other references to the current table in the rest of the spec
374. # [09:22] <jordanbtucker> what is the point of the current table?
375. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: yeah I shut down that account several hours ago
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377. # [09:23] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, great thanks!
378. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> unfortunately not before it managed to send all the spam
379. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> I think I already repaired any of the actual destructive changes it made
380. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> e.g., changed the assignee on some bugs
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385. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> jordanbtucker: I have not clue either what the point of defining "current table" is or was
386. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen might know
387. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> but it's probably worth filing a bug on
388. # [09:28] <jordanbtucker> perhaps it was used for something in a previous version of the parser, but, yeah, i'll file a bug
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392. # [09:37] <annevk> heh nice find
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394. # [09:39] <jordanbtucker> i'm writing a parser
395. # [09:40] <annevk> language?
396. # [09:40] <jordanbtucker> C#
397. # [09:40] <annevk> I did some archaeology and http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-html5-20090212/tree-construction.html seems to still use the concept
398. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> hmm I thought IE8 is supposed to have document.querySelectorAll support
399. # [09:44] <jordanbtucker> interesting
400. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> wonder why the "current table" stuff was removed
401. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> I don't find any mention of it the subversion logs
402. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> maybe 3382?
403. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> yeah
404. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3381&to=3382
405. # [09:47] <annevk> MikeSmith: it's now defined in terms of a "foster parent element" which also uses a table
406. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> ok
407. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: actually it seems like maybe it already was defined in those terms before Hixie removed the current-table bits
408. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> seems like what he changed is, he added the "in table text" insertion mode
409. # [09:50] <hsivonen> Whoa. http://mozilla.github.com/pdf.js/features/ says IE10 doesn’t have XMLHttpRequest.prototype.overrideMimeType()
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413. # [09:53] <annevk> Is there a way to verify whether an object instance in JavaScript is "JSON-safe" without causing that object to execute script?
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416. # [09:56] <Ms2ger> Probably not
417. # [09:56] <hsivonen> hmm. Google keeps having interesting ways of abusing the platform. And then asking for native features.
418. # [09:57] <hsivonen> like loading scripts as multiple <script>s in an iframe
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422. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> so I guess IE8 only supports querySelectorAll in standards mode. and I'm guessing that http://netrenderer.com/ doesn't do its IE8 rendering in standards mode
423. # [10:02] <hsivonen> huh? doesn’t it defeat the point of netrenderer if it doesn’t let IE8 choose its mode like a normal installation would?
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429. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: would think so. But I'm using a simple "if (!document.querySelectorAll) return" and it seems to be returning on that
430. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> otherwise I'm pretty sure I'd be seeing something rendered from the code after that
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432. # [10:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: would you like me to run your test case in real IE8?
433. # [10:08] <karlcow> darobin: not sure if it's a known issue but…
434. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> yeah if you have a minute
435. # [10:09] <karlcow> for example on http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/common-dom-interfaces.html#domstringmap-0
436. # [10:09] <karlcow> click on Table of contents
437. # [10:09] <karlcow> it goes to http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/index.html#contents which is a file not found
438. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwikipedia.com Or actually, any document would do
439. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you should see a "Message filtering" button
440. # [10:10] <annevk> Ms2ger: was afraid of that
441. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> karlcow: hmm yeah
442. # [10:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I see that button in Firefox. I don’t see the button in IE8 on Windows XP.
443. # [10:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Browser Mode: IE8; Document Mode: IE8 Standards
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446. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, thanks. If you have one more minute, lemme remove the "if (!document.querySelectorAll)" check
447. # [10:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Object doesn’t support this property or method, line 8 in /
448. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> oh
449. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> line 8..
450. # [10:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ‘null’ is null or not an object script.js line 488, char 4
451. # [10:13] <hsivonen> line 8 of HTML—not scriptjs
452. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> OK
453. # [10:14] <hsivonen> “‘null’ is null or not an object” is a lovely error message
454. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> heh
455. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: this makes me wonder whether the JavaScript for http://html5.validator.nu/ or http://validator.nu/ works in IE8
456. # [10:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: didn’t work last I checked
457. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> ah
458. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> OK
459. # [10:15] <hsivonen> let’s see
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461. # [10:16] <hsivonen> “‘null’ is null or not an object” happens on validator.nu, too
462. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> ah OK
463. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> man I was worrying about trying to stick to JS features that work IE8. For the validator code, I mean. I guess I don't need to worry about it, huh?
464. # [10:17] <hsivonen> I suppose not unless you also want to fix the old code
465. # [10:17] <darobin> karlcow: yeah, there was a last minute renaming of index.html to Overview.html by the webmaster...
466. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no thanks :)
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469. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: if no IE8 users are currently unhappy enough about not having the parts of the UI that rely on JavaScript to file a bug, they won't miss anything new we add to the UI that needs JavaScript
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471. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> darobin: yeah I wish now he really hadn't done that. I can't remember at this point what his rationale was
472. # [10:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: makes sense
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474. # [10:20] <darobin> MikeSmith: it's okay, I'm fixing the tools to just use Overview.html everywhere next time
475. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> darobin: ok
476. # [10:27] <Smylers> “[20:09] <Hixie> GPHemsley: our shared list...” You have a private list for WHATWG business?
477. # [10:27] <Smylers> I had a look, but it doesn't seem to be publicly archived anywhere.
478. # [10:27] <Smylers> Shocking!
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488. # [11:02] <annevk> o_O
489. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> Hmm?
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491. # [11:03] <annevk> Ms2ger: there's a list for "I want a wiki account" so we don't need to list individual email addresses on the wiki
492. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> Ah, I see
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497. # [11:13] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: iirc, the js code in v.nu is deliberately throwing an exception in ie8 because otherwise ie would crash.
498. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> oh
499. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
500. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> I know the part you mean
501. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> but that's only in the code that handles the message grouping I think
502. # [11:14] <zcorpan> ah, ok
503. # [11:14] <zcorpan> what else is throwing?
504. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> no, I mean that's the only place where we're throwing
505. # [11:15] <zcorpan> ok
506. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> and if/when we add the message-filtering feature, it will replace the current message-grouping feature
507. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> so we should probably move that throw to somewhere else, if we want to keep
508. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> *keep it
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510. # [11:19] <zcorpan> Smylers1: it's archived, but only the Hixie Team have access
511. # [11:19] <zcorpan> (i.e. Hixie and his cats)
512. # [11:19] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@173-228-85-231.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
513. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> Probably still a bigger group than the team-html-* lists
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524. # [11:52] * darobin wonders if he should sign his cat up to team-html-* too
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528. # [12:01] <annevk> ffs
529. # [12:02] <odinho> bffs?
530. # [12:02] <annevk> relList does not have uniqueness right?
531. # [12:03] <annevk> or is the rel="up up up" thing gone?
532. # [12:05] <annevk> and why is class="" not defined as unordered set of unique space-separated tokens?
533. # [12:05] <annevk> Hixie!!
534. # [12:06] <annevk> this probably unlikely to be an effective way of reaching him
535. # [12:06] <jgraham> It is 3am in SF
536. # [12:06] <annevk> I know
537. # [12:06] <jgraham> I imagine that the most successful way to reach him would be to break into his bedroom
538. # [12:06] <jgraham> and tickle his feet
539. # [12:07] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
540. # [12:07] <jgraham> And try and shout your complaint in the time between him waking up and calling the police
541. # [12:07] <annevk> by the time I get there I might as well have waited eight hours
542. # [12:07] <jgraham> You could get someone else to do it for you, I guess
543. # [12:08] <jgraham> There's probably a startup with that as their business model
544. # [12:10] <SimonSapin> http://xkcd.com/163/
545. # [12:10] <annevk> anyway, I guess DOMTokenList already guarantees uniqueness so Hixie should just update rel/class to point that out
546. # [12:10] <annevk> which would make rel="up up up up" as jreschke pointed out long ago, a kinda flawed solution
547. # [12:10] <annevk> which means I can rewrite DOMTokenList to represent an ordered Set
548. # [12:11] <annevk> and then whenever DOMTokenList updates the corresponding attribute is updated
549. # [12:12] <annevk> SimonSapin: apt
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562. # [12:35] <annevk> DOMTokenList represents an ordered set; DOMTokenList update steps update the associated string; DOMTokenList parser takes a string and initializes the DOMTokenList
563. # [12:36] <hsivonen> so someone mentioned yesterday that the CSS WG has a process for dealing with Level 2.1 tests that don’t pass in a compliant Level 3 implementation
564. # [12:36] <hsivonen> is that process documented somewhere?
565. # [12:36] <hsivonen> was sending http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2012Dec/0000.html the right thing to do per that process?
566. # [12:37] <jgraham> Pretty sure referencing W3C Memes for Process is never right per Process
567. # [12:38] <annevk> hsivonen: http://wiki.csswg.org/test has a bunch of pages
568. # [12:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: at least I refrained from referencing http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/35332222321/css-2-1-syndata-is-awesome
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571. # [12:42] <hsivonen> It still troubles me that writing and reviewing http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110323/html4/at-charset-046.htm didn’t lead to a spec change
572. # [12:44] <hsivonen> annevk: I don’t find a policy for this topic there
573. # [12:45] <annevk> me neither :/
574. # [12:45] <hsivonen> oh well. I’ll wait and see what happens
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577. # [12:48] <hsivonen> actually, the test case that matches the meme is http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110323/html4/at-charset-045.htm
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579. # [12:50] <annevk> thanks a lot for following through hsivonen
580. # [12:50] <annevk> still doing your best to get that angel badge ;-)
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586. # [13:02] <darobin> annevk: I hope you'll make good on your TAG promises now that the election is open!
587. # [13:02] <darobin> slightlyoff: that's for you too
588. # [13:02] <darobin> and marcosc
589. # [13:03] <darobin> and wycats_ :)
590. # [13:03] <annevk> darobin: by that I take it you mean to post to www-tag?
591. # [13:03] <marcosc> annevk made promises?
592. # [13:03] <darobin> annevk: yup
593. # [13:03] <darobin> he promised to campaign properly
594. # [13:04] <darobin> four seats for four horsemen
595. # [13:04] * Simetrical- is now known as Simetrical
596. # [13:04] <hsivonen> how many votes per Member?
597. # [13:04] * Quits: Simetrical (~Simetrica@109.226.31.149) (Quit: Leaving)
598. # [13:04] <darobin> hsivonen: up to four, to be cast on distinct individuals
599. # [13:04] <hsivonen> darobin: ok
600. # [13:04] * Joins: Simetrical (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical)
601. # [13:05] * Simetrical is now known as AryehGregor
602. # [13:05] * marcosc looks at www-tag for the first time ever.
603. # [13:05] <darobin> some members have already voted so I reckon you ought to get your campaign going
604. # [13:05] <marcosc> at least they don't send a lot of email
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606. # [13:06] <AryehGregor> Wait, annevk wants to be on the TAG? Won't that just result in giant flamewars?
607. # [13:06] <zcorpan> is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=816045#c8 a spec bug?
608. # [13:06] <annevk> darobin: thanks for the heads up, will try to get to it before the end of the week
609. # [13:07] <darobin> coolness
610. # [13:07] <darobin> AryehGregor: depends on who gets elected
611. # [13:07] <darobin> amongst the candidates, there are annevk, slightlyoff, marcosc, and wycats_ — if they all get elected it could lead to interesting changes :)
612. # [13:07] <AryehGregor> darobin, that sounds like "yes, but you can't prove it".
613. # [13:08] <darobin> nah, actually I think if the results turn out right it could prove constructive
614. # [13:08] <AryehGregor> Also, I thought the TAG theoretically has no power per Process and is really just a way for the Director to claim he's not acting unilaterally.
615. # [13:13] <AryehGregor> Anyway, even if you take over the TAG, that will just put it at loggerheads with the AC.
616. # [13:13] <jgraham> AryehGregor: What the process *says* isn't important. It's about what people percieve.
617. # [13:13] <AryehGregor> Oh well, I gave up on W3C process ages ago.
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620. # [13:16] <annevk> AryehGregor: Is your point that we should not try?
621. # [13:17] <AryehGregor> Yes, I think the W3C is fundamentally a lost cause, because it's ultimately controlled (financially) by the Members, who mostly are not qualified to have opinions on anything.
622. # [13:18] <marcosc> ouch
623. # [13:19] <AryehGregor> A standards body that's controlled by a vote of organizations with only minor or tangential stakes in the web cannot be expected to produce useful policies.
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625. # [13:19] <darobin> that's all a rather broad mischaracterisation :)
626. # [13:19] <annevk> AryehGregor: Irrespective of whether that's true, there's no other suitable body that offers patent protection and participation from Microsoft. So trying to somehow reform the body seems like it's worth a shot.
627. # [13:19] <AryehGregor> The correct structure needs to be de facto control by implementers.
628. # [13:19] <AryehGregor> Well, good luck.
629. # [13:19] <darobin> the Director has power, and in my experience doesn't need anyone's blessing to act
630. # [13:20] <darobin> being "at loggerheads with the AC" is something that I don't even understand in the TAG context
631. # [13:20] <darobin> (having been both an AC rep and a TAG member)
632. # [13:20] <AryehGregor> I suppose the AC isn't involved directly in much that's important, so you could work around it.
633. # [13:20] <AryehGregor> I'm mostly thinking of the licensing issue.
634. # [13:20] <darobin> the licensing issue is not a TAG decision
635. # [13:21] <AryehGregor> I know, it's an AC decision, right?
636. # [13:21] <darobin> yup
637. # [13:21] <AryehGregor> That's my point about the AC.
638. # [13:21] <AryehGregor> If the AC gets to make those decisions, they'll be wrong.
639. # [13:21] <darobin> sometimes, not always
640. # [13:21] <AryehGregor> Wasn't the AC also what decided to not allow Web Apps 1.0 to be hosted at the W3C to start with?
641. # [13:21] <darobin> though you won't get disagreement from me on the licensing issue
642. # [13:22] <darobin> AryehGregor: note that it's the AC that brought us RF in the first place
643. # [13:22] <darobin> AryehGregor: hmmm, no
644. # [13:22] <hsivonen> RF is the W3C’s greatest achievement
645. # [13:22] <hsivonen> RF is still the main value W3C provides
646. # [13:23] <darobin> thank the AC, then ;-)
647. # [13:23] <hsivonen> makes the silliness of copying and pasting WHATWG specs in the W3C worthwhile
648. # [13:23] <AryehGregor> I should probably just stay quiet here, because I tend to lose interest as soon as anyone tries to tell implementers what to do.
649. # [13:23] <AryehGregor> The AC "brought us" RF, or just were willing to approve it?
650. # [13:23] * Joins: odinho_ (~odinho@office.oslo.opera.com)
651. # [13:23] * darobin tries to remember last time someone "told implementers what to do"
652. # [13:24] <odinho_> Who is Nasserbufahad, and why does he think all spec bugs are related to Windows 3.1?
653. # [13:24] <darobin> AryehGregor: it's from a long time ago, but if the RF policy had been decided by implementers alone, we probably wouldn't have it
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655. # [13:24] <marcosc> odinho_: yeah, that guy needs a banning.
656. # [13:25] <odinho> odinho_: WTF. /me slaps odinho_
657. # [13:25] <darobin> just suggesting that the industry and the way(s) in which it congregates can be complex and fluctuating
658. # [13:25] * Quits: odinho_ (~odinho@office.oslo.opera.com) (Client Quit)
659. # [13:25] <darobin> anyway, I need to skedaddle
660. # [13:25] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Remote host closed the connection)
661. # [13:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: maybe by default new users should not have editbugs on w3.org?
662. # [13:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: at least if this happens again I'd be for that, because this was crazy
663. # [13:26] <marcosc> agreed
664. # [13:26] <AryehGregor> Or have flood protection for editbugs, if Bugzilla supports it.
665. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> it used to be that way but then we had to manually give people editbugs, which is also a PITA and makes me the bottleneck
666. # [13:27] <AryehGregor> Random users shouldn't need to modify more than three bugs in any 24-hour period.
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668. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: yeah, some kind of flood protection sure would make a lot more sense
669. # [13:27] <AryehGregor> Soft security!
670. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> but the thing is, there are some times when we need to mass-change hundreds of bugs at once
671. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> e.g., we did that to clone all the HTML spec bugs a while back
672. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> anyway, question: without using querySelectorAll, if I have some elements that are class="foo bar" and some that are class="foo", is there any good way (other than manually walking the tree) that I can select just the class="foo" elements only?
673. # [13:29] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, why without qSA?
674. # [13:29] <odinho> MikeSmith: Y U invent arbitrary restrictions? :|
675. # [13:29] <AryehGregor> How about getElementsByClassName() and then filter?
676. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> heh
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678. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: filter by iterating through the resulting nodelist?
679. # [13:30] <odinho> I'd like to do this querySelectorAll thing, but it's too long to type, so how can I do it in some other way? :P
680. # [13:30] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, yes.
681. # [13:30] <AryehGregor> Either with a loop, or .filter().
682. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> not using qSA because I don't need it for anything else in this script. Just using getElementsByClassName for everything else
683. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: OK
684. # [13:31] <AryehGregor> That seems like an arbitrary restriction.
685. # [13:32] <odinho> Presumably to support older browsers, though you didn't hear that from me!
686. # [13:32] <odinho> I like my bubble where I just code for the new stuff. :D
687. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> I could switch everything to using qSA but I think the performance of that is worse, right?
688. # [13:33] <AryehGregor> Is this script so performance-sensitive that it would make a difference?
689. # [13:33] <AryehGregor> Are you talking about trees with many thousands of nodes with a function being run many times per second?
690. # [13:34] <AryehGregor> CSS selectors are extremely fast. I doubt it would be a problem unless you're doing something exciting.
691. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> ok
692. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> this is definitely not exciting
693. # [13:35] <AryehGregor> (also, you *can* use qSA only in the places you need it, y'know -- you don't get extra points for minimizing the number of distinct functions used)
694. # [13:35] <AryehGregor> I personally use qS(A) for everything and don't bother with the older-style functions unless I have a very specific reason.
695. # [13:35] <odinho> Shouldn't be slower for the common cases. Implementation should have a fast path for those. That's my opinion, now I pay everyone 2c (?)
696. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> heh
697. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: OK
698. # [13:36] <AryehGregor> The selector here would probably be something like "[class=foo]" or ".foo:not(.bar)", which is unlikely to hit fast paths AFAIK.
699. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> yeah, just "[class=foo]"
700. # [13:37] <jgraham> If you don't get points for minimising the number of functions used, what the hell was jQuery doing?
701. # [13:39] * Joins: yorick (~quassel@unaffiliated/yorick)
702. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> hey btw is there a way to make Opera correctly display a button as a button if it doesn't have any form ancestor?
703. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> I mean without writing all the button styling
704. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> which I've already done now so perhaps my question is moot
705. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> still, I'm curious
706. # [13:46] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: What doesn't work? <html><button>foo</button> WFM
707. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: hmm yeah
708. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> so now I'm wondering why it wasn't working when I tried it
709. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> hmm yeah but I tried it again and it's definitely not in this case
710. # [13:50] * MikeSmith tries to make a reduced test
711. # [13:51] <gsnedders> No foreignObject around?
712. # [13:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: [class=foo] won't match class="foo "
713. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, that's OK
714. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> I'm generating that "foo" values so I know they don't have spaces
715. # [13:57] <annevk> hackydyhack
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720. # [14:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: any update yet on just having WHATWG/URL in Bugzilla?
721. # [14:05] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@p5098a42b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
722. # [14:05] <annevk> Is there any specification outside of HTML that uses DOMTokenList and/or DOMSettableTokenList?
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725. # [14:06] <annevk> jgraham: did you or someone else create classList testcases?
726. # [14:06] <annevk> jgraham: some of them might need to be updated after I have rewritten this
727. # [14:06] <annevk> (and implementations too)
728. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: I thought I added it already
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732. # [14:12] <jgraham> annevk: Yes, I or someone else created them
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734. # [14:12] <jgraham> But I don't remember which
735. # [14:12] <jgraham> Which does sort of suggest someone else
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742. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: ah OK yeah I haven't talked to Art yet
743. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> will ask him now
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749. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: talked with Art and has I expected he's not going amenable to dropping the component
750. # [15:03] <annevk> so he favors two components?
751. # [15:03] <annevk> I guess he can keep his useless component then and confuse people all over :/
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753. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> yeah I don't think I am going to convince him
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755. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> so anyway, given that, I will make sure to move over myself any bugs filed there
756. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> maybe I can write a script to do it automatically
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760. # [15:10] <annevk> the component in WebAppsWG is empty
761. # [15:10] <annevk> it's just that people might stumble upon it
762. # [15:10] <annevk> and Art's copy of the URL draft doesn't even refer to it
763. # [15:10] <annevk> does he even know what he's doing?
764. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> he knows what he's doing
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767. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> he's stuck with the consequences of trying to chair a WG under W3C policies that he has no control over and doesn't necessarily agree with
768. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> he's one of the best chairs we have
769. # [15:13] <annevk> there's no policy on bug components though
770. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> and he's working in good faith
771. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> yeah I know
772. # [15:14] <annevk> e.g. the i18n WG does not care about it
773. # [15:14] <annevk> sorry, I18N WG
774. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> that may be just because they're not actually paying attention
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777. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> most people aren't paying attention
778. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> Art pays attention
779. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> and stays on top of things
780. # [15:15] <annevk> I discussed it with the chairs
781. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> ah OK
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784. # [15:16] <annevk> arv: in a normal timezone by any chance?
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789. # [15:29] <arv> annevk: Normal by my standard at least
790. # [15:29] <annevk> arv: so for all arity methods, do we want to support the empty sequence?
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792. # [15:30] <annevk> arv: or do we want to make a distinction, perhaps at IDL level too, between 0 or more and 1 or more
793. # [15:31] <arv> annevk: yes. or let me clarify, ...foo means foo can be an empty array. If we want at least one of it we need to have one required param and on rest param (foo, ...fooRest)
794. # [15:31] <arv> annevk: for the DOM mutation methods I don't see a reason to restrict to 1+
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796. # [15:32] <annevk> from an IDL perspective having "foo..." and "optional foo..." makes more sense to me
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798. # [15:33] <annevk> I guess I'm fine with the DOM mutation methods supporting 0
799. # [15:33] <annevk> it seems weird to have optional and not use it for arity given this use case
800. # [15:34] <arv> Why do we want to diverge from JS, Python, Java, C# here and make ...foo mean 1+ arguments?
801. # [15:35] <annevk> I guess we don't, it just seems illogical
802. # [15:36] <arv> you don't need to include optional in the type spec either. ... means optional
803. # [15:37] <annevk> sure
804. # [15:37] <annevk> I guess my perspective is that when I right the spec I don't want to talk about foo and fooRest as if they're separate
805. # [15:37] <annevk> I only care about a collection of foo objects and that there's at least one of them
806. # [15:38] <annevk> s/right/write/ o_O
807. # [15:38] <annevk> I would imagine I'd like the same in type-constrained code :-)
808. # [15:39] <arv> Fair enough. It does make spec prose more verbose but on the other hand idl and prose often drift apart
809. # [15:40] <arv> There are two options. One is to only write this requirement in prose. The other one is to be more verbose. Your call ;-)
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811. # [15:41] <zewt> well, the other option is to add syntax to webidl, so the verbosity is encapsulated in the dispatch
812. # [15:41] <zewt> (don't know all the context, but FWIW i agree that things like DOM "append these items" methods should definitely accept 0)
813. # [15:42] <annevk> Yeah, the moment we give people a "your call" our APIs will start to diverge, but that is happening anyway :/
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816. # [15:43] <annevk> I thought requiring optional DOMString... was kinda neat (for 0 or more), but if ... is expected to mean optional in so many places I guess that's not gonna fly
817. # [15:44] <zewt> what it means in the IDL doesn't need to correspond to what a similar-looking token means in JS, though
818. # [15:45] <zewt> (i'm assuming this is a new JS feature, from context--don't know where to look for a description, and "..." is 100% ungooglable)
819. # [15:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: document.querySelectorAll('[class=foo]')
820. # [15:46] <annevk> zewt: arv seems to disagree and in general people are already uncomfortable with IDL being so "alien"
821. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, thanks
822. # [15:47] <zcorpan> oh i see you reached that conclusion later
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825. # [15:48] <arv> zewt: http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:specification_drafts It has been in the ES6 drafts for a year maybe and it is available in Firefox since a few months back
826. # [15:48] <zewt> annevk: it's defining typed interfaces and inheritance trees, it's inherently not at all javascript
827. # [15:48] <zewt> no sense pretending it is, IMO
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829. # [15:49] <arv> zewt: WebIDL only describes JS. There are no other bindings defined.
830. # [15:49] <zewt> also if it's "...foo" in JS and the more common "foo..." in the idl, that makes them pretty clearly different
831. # [15:49] <zewt> arv: doesn't matter, the webidl language is not javascript
832. # [15:49] <arv> zewt: Who are we pretending we are not serving JS only?
833. # [15:50] <zewt> uh, I didn't say it's not only used for javascript
834. # [15:50] <zewt> i said it isn't javascript
835. # [15:50] <arv> zewt: But we are only serving JS so we might as well stop pretending we are trying to define APIs that can be used from any language
836. # [15:51] <zewt> ... i didn't say anything about that
837. # [15:51] <arv> zewt: so aligning the semantics has high value
838. # [15:51] <arv> as well as syntax where possible
839. # [15:51] <zewt> the webidl language and the javascript language basically have nothing in common, so that makes no sense
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841. # [15:52] <arv> zewt: I'm not ok with that. I think that is an issue by itself
842. # [15:53] <zewt> unless you're planning on redefining webidl from scratch, i think "oh well" :)
843. # [15:53] <arv> these are living standards
844. # [15:53] <arv> when we add new features we should align them when possible
845. # [15:53] <zewt> you're free to try to convince everyone to make a new idl language, but today what we have is webidl
846. # [15:53] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the "show all" and "hide all" links have the visited style, which looks annoying
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848. # [15:56] <zewt> annevk: fwiw, another idea off the top of my head is eg. "DOMString{1,}...", though I suppose that's overcomplicated if all you'll ever want is 0+ and 1+
849. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: what should I change them to? no color? blue?
850. # [15:57] <annevk> maybe DOMString...+
851. # [15:57] <zcorpan> blue
852. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> ok
853. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> will do
854. # [15:57] <annevk> but it seems so inconssitent with the rest of IDL
855. # [15:57] <zewt> hmm
856. # [15:57] <zcorpan> which APIs want 0+?
857. # [15:58] <zewt> i'd expect 0+ to be the majority and 1+ to be rare
858. # [15:58] <annevk> zcorpan: append/prepend in DOM
859. # [15:58] <annevk> 1+ is URLQuery.set I guess
860. # [15:58] <zewt> typically you wouldn't want foo.apply(foo, list_of_stuff) to fail if list_of_stuff happens to be empty
861. # [15:59] <zewt> (unless it has to)
862. # [15:59] <annevk> although URLQuery.set could be 0+ too, it would just mean the same as URLQuery.delete when passed with 0
863. # [15:59] <zcorpan> annevk: why do append/prepend want 0+?
864. # [15:59] <zewt> could say "DOMString+", and not have a syntax for 1+ at all (do that in prose if it comes up)
865. # [16:00] <annevk> zcorpan: convenience
866. # [16:00] <annevk> zewt: arity is already DOMString...
867. # [16:00] <annevk> don't need a syntax for that :)
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869. # [16:00] <zcorpan> annevk: convenience for "Run the mutation method macro."?
870. # [16:01] <annevk> zcorpan: no
871. # [16:01] <annevk> zcorpan: for people using the methods
872. # [16:01] <zewt> zcorpan: the question is the opposite--why would you want to cause an error if it's <1
873. # [16:01] <zewt> if what the caller wants is obvious, then you're just introducing unneeded errors and making people sprinkle extra conditionals around
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875. # [16:02] <zewt> eg. python's list.extend method doesn't throw if the parameter is empty
876. # [16:03] <zcorpan> ok
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878. # [16:04] <gsnedders> Zero is the base-case, fairly intuitively. It is the case where you do no mutation, otherwise you process each list member.
879. # [16:04] <gsnedders> Till the list is empty, recursively.
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881. # [16:05] <zcorpan> but calling it with no arguments would run the mutation method macro. i'm not familiar enough with that area of the spec to tell if it's no-op or not
882. # [16:06] <annevk> oh there might be bugs there
883. # [16:06] <annevk> I didn't know arity could be 0 at the time
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888. # [16:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: article:first-of-type { ... } also wouldn't work, since it selects multiple articles if they aren't sibilngs
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891. # [16:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: OK. please take my failure to write a proper selector as amplifying my point.
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893. # [16:24] <zcorpan> i can't think of a selector that does what you want
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895. # [16:25] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: what selector do you want?
896. # [16:25] <zcorpan> "first <article>"
897. # [16:26] <SimonSapin> first … of the whole document?
898. # [16:26] <zcorpan> yep
899. # [16:26] <SimonSapin> I don’t think selectors can do that
900. # [16:26] <SimonSapin> not without post-filtering
901. # [16:27] <zcorpan> what do you mean with post-filtering?
902. # [16:28] <SimonSapin> getting results from a selector, and then doing something else
903. # [16:28] <SimonSapin> in JS maybe
904. # [16:29] <SimonSapin> or in this particular case, just using querySelector()
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913. # [16:46] <annevk> SimonSapin: it's not the speculative parser, it's just how <img> works
914. # [16:46] <SimonSapin> is it?
915. # [16:47] <SimonSapin> I have a pages with dozens of SVGs in <object> with a PNG <img> fallback each, only the first few PNGs are loaded
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917. # [16:50] <annevk> afaik there's nothing in <img> loading that looks at the parent
918. # [16:50] <annevk> might that the spec and/or browsers have a bug
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922. # [16:52] <gsnedders> I thought object fallback only loaded when needed?
923. # [16:52] <SimonSapin> annevk: I don’t know. I see this is both Firefox and Chromium
924. # [16:59] <marcosc> is it normal that when onload of an image fires in Chrome it does not have a target set?
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926. # [17:07] <annevk> you mean .target is null?
927. # [17:08] <annevk> that sounds kinda unlikely
928. # [17:08] <annevk> arv: so I think implementations of DOMTokenList can be optimized a little bit
929. # [17:09] <annevk> arv: e.g. class="test test foo "; classList.remove("test") -> class="foo"
930. # [17:09] <arv> annevk: I just started writing a bug for that
931. # [17:10] <arv> annevk: We should just split the string into an ordered set, then remove the token and the serialize back to a string
932. # [17:10] <annevk> right
933. # [17:11] <annevk> that's what the spec will end up saying, it just doesn't propagate setAttribute("class", ...) modifications yet
934. # [17:11] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: the context here was in a CSS stylesheet
935. # [17:12] <annevk> arv: one question about that
936. # [17:12] <annevk> arv: when do browsers check which attribute was changed versus when they queue the mutation record?
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939. # [17:13] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: then no, not possible with a single selector, without any assumption about the structure of a document
940. # [17:13] <annevk> arv: I set "class"; "class" attribute is changed; do "class" specific steps; queue record
941. # [17:13] <annevk> arv: or maybe queue record; do "class" specific steps
942. # [17:13] <arv> annevk: I'm not sure... let me check
943. # [17:13] <annevk> I guess it doesn't matter since mutation observers run afterwards regardless, but it might matter when debugging I guess
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945. # [17:18] <arv> annevk: we set the attribute data before we do the attribute specific handling... The queuing happens after both of those.
946. # [17:20] <annevk> thanks
947. # [17:20] <annevk> I guess it's about time we make the specs more specific about that
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953. # [17:34] <Masklinn> How would one go about sending feedback on a whatwg spec, a use case concerning a spec not for instance? Through the mailing lists, through mailing the editor directly, something else?
954. # [17:35] <Masklinn> s/not/note/
955. # [17:35] <annevk> Masklinn: IRC/bug reports/mailing list
956. # [17:35] <annevk> Masklinn: preferably feedback is publicly tracked, but if it's a small thing you can decide to contact the editor directly
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958. # [17:36] <annevk> Masklinn: see also "Participate" in the spec
959. # [17:37] <Masklinn> annevk: bug report? ah yes, I was looking at the whatwg home page (which does not mention the bug tracker)
960. # [17:38] <Masklinn> annevk: and I managed to completely miss the fixed "submit review comment" control, shame
961. # [17:38] <Masklinn> annevk: sorry for the bother, and thanks for the answer
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963. # [17:41] <Hixie> whatwg.org/newbug also
964. # [17:41] <Hixie> if you want a detailed reply, e-mail is better
965. # [17:41] <Hixie> if you want a place you can go to track progress in dealing with the issue, bug report is better
966. # [17:43] <Hixie> btw, the admin@wiki.whatwg.org address is just an alias to GPHemsley, me, and annevk, not technically a list. There's no discussion there.
967. # [17:44] <Hixie> There is a private WHATWG list (has the charter members on it, for things like coordinating the copyright stuff), but it gets basically zero traffic and i send updates about any traffic that it does get to the main whatwg list each time.
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971. # [17:54] <annevk> I'm not on admin@, but I've no desire to be either :)
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974. # [17:54] <Hixie> just me and GPHemsley?
975. # [17:54] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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978. # [17:55] <annevk> Hixie: I think so, but maybe you subscribed annevk@opera.com or so? :-)
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993. # [18:06] <GPHemsley> jreschke++
994. # [18:07] <jgraham> Don't see that on here much
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999. # [18:08] * gsnedders wonders why
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1002. # [18:11] <jgraham> Why we don't see it much or why GPHemsley is incrementing him?
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1007. # [18:14] <gsnedders> The latter.
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1011. # [18:18] <GPHemsley> gsnedders: If I wait long enough, jreschke responds to mailing list messages for me.
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1013. # [18:19] <wycats_> AryehGregor: have some faith
1014. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> Hixie: You cannot let annevk get away with not getting user registration requests!
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1075. # [19:52] <Hixie> jonlee: yt?
1076. # [19:52] <Hixie> jgraham: yt?
1077. # [19:52] <Hixie> hober: yt?
1078. # [19:54] <annevk> What's the hashtag for TAG elections? #tagelections?
1079. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> The TAG on twitter? Hehehehe
1080. # [19:54] <annevk> I thought I'd tweet that Polyglot Markup is syntax, not architecture.
1081. # [19:55] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@17.212.154.114)
1082. # [19:55] <annevk> Hixie: http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=New_Features_Awaiting_Implementation_Interest&curid=2569&diff=8867&oldid=8864 seems like an incorrect edit
1083. # [19:56] <annevk> Hixie: the thread has nothing to do with progress events for <img>
1084. # [19:56] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
1085. # [19:56] <Hixie> hashtags are only useful for things people want to read about :-P
1086. # [19:56] <Hixie> oops, wrong row
1087. # [19:56] <Hixie> heh
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1093. # [20:03] <annevk> Hixie: oh you
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1095. # [20:04] <marcosc> Hixie: given "large 2x, small 1x" and a pixel density of 1.1, is "large 2x" chosen?
1096. # [20:04] <Hixie> i don't recall; follow the algorithm and see :-)
1097. # [20:04] <marcosc> I did, and got large 2x
1098. # [20:05] <marcosc> but that seems kinda bad
1099. # [20:05] <Hixie> then large 2x is probably the right answer
1100. # [20:05] <Hixie> you generally want the image that's higher density than your display, if you don't have an exact match
1101. # [20:06] <Hixie> since scaling down is prettier than scaling up
1102. # [20:06] <Hixie> (you can lose bits, but can't invent them)
1103. # [20:06] <marcosc> understood
1104. # [20:06] <Hixie> if it's close, though, iirc the algorithm does let the UA decide exactly what the cut-off should be
1105. # [20:07] <Hixie> and if the user zooms, the old images don't disappear until the new ones are ready
1106. # [20:09] <marcosc> Hixie, unless I missed something, there doesn't seem to be any error events fired if a source can't be gotten. Is that right?
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1108. # [20:10] <Hixie> you mean for the automatic updates that happen on zoom?
1109. # [20:10] <Hixie> or for the initial load?
1110. # [20:10] <marcosc> I think for both, but certainly for automatic updates
1111. # [20:11] <Hixie> for automatic updates, if the image can't be fetched, then the browser just pretends it didn't update, yeah
1112. # [20:11] <Hixie> for the initial load, the 'error' event is fired two lines below the 'load' event.
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1114. # [20:11] <marcosc> ok, I was really wondering about the automatic update one
1115. # [20:12] <marcosc> I guess that can be checked in the network tab of developer tools
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1117. # [20:12] <marcosc> a dev could see a 404 there
1118. # [20:12] <marcosc> or whatever
1119. # [20:12] <Hixie> my theory was that onerror means that the <img> is broken, and the image isn't broken in this case, it just keeps its previous image
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1121. # [20:14] <marcosc> Hixie, that seems ok to me... I guess as long as the browser spits something out on the console, then it should be fine
1122. # [20:15] <Hixie> k
1123. # [20:15] <marcosc> thanks!
1124. # [20:15] <Hixie> if the spec is unclear, please don't hesitate to file bugs
1125. # [20:16] <Hixie> either with the tool in the spec or whatwg.org/newbug or e-mailing the list
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1127. # [20:16] <marcosc> no, it's pretty clear. The problem is that I've been implementing in JS and it's not really possible to implement this part of the spec.
1128. # [20:17] <marcosc> There is just not enough information to do a 1 to 1
1129. # [20:17] <marcosc> available in the HTMLImageElement interface, that is
1130. # [20:17] <marcosc> like, there is no readyState for images
1131. # [20:17] <marcosc> and there is no way to check the mimetype directly
1132. # [20:18] <marcosc> etc., or there is no way to check if an error already occured
1133. # [20:18] <marcosc> The parsing was fairly straight forward
1134. # [20:18] <Hixie> yeah. it's intended for browsers to implement :-)
1135. # [20:18] <marcosc> Browsers, pfff! :)
1136. # [20:19] <Hixie> if something is entirely implementable in JS, there's really not much point putting it in teh spec
1137. # [20:19] <Hixie> it could just be done in JS :_)
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1139. # [20:20] <marcosc> Yeah, absolutely. Prollyfillin has been good though, because it helps people understand the problem space
1140. # [20:20] <marcosc> Like the 1.1 thing above ... and there are some other things that are confusing
1141. # [20:20] <marcosc> and some that are just ergonomic issues like I keep typing x1 instead of 1x
1142. # [20:21] <Hixie> shims are fine, but i do think there's been a kind of obsession with them recently
1143. # [20:21] <Hixie> amongst the web author community
1144. # [20:21] <Hixie> anyway, it's not bad
1145. # [20:21] <marcosc> you mean like, prollyfill.org ? :)
1146. # [20:21] <Hixie> i'm just not used to it
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1148. # [20:22] <Hixie> i know not this prollyfill.org thingy
1149. # [20:22] <Hixie> btw, the premise at the top of http://briankardell.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/w3c-extensible-web-community-group/ is wrong
1150. # [20:23] <Hixie> the bottleneck in standards development right now is not the standards
1151. # [20:23] <Hixie> it's the browser vendors
1152. # [20:23] <Hixie> we're writing specs so fast the vendors can't implement them fast enough
1153. # [20:23] <marcosc> yeah, I agree
1154. # [20:23] <Hixie> (not a criticism of anything, just an observation)
1155. # [20:24] <marcosc> I personally don't care where the bottleneck is. It's nice to have a way to try out ideas
1156. # [20:24] <othermaciej> some have the impression that even if a spec is written and widely implemented but not officially finalized, that proves standards are too slow
1157. # [20:24] <othermaciej> even though such cases have little effect on ability of web content authors to use the technology
1158. # [20:25] <marcosc> what that group wants to do is really find where the pain points are ... probably once we have Web Components at lot of those pain points go away
1159. # [20:26] <marcosc> well, some do... but limitations like I pointed out in HTMLImageElement's interface will remain for a while (if not forever)
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1161. # [20:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: indeed. or vice versa, when a spec is "finalised" but has no implementations, that it mans standardisation is slow (when really it means either implementation priorities are the bottleneck, or that the spec is not actually finished at all, despite the editors' wishes)
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1163. # [20:28] <othermaciej> I guess CSS is a special case here because they ask implementors to expose "not officially finalized" in syntax
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1167. # [20:32] <jgraham> Hixie: I'm here
1168. # [20:33] <Hixie> jgraham: has opera any input on <menu>?
1169. # [20:35] <jgraham> Hixie: Subject to the usual provisos that we don't discuss roadmap, etc. etc. I am not aware of any specific plans. Although I believe the context menu support in our extensions API might be something like the spec?
1170. # [20:36] <Hixie> jgraham: mainly i'm looking for thumbs-up or thumbs-down on either what's in the spec now or one of the proposals to vary it that were sent to the list recently
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1172. # [20:37] <jgraham> Yeah, so I read the email
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1174. # [20:37] <jgraham> But I'm not sure that I have thought hard enough to have a useful opinion
1175. # [20:37] <jgraham> Certainly it seems that what's in the spec isn't being implemented :|
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1177. # [20:38] <Hixie> well, yeah, so that's my question... what will you implement :-)
1178. # [20:38] <Hixie> if anything :-)
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1186. # [20:52] <annevk> marcosc: pain points that go away will be replaced by others
1187. # [20:52] <annevk> marcosc: and when that stops there's a new platform on the rise
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1190. # [20:53] <marcosc> annevk: ok, so lets just stop all this web platform nonsense now :)
1191. # [20:54] <annevk> marcosc: I dropped "web" years ago :p
1192. # [20:55] <marcosc> heh, be cool to rename this hatwg :)
1193. # [20:55] <Hixie> annevk: dom core doesn't seem to support Window being at the top of the tree for event dispatch, btw
1194. # [20:55] <Hixie> annevk: anyway i'm looking at how to do event redispatch, and i don't think the way we're doing it is going to work
1195. # [20:56] <Hixie> annevk: because right now it requires every single spec that fires an event to go define redispatching steps
1196. # [20:56] <annevk> Window you make work by saying that for the purposes of event dispatch, it's the furthest ancestor of that tree
1197. # [20:57] <Hixie> annevk: what we need instead is a way for the HTML spec to define the tree, which includes Window and what the global object should be (since different Event objects need different prototype objects), and for the events to be dispatched like now and for the dispatching to automatically apply that tree, cloning the event object accordingly
1198. # [20:58] <Hixie> annevk: some events will need some specific rules, e.g. we need a way to figure out how to handle the different targets of focus events
1199. # [20:58] <Hixie> annevk: when focus goes from one iframe to another, and those iframes are in an iframe that is in another iframe, then the event should only be targetted up one level, not bot
1200. # [20:59] <Hixie> h
1201. # [20:59] <Hixie> the current thing for Window is a hack
1202. # [20:59] <Hixie> it contradicts what DOM core says
1203. # [20:59] <annevk> I'm pretty sure I explained somewhere in a bug how it should be written
1204. # [21:00] <Hixie> you require the dispatching steps to be invoked with redispatching steps
1205. # [21:00] <Hixie> but that doesn't work
1206. # [21:00] <Hixie> the dispatching steps are all over many specs
1207. # [21:00] <Hixie> we can't go and update a dozen specs to do this
1208. # [21:00] <Hixie> this has to happen for all events
1209. # [21:00] <Hixie> not just the ones that want it
1210. # [21:01] <Hixie> e.g. it needs to happen for dispatchEvent()
1211. # [21:01] <annevk> I was talking about Window
1212. # [21:02] <Hixie> re Window, right now the spec says to dispatch on "ancestors", and defines "ancestors" indirectly via your definitions of tree, but Window doesn't have "an ordered list of zero or more child objects"
1213. # [21:02] <annevk> in this context it does have one child object, Document
1214. # [21:02] <annevk> in the "event tree"
1215. # [21:03] <Hixie> that's a hack
1216. # [21:03] <annevk> how is it a hack?
1217. # [21:03] <Hixie> the spec says "An object that participates in a tree has [...] an ordered list of zero or more child objects"
1218. # [21:03] <Hixie> this is false for Window
1219. # [21:03] <annevk> in the context of events it participates in a tree
1220. # [21:03] <Hixie> right, the spec pretends that it's the DOM tree, but only for events, not for appendChild()
1221. # [21:04] <Hixie> that's just weird and hacky
1222. # [21:04] <annevk> no there's all kinds of trees
1223. # [21:04] <annevk> I specifically defined trees separately from node trees exactly because of this
1224. # [21:04] <Hixie> right but the only tree that is relevant to event dispatch is the DOM tree
1225. # [21:04] <Hixie> anyway my point is that we can fix this all at once when we fix redispatching
1226. # [21:04] <annevk> given Window that seems false
1227. # [21:05] <Hixie> because you can just have the host spec define the tree
1228. # [21:05] <Hixie> and it can include Window
1229. # [21:05] <Hixie> instead of saying "it's part of the tree in this case but not that one"
1230. # [21:05] <annevk> we're getting close to the point where I'd rather have HTML define all this
1231. # [21:06] <annevk> but I guess we can try to pretend there's a separation for a little longer
1232. # [21:06] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
1233. # [21:07] <Hixie> well i don't really understand why y'all want dom core to not rely on html, but that's your problem :-)
1234. # [21:08] <Hixie> i don't mind how we define it
1235. # [21:08] <Hixie> so long as it's defined
1236. # [21:08] <Hixie> ideally without having to jump through hoops and contortions
1237. # [21:08] <annevk> I think that's mostly Ms2ger at this point
1238. # [21:09] <annevk> So when spec A says "dispatch E" it somehow needs to obtain a contextual tree from HTML if it's dispatched on either a node or Window?
1239. # [21:10] <annevk> I don't really see how to write this down in a way that remains comprehensible.
1240. # [21:11] <annevk> On top of that, how does DOM know when there's a boundary crossed in the tree it is provided and it needs to invoke the event cloning steps?
1241. # [21:11] <Hixie> the boundary is always above the Window
1242. # [21:11] <annevk> (As an aside, does it use the same object for capture and bubble? So does it need to keep track of the subtrees somehow?)
1243. # [21:11] <Hixie> how to define it... this only happens for DOM nodes, so I guess the HTML spec could define it for Document objects
1244. # [21:12] <Hixie> so:
1245. # [21:12] <Hixie> at the lowest level (the "real" target) it works like now
1246. # [21:12] <Hixie> at the higher levels, the target is always an iframe
1247. # [21:12] <annevk> oooh there's still a target?
1248. # [21:12] <Hixie> and it is as if the event was dispatched on the iframe, except you don't get a target phase
1249. # [21:13] <Hixie> it just bubbles and captures through it
1250. # [21:13] <annevk> oh
1251. # [21:13] <Hixie> or we could have a target phase i guess
1252. # [21:13] <Hixie> i don't really mind
1253. # [21:13] <Hixie> dglazkov might
1254. # [21:13] <Hixie> i guess it has to have a target
1255. # [21:13] <Hixie> otherwise you could tell it was retargetted
1256. # [21:13] <annevk> you don't want to expose that?
1257. # [21:14] <Hixie> well consider the web components / xbl case
1258. # [21:14] <Hixie> if you have a click on a button
1259. # [21:14] <Hixie> you don't care that the button has a dozen <div>s
1260. # [21:14] <Hixie> you just think it's a button
1261. # [21:14] <Hixie> should work just like today
1262. # [21:14] <Hixie> it's less important form seamless events
1263. # [21:14] <Hixie> for
1264. # [21:14] <annevk> makes sense
1265. # [21:15] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
1266. # [21:15] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
1267. # [21:15] <annevk> but what is the order? capture phase all the way down, target bubble target bubble target bubble ...
1268. # [21:15] <Hixie> (for xbl/web comp, the higher levels, the target is the web component, not an iframe)
1269. # [21:15] <annevk> or capture target bubble capture target bubble ...
1270. # [21:16] <Hixie> it's definitely capture (target) capture (target) capture target bubble (target) bubble (target) bubble
1271. # [21:16] <Hixie> i dunno which of the (target)s are where targetting should go
1272. # [21:16] <Hixie> each scope has to have a clone of the event
1273. # [21:17] <Hixie> but e.g. if the inner level cancels the event, the outer level should have its event updated accordingly too
1274. # [21:17] <annevk> maybe there should be a shared event object that's exposed as a separate JS object in each tree?
1275. # [21:18] <annevk> that's gonna require some pretty invasive changes though :-(
1276. # [21:19] <annevk> Hixie: target / bubble should probably go together
1277. # [21:20] <Hixie> i've been saying it's gonna require invasive changes for some time :-)
1278. # [21:21] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.180.158.119) (Quit: nn)
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1282. # [21:22] <annevk> so I guess that's what http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#events is about...
1283. # [21:23] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1284. # [21:23] <annevk> but http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#event-dispatch seems broken
1285. # [21:24] <annevk> Hixie: Window is not always the furthest ancestor for shadow trees
1286. # [21:24] * Quits: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1287. # [21:25] <annevk> Hixie: in any event, I won't have time to work on this I think until Feb at least
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1292. # [21:30] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
1293. # [21:31] <Hixie> annevk: k
1294. # [21:31] <Hixie> annevk: (what's the highest ancestor of a shadow tree?)
1295. # [21:31] <annevk> Hixie: I think it's ShadowRoot
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1297. # [21:32] <annevk> Hixie: I would expect shadow trees to also want private events though
1298. # [21:32] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1299. # [21:33] <Hixie> yeah
1300. # [21:33] * smaug is now known as smaug____
1301. # [21:33] <Hixie> i don't really know that side as well
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1303. # [21:33] <annevk> so you can't really say this is the tree, these are the JS event object scopes within the tree, make it happen
1304. # [21:34] <Hixie> maybe we just need to hook something to the root of the tree (Document, ShadowRoot)
1305. # [21:34] <Hixie> that says what to do
1306. # [21:34] <Hixie> and DOM Events hooks into that
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1308. # [21:35] <Hixie> I expect I'll write a draft of a section that does this for HTML later today for seamless, and just add a note saying that you expect to get to this in DOM Core in feb
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1310. # [21:37] <annevk> if you keep calling it DOM Core it might become August :p
1311. # [21:37] <Hixie> what's it called?
1312. # [21:37] <annevk> just DOM
1313. # [21:38] <Hixie> well that's confusing :-P
1314. # [21:38] <Hixie> that's as bad as the HTML spec being called HTML
1315. # [21:38] <Hixie> possibly worse :-P
1316. # [21:38] <annevk> you see, I didn't think that was bad :)
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1319. # [21:42] <annevk> Hixie: so it would be useful to know the details for the various MouseEvent objects and such
1320. # [21:42] <annevk> Hixie: based on that we can then figure out if we need cloning or something more sophisticated
1321. # [21:42] <Hixie> yes
1322. # [21:43] <Hixie> a user interaction spec would be a good start :-)
1323. # [21:44] <annevk> but this is some massive suckage
1324. # [21:44] <annevk> e.g. you invoke preventDefault()
1325. # [21:44] <annevk> tada, problems with definitions everywhere
1326. # [21:44] <Hixie> yup
1327. # [21:44] <Hixie> the web evolves
1328. # [21:44] <Hixie> :-)
1329. # [21:45] <annevk> so you can introduce an abstract event concept which is dispatched and is exposed via a duplicated Event object that acts as an interface for the abstract event
1330. # [21:46] <annevk> but then all events everywhere need to acknowledge that somehow I suppose
1331. # [21:46] <annevk> and define how their respective attributes would interface in various event scopes
1332. # [21:47] <annevk> and this fails for cross-origin
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1334. # [21:48] <Hixie> events usually have readonly attributes
1335. # [21:48] <Hixie> so that's not as hard as it looks, i expect
1336. # [21:49] <Hixie> btw if you can convince people to not do event retargetting, that works for me
1337. # [21:49] <Hixie> might be easier, dunno :-)
1338. # [21:49] <annevk> I guess where it's hard is UI events
1339. # [21:49] <Hixie> focus, mouse movements
1340. # [21:50] <Hixie> that might be it, dunno
1341. # [21:50] <annevk> although even there you might be able to define mouse movements as a function rather than as predefined values
1342. # [21:50] <annevk> dunno about focus
1343. # [21:50] <Hixie> mutation events, but i suggest we just don't propogate those, if we even admit that they exist
1344. # [21:51] <annevk> yeah, we don't acknowledge them and we're not going to make those more complex either I hope
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1347. # [21:53] <annevk> so yeah, I guess DOM would have "event tree" which for nodes is the "node tree" unless redefined in other contexts (HTML)
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1349. # [21:53] <annevk> and then it would have "event scopes" which are magic and cannot be explained without features from HTML and prolly shadow DOM
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1353. # [21:55] <annevk> and it would define "abstract event" which is dispatched throughout the "event tree" is exposed per "event scope" as Event, which basically is an interface for everything "abstract event", but shields that from the scripting environment
1354. # [21:55] <annevk> Hixie: does that sound about right?
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1357. # [22:00] <annevk> Hixie: reopened https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18780
1358. # [22:00] <Hixie> actually i think maybe it should be more concrete than that
1359. # [22:01] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
1360. # [22:01] <Hixie> maybe the dom spec can actually construct the tree itself by just walking the dom and when it gets to an object that defines a scope it uses the data from that object
1361. # [22:01] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@81-231-170-159-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
1362. # [22:01] <Hixie> and then the other specs just have to hook into that
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1382. # [22:38] <Yuhong> My hope for the TAG is to get them to finish this: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/
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1386. # [22:42] <Yuhong> Hixie: IE10RP Win7
1387. # [22:43] <Yuhong> log: onsubmit start
1388. # [22:43] <Yuhong> log: action set in onsubmit before submit()
1389. # [22:43] <Yuhong> log: onsubmit end
1390. # [22:43] <Yuhong> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1974
1391. # [22:43] <Yuhong> For http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1979:
1392. # [22:43] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
1393. # [22:44] <Yuhong> ""with submit(), return false": goes to /.
1394. # [22:44] <Yuhong> ""without submit(), return false" does nothing.
1395. # [22:44] <Yuhong> "with submit(), return true": "Document"
1396. # [22:45] <Yuhong> "without submit(), return true": "Document"
1397. # [22:45] <Yuhong> All in IE10 mode.
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1399. # [22:46] <Hixie> cool, thanks
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1401. # [22:47] <hober> Hixie: what's up?
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1403. # [22:53] <annevk> Hixie: hmm interesting, and then Document outside a browsing context would not define a scope, etc?
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1405. # [22:54] <annevk> Hixie: I guess you could then do some kind of loop for all the collected trees to do the dispatch thingie
1406. # [22:54] <annevk> Hixie: you'd still have the whole abstract event -> Event mapping mess though
1407. # [22:55] <Hixie> hober: looking for apple's input on <menu> stuff
1408. # [22:55] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, there's no getting away from it being complicated if we do this, i think
1409. # [22:56] <hober> Hixie: i'll try to drum some up
1410. # [22:56] <annevk> o_O
1411. # [22:56] <annevk> Ms2ger got a formal warning
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1413. # [23:00] <annevk> I wonder why non-WHATWG people always misspell WHATWG (I've seen WHAT-WG, WHAT WG, WhatWG, ... Is it some kind of lame attempt at showing disrespect? If you're gonna talk about it as if it were an entity, at least get the name right.)
1414. # [23:05] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
1415. # [23:08] <tantek> annevk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
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1417. # [23:11] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
1418. # [23:12] <annevk> tantek: fair
1419. # [23:12] <annevk> tantek: for some reason spelling mistakes in names upset me the most
1420. # [23:13] <tantek> annevk, I think you'd be used to it by now, although it's certainly taken me years ;)
1421. # [23:13] <annevk> (which is why adactio refers to me as "Anne Van Kesteren")
1422. # [23:14] <tantek> with the miscapitalization of "Van" [sic] ?
1423. # [23:15] <annevk> tantek: I wish I was, I'm over HTML5 WG now, or XForms WG (actually Forms WG), or HTML WG when they meant XHTML2 WG, but WHATWG still irks me
1424. # [23:15] <annevk> tantek: yeah, although the rules for that are kinda brutal. If you omit the first name you have to capitalize it.
1425. # [23:15] <tantek> oh interesting
1426. # [23:16] <annevk> and it sorts under K, whereas in Sweden a similar name would sort under v, so it's better to sort on full name :-)
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1429. # [23:19] <tantek> so: <span class="h-card"><span class="p-name">Anne van Kesteren</span> - if you omit his given name, you have to capitalize <span class="p-family-name">Van <span class="p-sort-string">Kesteren</span></span></span>
1430. # [23:20] <tantek> :)
1431. # [23:20] <annevk> what do you know, tantek's got markup for that :-)
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1438. # [23:24] <tantek> annevk - perhaps if you added it to your web page more folks might notice
1439. # [23:24] <tantek> e.g.
1440. # [23:24] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.107.125)
1441. # [23:24] <tantek> change this: <footer>Copyright © 2003-2012 Anne van Kesteren</footer>
1442. # [23:24] <tantek> to:
1443. # [23:25] <tantek> <footer>Copyright © 2003-2012 <span class="h-card"><a class="p-name p-url p-uid" href="http://annevankesteren.nl/">Anne van Kesteren</span>. If and only if you omit his given name, please capitalize "<span class="p-family-name">Van <span class="p-sort-string">Kesteren</span></span>"</span>.</footer>
1444. # [23:25] <tantek> sorry, correction:
1445. # [23:25] <tantek> <footer>Copyright © 2003-2012 <span class="h-card"><a class="p-name u-url u-uid" href="http://annevankesteren.nl/">Anne van Kesteren</span>. If and only if you omit his given name, please capitalize "<span class="p-family-name">Van <span class="p-sort-string">Kesteren</span></span>"</span>.</footer>
1446. # [23:25] <tantek> :)
1447. # [23:25] <tantek> certainly adactio would have to respect that ;)
1448. # [23:27] <tantek> one more correction (darn closing tags)
1449. # [23:27] <tantek> <footer>Copyright © 2003-2012 <span class="h-card"><a class="p-name u-url u-uid" href="http://annevankesteren.nl/">Anne van Kesteren</a>. If and only if you omit his given name, please capitalize "<span class="p-family-name">Van <span class="p-sort-string">Kesteren</span></span>"</span>.</footer>
1450. # [23:27] <tantek> apparently my markup (or cognitive in general) skills are reduced post-torn-calf-muscle :/
1451. # [23:27] * Quits: snowfox_ben_NOM (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: snowfox_ben_NOM)
1452. # [23:28] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
1453. # [23:28] <annevk> that seems a bit excessive; is there some kind of compact thingie yet? Would be nice if this filled in all the expected classes without having to specify them: <h1 class=h-card><a href="/">Anne van Kesteren</a></h1>
1454. # [23:28] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1455. # [23:28] <annevk> it's beyond me why you'd want class=u-url on an <a> for instance
1456. # [23:28] <annevk> <a> means URL :-)
1457. # [23:29] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
1458. # [23:29] <tantek> <h1 class=h-card><a href="/">Anne van Kesteren</a></h1> works
1459. # [23:30] <tantek> once you start adding the extra stuff like family-name and sort-string, you have to make the other parts explicit too
1460. # [23:30] <annevk> oh sweet
1461. # [23:30] <tantek> actually, let me try something in the php-mf2 parser
1462. # [23:31] <tantek> oh sweet, the implied property rules I specified for the URL property work just fine when there's only one URL
1463. # [23:32] <tantek> thus slightly shorter:
1464. # [23:33] <tantek> <footer>Copyright © 2003-2012 <span class="h-card"><a class="p-name" href="http://annevankesteren.nl/">Anne van Kesteren</a>. If and only if you omit his given name, please capitalize "<span class="p-family-name">Van <span class="p-sort-string">Kesteren</span></span>"</span>.</footer>
1465. # [23:34] <tantek> you can try it for yourself here: http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/
1466. # [23:35] <Hixie> how is "DOM" still a WebApps product component
1467. # [23:35] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
1468. # [23:37] <annevk> Hixie: I didn't change any of that
1469. # [23:37] * Joins: victor2 (~Adium@AAubervilliers-651-1-67-39.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr)
1470. # [23:37] <Hixie> i don't care, except i can never find "WebAppsWG" in the list
1471. # [23:37] <Hixie> since it sorts below "Web "
1472. # [23:39] * Quits: victor2 (~Adium@AAubervilliers-651-1-67-39.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Client Quit)
1473. # [23:41] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.76.154) (Remote host closed the connection)
1474. # [23:41] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
1475. # [23:42] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1476. # [23:42] <annevk> there's a link at the top of the spec if you're lost; I'll count this towards changing if it ever comes up
1477. # [23:43] <Hixie> i was searching for the events bug
1478. # [23:44] * Joins: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
1479. # [23:44] <annevk> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18780
1480. # [23:44] <Hixie> yeah i found it
1481. # [23:44] <annevk> oh, was, doh :)
1482. # [23:44] <Hixie> before i complained here :-)
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1486. # [23:46] <Hixie> annevk: so i guess for event redispatching actually the only thing that actually needs to be defined is the link from the Window to the <iframe>
1487. # [23:46] <Hixie> annevk: well, that plus the event-specific stuff
1488. # [23:46] <Hixie> but I mean as a general rule for disepatching
1489. # [23:47] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
1490. # [23:48] <annevk> I think what I want is that dispatching acquires a collection of trees
1491. # [23:49] <annevk> it starts by doing the capture phase on the outermost tree, inwards; then does the target + bubbling phase, outwards
1492. # [23:51] <annevk> for each tree it creates an associated event object which proxies a shared abstract event object
1493. # [23:51] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1494. # [23:51] <annevk> what I haven't quite mentally figured out is how exactly the acquiring of trees is gonna work
1495. # [23:52] <annevk> in a DocumentFragment it's pretty clear it's just that, in a standalone Document it's just that too, but when there's browsing contexts it gets icky
1496. # [23:53] <Hixie> sounds about right
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1498. # [23:54] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-156.net-89-2-152.rev.numericable.fr) (Quit: Leaving.)
1499. # [23:54] <Hixie> can't you just walk the tree and when you get to the root, say "if the object has a defined <dfn>scope object for event dispatch</dfn>" (so I can give you the Window) and "if the node has a defined <dfn>surrogate event redispatch parent</dfn>" and start walking up from that again?
1500. # [23:54] <Hixie> and I just have to tell the Document that it has those objects
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1502. # [23:55] <Hixie> and then we're done
1503. # [23:55] <Hixie> well except for the event cloning
1504. # [23:55] <Hixie> and magic with focus and mouse stuff
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1508. # [23:56] <dglazkov> Hixie, annevk: I am back now, do I need to read the whole scrollback?
1509. # [23:56] <Hixie> we're talking about how to spec event redispatch
1510. # [23:57] <dglazkov> I feel a headache coming on
1511. # [23:57] <Hixie> hah
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1513. # Session Close: Wed Dec 05 00:00:00 2012

The end :)