/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 10 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  59. # [03:06] <nattokirai> Hixie: sent you some comments on canvas text styles
  60. # [03:07] <nattokirai> Hixie: related to the FontLoader object
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  66. # [03:19] <Hixie> nattokirai: thanks
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  70. # [04:05] <hendry> is there a good place to report cross-browser SVG wierdness to ? http://neon.webconverger.com/logo/ confuses me so much that I don't think I could write an intelligible bug report
  71. # [04:06] <heycam> hendry, in Firefox at least, SVG documents in an <img> are not allowed to reference any external resources
  72. # [04:07] <heycam> that would be at least why in the <img> in the second set of tests you have there doesn't work
  73. # [04:08] <hendry> heycam: that explains it I think. Stangely the top three SVG instances just "started working" with the Web font. Yesterday they were not working. Maybe it's a problem with my site.
  74. # [04:08] <heycam> hendry, I don't know why the top ones should work -- they don't import the font in the .svg file?
  75. # [04:09] <heycam> (unless you installed the font locally?)
  76. # [04:09] <hendry> heycam: that's correct
  77. # [04:09] <heycam> I like the font btw :)
  78. # [04:09] <hendry> the top three work for me right now, I think because of the Google Web font import
  79. # [04:09] <hendry> (i think)
  80. # [04:10] <hendry> in 23.0.1271.95 Chrome
  81. # [04:10] <heycam> the @font-face in the top level document shouldn't leak into the child <object>
  82. # [04:11] <heycam> for me none of the top three work in CHrome
  83. # [04:11] <heycam> (25.0.1354.0)
  84. # [04:12] <hendry> http://neon.webconverger.com/logo/object.html is working for me in 23.0.1271.95 Chrome
  85. # [04:12] <hendry> but strangely it didn't work yesterday, but this morning it does. So I am so confused right now
  86. # [04:13] <heycam> not for me
  87. # [04:13] <heycam> you didn't install the font locally did you? :)
  88. # [04:13] <hendry> heycam: OH THAT'S IT
  89. # [04:13] <hendry> it's here /usr/share/fonts/TTF/BadScript-Regular.ttf
  90. # [04:14] <hendry> thanks heycam!
  91. # [04:14] <heycam> heh
  92. # [04:14] <heycam> np
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  94. # [04:15] <hendry> i think i have noticed tools like Inkscape and Illustrator not using '@font-face { font-family: Bad Script; src: url(BadScript-Regular.ttf) format("truetype"); }'
  95. # [04:15] <hendry> so hence SVGs using fonts are often "made into objects" for portability IIUC ?
  96. # [04:15] <hendry> which sucks a lot
  97. # [04:16] <hendry> wondering if my observation is valid
  98. # [04:18] <heycam> do you mean they convert text to paths?
  99. # [04:18] <hendry> heycam: yes, that's the right terminology :)
  100. # [04:19] <heycam> yeah, that does suck
  101. # [04:19] <heycam> one thing I want to add to the SVG spec is a way of associating some text with arbitrary graphics
  102. # [04:19] <heycam> to say that the graphics is the visual representation of that text
  103. # [04:19] <heycam> which could be handy for one-off fancy text that doesn't require a whole font
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  105. # [04:20] <heycam> <text>Hello <tgraphics href="#some-g-element">fancy</tgraphics></text> or something
  106. # [04:21] <hendry> not sure what you mean. could you make an anology with HTML? image replacement? are the graphics rasterised...
  107. # [04:21] <hendry> anyway I'm a SVG newbie
  108. # [04:22] <hendry> heycam: i've found https://github.com/svg/svgo a good tool of late. not sure if you've seen it
  109. # [04:22] <hendry> i'm trying to "un-path" this huge SVG at http://smrt.dabase.com/ in some sane way :/
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  113. # [04:28] <heycam> hendry, just meant that if you have some fancy graphics you want to be treated as text (like if Inkscape has converted the text to paths, to avoid needing a font), you could do that
  114. # [04:31] <hendry> heycam: so you have a "backup layer" to convert back to text if one for whatever reason converted text to path ? IIUC?
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  116. # [04:32] <heycam> hendry, yes, so that search engines can see it, and you can still select and copy/paste it
  117. # [04:35] <hendry> heycam: that would be sensible.
  118. # [04:36] <hendry> I'm surprised that Inkscape/Adobe don't try deal with this problem. AFAICT some SVGs are HUGE thanks to 'converted text to Paths'
  119. # [04:38] <hendry> https://github.com/svg/svgo/issues/71 - hoping a tool can fix the problem ;)
  120. # [04:39] <heycam> for space saving, they might be able to convert individual glyphs to paths, then <use> them in multiple places
  121. # [04:40] <hendry> not sure what you mean by glyphs, the PNG bits in the SVG?
  122. # [04:40] <hendry> oh wait
  123. # [04:40] <hendry> i got it
  124. # [04:40] <hendry> that's a good comment
  125. # [04:41] <hendry> heycam: added https://github.com/svg/svgo/issues/71#issuecomment-11180931
  126. # [04:42] <hendry> heycam: even though i'm using font tag in the SVGs here http://neon.webconverger.com/logo/, I can't select the text, which is a bit sad.
  127. # [04:42] <hendry> heycam: sorry, now I can. On non-img embeds
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  131. # [05:30] <Hixie> MikeSmith_: any idea what component i'm supposed to use to file bugs on the htmlwg html5 spec that should be fixed before it gets to CR?
  132. # [05:31] <MikeSmith_> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG
  133. # [05:31] <MikeSmith_> I think
  134. # [05:31] <Hixie> which component though?
  135. # [05:31] <MikeSmith_> oops, sorry
  136. # [05:32] <MikeSmith_> just "HTML spec"
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  138. # [05:35] <Hixie> k
  139. # [05:35] <Hixie> what's the CR component for? it has a bunch of bugs
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  141. # [05:36] <Hixie> (btw, the idea of a component per milestone kinda misses the point of the "target milestone" and "version" fields in bugzilla...)
  142. # [05:38] <Hixie> ok https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20319
  143. # [05:38] <Hixie> hopefully the htmlwg will work out what the fix should be so i don't have to
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  145. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: dunno why we have a CR component already, nor why people have already filed bugs in it
  146. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> I am equally confused
  147. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> I don't ask questions -- I just push the buttons when requested
  148. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> garbage in, garbage out
  149. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: wow that's quite a bug
  150. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> you found that yourself? Or somebody else reported it?
  151. # [05:44] <Hixie> lord no
  152. # [05:44] <Hixie> someone reported it on the whatwg list
  153. # [05:44] <Hixie> see most recent e-mail to the whatwg list (from me)
  154. # [05:47] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ah yeah that's from the guy who wrote automation to generate test cases
  155. # [05:47] <Hixie> nice
  156. # [05:47] <MikeSmith> so far he wrote it for only 24 elements I think
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  159. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: http://www.score.is.tsukuba.ac.jp/~minamide/papers/minamide-FM2012.pdf
  160. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> "Reachability Analysis of the HTML5 Parser
  161. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> Speci cation and its Application to
  162. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> Compatibility Testing"
  163. # [06:01] <MikeSmith_> "We have developed a reachability analyzer for the HTML5 parser speci - cation based on the translation to a conditional pushdown system and on the reachability analysis on it. A nontrivial subset of the tree-construction stage con- sisting of 24 elements and 9 modes is formalized in our speci cation language."
  164. # [06:02] <Hixie> never thought people would be writing academic papers about my work
  165. # [06:02] <Hixie> that's just weird
  166. # [06:03] <MikeSmith_> heh
  167. # [06:03] <MikeSmith_> it's pretty cool, what they did
  168. # [06:03] <MikeSmith_> has a very practical application in spite of being academic
  169. # [06:04] <Hixie> most academic work does :-)
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  171. # [06:04] <MikeSmith_> well, this one is closer to home
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  174. # [06:11] <Hixie> man half this paper is completely outside my understanding
  175. # [06:11] <Hixie> that doesn't bode well
  176. # [06:15] <Hixie> well, i don't understand half of the paper, but i do understand the conclusion
  177. # [06:15] <Hixie> and it is positive
  178. # [06:15] <Hixie> sweet
  179. # [06:19] <Hixie> on a completely different note, anyone know of a font off-hand that has many weights?
  180. # [06:21] <Hixie> aha, Avenir.
  181. # [06:22] <Hixie> also, wtf Opera
  182. # [06:22] <zewt> http://i.imgur.com/LSNyf.png google is almost at the point where i'm seriously thinking of seeing if bing is actually less stupid
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  184. # [06:23] <Hixie> why is opera ignoring my font-family
  185. # [06:23] <zewt> i do not need a search engine that intentionally makes typos for me
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  188. # [06:26] <neXTleap> Why do site makers not understand that having anything that changes/flashes/moves around makes it 100% impossible for people to read the articles/content? At least this is the case for me. My eyes cannot focus on reading when there is anything that is animated on the same page.
  189. # [06:27] <zewt> so how many channels are you pasting that into, exactly
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  192. # [06:28] <MikeSmith_> Hixie: Adam seemed to be suggesting that parsing bug doesn't necessarily need to be fixed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0019.html
  193. # [06:29] <Hixie> yeah i saw
  194. # [06:29] <Hixie> i disagree
  195. # [06:29] <Hixie> having the text change order is nuts
  196. # [06:29] <MikeSmith_> yeah I would think so
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  198. # [06:30] <MikeSmith_> so I see in his follow-up message, Minamide-san said he thinks it could be fixed without running into the limit problem that Adam described http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0020.html
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  217. # [07:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: fonts with many weights: Source Sans, Open Sans, Lato
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  219. # [08:07] <hsivonen> Firefox 3.6 off the list, IE10 on the list: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version_partially_combined-ww-daily-20121209-20121209-bar
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  225. # [08:55] <nattokirai> Hixie: what's the "Looks like Firefox does bolder (though seems buggy about it, at least
  226. # [08:55] <nattokirai> in my tests" about?
  227. # [08:55] <nattokirai> Hixie: do you have a testcase?
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  230. # [09:00] <hsivonen> I see way more magic than I like to see in nsUTF8ConverterService. annevk, you may be interested in finding out when this stuff gets called.
  231. # [09:01] * Joins: henrikkok (~henrikkok@81.27.221.193)
  232. # [09:01] <hsivonen> quoting: “It may not be asked for if a caller suspects that the input is in non-ASCII 7bit charset (ISO-2022-xx, HZ)”
  233. # [09:03] <hsivonen> good times. code that is so old it has comments about Tru64 Unix’s C++ compiler
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  260. # [10:20] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@mail2.gastwerk-hotel.de)
  261. # [10:22] <annevk> anyone here willing to review a few paragraphs?
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  264. # [10:25] <hsivonen> depends on the paragraphs, I guess
  265. # [10:26] <Ms3ger> Looks like nsUTF8ConverterService is used for <script type> \o/
  266. # [10:26] <hsivonen> Ms3ger: why?
  267. # [10:27] <Ms3ger> Because it's used in our Content-Type parsing code
  268. # [10:27] <annevk> hsivonen: draft post for the TAG thingie
  269. # [10:28] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  270. # [10:28] <annevk> pointer to nsUTF8ConverterService? sounds interesting
  271. # [10:29] <darobin> annevk: sure, I'll review that
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  275. # [10:31] <Engin> about the relatively new access control specifications. is preflight sequence to be made each time a cross domain request to be made to the cross domain target site ?
  276. # [10:32] <Ms3ger> annevk: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/src/nsUTF8ConverterService.cpp
  277. # [10:32] <Engin> i.e. should I expect an OPTIONS request to be sent to the target web site for each resource request ? because that's what chrome was doing, and that's basically just doubling my requests ?
  278. # [10:32] <Engin> if that's the case, I can just resort to JSONP and handle cross domain communcications the old way
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  282. # [10:41] <annevk> a) that's be insecure, b) simple stuff like fetching JSON should not require a preflight
  283. # [10:43] <hsivonen> annevk: does GET with default headers ever require a preflight?
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  285. # [10:44] <annevk> if there's event listeners registered on xhr.upload, but I forgot why we did that
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  289. # [10:47] <darobin> that's the sort of side effect that causes pain
  290. # [10:47] <darobin> it would be good to know why it's that way
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  292. # [10:49] <darobin> JSONP might be insecure but it works; if I found out that I was now making twice the number of request without really knowing why, just like Engin I'd revert to it
  293. # [10:49] <annevk> yeah, I remember sof also not thinking it was necessary and then I went back to check and ...
  294. # [10:49] <annevk> so I guess I should go back and check again
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  297. # [10:56] <matjas> lolque https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20306
  298. # [10:57] <hsivonen> annevk: oh, one more thing: why lower case “web”?
  299. # [10:57] <darobin> annevk: looking ath XHR, I find it rather painful to figure out what the upload events flag does
  300. # [10:57] <darobin> I mean I can reverse engineer it, but the dfn is not a definition, and its usage in the spec is far from illuminating
  301. # [10:57] <annevk> hsivonen: it's a common word
  302. # [10:58] * darobin never knows whether to lowercase web or not
  303. # [10:58] <hsivonen> there’s just one “the Web”
  304. # [10:58] <annevk> I always opt for lowercasing when there's confusion, and without hyphen whenever possible
  305. # [10:59] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@80.230.140.88.rev.sfr.net)
  306. # [10:59] <hsivonen> annevk: “the Internet” or “the internet”?
  307. # [10:59] <annevk> hsivonen: I'd lowercase that too
  308. # [10:59] * hsivonen disapproves
  309. # [10:59] <annevk> but your point about their being only one is interesting
  310. # [10:59] <annevk> had not considered that
  311. # [10:59] <darobin> should that not be "HSivonen disapproves"?
  312. # [11:00] <SimonSapin> maybe :)
  313. # [11:00] <hsivonen> darobin: no, the canonical case of my userid is the lower case
  314. # [11:01] <darobin> hsivonen: so if I use "HSivonen" then I'm just referring to a Henri Sivonen, not the Henri Sivonen?
  315. # [11:02] <hsivonen> darobin: I think the more interesting question is if the first letter of userids should be capitalized at the start of a sentence in email.
  316. # [11:03] <annevk> that'd be weird
  317. # [11:03] <darobin> hsivonen: I've been handling that one by rephrasing to avoid to issue
  318. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> "The web is everything from simple documents (cat pictures) to complex applications (cat picture meme generators)." that guy gets my vote
  319. # [11:04] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you get to cast the vote for Keio?
  320. # [11:04] <hsivonen> do the hosts gets to vote?
  321. # [11:04] <hsivonen> get
  322. # [11:04] <darobin> yes, it's always puzzled me that while the internet is made of cats this is never handled by webarch
  323. # [11:04] <darobin> yes
  324. # [11:04] <darobin> each host has a vote, they're members
  325. # [11:05] <darobin> I don't think that MikeSmith is the one making the call on the Keio vote though :)
  326. # [11:05] <hsivonen> :-(
  327. # [11:06] <hsivonen> looks like today, I’ll be just doing reviews
  328. # [11:06] <darobin> I don't know though, maybe he knows exactly who to buy a beer to
  329. # [11:06] <hsivonen> of all kinds
  330. # [11:06] <hsivonen> code, blog post, specs
  331. # [11:06] <darobin> sounds like fun
  332. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: nope I don't getta vote
  333. # [11:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: :-(
  334. # [11:09] <hsivonen> I hadn’t realized SVG-as-img was banned from loading external TTF
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  336. # [11:13] <darobin> MikeSmith: maybe you can buy Hagino-san a beer?
  337. # [11:13] <darobin> I'm happy to pool some kitty money
  338. # [11:14] <darobin> mmm, I don't know the ERCIM guy who's replacing Vincent
  339. # [11:15] <annevk> darobin: the force preflight flag is there because otherwise the existence of the server would be exposed
  340. # [11:16] <annevk> darobin: and I think Gecko did not have enough control over the network layer to make that work more nicely
  341. # [11:16] <darobin> mmmm, I guess that would make sense
  342. # [11:17] <hsivonen> annevk: would be nice to have a note in the spec with the rationale
  343. # [11:17] <annevk> agreed, I'll file a bug
  344. # [11:17] <annevk> to make sure I give it another thorough examination
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  347. # [11:17] <darobin> in general it would be nice to have a checklist of things that trigger a preflight
  348. # [11:19] <annevk> there's such a checklist in CORS
  349. # [11:19] <hsivonen> Is Mac OS X 10.7.x unable to update to Safari 6?
  350. # [11:19] <annevk> I expect this stuff to become better when we rewrite CORS into Fetch
  351. # [11:19] <hsivonen> or is 5.1 the last Safari available for 10.6.x?
  352. # [11:19] <annevk> Fetch will handle all URL -> resource mapping and that will make the flow so much easier to understand
  353. # [11:20] <hsivonen> Safari has pretty severe version fragmentation: more than 50% of usage on non-latest
  354. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Did Windows users of Safari get any kind of EOL notice?
  355. # [11:21] <hsivonen> are the users left with an unupdating browser without knowing it?
  356. # [11:21] <annevk> Windows Safari EOL'd?
  357. # [11:22] <hsivonen> annevk: is it not?
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  359. # [11:23] <annevk> They'll have to update Windows iTunes I imagine. Not sure what the strategy behind Windows Safari was.
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  361. # [11:24] * darobin looks for a developer-friendly checklist in CORS, fails
  362. # [11:24] <hsivonen> http://www.apple.com/safari/ no longer offers a Windows download when loaded on Windows
  363. # [11:25] <hsivonen> annevk: Windows iTunes got the 11 update
  364. # [11:25] <hsivonen> Windows iTunes is 64-bit even
  365. # [11:25] <annevk> So I guess they got tired of updating the Safari WebKit-shell for Windows or maybe the usage share was just too low...
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  368. # [11:27] <darobin> I've been told that iTunes actually doesn't use a WebView
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  370. # [11:28] <hsivonen> darobin: so private WebKit embedding API then?
  371. # [11:28] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no)
  372. # [11:28] <darobin> hsivonen: dunno, more clearly I was told that iTunes doesn't use HTML for its UI as much as people think
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  374. # [11:29] <darobin> but it's hard to figure out, all you ever get out of Apple employees are tantalising hints
  375. # [11:29] <hsivonen> iTunes LP requires WebKit for sure, though
  376. # [11:29] <darobin> either way, the conclusion from that discussion was that there wasn't really a need to maintain Apple's WebKit for usage in Windows iTunes as people thought
  377. # [11:30] <darobin> yeah, that's what I thought too, but I got a weird non-committal reply there
  378. # [11:30] <darobin> anyway, it quickly becomes kremlinology if you try to figure things out there
  379. # [11:30] <hsivonen> if Apple is non-committal to iTunes LP, can they, please, zap prefixed stuff?
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  385. # [11:32] <SimonSapin> annevk: is there an URL parser in JS?
  386. # [11:33] <SimonSapin> I’d like to fix https://github.com/LeaVerou/prefixfree/blob/1efce102f2b64e93aa061e6149b489bb769200a5/prefixfree.js#L43
  387. # [11:33] <SimonSapin> https://github.com/LeaVerou/prefixfree/issues/62
  388. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: http://medialize.github.com/URI.js/
  389. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> Rodney Rehm
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  392. # [11:41] <annevk> SimonSapin: http://github.com/annevk/url the impl I started the spec on, but it needs updating
  393. # [11:41] <annevk> s/started/based/
  394. # [11:41] <annevk> (the spec evolved a bit)
  395. # [11:42] <annevk> darobin: you must have been talking to different people then
  396. # [11:42] <darobin> annevk: as usual with Apple, I'm getting different input depending on who is being talked to
  397. # [11:43] <darobin> in any case, that was what I heard about EOLing WinSaf
  398. # [11:43] <annevk> maybe they try secrecy by obscurity now they can no longer keep a secret
  399. # [11:50] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@24-212-206-174.cable.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  400. # [11:50] <darobin> heh
  401. # [11:51] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
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  410. # [12:07] <Engin> iirc, access control specs is basically saying you need explicit permission from the host if you intend to READ the response.
  411. # [12:07] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  412. # [12:07] <Engin> it's been like 2 years since I've read it though
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  427. # [12:50] * zcorpan finds out about https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-html-a11y/
  428. # [12:50] <SimonSapin> <link>.href is always absolute, even if .getAttribute('href') is not, right?
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  432. # [12:51] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: not if the url fails to resolve
  433. # [12:52] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: then it returns the attribute value literally, iirc
  434. # [12:52] <SimonSapin> what does "fail to resolve" mean? A parse error?
  435. # [12:53] <zcorpan> i guess when http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ returns "failure"
  436. # [12:54] <zcorpan> specific case i know of is "http://foo bar/"
  437. # [12:54] <zcorpan> or //foo bar/
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  444. # [13:11] <Stevef> zcorpan: hey thats secret
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  446. # [13:12] <zcorpan> Stevef: i figured
  447. # [13:12] <zcorpan> now i just wonder how many more secret lists html wg has
  448. # [13:12] <Stevef> its one of those archives I can't access
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  451. # [13:13] <Stevef> zcorpan: it can only be accessed by insiders
  452. # [13:14] <zcorpan> right
  453. # [13:14] <Stevef> zcorpan: but I can confirm its where all the real decisions are made
  454. # [13:15] <zcorpan> are you on that list?
  455. # [13:15] <Stevef> yes: its for admin/co-ord for a11y chairs
  456. # [13:15] <Stevef> but can't access archive
  457. # [13:16] <darobin> Stevef: that's a bug
  458. # [13:16] <darobin> lemme ask how to fix it
  459. # [13:17] <Stevef> darobin: maybe am not concerned
  460. # [13:17] <darobin> concerned?
  461. # [13:17] <Stevef> about getting access to archive
  462. # [13:18] <Stevef> i already get multiple copies of each email jammimg up inbox as it is
  463. # [13:18] <darobin> sure, but it would come in handy if you need it one day
  464. # [13:18] <darobin> to refer to one of those all important decisions you make there
  465. # [13:19] <darobin> I know that it's technically possible to grant you access to team archives
  466. # [13:20] <Stevef> yeah probably, as I tend to delete a lot of the mails (ones that are not set to auto destruct after reading)
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  470. # [13:26] <Stevef> really, its the off list back channel emails that can be read by no one except the those its sent to where the real real decisions are made, the secret lists are only to fool people into thinking they are involved in secret decsions, so I have been told...
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  472. # [13:28] <darobin> hehe
  473. # [13:31] <Stevef> the actual are decisions made via telepathy, vulcan mind melds etc. I would also like to know how many people involved in standards are scientologists
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  479. # [14:12] <Stevef> MikeSmith: screenshot of acc inspect info on <main> element in chromium build waiting for you to download in skype
  480. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> Stevef: ah thanks
  481. # [14:15] <Stevef> note its a bit tricky to get at have to hover mouse right over element border (and have Voicoever running) as chrome only switches acc stuff on when it detects an AT
  482. # [14:15] <Stevef> i think you have to have voiceover running before opening chrome
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  489. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> Stevef: I set tabindex=0 on it to make it focusable and then just hover over it when it's focused
  490. # [14:33] <Stevef> MikeSmith: yeah that works, its a shame the Mac inspection tools don't 'watch focus' like the windows tools, it makes it easy to inspect elements then
  491. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> Stevef: I still don't see how to get Accessibility Inspector to show me the right thing in Safari
  492. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> I got it working in Chromium
  493. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> but in Safari it never seems to actually find the element I'm trying to check
  494. # [14:35] <Stevef> maybe need to fire up voiceover didn't think it was needed
  495. # [14:38] <Stevef> also this tool is useful on mac: http://pfiddlesoft.com/uibrowser/ but is trial version
  496. # [14:38] <Stevef> allows you to step through acc tree
  497. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> Stevef: yeah I got voiceover on but when I hover over the focused element in Safari it doesn't show the right information, as far as I can see.
  498. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> Stevef: ok
  499. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> thanks
  500. # [14:46] <Stevef> mikesmith: works for me with this test file: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/377471/tests/structural.html
  501. # [14:46] <Stevef> MikeSmith: no voiceover
  502. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> ok
  503. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> clearly I'm doing something wrong
  504. # [14:47] <Stevef> safari 6.0
  505. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> ah
  506. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> I'm trying with 5.1.7
  507. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> I can't run Safari 6.0 in my 10.6 environment, nor WebKit nightlies
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  509. # [14:52] <Stevef> yeah support for new elements has been fairly recent
  510. # [14:52] <Stevef> accessibility support that is
  511. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> ah ok
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  544. # [16:24] <Engin> wow, preflight is really executed each time you access a differen URL
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  546. # [16:24] <Engin> it might be same resource... even if the query string is chagned, another preflight is being done
  547. # [16:24] <odinho> Yep, not very surprising. CORS is per-resource.
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  549. # [16:26] <Engin> maybe I need to refresh my definition of resource
  550. # [16:26] <Engin> I thought foo.com/bar?5 and foo.com/bar?6 are the same resources
  551. # [16:26] <Engin> with different query strings
  552. # [16:27] <odinho> Might have been true some time. It makes more sense. But everyone started doing index.php?file=my/file/here.inc instead.
  553. # [16:28] <Engin> it is not the commity's responsibility to remedy incompetent designers flaws :)
  554. # [16:28] <Engin> I think this renders CORS inefficient
  555. # [16:29] <Engin> for instance, in this application, i need to make requests as fast as possible.
  556. # [16:29] <Engin> for any aplpication which does not scale... it is no problem.
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  560. # [16:34] <Engin> I think a unified API can be made
  561. # [16:34] <Engin> JSONP and RESTful.
  562. # [16:35] <Engin> Yet, my applications are not really a good example of "resources", mine is pretty much an API like a real one instead of CRUD operations.
  563. # [16:35] <gsnedders> Engin: I resource is everything except the fragment identifier.
  564. # [16:35] <gsnedders> *A
  565. # [16:35] <Engin> ok
  566. # [16:36] <Engin> where is it specified exactly
  567. # [16:36] <Engin> I'm being lazy here sorry :)
  568. # [16:36] <gsnedders> And then, what, control cross-domain access on a per-origin basis instead of a per-resource one?
  569. # [16:37] <Engin> resources could override the origin rules
  570. # [16:37] <Engin> if you ask me
  571. # [16:37] <Engin> but in flash, there's a policty file which is pretty much like cors thing in HTTP
  572. # [16:37] <Engin> it works like that, when you get permission, you go full
  573. # [16:38] <odinho> And it had/has LOADS of security issues. Many because of sysadmins working on different parts of the web site didn't know that flash basically got a free-pass to the entire site.
  574. # [16:39] <odinho> But, reboot for me.
  575. # [16:39] <Engin> refresh me if I'm being stupid... it's been a while since I studied this things deeply
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  580. # [16:43] <Engin> there's always the Origin http header in the HTTP requests... so the target site can apply per resource restrictions
  581. # [16:43] <Engin> 1) Target site allowed its resources to be read
  582. # [16:43] <Engin> 2) you read everything without preflight
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  584. # [16:44] <Engin> 3) if there's an exceptional resource... target site can deny access anyway, since the origin is known for each request... i.e. give a 403 maybe.
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  588. # [16:53] <darobin> Engin: bar?5 and bar?6 are clearly different resources as per HTTP, URI specs, etc.
  589. # [16:53] <darobin> I think it's way too late to revisit that
  590. # [16:53] <darobin> you could use POST
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  592. # [16:53] <darobin> I think that POSTing repetitively to the same resource should let it live in the CORS cache
  593. # [16:53] <darobin> so you'd only get a preflight on the first request
  594. # [16:54] <darobin> (in a good implementation)
  595. # [16:54] <zcorpan> finding in the spec if the value attribute is required or optional for a certain <input type> appears to be not trivial
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  597. # [17:02] <darobin> jgraham_: ping
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  599. # [17:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: why is UTF-32 only “should not” and “discouraged” as opposed to MUST NOT use and MUST NOT implement?
  600. # [17:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: because the reason not to implement UTF-32 is weak, compared to the reason not to implement, say, UTF-7
  601. # [17:09] <Hixie> but i expect soon this to become moot with Encodings taking oven that job
  602. # [17:09] <Hixie> over
  603. # [17:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: it has this risk, no? http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/never-show-user-supplied-content-as-utf-16.htm
  604. # [17:10] <hsivonen> that UTF-16 also has, sure
  605. # [17:10] <hsivonen> and less reason to be supported than UTF-16
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  608. # [17:14] <hsivonen> hmm. In Opera, a character encoding override seems to persist for the origin
  609. # [17:14] <hsivonen> which is not good if the origin happens to serve UTF-16 in addition to whatever caused the user to use the override
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  611. # [17:15] <Hixie> interpreting one encoding as another (especially one that isn't compatible in the us-ascii range) is always going to have that problem
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  613. # [17:16] <jarek> Hi
  614. # [17:17] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah, it just sets a "site preference"
  615. # [17:17] <jarek> should something like $element.getAttributeNS('xlink:href') work when XML serialization is used?
  616. # [17:18] <jarek> I mean $element.getAttribute('xlink:href')
  617. # [17:18] <jarek> it seems to be working on Chrome, but I haven't seen it documented anywhere
  618. # [17:19] <gsnedders> jarek: DOM4 documents that, element.QName + ":" + element.localName
  619. # [17:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: all encodings except UTF-16 that are in the Encoding Standard are ASCII-compatible
  620. # [17:19] <gsnedders> Oh, no, DOM4 seems to contradict that.
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  622. # [17:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: so non-Unicode legacy encodings aren’t as bad as legacy Unicode encodings
  623. # [17:20] <hsivonen> legacy Unicode encodings being UTF-* other than UTF-8
  624. # [17:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: ASCII-compatible as defined by the spec is not the same as what i mean here
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  626. # [17:20] <gsnedders> jarek: Per spec only getAttribute("href") should work, semingly. Dunno why that changed.
  627. # [17:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: you could easily do this with ISO-2022-jp, for instance
  628. # [17:21] <Hixie> well, "easily" may be pushing it
  629. # [17:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: anyway, UTF-32 has no real non-exploit use cases
  630. # [17:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: hence "should not"
  631. # [17:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: if you have no good reason to implement it, then it's a "must not"
  632. # [17:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, sure, but if you say “discouraged” rather than MUST NOT, the i18n folks repeat “discouraged” rather than “MUST NOT”
  633. # [17:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: as i said, this is moot if we replace it with a reference to Encoding
  634. # [17:23] <hsivonen> I don’t ever recall seeing real Web content encoded as UTF-32, BTW
  635. # [17:23] <hsivonen> HOWEVER
  636. # [17:23] <Engin> darobin: I'm already talking about POSTs
  637. # [17:23] <hsivonen> I have seen real content that declared UCS-4
  638. # [17:23] <hsivonen> and it didn’t work for me
  639. # [17:24] <hsivonen> that content was Mark Pilgrim’s blog feed
  640. # [17:24] <hsivonen> (he didn’t appreciate when I complained about it, IIRC)
  641. # [17:25] <hsivonen> labeling this behavior according to Mark’s taxonomy of developers in left as an exercise
  642. # [17:26] <Hixie> as soon as i get around to updating the spec to use Encoding instead of doing all this itself, this entire issue disappears forever
  643. # [17:26] <Hixie> you are preaching to the choir
  644. # [17:27] <hsivonen> I’m just unhappy because I was about to email to www-international saying that HTML5 prohibits UTF-32 but then found it doesn’t totally
  645. # [17:28] <jarek> should inline SVG be parsed using HTML5 parsing rules or XML parsing rules?
  646. # [17:28] <gsnedders> jarek: HTML5 defines it.
  647. # [17:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: well just send an update saying you meant the Encoding spec
  648. # [17:28] <shepazu> what gsnedders said
  649. # [17:28] <gsnedders> jarek: There are specific states for foreign content.
  650. # [17:29] <jarek> gsnedders: was this proposal approved by W3C? http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html
  651. # [17:30] <shepazu> jarek: no
  652. # [17:30] <jarek> so custom namespaces in inline SVG files are officially not supported?
  653. # [17:31] <gsnedders> Correct. xlink and xml:lang are special-cased.
  654. # [17:31] <jarek> e.g. is it technically allowed to get/set/modify attributes such as inkscape:window-width?
  655. # [17:32] <gsnedders> No.
  656. # [17:32] <gsnedders> That's a parse-error.
  657. # [17:32] <gsnedders> Nothing stops you from mutating the DOM to add/remove/set them.
  658. # [17:32] <gsnedders> They just cannot exist in the HTML serialization.
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  663. # [17:36] <jarek> but attributes in inlined SVG drawings should remain case-sensitive, right?
  664. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> No
  665. # [17:37] <jarek> omg, what a mess :/
  666. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> Not the names, at least
  667. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> Yeah, welcome to the web
  668. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> We do messes
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  670. # [17:38] <hsivonen> jarek: the names in the DOM and in XML are case-sensitive
  671. # [17:38] <hsivonen> jarek: the text/html serialization is case-insensitive
  672. # [17:38] <hsivonen> jarek: the HTML parser outputs the canonical case
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  674. # [17:44] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0122.html FWIW
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  676. # [17:46] <jarek> are there any official guildlines on how SVG document should me sanitised by publishers?
  677. # [17:46] <jarek> I was recently watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-a77QdoK2I
  678. # [17:47] <jarek> which is really scary, for a regular image format there are way to many ways for injecting evil scripts into it
  679. # [17:47] <jarek> it would be great if we could have something like 'sandbox' attribute on iframes, but for SVG
  680. # [17:47] <hsivonen> jarek: SVG in <img> is harmless
  681. # [17:48] <hsivonen> jarek: inline SVG or SVG in <iframe>, <embed> or <object> is as dangerous as random HTML or Flash
  682. # [17:48] <jarek> hsivonen: what if I wanted to have access to the DOM from parent document?
  683. # [17:48] <hsivonen> jarek: can’t have the cake and eat it, too
  684. # [17:48] <hsivonen> jarek: then you need a dangerous inclusion mechanism
  685. # [17:49] <jarek> hsivonen: it's possible to disable all scripts inside iframes, but keep DOM access
  686. # [17:49] <hsivonen> jarek: theoretically, I’m not sure (but look up sandbox), in practice, no
  687. # [17:50] <hsivonen> jarek: as for sanitizer guidelines, you can look at http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsTreeSanitizer.cpp for inspiration
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  689. # [17:52] <darobin> jarek: I make no claims as to trustworthiness, but it was ported over from a widely deployed sanitiser (Rails'): https://github.com/darobin/html-sanitiser
  690. # [17:53] <darobin> you could adapt that to include SVG
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  692. # [17:55] <hsivonen> Does the platform provide any way to plant a document that does not have a browsing context into a browsing context?
  693. # [17:55] <hsivonen> I think the answer is “no”, but I could be wrong.
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  695. # [18:00] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  696. # [18:00] <Hixie> man, 140 characters is too short.
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  698. # [18:00] <Hixie> worst communication medium ever
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  702. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> Ever?
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  713. # [18:29] <Hixie> Ms2ger: yes.
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  725. # [18:42] <dglazkov> I would think the stone tablets were slightly more tedious, but maybe it's just me.
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  729. # [18:53] <marcosc_> dglazkov: I wonder if stone-age kids were able to engrave them super fast.
  730. # [18:53] <marcosc_> dglazkov: and what was stone-age "lol"?
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  736. # [18:59] <mpt> Smoke signals probably had lower latency than stone tablets, but also lower bandwidth.
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  744. # [19:22] <jgraham_> Well to be pedantic, the worst communication mechanism is presumably one that we don't use because it is so bad
  745. # [19:22] <jgraham_> Although
  746. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> NO
  747. # [19:22] <Ms2ger> TWITTER
  748. # [19:22] <jgraham_> I don't use twitter
  749. # [19:22] <jgraham_> So make of that what you will
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  752. # [19:25] <Hixie> dglazkov: stone tablets have more capacity and you can retrieve tablets you made centuries ago with virtually no dataloss. Twitter can't even return your tweets from a few months ago.
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  754. # [19:25] <Hixie> jgraham: ah bit is a communication medium nobody uses really a communication medium at all? :-)
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  758. # [19:28] <jgraham> Hixie: I suppose that the sound of trees falling in forests would be a particularly poor communication medium, yes
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  760. # [19:29] <jgraham> darobin: btw I would pong about now if you were here so, uh, ping?
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  765. # [19:45] <Hixie> <input type='text' maxlength='20' class='negra' name='user' formenctype='application/x-www-form-urlencoded'>
  766. # [19:45] <Hixie> why
  767. # [19:45] <Hixie> why would you do that
  768. # [19:45] <Hixie> what sequence of events led to that
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  770. # [19:46] <Hixie> also i like how the first mention of the substring "dialog" in http://bakhshianhaj.ir/post/47 is an end tag
  771. # [19:48] <Hixie> wow http://frontdesk.co.in/ actually uses formenctype correctly (though pointlessly, should have put it on the <form> for back compat)
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  785. # [20:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: wait, what is this version prefixing for webrtc? what?
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  787. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, can I tell people to start writing specs already? :)
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  793. # [20:22] <Hixie> anyone know what <panel> is? http://devbug.me/iphone/cydia/switchermodmini/index.html
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  795. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> I can tell you something about <layer>?
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  797. # [20:31] <Hixie> i don't have numbers to share, but interestingly <dialog> in its old definition was used by quite a few sites
  798. # [20:31] <Hixie> looks like it's dropping fast though
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  800. # [20:32] <Hixie> so that tells us that there's demand for conversation markup, and that authors are adapting both to introduction and removal of features pretty fast
  801. # [20:32] <Hixie> (for some definition of fast)
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  808. # [21:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: version suffixing
  809. # [21:05] <Hixie> on the api names?!
  810. # [21:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: apparently
  811. # [21:06] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: specs about what?
  812. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> All the new stuff we implement
  813. # [21:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: so uh
  814. # [21:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: is this something the wg is doing or something?
  815. # [21:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: how are we not stopping such insanity
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  819. # [21:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know if the idea came from the WG or from Chrome
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  821. # [21:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: I just don't want WebRTC to sink the policy proposal of getting rid of vendor prefixing
  822. # [21:11] <Huvet> Has there already been discussions about including one-click payments in browsers? A cross-browser way to do this would mean a LOT to the web.
  823. # [21:13] <Huvet> ... it's one of the big reasons publishers are moving away from the web towards closed platforms
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  825. # [21:16] <Ms2ger> Hixie, maybe start with the CSSWG :)
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  827. # [21:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh sure, i'm not saying they should be coupled
  828. # [21:18] <smaug____> Huvet: I know nothing about the subject, but perhaps you're looking for something like https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/WebPayment
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  831. # [21:18] <Hixie> i'm just concerned with the idea of versioning an API, we've managed to avoid that level of crazy so far
  832. # [21:18] <Hixie> it'd be a shame if we fell into it
  833. # [21:18] <Huvet> smaug____: thanks, I'll check it out!
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  835. # [21:32] <Huvet> smaug____: That's exactly what I was looking for. I smell #win for the web. Given that we get cross-browser support for WebPayment in a not too distant future.
  836. # [21:32] <Huvet> yay!
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  899. # Session Close: Tue Dec 11 00:00:00 2012

The end :)