/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-14 / end

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  25. # [00:33] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  33. # [00:52] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: FYI, you have the power to create wiki users. (You are a permanent member of the autoconfirmed users group.)
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  37. # [01:04] <heycam> w3.org down?
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  70. # [03:31] <paul_irish> hober: can you help me out with a whatwg wiki account? username "Paul Irish"
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  75. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: will try to see if I have perms
  76. # [03:51] <paul_irish> you do
  77. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> heycam|away: entire MIT network is dropping off due to a routing problem
  78. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: ok gimme a minute
  79. # [03:52] <paul_irish> no rush! :)
  80. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: ok, you want the account created?
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  93. # [05:15] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: yeah
  94. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: pusshed on the button on it a while back
  95. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> should be mail in your inbox
  96. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> sent to your gmail account
  97. # [05:25] <paul_irish> thx dude
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  168. # [10:02] <annevk> If an interface has a constructor, does a derived interface necessarily need a constructor?
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  204. # [11:13] <annevk> I had not realized UI Events was just some patching on top of DOM3 Events :/
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  216. # [11:28] <annevk> smaug____: we could also do new EventTarget(eventParent)
  217. # [11:28] <annevk> smaug____: I think
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  219. # [11:29] <annevk> smaug____: we could even consider always exposing the eventParent as a readonly attribute on EventTarget, but I'm not sure that's worth it
  220. # [11:29] <hsivonen> from the department of entirely unsurprising news: the IE9 mode in IE10 does not actually match IE9. For example, IE9 mode in IE10 accepts unprefixed 2D transforms but real IE9 does not (requires -ms-).
  221. # [11:30] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  222. # [11:31] <annevk> "House of cards"
  223. # [11:31] <smaug____> I think we need some kind of parent
  224. # [11:31] <smaug____> but having it in EventTarget might be a bit odd
  225. # [11:32] <smaug____> though...
  226. # [11:32] <annevk> smaug____: Why do we need to expose it explicitly?
  227. # [11:32] <smaug____> because it makes sense ?
  228. # [11:32] <smaug____> :)
  229. # [11:33] <annevk> smaug____: The best kind of argument
  230. # [11:33] <smaug____> I wonder if IDB might need eventParent
  231. # [11:33] <smaug____> need to ask sicking about that
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  233. # [11:34] <annevk> Well I'm going to rewrite concept-event-dispatch to use an "event parent" concept at least to calculate the object chain before dispatching
  234. # [11:34] <annevk> So IDB and others can use that
  235. # [11:35] <annevk> But it does not need to be exposed. E.g. that for event purposes Window is the parent of Document is not exposed in such a way either at the moment
  236. # [11:36] <smaug____> it is
  237. # [11:36] <smaug____> .defaultView
  238. # [11:37] <annevk> That's not really convincing and was not introduced for that purpose at all...
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  245. # [12:14] <SimonSapin> Hi annevk_. A few questions about http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#utf-8-decoder …
  246. # [12:15] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  247. # [12:15] <annevk> SimonSapin: what about it?
  248. # [12:15] <SimonSapin> the algorithm "returns" one code point/EOF/error and is called repeatedly, right?
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  251. # [12:16] <SimonSapin> when it says "emit" something, the steps stop there for this iteration
  252. # [12:17] <SimonSapin> "Let byte be the value at byte pointer." is that a copy, or does byte (potentially) change when byte pointer does?
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  259. # [12:25] <SimonSapin> annevk: and I think that "Increase the byte pointer by one." is not at the right place, but I’m not sure what would fix it
  260. # [12:26] <SimonSapin> and it might be possible to avoid "Decrease the byte pointer by one." by moving the range checking earlier
  261. # [12:27] <annevk> SimonSapin: /byte/ is either a copy or a pointer, but if byte pointer changes byte does not
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  263. # [12:29] <annevk> SimonSapin: I believe the algorithm is correct though
  264. # [12:29] <annevk> SimonSapin: but there's many ways to implement a utf-8 decoder
  265. # [12:30] <SimonSapin> annevk: it’s probably correct, but I don’t find it very clear
  266. # [12:30] <SimonSapin> it’s not obvious that you should not continue the steps after "emit"
  267. # [12:31] <annevk> SimonSapin: did you read section 4?
  268. # [12:32] <annevk> but yeah, I'm not entirely satisfied with how that works at the moment
  269. # [12:32] <SimonSapin> section 4 might be what I was missing
  270. # [12:32] <annevk> I did it mainly this way to reduce the overhead as it would be the same everywhere, but maybe self-contained algorithms would be better
  271. # [12:33] <SimonSapin> maybe just refer to section 4 every time
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  273. # [12:34] <SimonSapin> annevk: anyway I started https://github.com/SimonSapin/rust-webencodings
  274. # [12:34] <SimonSapin> and learning rust along the way
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  276. # [12:34] <annevk> oh cool
  277. # [12:34] <annevk> you should tell the Mozilla guys
  278. # [12:34] <annevk> they might wanna use it ;)
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  280. # [12:35] <SimonSapin> I will, once it does a bit more
  281. # [12:38] <annevk> SimonSapin: fwiw, seems they already link to section 4
  282. # [12:38] <annevk> "The utf-8 decoder (decoder for utf-8) is:" the second "decoder" is a link back to what decoder actually means
  283. # [12:39] <SimonSapin> oh, missed that
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  286. # [12:48] <SimonSapin> annevk: do you have encoding tests?
  287. # [12:49] <annevk> SimonSapin: I have http://dump.testsuite.org/encoding/single-byte-test.html
  288. # [12:49] <annevk> I've been meaning to convert that one to testharness.js to make Ms2ger happy
  289. # [12:49] <annevk> I'd need some information on whether using PHP is fine...
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  291. # [12:50] <darobin> annevk: using PHP is fine
  292. # [12:50] <darobin> it just needs to get reviewed before being imported to the test server
  293. # [12:50] <darobin> but since the repo isn't synced yet, that's not an immediate problem
  294. # [12:50] <annevk> darobin: so the other problem with that test seems to be that it triggers the slow script dialog in Gecko
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  296. # [12:51] <annevk> darobin: I could probably make it 30 or so static files instead generated with Python
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  298. # [12:51] <darobin> annevk: doesn't trigger that here, though it did trigger my mental "There's something wrong here" dialog :)
  299. # [12:52] <annevk> although hmmm might require some .htaccess
  300. # [12:52] <annevk> heh
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  302. # [12:52] <annevk> it fetches the same thing about 50 times or so sync
  303. # [12:52] <annevk> each time with a different header
  304. # [12:53] <darobin> hmmm, synchronous XHR, adding methods to a core prototype — full of lovely :)
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  306. # [12:56] <annevk> darobin: well all that can be rewritten, the test was mostly a quick hack to figure a few things out
  307. # [12:56] <annevk> just not sure what the desired features are of a largish test
  308. # [12:58] <darobin> annevk: I know, I was just poking fun
  309. # [12:58] <darobin> annevk: I wonder, could this be turned into a bunch of distinct tests?
  310. # [12:58] <darobin> with testharness and all
  311. # [12:58] <annevk> yeah, as I said, I could generate them from Python
  312. # [12:58] <darobin> just so that it doesn't trigger any slowness warnings
  313. # [12:58] <annevk> or some other language
  314. # [12:58] <darobin> ah, ok that's what you meant — sorry, wasn't clear on that bit
  315. # [12:58] <SimonSapin> annevk: testing single bytes encoding based on their index is easy enough. I’m more interested in corner cases like how many replacement characters do you get for a given invalid UTF-8 sequence
  316. # [12:59] <annevk> SimonSapin: http://code.google.com/p/stringencoding/ might have tests
  317. # [12:59] <darobin> annevk: I don't have a strong opinion, but at the very least if it's going to be big and slow it's better if there's some sort of progress indication
  318. # [12:59] <darobin> even if it's just a <pre> listing the parts being tested
  319. # [13:00] <annevk> SimonSapin: agreed that those are more desirable
  320. # [13:00] <darobin> I reckon that making it xhr-async will cause it to spin the event loop often enough to avoid the slow script dialog
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  360. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: did you before have a thing somewhere like http://www.lookout.net/test/url/url-liveview.html ?
  361. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> Chris says in his blog post he thought you did but he can't remember the address
  362. # [15:04] <annevk> http://dump.testsuite.org/url/inspect.html
  363. # [15:04] <annevk> I commented on his G+ post
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  365. # [15:05] <annevk> How did you get the correct link to his tool? :)
  366. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  367. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: through URL surgery
  368. # [15:06] <annevk> heh
  369. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> fitting :)
  370. # [15:06] <hsivonen> http://www.delorie.com:81/some/url.txt is down. Does anyone know a substitute?
  371. # [15:07] <annevk> hsivonen: something like http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/test-tools/echo maybe?
  372. # [15:08] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. not quite as pure but works for my purposes today
  373. # [15:08] <annevk> yeah, the raw dump stuff was nice
  374. # [15:09] * Retrieving #whatwg modes...
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  377. # [15:10] <hsivonen> can “Browser Modes” 7 through 9 (not “Document Modes”) in IE10 be activated by means other than the dev tools?
  378. # [15:11] <hsivonen> that is, can an intranet admin activate them for particular sites?
  379. # [15:12] <hsivonen> oh awesome. IE10 doesn’t have application/xml in Accept
  380. # [15:12] <hsivonen> we should drop that
  381. # [15:13] <hsivonen> oh. IE9 doesn’t either
  382. # [15:13] <hsivonen> I thought it did
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  385. # [15:21] <annevk> Heh https://twitter.com/aaronsw/status/140810339771097088 hadn't seen that before
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  388. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> heh
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  391. # [15:33] <jesusruiz> one question, WHATWG specification differs from the W3C specification?.
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  393. # [15:34] <jesusruiz> I speak from the time of the final specification, the W3C that seem set for 2014.
  394. # [15:35] <jesusruiz> But I do not see the WHATWG definite date.
  395. # [15:36] <hsivonen> jesusruiz: It’s a living spec. There’s no end date.
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  397. # [15:38] <jesusruiz> hsivonen thanks for the reply ;)
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  399. # [15:39] <jesusruiz> What I have not entirely clear is, after a bit of separation that has had the WHATG and W3C specification that must be followed.
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  401. # [15:40] <jesusruiz> I like the freedom of WHATG.
  402. # [15:40] <jesusruiz> WHATWG
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  404. # [15:40] <jesusruiz> but if the specs are going to be something different, and not as a developer which follow.
  405. # [15:41] <hsivonen> jesusruiz: follow the WHATWG spec
  406. # [15:42] <hsivonen> jesusruiz: the W3C spec will be out of date by construction, since the W3C publishes snapshots
  407. # [15:43] <jesusruiz> hsivonen Yes, I feel more identified with this group. So I think you're right.
  408. # [15:43] <jesusruiz> It is an important reason you mention.
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  421. # [16:03] <Ms2ger> annevk, I'm so glad you want to make me happy :)
  422. # [16:04] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, sounds like work...
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  438. # [16:42] <Stevef> hsivonen: HTML 5.1 is only a little behind and in front in some ways
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  445. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2013-January/023326.html
  446. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> (Sent from)
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  448. # [17:09] <Ms2ger> Oh really
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  491. # [18:26] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  497. # [18:42] <hober> paul_irish: sorry, just seeing your msg now. thankfully MikeSmith got to you first. :)
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  509. # [18:52] <paul_irish> hober: yup! np thx
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  544. # [19:48] <stevefaulkner> MikeSmith: can you give me the URL for the numarkup dev validator?
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  559. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> "To me, it looks longer."
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  567. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> Hear, hear: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20665
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  582. # [20:28] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: I'm just saying, if somebody comes to you and asks, you can help them. ;)
  583. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, I wish I didn't know that :)
  584. # [20:29] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: If it makes you feel any better, there are a bunch of people in this channel who have that power.
  585. # [20:30] <GPHemsley> http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&group=autoconfirmed
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  587. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> Good to know
  588. # [20:31] <GPHemsley> (And I'm happy to add more people to that list, if anyone wants to make suggestions.)
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  591. # [20:33] <jesusruiz> GPHemsley Do you only keep the wiki?
  592. # [20:34] <GPHemsley> jesusruiz: I think I'm chief in charge, but I believe there are others. Why?
  593. # [20:34] <jesusruiz> documentation of the specification, not keep you?
  594. # [20:34] <GPHemsley> jesusruiz: Specifications are generally not maintained via the wiki.
  595. # [20:34] <jesusruiz> I know that is not normal, but you are missing a possible translation of the documentation.
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  597. # [20:35] <jesusruiz> a platform that could help translate into some languages.
  598. # [20:35] <jesusruiz> but well, neither does the W3C. So, time to time :)
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  600. # [20:36] <jesusruiz> GPHemsley thanks for the info ;)
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  603. # [20:36] * Ms2ger has never seen the point of translating specifications
  604. # [20:37] <GPHemsley> jesusruiz: Well, I'm not in charge of that. You'll have to talk to Hixie or others with more influence on that.
  605. # [20:38] <jesusruiz> Well, for those who know English no problem. In fact, English is very common to know, but some people do not know the language.
  606. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> Do those people implement browsers?
  607. # [20:38] <jesusruiz> for example php is translating the documentation. It was a simple idea.
  608. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Specification != documentation
  609. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Translating documentation makes a lot of sense, but we're not in the documentation business
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  611. # [20:42] <jesusruiz> Ms2ger Yeah, right. Anyway, I guess the documentation can be translated personally by others. Always keeping course and asking permission rights.
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  613. # [20:44] <jesusruiz> I ask on the mailing list :) Thanks to all
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  629. # Session Close: Mon Jan 14 21:02:28 2013
  630. #
  631. # Session Start: Mon Jan 14 21:02:28 2013
  632. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  634. # [21:03] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  635. # [21:03] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  636. # [21:03] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  674. # [22:09] <jgraham> https://www.frederik-braun.com/thesis/ (via miketaylr)
  675. # [22:10] <jgraham> Also, it looks like crap in pdf.js, if someone wants to report that
  676. # [22:12] <jgraham> Also, 73 pages? That's crazy-short (doesn't mean that it's not good, of course)
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  740. # [23:40] <eighty4> gsnedders: You should know this :) What version/revision of html5 was target deprecated? http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/a.html#a.attrs.target "The target attribute on the a element was deprecated in a previous version of HTML, but is no longer deprecated"
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  742. # [23:47] <tantek> 4
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  744. # [23:56] <eighty4> gsnedders: right… some kind of brain**** nevermind.
  745. # Session Close: Tue Jan 15 00:00:00 2013

The end :)