/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 14 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  41. # [02:40] <tantek> FYI: for those that feel strongly (either way) about a <main> element: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Main_Page
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  46. # [02:49] <GPHemsley> Of course, tantek means http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Main_element
  47. # [02:49] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  48. # [02:49] <GPHemsley> +1 BTW
  49. # [02:52] <tantek> Thanks GPHemsley :)
  50. # [02:52] <tantek> (especially for the correction ;) )
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  146. # [08:58] <kennyluck> For some reason, Henri's message on Dec 3 about <main> didn't make it to my mail client either.
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  194. # [11:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: can you pls make the background image in http://platform.html5.org/history/ fixed?
  195. # [11:06] <jgraham> zcorpan: (why?)
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  197. # [11:07] <zcorpan> jgraham: it's the kind of background that flickers when scrolling. at least for me.
  198. # [11:08] <jgraham> Oh, OK, not for me, but I see that it might do that
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  200. # [11:10] <niloy> Also, the "fork me on github" image is not loading
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  204. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I just now made it fixed but it still flickers when you scroll :(
  205. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> niloy: also I now removed the forkme link
  206. # [11:22] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you sure the style sheet isn't cached?
  207. # [11:23] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  208. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> yeh
  209. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> maybe not it's just a different kind of flickering
  210. # [11:23] * Joins: Jonadabe (~Jonadabe@bl5-135-203.dsl.telepac.pt)
  211. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> *maybe now
  212. # [11:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you used the wrong property
  213. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> oh
  214. # [11:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: just add fixed to the shorthand
  215. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> what should I used?
  216. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> ojk
  217. # [11:24] <zcorpan> (it's background-attachment)
  218. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> hmm it works fine with the shorthand if I use just background: but not if I use background-attachment:
  219. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: pushed
  220. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> should be flicker-less now
  221. # [11:30] <zcorpan> thanks
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  224. # [11:35] <darobin> mixing shorthand and individual properties is a great way to ensure that something doesn't work :)
  225. # [11:35] <darobin> jgraham: the canonical source for idlharness is in the w3c/testharness.js repo, da?
  226. # [11:36] <jgraham> darobin: Aryeh would be the canonical source of that information, but my non canon answer is yes, that's canonical
  227. # [11:36] <darobin> jgraham: ta, that's good enough for me
  228. # [11:36] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@123.24.118.195)
  229. # [11:36] <darobin> I'll ping Aryeh when he wakes up
  230. # [11:36] <darobin> he's West Coast right?
  231. # [11:37] <jgraham> Israel
  232. # [11:37] <darobin> oh, I somehow thought he was over there
  233. # [11:37] <jgraham> But not working much on standards at the moment
  234. # [11:37] <darobin> he should be awake then, just not on IRC
  235. # [11:38] <darobin> email it is then — thanks
  236. # [11:39] <SimonSapin> can someone with IE test this? data:text/html,<style>body{background:green!ImPortant;background:red}
  237. # [11:48] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tazdevil.opera.com)
  238. # [11:53] <hsivonen> wow. AWWW actually mentions HTML
  239. # [11:53] <hsivonen> and CSS even!
  240. # [11:53] <hsivonen> but not JavaScript or ECMAScript
  241. # [11:54] <hsivonen> doesn’t mention the origin concept
  242. # [11:58] <jgraham> Architecture of the World Wide Web, rather than the noise people make when they see a kitten with a ball of string, presumably?
  243. # [11:58] * jayne_ is now known as jayne
  244. # [12:00] <odinho> SimonSapin: It's green in IE10. In live dom viewer.
  245. # [12:00] <odinho> SimonSapin: data-urls don't seem to work from address bar :-)
  246. # [12:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes
  247. # [12:01] <SimonSapin> odinho: cool, thanks
  248. # [12:01] <SimonSapin> odinho: I wanted to test case-sensitivity of !important. It’s fine if it’s not in a data url.
  249. # [12:02] <darobin> AWWW isn't entirely bad, considering its age and all
  250. # [12:02] <darobin> some parts can be salvaged
  251. # [12:02] <darobin> but there sure is an awful lot that's not covered
  252. # [12:07] <annevk> SimonSapin: you guys are still wasting time on that?
  253. # [12:07] <annevk> if we're updating webarch better make it say that identifiers should be case-sensitive or worst case ASCII case-insensitive
  254. # [12:08] <annevk> (not necessarily worst case I suppose, if identifiers are pretty much ASCII anyway)
  255. # [12:08] <SimonSapin> annevk: the wording for !important suggests it’s sensitive but it’s really insensitive. (I don’t care what kind.)
  256. # [12:12] <annevk> SimonSapin: doesn't the grammar define it to be insensitive?
  257. # [12:12] <annevk> SimonSapin: including allowing silly escapes and what not?
  258. # [12:12] <SimonSapin> annevk: I agree with you but more importantly things should be defined once. (Not defined is bad, defined twice in contradictory ways is bad.)
  259. # [12:12] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
  260. # [12:13] <SimonSapin> annevk: these parts are using prose, not grammar
  261. # [12:13] <annevk> oh okay
  262. # [12:14] <SimonSapin> In "the identifier token ‘important’" escapes should have been taken care of during tokenization
  263. # [12:15] <SimonSapin> (bbl)
  264. # [12:15] <annevk> what I'd expect actually is for the parser to normalize/lowercase those things
  265. # [12:15] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  266. # [12:16] <annevk> e.g. if someone writes BACKGROUND-POSITION or Background-Position you're not really gonna preserve that, same with !Important vs !imPORTANt
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  272. # [13:10] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, What tools did you use to make the railroad diagrams?
  273. # [13:11] <tomasf> kennyluck: I think you're looking for https://github.com/tabatkins/railroad-diagrams
  274. # [13:11] <kennyluck> tomasf, ah, great thanks!
  275. # [13:11] <tomasf> np
  276. # [13:22] * Quits: ricea (ricea@nat/google/x-obikhsoieukkhohg) (Quit: Leaving.)
  277. # [13:25] <hsivonen> do we have a wiki page that explains why versioning formats or APIs is an anti-pattern on the Web?
  278. # [13:27] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
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  280. # [13:43] <darobin> s/on the Web// :)
  281. # [13:43] <darobin> hsivonen: I don't think so, that's something you'd normally get the TAG to write for you
  282. # [13:43] <darobin> where by "normally" I don't mean "usually"
  283. # [13:43] <jgraham> haha
  284. # [13:44] <jgraham> But maybe the whatwg wiki is AWWW for the modern age
  285. # [13:44] <jgraham> But with more adherence to the original web vision by being editable by everyone, not just some shady cabal
  286. # [13:44] <darobin> on principle I refuse to believe that a wiki can produce anything that is architecturally sound
  287. # [13:45] <jgraham> I on principle refuse to believe that the web is architecturally sound
  288. # [13:45] <darobin> yeah, well, there's that too
  289. # [13:46] <darobin> I think that in the first month of being elected to the TAG, one should be assigned a random PHP site to maintain
  290. # [13:46] <hsivonen> darobin: now you are just being cruel
  291. # [13:46] <darobin> you're guaranteed to get a rather sobering "The Web runs on *that*?!" moment
  292. # [13:47] <darobin> hsivonen: just realistic :)
  293. # [13:47] <darobin> once you've maintained the code for a decent sized web shop written by someone who doesn't understand what functions are for, you get a whole new perspective on which parts of the architecture actually matter
  294. # [13:48] <hsivonen> fortunately, for the purposes of the Web architecture, the server side language is a replaceable black box
  295. # [13:49] <hsivonen> so PHP isn’t really a mandatory part of the Architecture
  296. # [13:49] <darobin> indeed — but understanding the mindset is useful
  297. # [13:50] <darobin> for instance when you're handed a site where the developer decided he'd try out this newfangled "templating" idea
  298. # [13:50] <darobin> and went on to create one template per page, then to add comments about how he wasn't sure it helped his productivity
  299. # [13:51] <darobin> and complain about how since page IDs and template ID weren't the same, it made his URLs more complicated
  300. # [13:51] * darobin could go on for a while, happy he's not doing production these days :)
  301. # [13:51] * asdf`_ is now known as asdf`
  302. # [13:59] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  303. # [13:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: In theory it's a replaceable black box, but in practice the difference bwtween XSLT and PHP is architecturally important
  304. # [14:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: do you mean in terms of the consequences of the error patterns PHP enables?
  305. # [14:00] <jgraham> Yes
  306. # [14:01] <jgraham> Realising that the enforcable constraints on content producers are non-existent is important
  307. # [14:02] <jgraham> PHP and similar systems make the lack of constraints very obvious
  308. # [14:02] <jgraham> XSLT tries to impose constraints, so you might think it is reasonable to require them
  309. # [14:05] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  310. # [14:07] <darobin> that's true but I'm not sure it makes such a huge difference
  311. # [14:07] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  312. # [14:07] <darobin> if your constraints are limited to syntax, you're still missing all the constraints at the semantic level
  313. # [14:07] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  314. # [14:07] <darobin> unless you're talking about putting XML Schema in the loop
  315. # [14:09] <hsivonen> XML Schema is totally part of the Architecture! :-)
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  329. # [14:44] <darobin> does anyone know a particularly nasty test to throw at idlharness.js? I want to break it as much as possible with the new parser
  330. # [14:49] * Quits: Kumar (~kumarbhot@203.196.177.156) (Quit: Leaving)
  331. # [14:51] <zcorpan> darobin: test all the specs :-P
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  334. # [14:57] <darobin> zcorpan: at some point, I will, but in the meantime I'd like something smaller that can still be nasty :)
  335. # [14:57] <darobin> notably, so that I can run the tests faster and fix bugs
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  340. # [15:11] <annevk> seems I hit a nerve on www-tag trash talking webarch
  341. # [15:13] <darobin> www-tag talking about webarch, that's new
  342. # [15:16] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238) (Quit: sedovsek)
  343. # [15:19] <annevk> smaug____: nodes have cycle detection?
  344. # [15:19] <annevk> smaug____: why is that?
  345. # [15:20] <annevk> smaug____: and where is that in the DOM specification? ...
  346. # [15:21] <smaug____> annevk: I mean if you have parent-child, you can't make that parent to be child of the child
  347. # [15:22] <annevk> smaug____: oh sure, but walking up the parent chain is always safe
  348. # [15:22] <smaug____> yes
  349. # [15:22] <annevk> smaug____: so you'd have logic for assigning .parent that would do the cycle detection?
  350. # [15:22] <smaug____> yes
  351. # [15:22] <annevk> hmm
  352. # [15:23] <smaug____> that same way nodes have
  353. # [15:23] <smaug____> when you insertBefore/appendChild
  354. # [15:23] <annevk> if you just pass the parent at construction time there's no need for any of that
  355. # [15:23] * Joins: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106)
  356. # [15:24] <smaug____> true
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  369. # [15:54] <zewt> http://www.yellowcabaustin.com/ a certain lack of common sense in putting a phone number in an image
  370. # [15:59] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  371. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> Hmm, in Opera, NodeList.prototype.item === HTMLCollection.prototype.item
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  374. # [16:06] <AlmogBaku> hello
  375. # [16:09] * Quits: richt (~richt@office.oslo.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  376. # [16:12] <AlmogBaku> Is somebody here?
  377. # [16:13] <jgraham> Everybody's dead, dave
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  382. # [16:33] <AlmogBaku> :)
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  385. # [16:39] <AlmogBaku> gi
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  407. # [17:59] <annevk> EventReceiver is hard to spell
  408. # [17:59] <annevk> CustomEventTarget?
  409. # [18:00] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
  410. # [18:01] <darobin> EventRecipient?
  411. # [18:01] <annevk> also hard to spell, no?
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  414. # [18:02] <darobin> I don't find either hard to spell, so I might not be the best source here
  415. # [18:02] <darobin> I'd be more likely to misspell CustomEventTarget just due to length
  416. # [18:02] <annevk> heh
  417. # [18:03] <annevk> two subsequent vowels tend to be confusing, but maybe it's not a big deal
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  423. # [18:09] <annevk> Is it just me being a bit confused with http://intertwingly.net/blog/2012/12/13/Changing-the-TAG ?
  424. # [18:09] <annevk> because if so, if someone could explain, I'm all ears :)
  425. # [18:11] <darobin> I think that Sam's seeing a red herring
  426. # [18:12] <darobin> well, at least for trivial IDLs I'm sort of surprised: updating idlharness to use WebIDL2.js was, like, less than ten lines of changes
  427. # [18:12] * darobin is sure there are other issues lurking though
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  444. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, fwiw, anolis supports inter-document links ;)
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  453. # [18:57] <annevk> ah, Sam explained, hurray
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  459. # [18:59] <annevk> the +1 emails are starting to annoy me
  460. # [19:00] <annevk> when a group is large, they're just pointless and non-representative
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  465. # [19:10] <annevk> smaug____: could you comment on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19962 maybe?
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  467. # [19:11] <smaug____> will do
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  472. # [19:15] <annevk> smaug____: any ideas for an easier to spell EventReceiver btw? CustomEventTarget maybe?
  473. # [19:17] <annevk> smaug____: might take a while for me to get to that btw, I want to fix the cross-boundary event stuff first as that'll introduce some new terminology that'll make it easier to introduce it
  474. # [19:17] <smaug____> CustomEventTarget sounds ok too
  475. # [19:23] <annevk> ta
  476. # [19:25] <tantek> what makes it Custom?
  477. # [19:25] <tantek> are target/receiver synonymous in this context?
  478. # [19:27] <annevk> it's Custom because it's for use by developers to create their own event target chains without having to resort to "heavy weight" node objects
  479. # [19:27] <annevk> and yes, they are synonymous
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  489. # [19:52] <AlmogBaku> ?
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  491. # [19:55] <AlmogBaku> hello everybody\
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  502. # [20:15] <Yuhong> <darobin> hsivonen: I don't think so, that's something you'd normally get the TAG to write for you
  503. # [20:15] <Yuhong> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Evolution
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  506. # [20:18] <annevk> what subtlety am I missing here?
  507. # [20:18] <annevk> var x = self; document.open(); w(x === self)
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  510. # [20:23] <Hixie> annevk: what are you expecting and what are you getting?
  511. # [20:24] <Hixie> i would imagine that would return true, since x and self are both WindowProxy objects proxying the same underlying Window
  512. # [20:24] <annevk> I'm getting true, I was expecting false given that document.open() replaces the Window object
  513. # [20:24] <annevk> okay
  514. # [20:24] <Hixie> try something like self.x = {}; var x = self; document.open(); w(x === self.x)
  515. # [20:24] <annevk> Hixie: well, it's not the same underlying Window
  516. # [20:25] <annevk> Hixie: does the "old" Window still have an associated Document object?
  517. # [20:26] <Hixie> the Document is associated with both Windows
  518. # [20:26] <Hixie> but what i meant was that the WindowProxy objects of x and self were the same WindowProxy object
  519. # [20:26] <Hixie> so regardless of what Window is active, they'll proxy the same window
  520. # [20:26] <Hixie> so if one changes, so does the other
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  522. # [20:26] <annevk> right, understood
  523. # [20:27] <annevk> Hixie: does the spec make sure to identify the right window whenever there's talk about the document's associated Window? Or is that usually talking about the associated browsing context?
  524. # [20:28] <Hixie> i'm sure there are mistakes
  525. # [20:28] <Hixie> i haven't audited it
  526. # [20:28] <Hixie> i also need to audit the use of "entry script" vs "caller script" and "script origin" vs "script effective origin"
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  530. # [20:31] <annevk> I'm glad both Windows are associated with the same Document, that will make XMLHttpRequest work at least
  531. # [20:31] * Parts: victor5 (~Adium@AAubervilliers-651-1-249-118.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  532. # [20:33] <annevk> I guess at some point I should learn how all this works so I don't need to fact check everything all the time
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  537. # [20:44] <Hixie> annevk: once you've learnt that, don't forget to teach me
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  542. # [20:50] <annevk> http://i.imgur.com/hgBii.png o_O
  543. # [20:53] <espadrine> that's how babies learn their <main> purpose in life
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  553. # [21:24] <annevk> I quite like how much progress we managed to make in the past couple of years. I still remember being told years ago that it would probably be very hard to update the DOM specifications to make getAttribute() return anything but a string, and make passing nodes across document boundaries not throw. Now it's no longer "can we update these specs", but rather "what do the specs need to say" which is so much better...
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  557. # [21:33] <annevk> The Apple apologists would be a better read if every time they bring up Apple and privacy they also addressed that Apple still does not put the "Limit Ad Tracking" option under the Privacy tab in iOS but rather under General -> About -> (scroll all the way down) Advertising
  558. # [21:33] <annevk> http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/12/14/maps-blame-game/ is the latest in a series
  559. # [21:33] <Hixie> i still don't get how "give me ads that are less relevant" has any bearing on privacy
  560. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> Hixie, your views are known ;)
  561. # [21:34] <annevk> (I'm a happy iPhone fwiw)
  562. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> annevk, oh, can I have you? I could use one
  563. # [21:35] <annevk> hah, iPhone user*
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  565. # [21:37] <annevk> Hixie: if it gets to the point where you could be profiled, it seems like it would impact my privacy
  566. # [21:37] <Hixie> "profiled"?
  567. # [21:37] <Hixie> maybe i don't understand what you mean by "privacy"
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  570. # [21:40] <annevk> Hixie: since it's unclear what data is being stored, the data might lead back to me somehow, which I don't really like (although given the services I use I probably lost on that front already)
  571. # [21:40] <Hixie> "lead back to you" from where? for whom?
  572. # [21:41] <annevk> Hixie: from the data collected, by those who got access to the data
  573. # [21:41] <Hixie> wouldn't your IP be sufficient for that?
  574. # [21:41] <Hixie> i don't understand what we're worried about
  575. # [21:42] <Hixie> especially given that your phone company already knows your precise location at all times and that your credit card company knows everything you buy and that governments can subpeona those
  576. # [21:42] <annevk> I'm not worried, I just don't like it
  577. # [21:42] <annevk> I don't like that either :)
  578. # [21:43] <annevk> If I was worried I would be using Tor
  579. # [21:43] <annevk> but even that is not super I heard
  580. # [21:47] <Hixie> tor doesn't help you with the phone company or credit card company
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  593. # [21:59] <bholley> Hixie: would it be possible to increase the MTU for whatwg digest emails?
  594. # [21:59] <Hixie> probably, what does that mean? :-)
  595. # [21:59] <bholley> Hixie: the "daily digest" mode sends more than one digest per day for "busy lists"
  596. # [21:59] <bholley> Hixie: and whatwg is very busy
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  600. # [22:00] <bholley> Hixie: it seems to send out a new digest every 10 or so emails
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  602. # [22:00] <Hixie> aah
  603. # [22:00] <Hixie> send me mail asking me ian@hixie.ch
  604. # [22:00] <Hixie> i'll do it after lunch
  605. # [22:00] <Hixie> bbiab
  606. # [22:00] <bholley> Hixie: thanks :-)
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  650. # Session Close: Sat Dec 15 00:00:00 2012

The end :)