/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 12 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: text-outline doesn't exist in CSS yet.
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  11. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Hixie: There's a -webkit- property for text-stroke, which is what you're talking about (though it's not very good, as it tends to *reduce* the legibility of text if you make it thick enouch to make the text pop against a similar-color background).
  12. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> But 4/8 text-shadows tends to work pretty good for putting an outline on text.
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  22. # [00:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: k
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  118. # [04:20] <zewt> andrew kirkpatrick with the not knowing what reductio ad absurdum means
  119. # [04:26] <zewt> also anyone arguing for "do this because i claim you have to" i'd say is admitting that the feature fails on its merits (or else they'd be arguing merits)
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  137. # [05:32] <zewt> endless dbz reference in ebiten why
  138. # [05:33] <zewt> wrong window but okay
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  140. # [05:33] <zewt> <- slummin' it in irssi because desktop irc client ate itself
  141. # [05:36] <MikeSmith> zewt: it's hard to tell from his message which part is a quote and which part is his words
  142. # [05:38] <zewt> MikeSmith: yeah i sent him a private mail asking him to fix his stupid quoting heh
  143. # [05:38] <zewt> it becomes totally unreadable in subquotes
  144. # [05:38] <zewt> dunno which client it is that's doing that
  145. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> I guess it's a common thing with people who don't normally do much mailing-list discussion
  146. # [05:40] <zewt> yeah i figure low chances of him actually fixing it but worth asking
  147. # [05:40] <zewt> i mean i don't bother pestering people about top quoting or other typical stuff these days, but quoting with a differnet color (and a very slightly different color) is terrible
  148. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> well, I know him to be a smart guy, so I expect he will
  149. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> I read it all in plain text so I don't notice the colors and such
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  151. # [05:44] <zewt> yeah i used to read mail in mutt, and people who were all "quotes in red" were infuriating, heh
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  153. # [05:44] <zewt> but the real problem is quotes of quotes, which pretty much always loses it
  154. # [05:44] <zewt> tangental but related, i'm sort of ready to concede the top-quoting thing
  155. # [05:45] <zewt> mostly because it's the only practical thing on mobile
  156. # [05:45] <zewt> also it's easier for people who don't email for a living to learn
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  159. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> zewt: true about movile
  160. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> *mobile
  161. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> but anybody trying to post a lot to mailing lists from their mobile is whacked from the get-go
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  165. # [06:08] <zewt> yeah, detailed replies are one thing, but it's reasonable that people should be able to one-paragraph reply from mobile
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  188. # [07:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: If you want to argue against version suffixing APIs, I suggest emailing to dev-platform
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  190. # [07:57] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: do you mean text-outline doesn’t exist is CSS *anymore*?
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  192. # [07:57] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: or is it coming back again?
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  218. # [09:29] <asmodai> Happy soundcheck day!
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  224. # [09:39] <hsivonen> do all ad providers use document.open()ed docs in iframes these days?
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  226. # [09:39] * hsivonen is prototyping code that’s sensitive to document.open()ed docs in iframes
  227. # [09:40] <hsivonen> and I see the code trigger on lots of pages
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  229. # [09:42] <hsivonen> I need examples of real-world pages where the user would need to use the charset menu
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  269. # [11:04] <zcorpan> zewt: is "straw man" more appropriate (than reductio ad absurdum)?
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  306. # [12:43] <zcorpan> what badness would come out if we "always" sniffed for gzip (at least for browsing contexts, styles and scripts)?
  307. # [12:44] <zcorpan> opera sniffs for SVG+gzip
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  313. # [13:18] <jgraham> Signs that you are out of touch with current problems on the web platform #8: You have advocated polyglot markup or think that people should work on specifying it
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  322. # [13:56] <darobin> zcorpan: isn't that actually already the case? maybe I'm misremembering from SVG habits
  323. # [13:57] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to have a bomless UTF-16 HTML document with UTF-16 declared on the HTTP level at hand?
  324. # [13:57] <zcorpan> darobin: no. even for svg i think only opera and ASV does it (dunno about natively in IE)
  325. # [13:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: data: url good enough?
  326. # [13:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: actually, yes! good point
  327. # [14:00] <darobin> zcorpan: I'm surprised anyone would ship SVG without it, there's a lot of SVG out there without the proper Content-Encoding
  328. # [14:00] <hsivonen> UTF-16 is like XML: The more effort you have put into making it really work, the less likely you are to think using it is good.
  329. # [14:00] <darobin> unless server configurations have become markedly better
  330. # [14:00] <darobin> odinho: thanks for reminding me to use mosh — I don't know how I could ever work without it
  331. # [14:01] <odinho> darobin: Hehe, I had the same feeling.
  332. # [14:01] <hsivonen> data:text/html;charset=UTF-16BE,%20%AC works for my purposes
  333. # [14:01] <darobin> all those stupid people still just using ssh!
  334. # [14:01] <zcorpan> darobin: at least safari/chrome/firefox give xml parse error for .svgz without content-encoding
  335. # [14:01] <hsivonen> who actually uses svgz?
  336. # [14:02] <darobin> zcorpan: interesting. I'm guessing that more recent servers must ship with svgz properly configured
  337. # [14:02] <darobin> it used to be unusable without detection (which is why ASV did it)
  338. # [14:02] <zcorpan> maybe so. my question still stands - why not always sniff and forget about the header?
  339. # [14:03] <zcorpan> is it just because STANDARDS!!1 ?
  340. # [14:03] <zcorpan> or is there a security problem with doing it?
  341. # [14:03] <zcorpan> (like bypassing some security checks?)
  342. # [14:03] <zcorpan> (in servers that do content filtering)
  343. # [14:05] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  344. # [14:05] <darobin> could it conflict with encoding detection?
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  346. # [14:06] <darobin> perhaps more to the point, could you construct chameleon content?
  347. # [14:06] <hsivonen> darobin: not if you sniff for gzip first and hand the uncompressed stream for charset sniffing
  348. # [14:07] <darobin> yeah, good point
  349. # [14:07] <zcorpan> gzip has a magic header
  350. # [14:07] <darobin> indeed, 1F 8B 08
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  353. # [14:08] <darobin> mmm, actually I'm not sure that always works
  354. # [14:08] <darobin> the magic number is for the file format
  355. # [14:08] <zcorpan> third byte isn't part of the magic header
  356. # [14:09] <darobin> it's not clear to me that you're expected to use the magic number when encoding on the wire
  357. # [14:09] <hsivonen> darobin: if you don’t use magic, are’t you supposed to claim deflate rather than gzip?
  358. # [14:09] <darobin> hsivonen: yes, but is that followed properly in the wild?
  359. # [14:10] <darobin> "deflate - despite its name the zlib compression (RFC 1950) should be used"
  360. # [14:11] <hsivonen> darobin: dunno
  361. # [14:11] <darobin> seems like a good area to find skeletons in
  362. # [14:12] <hsivonen> MIME is so brittle compared to magic numbers :-(
  363. # [14:12] * hsivonen is refactoring Gecko’s HTML charset guessing code to make UTF-16 unoverridable in the UI in order to block social engineered UTF-16 XSS
  364. # [14:13] <hsivonen> yay UTF-16
  365. # [14:14] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  366. # [14:15] <darobin> well, external metadata as a design pattern should be shot in the face repeatedly
  367. # [14:15] <darobin> I don't even understand how it can be considered to be a good idea to separate information vital to the processing of a payload from the payload itself
  368. # [14:16] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.133.47.140)
  369. # [14:16] <darobin> (unless you're in well-agreed situations where it can be a performance improvement)
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  371. # [14:19] <hsivonen> UTF-16 is a worse idea than MIME, though
  372. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> We have no lack of bad ideas around here, that much is clear
  373. # [14:22] <jgraham> And a seemingly inexhaustable supply of new ones!
  374. # [14:23] <darobin> can we convert those into energy?
  375. # [14:23] <jgraham> Sure, just print out the public HTML archives and set fire to them
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  377. # [14:24] <darobin> that's not a lot of email :)
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  397. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> Operians: DSK-379497 needs a move
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  401. # [15:14] <odinho> Ms2ger: You just created it, man. It's even moved already. :P
  402. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> odinho, now it just needs to be fixed ;)
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  454. # [17:03] <Ms2ger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0298.html
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  472. # [17:51] * jwalden wonders how exactly Ms2ger got member access, presumably without unveiling
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  479. # [17:59] <kbrosnan> same as how he has commit access??
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  482. # [18:01] <jwalden> yeah, maybe
  483. # [18:01] <jwalden> I thought member access meant you had to be, er, a member tho
  484. # [18:02] <jgraham> Or he is actually timbl?
  485. # [18:02] <jwalden> haha
  486. # [18:02] <jwalden> I mean, I wouldn't be able to load that URL except for working at Mozilla, as best I know
  487. # [18:02] <jwalden> and I thought Ms2ger was a free agent at most
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  490. # [18:11] <Ms2ger> jwalden, dbaron has been so kind to allow me to join the W3C as a Mozilla representative
  491. # [18:12] <jwalden> ah, nice
  492. # [18:12] <jwalden> at least, if we accept member-internal stuff as a constraint :-\
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  547. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: It's not in any current spec. I don't know if it ever was.
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  553. # [20:14] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: it used to be
  554. # [20:14] <hsivonen> it being text-outline. I assume that's the context
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  558. # [20:25] <tantek> hsivonen, TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-css3-text-20070306/#text-outline
  559. # [20:26] <tantek> found by googling for CSS "text-outline"
  560. # [20:26] <tantek> ;)
  561. # [20:28] <tantek> removed in the 2011-09-01 update to CSS3 Text per: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-text-20110901/#recent-changes
  562. # [20:28] <tantek> so yeah THIS is the latest draft of that deleted property: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-text-20110412/#text-outline
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  564. # [20:28] <tantek> *was
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  641. # Session Close: Thu Dec 13 00:00:00 2012

The end :)