/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 17 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [01:00] <GPHemsley> The opinion of the WHATWG is that Chrome-in-IE is bad, right?
  9. # [01:00] <zewt> why would whatwg care?
  10. # [01:01] <zewt> (not that "whatwg" is an entity with a single opinion or anything :)
  11. # [01:06] <GPHemsley> zewt: I'm not sure. I was thinking it would cause some sort of compatibility issue somewhere if a page included an X-UA-Compatible declaration that forced IE users into Chrome.
  12. # [01:07] <GPHemsley> (Though I suppose that would be a rather small set of users.)
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  14. # [01:09] <zewt> don't really know what that means, but if it lets people stuck in IE8 to trick their incompetent employment overlords into letting them use something less broken, that seems like a win
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  20. # [01:28] <GPHemsley> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_Frame
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  151. # [11:01] <Stevef_> darobin_: note bugs I filed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Dec/0085.html are not directly related to general alt text advice clean up
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  165. # [11:16] <darobin> Stevef_: yes, I noticed — thanks a lot!
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  168. # [11:21] <Stevef_> darobin: don't think they are controversial since mostly about fixing inconsitiences with agreed upon conformance requirement
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  170. # [11:22] <darobin> they didn't look controversial at first brush, I'll be looking at them more closely during the week
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  192. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> darobin, fwiw, there's a TODO in idlharness about the parser not supporting legacycallers, but I couldn't care less about testing those :)
  193. # [12:43] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah I saw that in a comment IIRC, but it's not something that I would see as a chart-topping feature request
  194. # [12:44] <darobin> one thing that wouldn't hurt would be a test suite for idlharness — but at some point I fear being trapped in an endlessly recursive reality
  195. # [12:45] <zcorpan> hsivonen: can the timeout be increased in v.nu? http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jabcreations.com%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml1-ruby-rdf-svg-mathml.rnc+http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml.sch+http%3A%2F%2Fc.validator.nu%2Fall-html4%2F&parser=xml&showsource=yes times out most of the time for me
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  199. # [13:01] <zcorpan> filed a bug
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  203. # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: didn’t time out for me now
  204. # [13:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but yeah, waiting on IO is cheap except takes up a thread
  205. # [13:14] <hsivonen> zcorpan: up until now, no one had complained about the timeouts, IIRC
  206. # [13:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: doesn't for me now, either. but it did more than half of the time half an hour ago
  207. # [13:16] <zcorpan> hsivonen: timing out might be more expensive than not timing out since it probably causes the user to try again (and again) :-)
  208. # [13:20] <hsivonen> :-)
  209. # [13:20] <hsivonen> I’m mainly worried about all threads ending up waiting and the server hitting a thread number limit
  210. # [13:21] <hsivonen> (cue rant about Node.js vs. Java servlet threading model)
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  214. # [13:32] <annevk> So I had plans to expand the URL API a bit. But maybe I should wait until the current one is implemented more widely?
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  216. # [13:36] <SimonSapin> annevk: I guess it depends how big/valuable is what you want to add
  217. # [13:37] <annevk> Well, they're mostly ideas, in part based on what some libraries have out there and in part based on discussion with some of those library developers.
  218. # [13:37] <annevk> E.g. URL.isEqual(URL, options)
  219. # [13:38] <annevk> URL.segments (ideally returns a subclass of Array)
  220. # [13:38] <annevk> and maybe basename/dirname
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  222. # [13:39] <SimonSapin> annevk: could these be left up to libraries?
  223. # [13:42] <annevk> SimonSapin: everything can :)
  224. # [13:42] <annevk> SimonSapin: but the whole reason we're adding new URL and such is because people prefer not to write and maintain those libraries
  225. # [13:44] <annevk> rwaldron: you around?
  226. # [13:44] <annevk> rwaldron: I was wondering if Object.observe is also available on Map/Array and such
  227. # [13:45] <annevk> rwaldron: and since you compare it with mutation observers in your post I wonder if it's related to the task queue or if it's immediate
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  229. # [13:52] <annevk> oh
  230. # [13:53] <annevk> per https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2012-August/024555.html "delivery is async-ish (huzzah!)" which is not acceptable :(
  231. # [13:54] <annevk> I wonder how it's even possible to define a feature like that in ECMAScript which has no concept of a task queue
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  238. # [14:41] <smaug____> hmm, has some often used page stopped using mutation event listeneres
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  240. # [14:41] <smaug____> based on telemetry data something changed mid September
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  245. # [14:49] <annevk> sounds good
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  253. # [15:30] <annevk> hmm, posted to es-discuss
  254. # [15:31] <annevk> http://img3.ranker.com/list_img/9660/549660/full/the-best-of-the-and-quot-i-don-t-know-what-i-m-doing-and-quot-meme.jpg seems applicable
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  257. # [15:36] <annevk> I guess at some point I should also try to post about IDL so we can get past the "IDL is fugly" and instead do something productive
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  259. # [15:42] <rwaldron> annevk re: set/map etc in Object.observe, no they are not yet part of the spec.
  260. # [15:42] <annevk> hmm, forgot to ask about the async stuff was envisioned
  261. # [15:43] <annevk> rwaldron: ah okay
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  265. # [16:00] <smaug____> annevk: where do we do type conversion so that a new object is created? (assuming I've understood correctly the 'set blob, get entry in filelist')
  266. # [16:00] <annevk> smaug____: input.type = 5; input.type > "text" (I think)
  267. # [16:01] <smaug____> no objects created
  268. # [16:02] <annevk> why is that a criteria though?
  269. # [16:02] <smaug____> setter would always need to define how the new object is created
  270. # [16:02] <smaug____> and it just feels odd
  271. # [16:04] <annevk> seems natural to me :)
  272. # [16:05] <annevk> assign this object a list of Y objects; return a list of Y objects wrapped in a Z object
  273. # [16:05] <smaug____> nothing natural there :)
  274. # [16:05] <annevk> given how you implement get/set for attributes in JavaScript it's kinda normal too they're gonna do distinct things
  275. # [16:06] * smaug____ has the feeling he will not win this battle, since bz and sicking might want the feature
  276. # [16:06] <smaug____> annevk: that is no reason to make the default setters/getters to work in unexpected way
  277. # [16:07] <annevk> yeah, well, you also don't like putforwards, which I think is pretty great (and wish we had more, e.g. for .style)
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  279. # [16:08] <annevk> I prefer convenience over artificial symmetry
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  282. # [16:10] <annevk> whoa, original DOM had Range support for Attr
  283. # [16:10] <annevk> nuts I tell you
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  285. # [16:12] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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  288. # [16:14] <darobin> there isn't much that Attr didn't have
  289. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> Sanity
  290. # [16:14] <darobin> well, sanity...
  291. # [16:14] <darobin> heh, you beat me to it :)
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  296. # [16:20] <annevk> I wonder if Indexed DB ended up removing DOMStringList
  297. # [16:21] <annevk> nope
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  299. # [16:22] <annevk> CSSOM still has it too
  300. # [16:22] <annevk> Only Hixie removed it from HTML
  301. # [16:22] <annevk> Kinda tempted to remove it from DOM
  302. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> sgtm
  303. # [16:26] <annevk> boom
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  353. # [17:52] <marcosc> Peoples, quick question... can adding a WebIDL serializer to an object cause conflicts with Web Workers? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012OctDec/0722.html
  354. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> ... eh?
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  357. # [17:55] <marcosc> Ms2ger: was that a response to me?
  358. # [17:55] <annevk> What's a serializer?
  359. # [17:56] <marcosc> annevk: .toJSON ... get you pointer ..one sec
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  363. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> marcosc, no, that's nonsense
  364. # [17:57] <marcosc> annevk: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-serializer
  365. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> If input is a host object (e.g. a DOM node)
  366. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> Throw a DataCloneError exception and abort the overall structured clone algorithm.
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  368. # [17:57] <marcosc> right, that's what I thought
  369. # [17:58] <marcosc> thanks Ms2ger :)
  370. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> Np
  371. # [17:58] <annevk> so which objects use this serializer thingie?
  372. # [17:58] <annevk> and why isn't it called json?
  373. # [17:59] <annevk> heycam|away: if serializer is JSON, maybe name it that way?
  374. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> Performance should, but I don't think they bothered
  375. # [18:00] <marcosc> annevk: I think it's to do with getting for free from ES6
  376. # [18:00] <annevk> not following
  377. # [18:01] <marcosc> If I read WebIDL correctly, ES6 has a native .toJSON function on Object?
  378. # [18:01] <annevk> fwiw: http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#introduction-to-dom-ranges
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  380. # [18:02] <Ms2ger> Interesting example
  381. # [18:03] <annevk> took me ages to find something usable, at some point I figured an image and a sentence would do, which gave me w3cmemes :)
  382. # [18:05] <annevk> <- bad at examples
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  385. # [18:13] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  386. # [18:24] <tantek> good morning dglazkov!
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  412. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> cool to see http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#introduction-to-dom-ranges
  413. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> but dunno why you put the scary quotes in the heading
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  416. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> annevk: ↑
  417. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> also "In the node tree above a range can be used" might would be nicer with a comma in there
  418. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> "In the node tree above, a range can be used"
  419. # [19:14] <Hixie> i think amazon may be in the process of updating their graphics assets
  420. # [19:15] <annevk> MikeSmith: I used the quotes in "The DOM" and "DOM Events" too
  421. # [19:15] <annevk> MikeSmith: because they're not quite the official name anymore
  422. # [19:15] <Hixie> as i'm going through checkout, it's alternating between 2008-style graphics and 1998-style graphics
  423. # [19:15] <annevk> MikeSmith: but still commonly used
  424. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: ah OK
  425. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> Hixie: weird
  426. # [19:15] <annevk> open to changing that though, will add the comma
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  428. # [19:16] <annevk> MikeSmith: "Michael™ Smith" for ack right?
  429. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: speaking of weird, I notice some weird formatting after http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-range-startcontainer etc.
  430. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  431. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> there's extra horizontal space after the dfn terms
  432. # [19:17] <annevk> that's an intentional <hr>
  433. # [19:17] <annevk> :)
  434. # [19:17] <annevk> to provide some space between related stuff
  435. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> oh but only in Chrome maybe
  436. # [19:18] <annevk> it matches the IDL formatting
  437. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> hmm went away after reload anyway
  438. # [19:18] <annevk> but subtle I suppose
  439. # [19:18] <annevk> bit*
  440. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: but what I was seeing was like an exta 2em of space after each one
  441. # [19:19] <annevk> after each? oh
  442. # [19:19] <annevk> sounds like a rendering glitch
  443. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> yeah
  444. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> anyway I also like the comment in the source with a link to w3cmemes
  445. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> more specs should have those
  446. # [19:21] <matjas> zcorpan: http://simon.html5.org/specs/quirks-mode says “This document has been superseded. See http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/quirks-mode/raw-file/tip/Overview.html.” but that URL is broken now
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  448. # [19:22] <Hixie> (quirks.spec.whatwg.org in case you are still looking for it)
  449. # [19:22] <matjas> thanks
  450. # [19:23] <annevk> thanks for the feedback MikeSmith
  451. # [19:23] <annevk> adding a sentence on attributes now that I forgot, and your comma
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  453. # [19:24] <zcorpan> matjas: i've tried to get that to redirect but failed
  454. # [19:24] <Hixie> MikeSmith: in case pubteam or whoever is in charge of mail archives doesn't read www-talk, someone is offering archive e-mail mboxes there for some historical lists
  455. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah saw that just now
  456. # [19:25] <annevk> whoa that's cool
  457. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> will forward it to the systems team
  458. # [19:25] <annevk> can someone ping me when they're up? :)
  459. # [19:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: committed
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  462. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> annevk: cool
  463. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> I e-mailed systems team about the archives
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  469. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> matjas: heycam|away made a patch that adds details+summary support to Gecko. I tried it with your http://mathiasbynens.be/demo/html5-details-jquery demo page and it works as expected except that the disclosure triangles aren't displayed
  470. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> but they are displayed if I turn off your CSS
  471. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> there are some try builds of it if you want to check
  472. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=591737#c22
  473. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> or can build from heycam|away patch https://bug591737.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=692862
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  587. # [23:45] <annevk> dglazkov: thanks for the reply
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  589. # [23:47] <annevk> dglazkov: it might not be before mid-Feb or so that I'll fix DOM event handling, though now more of the details become clear maybe I can fit it in somehow sooner
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  593. # [23:49] <Hixie> jonlee: yt?
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  600. # Session Close: Tue Dec 18 00:00:00 2012

The end :)