/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-12-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 21 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <erlehmann> but then, again i think that sort should not be overloaded with two meanings
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> granted
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> but (a) it's one meaning and (b) i don't understand how else to do it
  6. # [00:00] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  7. # [00:00] <erlehmann> can you leave the issue open? i mean, there is no implementation yet?
  8. # [00:00] <Hixie> this whole thing is open
  9. # [00:00] <Hixie> we're just talking about my first straw man here
  10. # [00:01] <erlehmann> well, the meaning may be „one“ in one sense, but it is not atomic
  11. # [00:01] <erlehmann> it can be decomposed
  12. # [00:01] <Hixie> (e.g. what does <tr> <th reverse> <th reverse> mean?)
  13. # [00:01] <Hixie> lots of things can be decomposed
  14. # [00:01] <erlehmann> well, the boolean „should this be ordered reversed“ cannot be decomposed
  15. # [00:01] <Hixie> value="102" can be decomposted into value-units="2" value-tens="0" value-hundreds="1"
  16. # [00:02] <Hixie> a boolean is the one thing that typically cannot be decomposed, agreed
  17. # [00:02] <Hixie> but life will be hell if we decompose everything down to bit level in the markup :-P
  18. # [00:02] <erlehmann> and here we have an attribute containing a boolean and an integer
  19. # [00:02] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_afk
  20. # [00:02] <erlehmann> that does not seem very clever to me.
  21. # [00:03] <Hixie> a signed number is just a boolean and an unsigned number
  22. # [00:03] <erlehmann> i cannot imagine that it be pleasant to work with if one first needs to split on a space and then work on it
  23. # [00:03] <Hixie> should we decompose all signed numbers :-)
  24. # [00:03] <erlehmann> nope.
  25. # [00:03] <Hixie> why would you work on it?
  26. # [00:03] <Hixie> again, if you need a way to use this, that's what APIs are for
  27. # [00:04] <Hixie> so far i'm not aware of any use cases for this entire feature to be anything but write-only
  28. # [00:04] <erlehmann> some data structures can make UA processing unnecessarily complex
  29. # [00:04] <Hixie> as anne said, UAs will almost certainly have optimised forms for all this internally
  30. # [00:05] <erlehmann> those two things, sort order and reversal of list, are at to different levels
  31. # [00:05] <erlehmann> sort order is „how does this thing behave to other things“
  32. # [00:05] <erlehmann> and reverse is „how does this thing behave internally“
  33. # [00:05] <erlehmann> (i should do more philosophy of language)
  34. # [00:06] <Hixie> the alternative syntaxes i've considered all end up being more messed up
  35. # [00:06] <erlehmann> i think <tr> <th reverse> <th reverse> could mean „sort in markup order, reverse columns“
  36. # [00:07] <Hixie> so reverse="" implies sort=""?
  37. # [00:07] <Hixie> i thought they were unrelated :-)
  38. # [00:07] <erlehmann> oh, wait, sort implies sortable?
  39. # [00:07] <Hixie> no
  40. # [00:07] <erlehmann> so sortable is like controls attribute for audio? only for showing interface?
  41. # [00:07] <Hixie> sort="" means "sort the table by this column"
  42. # [00:07] <erlehmann> i see.
  43. # [00:07] <Hixie> sortable="" means "show UI for columns of this table to allow the sort="" attribute to be set"
  44. # [00:08] <Hixie> right
  45. # [00:08] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.105.178.getinternet.no)
  46. # [00:09] <erlehmann> hmm.
  47. # [00:10] <erlehmann> btw, i often bring up the WHATWG process in discussions about community management
  48. # [00:10] <erlehmann> (non sequitur, i know)
  49. # [00:10] <Hixie> the process being throw things at the wall and let whoever's around pick up the pieces and try to come up with something pretty? :-)
  50. # [00:10] <erlehmann> and i think it is great how low the barrier to entry is. submitting patches to wordpress is harder.
  51. # [00:11] <erlehmann> unnatural selection!
  52. # [00:12] <erlehmann> if you have sort="1 reverse", then the UA needs to decompose it before processing for either of them and compose it before writing it back.
  53. # [00:12] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.105.178.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  54. # [00:12] <erlehmann> btw, reverse without sort could be meaningless if you want to avoid implications.
  55. # [00:13] * Quits: Druide_ (~Druid@ip-178-203-141-163.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  56. # [00:14] <erlehmann> i am beginning to think that <table orderby="1 2 3 4 5"> could be the superiour solution to sort attributes. just move the activated column to front.
  57. # [00:14] <erlehmann> let me polyfill that
  58. # [00:15] <JonathanNeal> "let me polyfill that" ripe for the memes.
  59. # [00:16] <erlehmann> coincidentally, i am writing a book about internet memes
  60. # [00:16] <erlehmann> currently
  61. # [00:16] <erlehmann> :3
  62. # [00:16] <erlehmann> oh, anyone of the WHATWG will be at 29C3 in hamburg?
  63. # [00:17] <erlehmann> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress
  64. # [00:17] <erlehmann> (I ask that every year and no one is there)
  65. # [00:18] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  66. # [00:19] * JohnAlbin_afk is now known as JohnAlbin
  67. # [00:25] <Hixie> erlehmann: the problem with that is it is very brittle if the author adds a new column
  68. # [00:26] <erlehmann> why?
  69. # [00:26] <erlehmann> just add the number of the new column to orderby?
  70. # [00:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: so jeff tells me that it's not a violation after all, because none of the changes after LC were substantial (lol)
  71. # [00:27] <Hixie> erlehmann: all the column numbers change
  72. # [00:27] <Hixie> erlehmann: but the change happens removed from the place you add the columns
  73. # [00:28] <erlehmann> hixie so adding new columns is a common enough operation, but you do not want ids? then, i see.
  74. # [00:29] <JonathanNeal> In practice, should an <aside> ever be a child of <main>?
  75. # [00:29] <erlehmann> jonathanneal, have you tried that rationalist taboo game with <main> already?
  76. # [00:30] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.142.47.203) (Quit: sedovsek)
  77. # [00:31] <erlehmann> i think building my own table sorting stuff will enable me to understand theproblems better
  78. # [00:31] <erlehmann> so i do not ask that many questions
  79. # [00:31] <erlehmann> i do not want to annoy
  80. # [00:32] <erlehmann> but i realize i ask many questions. sometimes in class at school i was asking more questions than anyone else
  81. # [00:32] <erlehmann> and i do not know if it is because many people are smarter than me or because i have the courage to ask.
  82. # [00:32] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: yes, someone wrote an excellent description of the main element without using the word "main" or some other obviously thesaurical equivalent.
  83. # [00:33] <erlehmann> silly double bind!
  84. # [00:33] <erlehmann> jonathanneal, URL?
  85. # [00:34] <JonathanNeal> Something like "defining content that is unique to a document but excludes content that is repeated across a set of documents"
  86. # [00:34] <JonathanNeal> *but excluding
  87. # [00:35] <JonathanNeal> Actually, it's here, and written better https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-extensions/raw-file/tip/maincontent/index.html
  88. # [00:35] <erlehmann> jonathanneal, so that includes advertisments.
  89. # [00:36] <erlehmann> ?
  90. # [00:37] <erlehmann> jonathanneal, what distinguishes the <main> element from an all-encompassing <article> ?
  91. # [00:37] <JonathanNeal> this is addressed in http://www.webmonkey.com/2012/12/proposed-main-element-would-help-html-get-to-the-point/
  92. # [00:37] <erlehmann> oh, effect on the document outline
  93. # [00:38] <erlehmann> it has none
  94. # [00:38] <erlehmann> hmm, is role=main bad?
  95. # [00:39] <erlehmann> it seems it is easier to update sites with new attributes without breaking anything than updating them with new elements
  96. # [00:39] <erlehmann> because the latter could break far more scripts and stylesheets
  97. # [00:40] <erlehmann> jonathanneal, is the main element coming from the department of redundancy department?
  98. # [00:41] <erlehmann> <article role=main> would be much more useful for content i think.
  99. # [00:41] <erlehmann> because then one could have an outline and skip to the important parts in the outline!
  100. # [00:42] <erlehmann> if <main> does not affect the outline, then it is a herpy derpy <div>
  101. # [00:42] <JonathanNeal> If you google some combination of "html main element" you should see all the arguments, for and (I'm sure) even against.
  102. # [00:43] <JonathanNeal> erlehmann: i'll note that, and use <header> in only the most herpy derby of situations. i was asking about something contextually about <main> and did not intend to describe my rationalist taboo game and then arguments for inclusion.
  103. # [00:43] <erlehmann> caveat „there are arguments, just google them“ loses the discussion. i deem this jonathan neal's law. ;)
  104. # [00:44] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-meopmdxonbuifrww) (Quit: back later maybe)
  105. # [00:44] <erlehmann> (i prefer URLs)
  106. # [00:44] <JonathanNeal> you are definitely letting me know your preferences.
  107. # [00:45] <erlehmann> great!
  108. # [00:45] <erlehmann> super happy fun time!
  109. # [00:46] <JonathanNeal> So, now that we've discussed all of that, would you like to answer my question?
  110. # [00:47] <Hixie> while i'm afk, let me know if I've missed anything (other than the XXX bits) in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/temp
  111. # [00:47] <Hixie> bbiab
  112. # [00:49] <erlehmann> sortNow() seems weird
  113. # [00:49] <JonathanNeal> Whatever happened to <subline> ?
  114. # [00:49] <JonathanNeal> And is <hgroup> dead?
  115. # [00:50] <erlehmann> what was <subline> ?
  116. # [00:50] <JonathanNeal> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup
  117. # [00:50] <erlehmann> hgroup is there and is useful for outlines
  118. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> <subline> was <hgroup> in another form.
  119. # [00:51] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  120. # [00:52] <JonathanNeal> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11828 erlehmann more on the subject
  121. # [00:53] <JonathanNeal> I thought Hixie removed hgroup.
  122. # [00:53] <erlehmann> oh do i have to remove hgroup now from my websites?
  123. # [00:53] <erlehmann> how do i do subtitles then?
  124. # [00:54] <JonathanNeal> http://html5doctor.com/the-hgroup-hokey-cokey/
  125. # [00:54] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins should be able to offer a compressed version of the battle's end.
  126. # [00:55] <erlehmann> multiple mentionings of hgroup https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=hgroup
  127. # [00:55] <erlehmann> i have to read CSSsquirrel again, do i?
  128. # [00:55] <erlehmann> i read it some time ago
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  131. # [01:09] <Hixie> hgroup isn't going anyewhere
  132. # [01:09] <Hixie> erlehmann: yeah, what would you call it?
  133. # [01:09] <Hixie> erlehmann: i was stuck for names :-(
  134. # [01:10] <erlehmann> hixie what would i call what? what would i call hgroup?
  135. # [01:10] <Hixie> what would you call sortNow
  136. # [01:11] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:35fe:2b6:3152:f2c2) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  137. # [01:12] <Hixie> maybe stopSort() should be stopSorting()
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  139. # [01:13] <Hixie> (erlehmann ^)
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  141. # [01:15] <erlehmann> ah
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  144. # [01:16] <erlehmann> Hixie, what happens when stopSort() is called and the sortable attribute is set? are the controls visible stills
  145. # [01:16] <erlehmann> ?
  146. # [01:17] <erlehmann> also, i have no idea how to call that. i think i do not understand all the issues
  147. # [01:17] <Hixie> stopSort() just means that no column is now marked as being sorted
  148. # [01:17] <Hixie> doesn't change the UI other than remove the indicator as to which column is currently sorted
  149. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> <table>.stopSort().
  150. # [01:20] <erlehmann> how is it internally represented which column is sorted?
  151. # [01:21] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  152. # [01:21] <Hixie> internally to what?
  153. # [01:23] <erlehmann> let me rephrase that
  154. # [01:24] <erlehmann> does having sort attribute mean something is sorted and the absense of them mean it is not sorted?
  155. # [01:24] <erlehmann> or is there an intermediatelayer
  156. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> If by "not sorted" you mean "not guaranteed to be sorted", then yes.
  157. # [01:25] <erlehmann> i think i'll wait until this is done. and sleep some time
  158. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> The presence of "sort" on a <th> means that the column the <th> is in is actively sorted.
  159. # [01:26] <erlehmann> so does the absense mean the dom goes to its original state?
  160. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> That is, upon setting the table is rearranged to be sorted, and if you mutate the table it adjust the sort accordingly.
  161. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> The absence means it stops being actively sorted.
  162. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> It goes back to acting like a normal table.
  163. # [01:26] <erlehmann> or does the absense mean that it stops sorting but the previous dom manipulation prevails?
  164. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> That.
  165. # [01:26] <erlehmann> ah
  166. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> I think the main purpose of stopSorting() will be to *reset* sorting. Otherwise, if you call sortNow() on a new column, it'll just become the new primary sort column, and the previous one will downgrade to a secondary sort column.
  167. # [01:30] <Hixie> setting the attribute doesn't immediately cause a sort, either, so maybe it should
  168. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> Yes, I think so.
  169. # [01:30] <Hixie> that would mean we don't need sortNow()
  170. # [01:30] <Hixie> however
  171. # [01:31] <Hixie> it would mean that setting an attribute causes a change to the DOM
  172. # [01:31] <Hixie> other than the attribute
  173. # [01:31] <Hixie> which is a new level of wacky, maybe?
  174. # [01:31] <Hixie> hmmm
  175. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> Depends. Sync or async?
  176. # [01:31] <erlehmann> all of this is pretty wacky
  177. # [01:31] <erlehmann> tables are black magic
  178. # [01:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins: dunno
  179. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> You still want sortNow(), I think. Even if we did start sorting the table after setting the attribute, it woudl be extra-wacky to also downgrade the sort level of the other sorted headings.
  180. # [01:32] <Hixie> oh wait, we still need sortNow
  181. # [01:32] <Hixie> you need sortNow() because it also sets the attributes
  182. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  183. # [01:34] <Hixie> maybe setting the attribute shouldn't do the sort, so that you can set several in a row
  184. # [01:34] <Hixie> which you almost always will want to, if you're doing that
  185. # [01:34] <Hixie> so maybe table should have a .forceSort()?
  186. # [01:34] <Hixie> i don't like sortNow() as a name, for the method on <th>
  187. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> I can't come up with a better name. :/
  188. # [01:35] <Hixie> me either :-(
  189. # [01:35] <Hixie> sort() would be perfect
  190. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> Dude, just make the attribute be sorted.
  191. # [01:36] <Hixie> it's just so weird to have a past-tense attribute to do something in the future
  192. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> Nah, it's an adjective, not a past-tense verb.
  193. # [01:37] <Hixie> fine fine
  194. # [01:37] <Hixie> sorted it is
  195. # [01:40] <erlehmann> i find it funny how you are lacking words to describe what is a feature many want!
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  198. # [01:47] <JonathanNeal> <table sorted>?
  199. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Nah, the <table sortable> attribute is like <video controls> - it says you want sorting UI, but has no effect on sorting itself.
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  201. # [01:49] <JonathanNeal> I see. So this is for javascript? Like Array.prototype.sort?
  202. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> No, you can still use <th sorted> on table headers to sort by the columns declaratively, without needing any script.
  203. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Check out the very first part of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/temp
  204. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> It explains the new stuff being added (except we've slightly changed the names since Hixie last updated that).
  205. # [01:52] <JonathanNeal> I guess it was the () that was throwing me off.
  206. # [01:52] <jsbell> Have a polyfill implemented yet? :)
  207. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: There are JS functions for dealing with the sorting, too, of course.
  208. # [01:52] <JonathanNeal> a polyfill could be written on the fly, is it necessary?
  209. # [01:53] <TabAtkins> The only difficult part of the polyfill would be validating the constraints.
  210. # [01:54] <JonathanNeal> what would this feature be called? sortable tables?
  211. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> (Only paying attention to sorting-capable <th> elements, treating rows as automatic based on spans, etc.)
  212. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> s/automatic/atomic/
  213. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Regarding adding sorted attributes via script which don't automatically start sorting, what about adding .sort() to <table> as well, with it just running through and picking up all the sorted columns again
  214. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> ?
  215. # [01:56] <JonathanNeal> I was wondering why you wouldn't just use existing names, like sort, etc.
  216. # [01:56] <JonathanNeal> although .sortTable might not conflict with any potential future .sort that would apply agnostically to elements.
  217. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Before, Hixie used "sort" as the attribute name, so he coudln't use "sort" as the method name as well (attributes normally reflect as a same-named property).
  218. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: I'm not sure how I would sort arbitrary elements. They need to be linear collections of some kind, and tables are really the only thing that fits that bill.
  219. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> Did I hear right that sort takes a value? sort="1", etc?
  220. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: lists fit the bit too.
  221. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Maybe, yeah.
  222. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Yes, the value is an integer >= 1, which determines the sort order.
  223. # [01:59] <JonathanNeal> So, this document I'm reading is using unagreed or outdated terminology in some spots?
  224. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> sorted=1 is the primary sort column, with sorted=2 used to break ties, etc.
  225. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> Yes. ^_^
  226. # [01:59] <JonathanNeal> for the sake of discussion, why not http://oksoclap.com/whatwg-sortable-tables ?
  227. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> Because Hixie's document is in his own webspace and easy for him to use?
  228. # [02:01] <JonathanNeal> Yea, it's just that I was trying to understand the discussion and you said it was outdated. I thought something more open would help organize thoughts a little better.
  229. # [02:01] <JonathanNeal> I see, that's where you changed it to "sorted".
  230. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> Yeah, all I've changed is <th sort> ==> <th sorted>, and <th>.sortNow() ==> <th>.sort().
  231. # [02:02] <JonathanNeal> Is that you fixing it?
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  233. # [02:03] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  234. # [02:04] <JonathanNeal> I like this name, "comparator". It's better than "compareFunction", the naming I see used in mdn docs for Array.prototype.sort.
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  236. # [02:05] <TabAtkins> Interesting that the MDN docs don't use it. It's the standard term.
  237. # [02:05] <JonathanNeal> can comparator be set via string <th comparator="return a -b"> ?
  238. # [02:05] <JonathanNeal> whoops, i meant to add the function (a, b)
  239. # [02:05] <TabAtkins> No, it's a property, not an attribute.
  240. # [02:05] <JonathanNeal> Got it.
  241. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> You can, however, do <th onsort="this.comparator = function(a,b){return a - b;}">
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  243. # [02:06] <JonathanNeal> is there a way to see the state of the sorting? like .sorting // boolean ?
  244. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by "state of the sorting"?
  245. # [02:06] <JonathanNeal> well, what does stopSorting do?
  246. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> Removes all the sorted attributes from the <th>s in the table.
  247. # [02:07] <JonathanNeal> ah, it disables all sorting by actually removing all of the attributes?
  248. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  249. # [02:07] <JonathanNeal> What an evil function.
  250. # [02:08] <JonathanNeal> 9. define sort() is that supposed to be sorted too?
  251. # [02:08] <TabAtkins> No, that's the function. It's named sort() on purpose.
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  254. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> Hixie: How are you treating cells with a colspan? Do they belong to both columns? The first?
  255. # [02:10] <JonathanNeal> why not sortRow() ?
  256. # [02:10] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  257. # [02:11] <TabAtkins> It doens't sort a row, it sorts a column.
  258. # [02:11] <TabAtkins> And why add more than necessary?
  259. # [02:12] <JonathanNeal> just seems like cells and rows were labeled in other js
  260. # [02:12] <JonathanNeal> cellIndex, rowSpan.
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  263. # [02:15] <JonathanNeal> rowIndex, cells, rows
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  279. # [03:40] <MikeSmith> dammit
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  281. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> is there some rule that a Location directive can't be the first directive in an .htaccess file?
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  283. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> trying to fix a problem with http://w3c-test.org/html/
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  288. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> the Location directive is the only one in the file, but the error log says <Location not allowed here
  289. # [03:45] * MikeSmith finds http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6667894/httaccess-location-not-allowed-here
  290. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> Location apparently not allowed in .htaccess at all
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  306. # [04:56] <JonathanNeal> hola
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  336. # [05:32] <JonathanNeal> Does the <th>. comparator compare the tds or their content?
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  355. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: what's a comparator?
  356. # [05:41] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/temp http://oksoclap.com/whatwg-sortable-tables
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  361. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: something Hixie posted to the list?
  362. # [05:45] <JonathanNeal> I was just following the conversation from earlier today. I don't know where else it has been posted.
  363. # [05:45] <JonathanNeal> Something TabAtkins, erlehmann, and Hixie were enjoying.
  364. # [05:46] <erlehmann> i am still sleepy and not sleeping
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  366. # [05:51] <JonathanNeal> Is that why you denied my IIFE reduction (function (global) { /* never an instance of global */ })(this); ?
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  374. # [06:07] <erlehmann> jonathanneal, i probably did overlook it
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  381. # [07:00] <Hixie> TabAtkins: both
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  385. # [07:06] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: good question... probably the elements, i guess

The end :)