/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-21 / end

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  77. # [07:40] <hsivonen> “The polyglot markup community” http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Jan/0052.html
  78. # [07:41] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  79. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: he forgot to add the word "thriving" there
  80. # [07:47] <hsivonen> I’m trying to figure out how to ask for the membership list of said community without Sam telling me I’m using emotive language or something.
  81. # [07:48] <hsivonen> I genuinely curious if the community is larger than Sam and Leif
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  83. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> I wonder whether Leif actually even authors anything using polyglot markup
  84. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> heycam|away: in http://mcc.id.au/BrowserMiniconf/LCA2013/Schedule "Below is the schedule for the Browser Miniconf", the URL for the Browser Miniconf link goes to the 2012 info page
  85. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> instead of to the 2013 one
  86. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> shanestephens: ↑
  87. # [08:02] <hsivonen> I wonder if the Opera Ice video is an elaborate troll: the UI depicted has Windows 8 -like gestures and animations and there already was an ICE Browser from Norway.
  88. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> does make you wonder who leaked it and why
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  90. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> and anyway the writeups about make speculations that aren't substantiated by anything that's actually in the video
  91. # [08:08] <hsivonen> yeah
  92. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> speaking of elaborate trolls I wonder sometimes if html5test is in the category
  93. # [08:10] <hsivonen> the remarks at the end of the video sound like they could be offensive to people who’ve worked on Opera’s products for years. I find it surprising that the presenter would say that to an audience of Opera employees.
  94. # [08:13] <hsivonen> I always get annoyed when journalists score browsers mainly by publishing html5test.com scores
  95. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> there's not shortage recently of some Opera people saying things that are offensive to people who've worked on Opera's products for years
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  97. # [08:14] <hsivonen> s/journalists score/journalists rate/
  98. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I was just looking at the dependency tree for the htmltest on mozilla bugzilla
  99. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> and I noticed the bug for keygen
  100. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> god knows why the htmltest dude thinks keygen merits having a feature-test there
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  106. # [08:44] <Stevef> MikeSmith: congrats on finally getting the main layout tests working on webkit :-)
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  109. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> Stevef: yeah the WebKit ax test-runner infrastructure is .. idiosyncratic
  110. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> but it gets the job done
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  112. # [08:48] <Stevef> right
  113. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> now that I've learned it I suppose I should put it to good use and write a some more tests
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  115. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> btw I didn't include a test to check if header and footer get de-landmarked if they're descendants of main
  116. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> because, first off, the patch doesn't yet actually implement that behavior
  117. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> hmm or perhaps it does
  118. # [08:52] <Stevef> OK , thats gets handled by article/secton currently, need to look into it and spec it out
  119. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> ok so a follow-up bug could be opened for that later
  120. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> I guess I should quit speculating and just write the test now to see
  121. # [08:54] <Stevef> yes, i have some related feedback to process
  122. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> but not make the test part of the initial patch
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  126. # [09:01] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, not just their a11y tests :)
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  129. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah but I suspect that a11y test stuff for other engines maybe have some similar esoteric-ness
  130. # [09:07] * Ms2ger grumbles at ReSpec
  131. # [09:08] * hsivonen keeps reading a11y as ally
  132. # [09:08] <hsivonen> testing their allies
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  135. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> ax is easier to type
  136. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> and read
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  139. # [09:12] <hsivonen> would you rather accessibility be an ax or an ally?
  140. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> I prefer the ax
  141. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> btw am I missing something or is there really no way in bugs.webkit.org to do component watching?
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  145. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> I know the bugzilla version there doesn't have the component-watching feature but it also doesn't have the QA contact field so no use of the convention of putting a unique address there to follow
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  148. # [09:26] <Stevef> MikeSmith: the effect of section/article on header/footer and potential effect of main on same needs to be added to WAI-ARIA section of HTML in the mapping tables will file a bug etc
  149. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> Stevef: ok
  150. # [09:29] <Stevef> there is quite a bit of work on the WAI-ARIA section needed in 5.1 to better reflect implementations
  151. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Hixie, dglazkov: have you pinged the SVG and MathML groups about element names with a hyphen in them being reserved from now on?
  152. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> Stevef: I'm a bit confused about why the job of speccing some of this behavior falls to HTML instead of to PFWG to define in the ARIA specs
  153. # [09:32] <Stevef> MikeSmith: because the host language defines the mappings for the host language features
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  155. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> Stevef: I realize they can't define anything about HTML elements, but they can for the related abstractions
  156. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> this is more than just mappings
  157. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> and it should be handled the same way across all host languages
  158. # [09:34] <Stevef> well that maybe something that can be refined in aria 1.1
  159. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> Stevef: yeah that seems to be the proposed solution for any suggestions/comments that people make about aria
  160. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> "yeah we gonna fix that in the next version"
  161. # [09:36] <hsivonen> “Google Chrome does not use the Windows Media Player plugin, it uses the ActiveX control instead.” Really?
  162. # [09:36] <hsivonen> is there even WMP-dependent Web content that anyone cares about anymore?
  163. # [09:38] <Stevef> I don't have much influence or input on the wai-aria spec and only have so many hands
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  168. # [10:01] * hsivonen wonders if there are polyglot elephants, too
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  180. # [10:21] <Stevef> MikeSmith: and in the case of header/footer and banner/contentinfo we have an imperfetc match between the semantics and authoring requirements/advice, in which case the differences i think need to be defined in HTML
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  186. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> Stevef: ok
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  196. # [11:11] <a_not_registed_n> hi@all
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  198. # [11:16] <a_not_registed_n> i´m trying to get an animation to work. (with <canvas>) is it possible to remove a single Item? for example the last one?
  199. # [11:16] <a_not_registed_n> asking because "context.clearRect" delete all to the ground with background and other layers
  200. # [11:17] <Ms2ger> Canvas is a bitmap, so, no
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  202. # [11:25] <a_not_registed_n> so i had to draw in every frame everything again?
  203. # [11:26] <tomasf> if you want "layers", maybe you should use something other than a canvas
  204. # [11:29] <a_not_registed_n> layers would be nice. can you suggest something?
  205. # [11:29] <tomasf> what are you trying to accomplish?
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  208. # [11:32] <a_not_registed_n> an application using Phonegap. so i can only use HTML5/CSS/JS
  209. # [11:33] <a_not_registed_n> and had to run on webkit
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  211. # [11:40] <a_not_registed_n> can you store different transparent <canvas> on each other? selct by id and draw in wihout "damage" the other layers...
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  213. # [11:48] <hsivonen> whoa. annevk is not on IRC.
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  215. # [12:06] <darobin> lol, hsivonen :) “[t]he polyglot markup community” consists of you and Sam?
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  228. # [13:15] <annevk> HTMLSelectElement.remove()
  229. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> Fun, isn't it?
  230. # [13:17] <hsivonen> annevk: you may be interested in the Character Encoding menu on Firefox for Android
  231. # [13:17] <hsivonen> annevk: it has fewer options than the desktop menu
  232. # [13:18] <hsivonen> annevk: and the list is based on looking at what kind of list the stock browser offers
  233. # [13:18] <Ms2ger> And no idea about window.event, but that feels uglier
  234. # [13:18] <hsivonen> minus removing GBK for some problem or another
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  236. # [13:19] <hsivonen> (I wish we were more scientific about these menus)
  237. # [13:19] <hsivonen> (more scientific than treating the Android stock browser as a role model)
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  239. # [13:21] <hsivonen> btw, I don’t see a Character Encoding menu at all in Chrome Beta for Android (en-US)
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  241. # [13:31] <annevk> hsivonen: cool
  242. # [13:31] <annevk> Ms2ger: I guess Opera has srcElement too?
  243. # [13:32] <annevk> hsivonen: problem is I don't have Android at the moment, and I believe the Android phone I have somewhere hidden away does not run Gecko :/
  244. # [13:32] <Ms2ger> That's what was claimed in the bug, I haven't tested
  245. # [13:32] <annevk> I think Opera has window.event too though.
  246. # [13:32] <annevk> Does WebKit have that?
  247. # [13:33] <Ms2ger> Dunno
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  249. # [13:37] <hsivonen> annevk: Firefox for Android now runs on ARMv6
  250. # [13:37] <hsivonen> and with less RAM
  251. # [13:37] <hsivonen> GLES is still a requirement, though
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  253. # [13:38] <hsivonen> from the “Don’t they do QA or dogfooding?” department: Eclipse CDT regressed the ability to attach to a process with gdb and shipped
  254. # [13:38] <annevk> Does that mean compatible with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Wildfire ? There's no easy to go by chart
  255. # [13:39] <annevk> Guess I can take a look tonight
  256. # [13:41] <hsivonen> annevk: it has too little RAM to be officially supported
  257. # [13:41] <hsivonen> might work anyway
  258. # [13:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: w("event" in window) -> true in Chrome
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  268. # [14:18] <annevk_> Oh my bad. I missed that hsivonen made the same argument as I did in the other email.
  269. # [14:18] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  270. # [14:18] <annevk> "When 50% of the polyglot markup community itself can’t get it right, why bother?"
  271. # [14:19] <annevk> XHTML was hard and failed with the web developer community. So lets try to be HTML and XHTML at the same time, surely that's simpler!
  272. # [14:20] <annevk> Lessons learned: less than zero.
  273. # [14:21] <odinho> Hmm. I really thought the tests-at-github thing was resolved.
  274. # [14:21] <odinho> Would be uncool having to do it all over again for webapps and webappsec.
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  276. # [14:24] <annevk> Man ReSpec sucks with fragment identifiers...
  277. # [14:24] <annevk> FOUC and you're at the top rather than what you were trying to read...
  278. # [14:27] <jgraham> odinho: Well last time it came up, ArtB basically said "no experimenting in my working group"
  279. # [14:27] <odinho> jgraham: Oh, I just sent an email saying "can we move now plzs"
  280. # [14:27] <annevk> My feeling at that point is that ReSpec appears to optimize for editors at the expense of everyone else, but actually optimizes for ReSpec at the expense of everyone.
  281. # [14:28] <jgraham> So now that the idea is proven in HTML, it should be OK to do in WebApps
  282. # [14:28] <odinho> jgraham: Anyway html tests already did it. So it's not experimental any more.
  283. # [14:28] <jgraham> But of course there might be some other reason given not to do it
  284. # [14:29] <jgraham> You going to review the pull requests btw?
  285. # [14:31] <odinho> Was intending to take a look
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  287. # [14:32] <jgraham> Cool
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  303. # [15:07] <Ms2ger> odinho, fwiw, I'd prefer having one repo for html+webapps+...
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  308. # [15:31] <Ms2ger> darobin, AFAIK, yes
  309. # [15:32] <annevk_> Ms2ger: IDB also doesn't define event handlers very clearly in terms of HTML
  310. # [15:32] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
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  315. # [15:35] <Ms2ger> annevk, it's better at defining other things?
  316. # [15:35] <darobin> Ms2ger: I can't find usage info on this, are you sure it's well deployed, even in mobile?
  317. # [15:35] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Out of interest, why one repo?
  318. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> jgraham, why two?
  319. # [15:36] <annevk> Ms2ger: that was rhetorical?
  320. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I just don't see the point of silo'ing things by working group
  321. # [15:37] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Fair enough. I don't think it's a very serious problem because in practice it isn't hard to move things from one repo to another if needed
  322. # [15:37] <Ms2ger> jgraham, especially since I seem to remember that people submitted tests for WebApps deliverables to the HTML test suite before
  323. # [15:37] <darobin> I hear a lot of people asking for an integrated TS with everything
  324. # [15:37] <jgraham> And smaller repos can be nice
  325. # [15:37] <darobin> no one gives a shit about how things are cut up into groups
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  327. # [15:38] <annevk> yeah
  328. # [15:38] <annevk> that's why people like #whatwg
  329. # [15:38] <jgraham> darobin: But, Process man, Process
  330. # [15:38] <darobin> mmmm, patents — not process
  331. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> Webapps wouldn't be too bad, but figuring out where tests for Performance or Touch Events go...
  332. # [15:38] <darobin> you wouldn't have RF if there weren't groups
  333. # [15:39] <darobin> (no matter how much that may suck)
  334. # [15:39] <annevk> you can have groups but shared tests...
  335. # [15:39] <jgraham> darobin: I know, but now I can't tell what you are advocating for tests
  336. # [15:39] <annevk> they're not correlated that way
  337. # [15:39] <darobin> at the same time, I got a lot of complaints at TakeOff about how participating in standards involved receiving tons of email about stuff you don't give a shit about
  338. # [15:39] <darobin> it seems people don't want to care where specs belong, but would like one list per spec, or even per feature
  339. # [15:40] <darobin> Making Communities Happy Is Hard: Film at 11
  340. # [15:40] <Ms2ger> More lists tends to lead to more email too, unfortunatel
  341. # [15:40] <Ms2ger> y
  342. # [15:40] <darobin> jgraham: I tend to lean towards Ms2ger's position — have just the one repo
  343. # [15:41] <annevk> Yeah, more lists doesn't necessarily mean more productive discussion. And you'll waste a bunch of time when reviewing to figure out where feedback has to go. I hit that problem each time I review.
  344. # [15:41] <darobin> someone even told me "I like the HTML WG better than WHAT WG because there's almost no email there nowadays"
  345. # [15:41] <darobin> I tried hard not to giggle
  346. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> darobin, I failed :)
  347. # [15:42] <annevk> We could just give everyone their own mailing list with no email.
  348. # [15:42] <darobin> yay!
  349. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> indexedDB of type IDBFactory, readonly
  350. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> This attribute provides applications a mechanism for accessing capabilities of indexed databases.
  351. # [15:42] <jgraham> public-annevk@w3.org? I like
  352. # [15:42] <darobin> Ms2ger: you failed at something in particular or just in general?
  353. # [15:43] <Ms2ger> darobin, I failed not to giggle
  354. # [15:43] <darobin> jgraham: and then annevk would unsub from that list due to the copyright commitment
  355. # [15:43] <darobin> Ms2ger: :)
  356. # [15:43] <Ms2ger> And create annevk@lists.whatwg.org instead?
  357. # [15:44] <annevk> darobin: heh, I'll keep waving that flag until it's settled
  358. # [15:44] <annevk> darobin: don't think it's a problem for email though, but I might be missing something
  359. # [15:44] <darobin> you need guns, not flags
  360. # [15:47] <jgraham> Guns that pop flags out of the end?
  361. # [15:48] <darobin> jgraham: you never tell — that's the point
  362. # [15:49] <darobin> hmmmm, just received the first valid argument against using GH to date
  363. # [15:49] <darobin> being this: http://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=github.com
  364. # [15:49] <darobin> that's annoying
  365. # [15:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: Indexed DB returns arbitrary objects? Are those described in sufficient detail?
  366. # [15:52] <annevk> Whoa, they haven't blocked my site.
  367. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> "Getting this property must return the source for the request. Returns null when there is no source set."
  368. # [15:54] <Ms2ger> darobin, http://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=bitbucket.org :)
  369. # [15:55] <hsivonen> darobin: China can DNS poison any domain any day. Any Web-based tool you choose today can be banned tomorrow.
  370. # [15:55] <darobin> Ms2ger: which just shows how unused it is :)
  371. # [15:55] <hsivonen> darobin: so it doesn't make much sense to choose tools based on what's banned in China
  372. # [15:55] <darobin> hsivonen: I know, but it's a small factor to take into account
  373. # [15:55] <darobin> I don
  374. # [15:55] <darobin> gah
  375. # [15:56] <darobin> I don't like the idea of banning chinese contributors, even if it's not our fault
  376. # [15:56] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, clearly with so many Chinese members (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Jan/0019.html), they wouldn't be able to block anything W3C hosts :)
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  378. # [15:56] <hsivonen> darobin: well, Finland blocked lists.w3.org as child porn one time. Should we stop using lists.w3.org?
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  380. # [15:56] <darobin> hsivonen: I'm not talking about not using
  381. # [15:57] <darobin> I'm pondering proxying
  382. # [15:57] <darobin> totally different notion :)
  383. # [15:57] <annevk> thanks Ms2ger
  384. # [15:57] <hsivonen> darobin: ah
  385. # [15:57] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/access-blocked/ for those with short memory
  386. # [15:57] <darobin> to be fair though, I don't think that preventing children from accessing lists.w3.org is a bad idea :)
  387. # [15:58] <darobin> it may forever scar one
  388. # [15:58] <Ms2ger> darobin, I don't think it's just children that are blocked from child porn
  389. # [15:58] <hsivonen> oops. it was www.w3.org not lists.w3.org
  390. # [15:59] <darobin> oh, child porn, I had misparsed hsivonen's initial line
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  392. # [16:08] <hsivonen> hmm. the grammar coherence of my last email to public-html is unusually bad
  393. # [16:08] <hsivonen> forgetting the start of the sentence before getting to the end of the sentence
  394. # [16:08] <hsivonen> multiple times
  395. # [16:09] <darobin> ah, the well know problem of timblificiation
  396. # [16:10] <darobin> if you start also speaking that way, you might want to consider joining a support group
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  416. # [17:03] <Stevef> darobin: spam man
  417. # [17:03] <darobin> \o/
  418. # [17:03] <darobin> Stevef: well, *if* I can succeed
  419. # [17:03] <darobin> right now I'm getting a 502 on updating the DB
  420. # [17:03] <Stevef> so do we have a 5.1 componenet now?
  421. # [17:04] <darobin> no, it's just HTML5 spec
  422. # [17:04] <darobin> I don't see much of a point in adding a new component for 5.1, we just keep working on the same bug set
  423. # [17:04] <Stevef> OK so do we use HTML5 spec component for 5.1 bugs?
  424. # [17:04] <darobin> yup
  425. # [17:04] <Stevef> cool
  426. # [17:05] <darobin> there's a CR component for things that should definitely target the CR draft
  427. # [17:05] <zewt> (there's also no such thing as "html5.1" dot dot dot)
  428. # [17:05] * Quits: annevk_ (~annevk@212.238.236.229) (Remote host closed the connection)
  429. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> There's just a HTML :)
  430. # [17:06] <Stevef> if you believe there is
  431. # [17:06] <zewt> pretty telling that hixie spends years getting everyone to understand that html is unversioned, then w3c people go "yay, hixie's gone! now we can finally increase the version number!"
  432. # [17:06] <zewt> (heh)
  433. # [17:06] <Stevef> yeah thise bastard W3C people
  434. # [17:07] <Stevef> those
  435. # [17:07] <darobin> I don't care, all I want is the right set up for "This is not the version you're looking for" jokes
  436. # [17:07] <zewt> call it a lumping together :P
  437. # [17:07] <darobin> the rest is immaterial
  438. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> Twss
  439. # [17:07] <Stevef> besides its not HTML5.1 its HTML 5.1
  440. # [17:08] <Stevef> nightly no less
  441. # [17:13] <Stevef> the one fortified with <main> ... runs and hides
  442. # [17:13] <darobin> oh yeah, forgot that we also want to have the ability to make "cast thy coloured nightlies and look upon Denmark as a friend" jokes
  443. # [17:15] <Stevef> darobin: did you see my whine on htmlwg irc about wonky 5.1 links?
  444. # [17:15] <Ms2ger> Meanwhile, the WHATWG server is powered by Shakespeare spinning in his grave
  445. # [17:15] <darobin> Stevef: nope, but I am already aware that something broke the build script
  446. # [17:15] <darobin> that would break links
  447. # [17:16] <darobin> Ms2ger: I'm all about renewables :)
  448. # [17:16] <Stevef> FYI weird stuff going on with html 5.1 follwoing a link in multipage redirects to single page - results in browser hang...
  449. # [17:16] * Joins: glob (~glob@me.glob.com.au)
  450. # [17:17] <darobin> Stevef: yeah, I don't know what broke us but it broke us bad
  451. # [17:17] <darobin> last time it was a very poorly placed closing element
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  454. # [17:20] <darobin> ~/ Bugs like violence, Break the silence, Come crashing in, Into my little mailbox /~
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  465. # [17:46] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I thought there was only XUL?
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  481. # [18:06] <annevk> hsivonen: we could consider utf-8 a special label maybe just like utf-16
  482. # [18:07] <annevk> hsivonen: guess you'd want telemetric data on how often the encoding is changed from utf-8 to something else
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  497. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> so <main> just now landed in WebKit
  498. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/140341
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  523. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> "content-type (mime type) squatting" is an apt was to characterize polyglot http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Jan/0049.html
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  551. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> wow some quality Bjoern-age to www-archive just now
  552. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Jan/0021.html
  553. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> 2000 words worth
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  558. # [20:49] <Ms2ger> Hmm, "Angstklauseln"
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  561. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> And it ends with a shot at Hixie, nicely done
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  563. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> "Angstklauseln" is a great word
  564. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> I wonder if that's actually commonly used or if he coined it
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  567. # [21:03] <jgraham> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclaimer
  568. # [21:04] <jgraham> Links to http://angstklauseln.wordpress.com/
  569. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> ah
  570. # [21:05] <MikeSmith> ok
  571. # [21:06] <MikeSmith> well we should use the equivalent in English
  572. # [21:06] <MikeSmith> it's an apt description
  573. # [21:06] * Ms2ger checks if http://angstklauseln.wordpress.com/ is run by Björn
  574. # [21:06] <MikeSmith> hah
  575. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> Apparently not
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  577. # [21:08] <MikeSmith> "Frankenmails" is not up to par though. SpuckteAntworten would be better
  578. # [21:08] <MikeSmith> (for the shot at Hixie)
  579. # [21:10] <MikeSmith> speaking of Hixie, here's Hixie and BruceL in Japanese: http://www.publickey1.jp/blog/13/hixie_html5hixie.html
  580. # [21:11] <MikeSmith> retitled "Why does Hixie always say No?"
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  658. # [23:58] <heycam> MikeSmith, thanks, fixed the link
  659. # [23:59] <heycam> hsivonen, Hixie, I don't think SVG has any plans on introducing hyphenated element names. the existing ones are solely for css-descriptors-in-element-form, and we really shouldn't have those anyway
  660. # [23:59] <heycam> hsivonen, Hixie, the existing hyphenated ones might well all be removed from SVG 2 too
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  662. # Session Close: Tue Jan 22 00:00:00 2013

The end :)