/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 07 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  30. # [02:58] <Hixie> man, why is utf-8 so hard for libraries to get right
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  137. # [11:13] <annevk> I thinks this API for events is the way to go: https://gist.github.com/4463430
  138. # [11:14] <annevk> with the second and third argument reversed
  139. # [11:14] <annevk> and for now just make everything bubble and ignore capture altogether
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  142. # [11:24] <jgraham> Is matchesSelector suppoed to be a built-in function on window, or something that a user could do in js?
  143. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> Builtin on Element, no?
  144. # [11:25] <jgraham> No, the one in the proposal is different
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  147. # [11:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I put the <main> tests in a separate file and checked with jgraham and annevk first
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  149. # [11:44] <annevk> jgraham: you would do it in JS
  150. # [11:44] <annevk> jgraham: as in the proposal
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  152. # [11:45] <jgraham> annevk: Well it was marked as "syntactic sugar" so I thought you were proposing a built-in equavalent to the following JS
  153. # [11:46] <jgraham> Since sugar is usually something that you don't have to implement yourself
  154. # [11:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think what you did was fine fwiw
  155. # [11:47] <annevk> jgraham: ah yeah
  156. # [11:48] <annevk> jgraham: I think for Element.on we could overload and let the third argument be a string which would be interpreted as that sugar
  157. # [11:48] <odinho> Getting back a stop() function is a bit strange though?
  158. # [11:48] <annevk> odinho: why?
  159. # [11:48] <odinho> No, I just haven't seen it. s/strange/unfamiliar/
  160. # [11:48] <annevk> I quite like it, seems much more lightweight than returning an object with a method
  161. # [11:48] <odinho> More used to getting back object I can do moar stuff on.
  162. # [11:49] <darobin> well, it can also be an object :)
  163. # [11:49] <odinho> And if we'd even want to do something else with the registered listener than stopping it?
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  165. # [11:50] <odinho> Though I guess the jqueryists would actually expect on to return eventTarget itself, so you could chain.
  166. # [11:51] <Ms2ger> Boo
  167. # [11:52] <odinho> It'd be nice not having to write addEventListener all the time.
  168. # [11:52] <annevk> I want to return a function/object as the other pattern of unregistering sucks
  169. # [11:52] <odinho> annevk: True dat.
  170. # [11:53] <odinho> (I'm very for the .on it no matter how it's done)
  171. # [11:53] <annevk> Yeah, I don't want to make addEventListener more complicated
  172. # [11:54] <annevk> The only other thing I thought of was making the methods exclusive but I think that's too much inconvenience
  173. # [11:55] <darobin> note that you could return an object and allow for chaining
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  175. # [11:55] <darobin> all it takes would be for the returned object to also support .on() and know what event target to send it to (which it ought to)
  176. # [11:55] <darobin> of course, I'm not saying that's necessarily a good idea :)
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  179. # [11:58] <annevk> I thought it was just element.matches() these days btw?
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  183. # [11:58] <annevk> darobin: sounds like a bit too much magic
  184. # [12:00] <darobin> annevk: what bothers me more than the magic is that it actually only chains .on()
  185. # [12:01] <darobin> whereas in chaining I'd expect to be able to call whatever is callable on the original event target
  186. # [12:01] <darobin> $el.on(...).css(...).appendTo(...) etc.
  187. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> Eww
  188. # [12:05] <annevk> My new hobby: finding useful return values that break chaining
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  190. # [12:05] <jgraham> Isn't that the normal case?
  191. # [12:06] <jgraham> I mean typically you expect a function (or method) to return a value
  192. # [12:06] <jgraham> Returning the object that you first thought of is a rather strange idea
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  194. # [12:12] <annevk> It was a joke :)
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  196. # [12:16] <annevk> Minutes are so bad... http://www.w3.org/2012/05/02-webapps-minutes.html#item04 "[ Bike shedding about name ]"
  197. # [12:16] <annevk> Pretty sure we actually made a decision there
  198. # [12:19] <hsivonen> btw, has anyone tested if IE10 has an “IE9 XML” mode in addition to an “IE10 XML” mode?
  199. # [12:20] <hsivonen> I guess that’s something I need to test
  200. # [12:20] <hsivonen> Also: Modes in mobile edition of IE9 and IE10
  201. # [12:22] <hsivonen> hmm. Google Maps for desktop renders in the IE10 Standard mode, so they don’t even have the excuse of that mode not existing on mobile
  202. # [12:23] <annevk> http://programmingisterrible.com/post/39812339693/are-16-bits-providing-at-most-65-536-distinct beautiful
  203. # [12:24] <hsivonen> hah
  204. # [12:24] <darobin> beautiful
  205. # [12:25] * darobin \u2665 chaining
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  208. # [12:32] <annevk> also from that blog I learned about https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-engineering/xhp-a-new-way-to-write-php/294003943919
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  214. # [12:49] * remysharp_ is now known as remysharp
  215. # [12:49] <darobin> "The correct solution is to pass this input through htmlspecialchars() before displaying it to the user."
  216. # [12:49] <darobin> dude, the correct solution is to not use PHP in the first place
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  221. # [13:01] <annevk> http://programmingisterrible.com/post/39590933826/the-ghost-of-http
  222. # [13:02] <annevk> this blog is getting better and better
  223. # [13:02] <annevk> darobin: doesn't matter, every language has the same problem whenever you string concat HTML
  224. # [13:02] * Joins: benbarnett (~Adium@109.144.200.36)
  225. # [13:02] <darobin> annevk: it does matter
  226. # [13:03] <darobin> if you build a templating language specifically for the web and you don't make it so that it escapes HTML by default, don't be surprised that there are so many exploits later
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  229. # [13:04] <annevk> fair enough I suppose, but I don't really see PHP as a templating language, it's just another language
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  231. # [13:13] <hsivonen> annevk: points to the blogger for including Atom on the list of failures. We should have publishes an RSS5 instead.
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  249. # [13:48] <odinho> Hmm. HTML6 is XML. Sneaky. Not even backwards compat afics. http://html6spec.com/
  250. # [13:50] <odinho> ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Jan/0016.html )
  251. # [13:53] <hsivonen> sigh. constant vigilance needed. I thought we agreed not to do stuff like http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7621&to=7622 back in 2006 after burying the “significant inline content” concept
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  256. # [13:54] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
  257. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Hixie seems to be saying he intended it that way all along, for the title element at least
  258. # [13:57] <hsivonen> I wonder if he pinged glazou first
  259. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> I don't think he pinged anybody
  260. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> I think he made that change as a result of a recent IRC discussion
  261. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> I'll try to find a pointer to the logs
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  267. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=20+Dec+2012&e=21+Dec+2012#c756715 and http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=21+Dec+2012&e=22+Dec+2012#c757484
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  271. # [14:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  272. # [14:28] <hsivonen> I think I will end up sending email to the list :-(
  273. # [14:29] <hsivonen> do we have a wiki page that explains why conneg is bad and you should not try to solve things by saying “I know! Let’s use conneg!”S
  274. # [14:29] <hsivonen> s/S/?/
  275. # [14:31] <annevk> slightlyoff: not sure if you're on IRC, but the Event class I pointed to is the same as the DOM has plus WebKit proprietary extensions
  276. # [14:31] <annevk> slightlyoff: not actually changed for Dart
  277. # [14:32] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  278. # [14:32] <annevk> hsivonen: someone from Google is pushing it again: http://www.igvita.com/2012/12/18/deploying-new-image-formats-on-the-web/
  279. # [14:33] <annevk> hsivonen: 386'ing conneg is not for me
  280. # [14:33] <hsivonen> boo. Dart’s “cleaned up” DOM still has live child collections
  281. # [14:33] <hsivonen> firstChild/nextSibling FTW
  282. # [14:34] <annevk> Part of it is "cleaned up", lots of it seems a straight copy of the existing classes/interfaces
  283. # [14:35] <annevk> oh, Eric Lawrence points out some problems with conneg in the comments
  284. # [14:38] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@27.134.139.88.rev.sfr.net)
  285. # [14:38] <jgraham> Dart hasn't died yet? How sad
  286. # [14:39] <annevk> It's not like Google's bleeding money over it
  287. # [14:39] <jgraham> Well no, but it is keeping bright people from working on better things
  288. # [14:44] <hsivonen> I ended up writing a short one-off comment about Accept: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=240493#c89
  289. # [14:45] <annevk> does webarch say anything about conneg?
  290. # [14:45] <annevk> it does
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  316. # [15:45] <annevk> https://gist.github.com/4475457
  317. # [15:46] <annevk> That includes all the syntax sugar libraries have...
  318. # [15:46] <annevk> heycam|away: are you there? I wonder if the above overloading thingie actually works... Maybe Ms2ger knows?
  319. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> dictionary<EventCallback>?
  320. # [15:47] <annevk> {click: callback1, resize: callback2}
  321. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  322. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> A dictionary with an open-ended set of keys?
  323. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> Because that doesn't exist
  324. # [15:49] <annevk> Yes, with string keys and values of type between < and >
  325. # [15:49] <annevk> Ms2ger: well there's a bug for that
  326. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> Oh?
  327. # [15:49] <darobin> Ms2ger: that doesn't exist but there's a bug for it
  328. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> Has someone specced iteration order?
  329. # [15:50] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@24-212-206-174.cable.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  330. # [15:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2013-January/027842.html
  331. # [15:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: anything else? :)
  332. # [15:51] <Ms2ger> But most likely, those wouldn't be distinguishable, no
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  334. # [15:57] <zewt> annevk: don't know what the point of the weird dictionary thing is; not sure what "EventFilter" is but if it's the "filter based on keys for keypress" or whatever, like I said before that seems like a complex optimization for something having no need of optimization
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  336. # [15:58] <annevk> zewt: it's so you can implement your own delegation
  337. # [15:58] <annevk> zewt: e.g. based on a selector, or something else
  338. # [15:59] <zewt> you can already do it manually now within the function if you want to do it yourself
  339. # [16:00] <annevk> sure but that's less reusable
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  341. # [16:00] <zewt> if(!event.target.matchesSelector("whatever")) return;
  342. # [16:03] <zewt> also, an options dictionary seems natural, instead of an infrequently-used optional parameter
  343. # [16:03] * Joins: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.56)
  344. # [16:04] <hsivonen> OK. I started the wiki page: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Why_not_conneg
  345. # [16:04] <annevk> hsivonen: heh
  346. # [16:04] <annevk> zewt: I believe it's quite frequently used actually
  347. # [16:04] <zewt> not to channel a hixie, but are there use cases for making up your own filters other than selectors? in my experience selectors are a pretty good fit
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  349. # [16:07] <zewt> elem.addEventListener("click", this.onClick, { filter: ".button" }); seems nice and clean and clear to me
  350. # [16:07] <darobin> to back up zewt's point, is there a library that filters on something other than selectors?
  351. # [16:08] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@217.243.168.51)
  352. # [16:09] <zewt> can always start with string selectors, and make it a (DOMString or EventFilter) later if wanted
  353. # [16:09] <annevk> well selectors don't make sense for non-RootNode nodes
  354. # [16:09] <zewt> what's a RootNode?
  355. # [16:09] <annevk> see DOM
  356. # [16:09] <zewt> if that means "document" then that's wrong
  357. # [16:10] <annevk> why? if you register on a document you want to filter on its elemetn descendants, same for documentfragment
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  359. # [16:10] <zewt> if you register on an element you want to filter on its descendants too, why wouldn't that make sense? that's how it's used
  360. # [16:11] <darobin> yeah, that's how it's used
  361. # [16:11] <annevk> sure, RootNode includes Element
  362. # [16:11] <annevk> again, see DOM
  363. # [16:11] <zewt> then that's not what I said :P and that's a pretty broken name
  364. # [16:12] <zewt> gotta head to work, later
  365. # [16:12] <annevk> well it means Document
  366. # [16:12] <annevk> just as much as it means Element
  367. # [16:12] <annevk> and DocumentFragment
  368. # [16:12] <annevk> those can all be roots
  369. # [16:12] <zewt> it doesn't mean the root node of a document, which is what it sounds like--it doesn't make sense for every node in a tree to be called a "root node", heh
  370. # [16:12] <darobin> yeah it's not the best name ever
  371. # [16:13] <annevk> it can be renamed if you have a suggestion
  372. # [16:13] <darobin> TreeNode?
  373. # [16:13] <annevk> it doesn't really matter
  374. # [16:13] <zewt> but anyway selectors inside a document are the overwhelming majority of use cases, makes sense to me to optimize for that
  375. # [16:13] <annevk> Comment is a TreeNode too
  376. # [16:13] <darobin> not really, no, but it's very confusing
  377. # [16:14] <annevk> zewt: the proposal optimizes for that
  378. # [16:14] <zewt> but afk work for real
  379. # [16:14] <darobin> comments have children?
  380. # [16:14] <annevk> a comment is part of a Tree
  381. # [16:15] <darobin> sure, everything is :)
  382. # [16:15] <darobin> BranchNode
  383. # [16:15] <darobin> ?
  384. # [16:15] <annevk> right, that's why it's super confusing
  385. # [16:15] <darobin> NonLeafNode?
  386. # [16:15] <darobin> TrunkNode
  387. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> BlahNode
  388. # [16:15] <darobin> ContainerNode
  389. # [16:15] <annevk> ah
  390. # [16:15] <darobin> yeah, what Ms2ger said
  391. # [16:15] <darobin> anything that doesn't imply it's a root when it's not :)
  392. # [16:15] <annevk> Wikipedia suggests InternalNode and ExternalNode
  393. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> darobin, heya
  394. # [16:16] <Ms2ger> Feel like reviewing some tests? :)
  395. # [16:16] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_(data_structure)#Terminology
  396. # [16:16] <darobin> Ms2ger: I will
  397. # [16:16] <annevk> oh but that doesn't work
  398. # [16:16] <darobin> annevk: don't use wikipedia for that, you'll get some computer science terminology out of it
  399. # [16:17] <annevk> yeah and it'd be wrong anyway
  400. # [16:17] <annevk> it should indicate it has the potential to have child nodes
  401. # [16:17] <darobin> MotherNode
  402. # [16:18] <annevk> uhuh
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  404. # [16:18] <darobin> ParentNode
  405. # [16:18] <annevk> I guess that could work
  406. # [16:18] <annevk> the other one is named ChildNode at the moment
  407. # [16:18] <annevk> and element is in both
  408. # [16:18] * darobin likes MotherNode better, but hey :)
  409. # [16:18] <darobin> "I found it and it's the MotherNode!"
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  413. # [16:19] <annevk> looks like your first contribution to the DOM spec
  414. # [16:20] <annevk> at least from this generation
  415. # [16:22] <annevk> committed

The end :)