/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 06 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: that'd be a quick way to make the htmlwg spec obviously inferior to the whatwg one, so i'm on board ;-)
  4. # [00:00] <gsnedders> Hixie: All you have is an end tag.
  5. # [00:00] <gsnedders> I do know what the spec says. ;)
  6. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> we start with this dude's proposal, for the <sentence> element
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  9. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> from now on, you mark up every single sentence in your documents with the <sentence> element
  10. # [00:02] <annevk> his homepage uses interesting markup for someone who wants to introduce new markup
  11. # [00:02] <annevk> -> http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/
  12. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> wow
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  15. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> hey I like the part of that page that lets you send as many SMS messages to his mobile as you want, at no cost
  16. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> makes you wonder why more people don't just add something like that to their Web pages
  17. # [00:05] <Hixie> i think every space should have an element
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  19. # [00:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: good, now you're thinking semantically
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  21. # [00:07] <MikeSmith> I think every lack of a space where there should have been one should have an element
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  25. # [00:08] <annevk> Asian father meme? Element for every sentence? Why not for every character?
  26. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> annevk: you got the pedal to the metal man
  27. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> that's the kind of thinking that will earn you your rightful place on the TAG
  28. # [00:12] <annevk> MikeSmith: you might want to consider voting for the guy with five patents
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  37. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> heh
  38. # [00:24] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  39. # [00:25] <MikeSmith> in other news, I seriously like the way the new co-chair of the Tracking Protection WG framed his request for comments
  40. # [00:25] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Nov/0338.html
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  42. # [00:26] <MikeSmith> "We ask that you emphasize no more than 3 points and do your submission in no more than 300 words. (To help you be brief, we will prioritize in our reading the comments that comply with the limits.)"
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  45. # [00:26] <Hixie> hey that's a good idea, i should do that
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  47. # [00:26] <Hixie> "please only send me easy feedback"
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  49. # [00:27] <MikeSmith> yeah, maybe doesn't fit for all cases, but still seems like a good way to encourage people to attempt to be concise
  50. # [00:28] <Hixie> honestly the verbosity of the feedback isn't that big a deal
  51. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> some people have a habit of doing the opposite and it's a chore to read through their messages and try to see what point they're trying to make
  52. # [00:28] <Hixie> though there are some extremes
  53. # [00:28] <Hixie> i'll grant you
  54. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  81. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> /set activity_hide_targets #webkit #chromium
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  83. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> /set activity_hide_targets #webkit #chromium
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  90. # [01:51] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/mid/m24nk01371.fsf@eoconnor.apple.com
  91. # [01:51] <karlcow> "We support Microdata proceeding on the REC track—just to name one reasno, WebKit and Gecko both have implementations."
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  94. # [01:52] <karlcow> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/microdata-and-the-microdata-dom-api/
  95. # [01:52] <karlcow> fwiw ;)
  96. # [01:53] <karlcow> Though I have been trying to use Microdata API and I found it confusing. I guess I didn't grasp yet how it should be working.
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  98. # [01:55] <hober> OK, I really need to stop my brain for thinking of cards for Web Standards Cards For Humanity
  99. # [01:56] <hober> e.g. Given the black card "Life for American Indians was forever changed when the White Man introduced them to _____." Play the white card "the 5 February 2004 W3C Patent Policy."
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  114. # [02:33] <tantek> karlcow - I like how everyone who writes a metadata article has to create a gratuitous reinvention of vCard / hCard etc. for their examples, thus immediately misleading authors into thinking they should all make up their own vocabularies. It's like XML hell all over again.
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  116. # [02:35] <tantek> and I think the microdata API is only there in order to provide a spec-hook for the parsing algorithm, that is, some sort of developer accessible reason for existing. I don't know of anyone who actually makes any use of the microdata API in practice.
  117. # [02:35] <karlcow> tantek: not sure what it refers to. But I guess business card is a kind of "hello world" of metadata.
  118. # [02:35] <tantek> to me it (the *API* in particular) just as bad of a solution looking for a problem as many other kinds of things that get quickly derided.
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  120. # [02:36] <tantek> a business card may be a kind of "hello world" of metadata, but then it should be used to promote vocabulary re-use first and foremost, not making up new vocabularies (and thus sending developers down an unproductive / non-interop path.
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  123. # [02:37] <tantek> p.s. clever .ro spam comment at the end of that article
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  125. # [02:38] <karlcow> tantek: aaaaaah you are talking about the article on dev.opera?
  126. # [02:38] * karlcow was lost
  127. # [02:40] <karlcow> I was just mentioning to hober that microdata API was supported in Opera since Presto 2.9 http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto29/
  128. # [02:40] <karlcow> ~2011
  129. # [02:44] <karlcow> For the MicroData API, I haven't really understood yet how the API helps to walk the graph of metadata to extract values.
  130. # [02:46] <karlcow> I must be doing something wrong
  131. # [02:46] <karlcow> https://gist.github.com/4221190
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  174. # [04:55] <Hixie> man, i am absolutely amazed by the lack of professionalism being shown by people in public-webapps
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  176. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I know what you mean but I'm amazed that you're amazed
  177. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> if in fact you're sincere about being amazed
  178. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> people can lead themselves to absurd conclusions once they have decided to not fix the real problems
  179. # [05:02] <Hixie> i actually am amazed
  180. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> ignore the core problems, pretend they're not problems at all, then start rationalizing from there
  181. # [05:03] <Hixie> i have seen all kinds of weird stuff at the w3c, but lack of professionalism towards others to this level i haven't seen before
  182. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> yeah
  183. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> it's dogmatic
  184. # [05:03] <Hixie> i mean, at first i kinda assumed people just didn't realise copying people was off
  185. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> of course they realize it's wrong
  186. # [05:03] <Hixie> but after that's been mentioned and pointed out, trying to justify it is crazy
  187. # [05:04] <Hixie> and the latest thing in www-archive saying that really the problem is just that ms2ger is pseudonymous is utter bs
  188. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> it's like any other kind of blind devotion to an instiution
  189. # [05:04] <Hixie> i mean, that brings it to a new level
  190. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> well that's not "people"
  191. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> that's one person
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  193. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> who's at the most extreme end
  194. # [05:05] <Hixie> that specific issue, yes
  195. # [05:05] <Hixie> but the broader one isn't
  196. # [05:05] <Hixie> i mean, each of these specs has multiple "editors" listed
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  198. # [05:10] <zewt> Hixie: i can honestly say that charles trying to censor ms2 is one of the most offensive things i've ever seen on a "professional" mailing list
  199. # [05:10] <Hixie> yeah that's a great example of what i mean
  200. # [05:10] <zewt> wonder if gmail lets me plonk people because i really don't want to read anything he has to say
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  211. # [06:04] <Hixie> is this specced anywhere? http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=3766
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  213. # [06:07] <Hixie> anyone know anything about DOMFrameContentLoaded?
  214. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: dunno but it looks like FF and Chrome both pass it now, right?
  215. # [06:08] <Hixie> yeah it's more the <font> behaviour i'm worried about
  216. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> oh
  217. # [06:08] <Hixie> the test, that is, the CSS stuff, is specced in the CSS and Unicode specs, i think
  218. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> ok
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  223. # [06:53] <MikeSmith> tantek: has there been any decision yet about dropping the ime-mode property from CSS UI?
  224. # [06:53] <MikeSmith> I see it's still marked "at risk" in the latest ED
  225. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/
  226. # [06:55] <tantek> MikeSmith - do you have a preference?
  227. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> tantek: not really. I can ask the devs working on the IME API if they do
  228. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> I guess if we go forward with the IME API maybe we don't need the ime-mode property
  229. # [06:57] <tantek> basically, ime-mode is in IE5+ and FF3+
  230. # [06:57] <tantek> it is at risk because we don't know how interop those are
  231. # [06:57] <tantek> if they're interop, then it stays, if not, then it gets dropped during CR
  232. # [06:57] <tantek> make sense?
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  234. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> tantek: makes sense
  235. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> thanks
  236. # [07:00] <tantek> np
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  250. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/5593cd83590e is nice
  251. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> 2.1 --- a/js/src/jsarray.cpp
  252. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> 1.2 +++ b/js/src/builtin/array.js
  253. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> by way of David Bruant on twitter https://twitter.com/DavidBruant/status/276349760317829120
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  255. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> and "Indeed, we took the basic concepts from V8."
  256. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> flashback to the summer of 2008
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  259. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~dufour/pubs/dls2011.pdf
  260. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/Tachyon-Team/Tachyon/tree/master/source
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  300. # [09:41] <Smylers> The sample rendering images in ‘HTML for Developers’ are wrong in a mildly amusing way: http://developers.whatwg.org/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#range-state-%28type=range%29
  301. # [09:41] <Smylers> (Also reported properly as an issue on GitHub.)
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  303. # [09:43] <Ms2ger> Smylers, these come straight from the spec, no?
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  305. # [09:43] <Smylers> They're displayed fine in the full spec.
  306. # [09:43] <Smylers> I'm presuming they're being distorted by CSS specific to the developers remix.
  307. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> Oh, hmm
  308. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> I don't see that
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  341. # [11:00] <zcorpan> Smylers1: problem being that the images don't load? maybe they're not listed in the manifest?
  342. # [11:03] <Smylers1> Ms2ger: Hmmm, seems to be Firefox-specific.
  343. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> I use Firefox ;)
  344. # [11:03] <Smylers1> I just checked in Chromium and IE, and it's fine in those.
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  346. # [11:04] <Smylers1> Ms2ger: Odd.
  347. # [11:04] <Smylers1> Ms2ger: I'm seeing the problem on both Firefox 17.0.1 on Linux and 16.0.2 on Windows.
  348. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> I'm on 20-something/Linux
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  350. # [11:06] <Smylers1> zcorpan: The problem (which now seems only to affect me, albeit on two different computers with no shared accounts) is that the images are stretched to being the full width of the paragraph, but keep their intrinsic height. For tall thin images it's very distorting.
  351. # [11:06] <zcorpan> oh
  352. # [11:07] <Smylers1> Ah, using the Ctrl+Shift+I thingy and clicking on a stretched image I see
  353. # [11:07] <zcorpan> maybe the width is used from laying out the alt text?
  354. # [11:07] <Smylers1> section[role="main"] img { width: 100%; }
  355. # [11:08] <Smylers1> That's in the file handheld.css.
  356. # [11:08] <darobin> section[role="main"]? shouldn't you be using <main> instead?
  357. # [11:08] * darobin crawls back under his bridge
  358. # [11:08] <Smylers1> Presumably handheld.css isn't supposed to be active in a desktop browser.
  359. # [11:08] <Smylers1> darobin: Tee-hee.
  360. # [11:08] <zcorpan> that style rule also seems a bit bogus
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  362. # [11:09] <zcorpan> possibly max-width:100%; height:auto; makes sense
  363. # [11:09] <darobin> indeed
  364. # [11:09] <Smylers1> zcorpan: Indeed. That sounds better.
  365. # [11:09] <Smylers1> Has anybody got an actual handheld device to check it on?
  366. # [11:10] <zcorpan> what's your window width?
  367. # [11:11] <zcorpan> <link href="/css/handheld.css" rel="stylesheet" media="screen and (max-width: 959px)">
  368. # [11:11] <Smylers1> 873px, it turns out
  369. # [11:11] <Smylers1> Ah.
  370. # [11:11] <Smylers1> 873px doesn't seem small to me. It lets me fit an 80-character terminal window next to it on this widescreen laptop.
  371. # [11:12] <zcorpan> if you have a monitor, try holding it in your hand and see if the image appears more comfortable.
  372. # [11:12] <Smylers1> As expected, going full-screen fixes things.
  373. # [11:13] <darobin> Smylers1: the break point at which to switch to handheld is debatable, but the CSS for images is wrong anyway so fixing that would be the best bet IMHO
  374. # [11:14] <Smylers1> darobin: Yup.
  375. # [11:14] <darobin> also, if you're debugging you're probably much, much better off removing the manifest
  376. # [11:15] <Smylers1> I've just tried zcorpan's suggestion in the Ctrl+Shift+I thingy, and it seems to work.
  377. # [11:15] <Smylers1> darobin: manifest?
  378. # [11:15] <darobin> Smylers1: appcache manifest, on the root html
  379. # [11:16] <darobin> besides, it's a weird use of appcache given that the images are in a NETWORK block
  380. # [11:16] <Smylers1> darobin: What's that do?
  381. # [11:16] <darobin> it causes it to be cached for offline use
  382. # [11:16] <darobin> during development, it's a world of pain
  383. # [11:17] <Smylers1> darobin: When I first viewed the page Firefox asked me if I wanted to install the site for offline use. (I said ‘no’.) Is that what does it?
  384. # [11:17] <darobin> yup
  385. # [11:18] <Smylers1> darobin: Ta.
  386. # [11:18] <darobin> Smylers1: you want to read this before touching any content that relies on appcache: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/application-cache-is-a-douchebag/
  387. # [11:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: the spec for DOMFrameContentLoaded is http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsDocument.cpp#4128
  388. # [11:18] <darobin> none of what's in that article is an exaggeration, in fact he's rather mellow considering
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  398. # [11:41] <Smylers1> Pull request sent: https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/pull/73
  399. # [11:41] <Smylers1> Thank you everybody for the help.
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  407. # [12:00] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: thanks (re www-style)
  408. # [12:02] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: sure
  409. # [12:02] <SimonSapin> so you’d favor making the whitespace really optional?
  410. # [12:03] <SimonSapin> the thing is, it’s a pain to express in the grammar: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-conditional/#at-supports
  411. # [12:03] <zcorpan> yeah, that seems like it would result in fewer WTWTFs from authors
  412. # [12:03] <zcorpan> i understand that it's a pain for the spec
  413. # [12:04] <zcorpan> priorities...
  414. # [12:05] <darobin> SimonSapin: are there any plans to make at-rules acceptable in a @supports condition?
  415. # [12:06] <darobin> e.g. @support (@font-face) ...
  416. # [12:06] <SimonSapin> darobin: isn’t that the case already?
  417. # [12:06] <darobin> I thought it wasn't, maybe I'm wrong
  418. # [12:06] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-conditional/#contents-of
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  420. # [12:08] <darobin> SimonSapin: unless I'm reading the grammar wrong that's for the content of the @support's body
  421. # [12:08] <darobin> so @supports (foo: bar) { @allowed-here... }
  422. # [12:08] <SimonSapin> darobin: sorry I misread your question
  423. # [12:09] <darobin> I was thinking about @supports not (@page) { approximate page stuff somehow }
  424. # [12:09] <SimonSapin> In @support (…) the … must be a declaration
  425. # [12:09] <darobin> right
  426. # [12:10] <SimonSapin> but we changed the syntax to allow @support some_functional_notation(…)
  427. # [12:10] <SimonSapin> unknown functions are always false, but future levels can add functions
  428. # [12:10] <darobin> heh, if your initial reply had been correct then the grammar would accept @supports not (@supports) {…} :)
  429. # [12:10] <darobin> that makes sense
  430. # [12:11] <SimonSapin> so maybe @supports at-rule(@page) or something
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  432. # [12:12] <SimonSapin> it’s not in level 1 because we’re not sure of the syntax, but didn’t want to block the rest of the functionality
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  434. # [12:15] <darobin> sure, that's sensible
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  460. # [15:04] <Smylers1> “The quality of a spec has little to do with its implementation or implementability. This is a process and IPR concern unrelated to quality.” — Interesting TAG manifesto line from Glenn Adams.
  461. # [15:05] <Smylers1> His nominator seems to've forgotten to mention it in his statement, but Glenn helpfully puts it on the public record here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Dec/0027.html
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  502. # [16:01] <zewt> Smylers1: wow--that's pretty unusual subject matter for The Onion
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  508. # [16:11] <zewt> Hixie: bleh, I should take that complex captioning example, track down a raw and transcribe the same scene with roll-ups
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  512. # [16:11] <zewt> it'll be completely illegible and i don't think anyone comparing those two could make an honest argument for roll-up captions
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  536. # [16:59] <marcosc> zewt: Eveyone knows Ms2ger` is a patent troll
  537. # [16:59] <Ms2ger`> And I tried so hard to hide it by not telling Glenn who I am
  538. # [17:00] <marcosc> Ms2ger`, oh! Glenn will find out when you drag his sorry ass into court for countless patent infringements
  539. # [17:01] <Ms2ger`> marcosc, that will be hard, he doesn't implement anything AFAIK
  540. # [17:03] <marcosc> heh, the irony :)
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  559. # [17:35] <foobler> What's the best manner to use @async and @defer for a dynamically injected script that I want to be downloaded as soon as possible, but then executed on domready so as to not get in the way of the rest of the page?
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  564. # [17:48] <Ms2ger`> defer
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  579. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> Sometimes I wonder whether our embedded lists should use different numbering for different levels...
  580. # [18:20] <GPHemsley> It's all Pythony in here, relying only on indentation to determine which level we're at.
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  587. # [18:22] <annevk> odinho: happy b-day!
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  601. # [18:52] <GPHemsley> "Well, you see, in step 14.15.2.2, you..."
  602. # [18:52] <GPHemsley> -_-
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  604. # [18:53] <Ms2ger`> In step 14.XV.b.ii?
  605. # [18:55] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  607. # [18:59] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger`: No, silly. Step 14(o)(ii)(β). Duh.
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  621. # [19:15] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: This is what I have so far. Thoughts? http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1979746
  622. # [19:16] <GPHemsley> (it's not done)
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  624. # [19:17] <GPHemsley> annevk: Feel free to chime in, too. ^^
  625. # [19:19] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: first impression without reading: if it’s that much code-like, how about using an actual programming language?
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  627. # [19:20] <SimonSapin> at university I used to write python and tell people it’s pseudo-code
  628. # [19:20] * Ms2ger` did that
  629. # [19:20] <Ms2ger`> With a professor who wrote horrible formatted C as pseudo-code instead
  630. # [19:22] <SimonSapin> I don’t remember a spec using executable code as the normative description of an algorithm, but I don’t know why it would bad
  631. # [19:22] <SimonSapin> favoritism form one programming language aside
  632. # [19:23] <Ms2ger`> Depending on the definition of the programming language and all its bugs
  633. # [19:23] <SimonSapin> might still be better than an undefined pseudo-language
  634. # [19:24] <SimonSapin> Are "Enter loop L" and "Begin loop M" the same as "while True"?
  635. # [19:25] <SimonSapin> (sorry for going meta when I suspect you want feedback on the actual algorithm…)
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  650. # [19:48] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: All algorithms are code-like ;)
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  657. # [19:53] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Any spec that uses pseudo-code instead of prose runs the risk of being unintelligible or misunderstood. With prose (at least, if done correctly), you can be clear about what you need to be done without necessarily forcing any particular way of doing it.
  658. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> So yes, you can translate "enter loop" as "while true", but really that's just an artifact of the programming language.
  659. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> It's a hack, really, if you think about it.
  660. # [19:55] <GPHemsley> You're taking advantage of a tautology to force the loop to run continuously, but there's no reason why a programming language couldn't implement that behavior natively.
  661. # [19:55] <GPHemsley> (As in, the prose is a sort of pseudo-code already.)
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  663. # [19:59] <SimonSapin> yeah I was not suggesting you change it, just confirming I understood correctly
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  665. # [20:00] <GPHemsley> k
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  667. # [20:01] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: I just wanted to make sure I sufficiently argued against using pseudo-code as a spec. :)
  668. # [20:01] <SimonSapin> so you plan to make prose out of http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1979746 ?
  669. # [20:03] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Oh, no, that's what I consider prose in this context. :)
  670. # [20:05] <GPHemsley> BTW, those are all supposed to be numbered. For some reason, the numbering didn't copy from the browser.
  671. # [20:07] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: are you writing this in HTML? Could you paste the source? (Might be easier to read.)
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  674. # [20:10] <GPHemsley> Doubt it, but OK.
  675. # [20:11] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: define whitespace, preferably by a list of code points
  676. # [20:11] <SimonSapin> (easier to read once rendered by a browser!)
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  678. # [20:12] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: … or link to http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#ascii-whitespace , if that’s the definition you want
  679. # [20:12] <GPHemsley> Yes, yes. Assume all terms are define satisfactorily. (I think annevk defines whitespace characters in encoding or something.)
  680. # [20:12] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1979885
  681. # [20:13] <GPHemsley> Once I actually have an algorithm that completes, I'll commit it and put in online like normal. Then you can read it comfortably.
  682. # [20:13] <GPHemsley> I'm just looking for overview feedback right now.
  683. # [20:13] <SimonSapin> commit with mime(sniff)?
  684. # [20:13] <GPHemsley> Yeah
  685. # [20:14] <GPHemsley> Unless/until we find someplace else to live.
  686. # [20:14] <GPHemsley> +for it
  687. # [20:15] <GPHemsley> I define "whitespace byte", but I haven't decided whether I'm parsing this as bytes or characters.
  688. # [20:15] <SimonSapin> sequence[s] is undefined … when s >= length?
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  690. # [20:16] <GPHemsley> those are functionally equivalent, are they not?
  691. # [20:16] <SimonSapin> yeah of course
  692. # [20:16] <GPHemsley> (but this is still too low level of feedback :P)
  693. # [20:16] <SimonSapin> again, making sure I understand
  694. # [20:17] <GPHemsley> ah, ok
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  696. # [20:17] * GPHemsley notes that pastebin HTML syntax highlighting is rather terrible.
  697. # [20:17] <SimonSapin> I’m used to python were out of bounds indexing raises an error instead of returning undefined/None
  698. # [20:18] <GPHemsley> ah, well, I could change it
  699. # [20:18] <GPHemsley> but it's used elsewhere in mimesniff, too
  700. # [20:18] <SimonSapin> I’m reading here http://dabblet.com/gist/4227355
  701. # [20:18] <GPHemsley> ah, that's one way to do it
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  705. # [20:22] <SimonSapin> re seq[i] is undefined: if that behavior is defined or mentioned somewhere, it’s fine
  706. # [20:22] <benbro> how can I track the progress of the PointerEvents draft?
  707. # [20:23] <benbro> is there a way to estimate when it will be stable and when will browsers start to implement it?
  708. # [20:23] <Ms2ger`> Look at xhr.spec.whatwg.org
  709. # [20:23] <SimonSapin> Encoding uses a theoretical "EOF code point" or "EOF byte"
  710. # [20:23] <Ms2ger`> Browsers have implemented it for years
  711. # [20:23] <hober> benbro: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/
  712. # [20:23] <Ms2ger`> Oh
  713. # [20:23] <Ms2ger`> I can't read
  714. # [20:24] <Ms2ger`> Nothing to see here, move along
  715. # [20:24] <benbro> hober: thanks. seems very active
  716. # [20:24] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Yeah, I saw that, but I didn't look deep enough into it to understand its function. Is that what it does? Avoid this undefined issue?
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  718. # [20:24] <SimonSapin> it just means you reached the end of a sequence
  719. # [20:24] <jsbell> yes (re: EOF byte)
  720. # [20:25] <benbro> hober: does implementation depends only on browser vendors or on devices too?
  721. # [20:25] <benbro> hober: for example FF only or android/galaxy note. who should change stuff to support it?
  722. # [20:25] <hober> benbro: i don't think i understand the question, and i'm not in the wg
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  724. # [20:26] <benbro> hober: ok. I mean who need to implement the spec
  725. # [20:27] <benbro> if it's just FireFox the browser or also samsung who creates the galaxy note with the s-pen or maybe google which creates the android
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  727. # [20:27] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Oh, I forgot, it's because the algorithm processes a byte sequence as an array, of sorts. So seq[i] is undefined when it goes out of bounds. But >= length would work, too. Not sure about EOF, though.
  728. # [20:28] <GPHemsley> (it doesn't use pointers or whatever)
  729. # [20:29] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: I wonder if a grammar would be more suited in this particular case. One without implicit whitespace or implicit anything. Error handling is simple: doesn’t match the grammar ⇒ return undefined
  730. # [20:30] <GPHemsley> Yeah, I was kinda thinking that myself.
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  732. # [20:30] <GPHemsley> I just wish I'd thought harder about before I did all this work. >_>
  733. # [20:30] <SimonSapin> It’s quite verbose just to say: ws* token ws* "/" ws* token ws*
  734. # [20:31] <GPHemsley> indeed
  735. # [20:31] <GPHemsley> though I think there are severability points beyond just not matching = undefined
  736. # [20:32] <jsbell> Although I'm not really paying attention, have no useful input, and I have no reason to care and should be worrying about other things, the comment "I haven't decided whether I'm parsing this as bytes or characters" is causing encoding-paranoia angst. Pls decide soon kthxbai :)
  737. # [20:32] <SimonSapin> but what exactly is a token? In your algo anything but whitespace or / for type and subtype, anything but whitespace or = for name, …
  738. # [20:33] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Yeah, see, it's more complicated than it looks. (And that's even after simplifying what the RFCs say.) And don't forget the whole parameter issue with null vs. "" vs. actual content.
  739. # [20:33] <SimonSapin> the MIME rfcs probably have definition but I’m sure what it is
  740. # [20:33] <GPHemsley> jsbell: That's why I'm leaning towards characters in this case.
  741. # [20:33] <SimonSapin> yeah, I don’t think parameters without values (value is null) are actually a thing
  742. # [20:33] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Oh, they do. There are plenty of different RFCs with different definitions. That's why I've oversimplified at first pass.
  743. # [20:34] <SimonSapin> I think the only thing looking like this is base64 in data, but that can be special-cased
  744. # [20:34] <GPHemsley> I'd rather there weren't any special cases. Wouldn't it be nice to allow such extensibility?
  745. # [20:35] <SimonSapin> I don’t know
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  748. # [20:35] <SimonSapin> I’d rather not base new stuff on MIME, this is only for defining existing protocols
  749. # [20:36] <GPHemsley> Especially if this evolves into some sort of API or something.
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  753. # [20:44] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: in data: you can omit type/subtype (defaults to text/plain) and only specify parameters like charset. It could either be a flag passed to your algorithm
  754. # [20:44] <SimonSapin> or data could have something like "if header starts with optional whitespace followed by ; then prepend text/plain" beforehand
  755. # [20:50] <SimonSapin> bbl
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  827. # [23:17] <jsbell> In DOM3 the IDL for DOMException and DOMError define a |message| readonly DOMString attribute. In DOM4 the guts of DOMException logic are shuffled off to WebIDL which handwaves about "Exceptions have an associated message, a DOMString, which is exposed on an exception object in a language binding-specific manner."
  828. # [23:20] <jsbell> I'm assuming this means I can stuff a message on DOMError and everyone will be happy.
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  830. # [23:28] <jsbell> annevk: ping?
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  832. # [23:38] <heycam> jsbell, there is wording down later in the spec about what it means in terms of a message property on exceptions in JS
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  836. # [23:39] <heycam> jsbell, see the second list of steps in http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-throwing-exceptions
  837. # [23:39] <heycam> jsbell, (it passes the message to the constructor for the error)
  838. # [23:39] <jsbell> heycam: yeah - in this case I'm actually worrying about DOMError which as far as I can tell WebIDL doesn't touch at all
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  840. # [23:40] <heycam> jsbell, ah ok, right. I am not really sure where DOMError is used currently, so no opinion on that. :)
  841. # [23:40] <jsbell> Sorry to cast aspersions on WebIDL. :)
  842. # [23:41] <heycam> heh np
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  847. # [23:46] <jsbell> heycam: while I've got you though... did anything ever come of the "treat undefined parameters as missing like ES6" discussions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012OctDec/0026.html ?
  848. # [23:47] <jsbell> I'm guessing that's on a TODO list somewhere.
  849. # [23:48] <heycam> jsbell, yeah, I need to make that change if ES6 has indeed changed its treatment of undefined passed to functions
  850. # [23:48] <heycam> but not done yet, you are right
  851. # [23:48] <jsbell> Cool, just making sure it hadn't been revisited and rejected.
  852. # [23:48] <heycam> it is in my folder of public-script-coord mail with ~400 unread emails ;)
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  857. # [23:52] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  858. # [23:59] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  859. # Session Close: Fri Dec 07 00:00:00 2012

The end :)