/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-22 / end

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  8. # [00:07] <heycam> TabAtkins, is @host meant to also replace @global?
  9. # [00:07] <heycam> TabAtkins, so you could write for example: @host { body > :scope > p { … } }
  10. # [00:07] <heycam> ?
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  83. # Session Close: Tue Jan 22 03:07:21 2013
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  85. # Session Start: Tue Jan 22 03:07:21 2013
  86. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  90. # [09:44] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  93. # [09:48] <annevk> Anyone found a copy of http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2187884/ somewhere? Seems like a pretty interesting moving. Guerilla-shot at Disney theme parks :-)
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  115. # [10:25] <annevk> "If metadata falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound?"
  116. # [10:26] <annevk> In related news, not sure how glazou simultaneously heralds XML as a requirement for the book industry and implies they have not actually read the XML specification with regards to encodings...
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  119. # [10:27] <annevk> Also, I was kinda hoping encodings to not be a subject worthy of debate.
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  123. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> it's (ir|mor)onic that he's trumpeting about user needs with those requirements have absolutely no relation to user needs and bring no value to users
  124. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> EPUB seems to require a whole chain of things for reasons that are completely at odds with actual user needs
  125. # [10:34] <hsivonen> thing most at odds with actualy users needs: META-INF/rights.xml
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  127. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> well I think that's where a lot of the rest of it stems from
  128. # [10:36] <othermaciej> the EPUB format seems puzzling in many ways
  129. # [10:36] <annevk> Have to hand it to glazou for trying to make the WYSIWYG thing work and raising issues every now and then, but the issues he raises do not exactly strike me as what's the real problem...
  130. # [10:38] <hsivonen> so per the latest email, does glazou work for companies that use something other than XML parsers with XML?
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  133. # [10:40] <annevk> "With respect to the industrial xml solutions available to the companies I work for, certainly not." I don't even...
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  136. # [10:41] <annevk> I don't really think that discussion is going anywhere. glazou just wanted to rant a bit.
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  142. # [10:46] <othermaciej> is he saying that UTF-8 is not guaranteed to work in industrial XML solutions, or that industrial XML solutions guarantee support for a wide range of other encodings?
  143. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> time to mine it for a w3cmeme
  144. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: the latter, I'm pretty sure
  145. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> the first would be beyond absurd
  146. # [10:48] <hsivonen> othermaciej: EPUB is less puzzling if you start with the following assumptions: 1) UI layer has to work when the book's DRM scheme is unsupported. 2) XHTML files are munged by DRM.
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  149. # [10:49] * hsivonen notes that off-the-shelf expat supports only UTF-8, UTF-16 and ISO-8859-1 (and maybe US-ASCII, can't remember)
  150. # [10:51] <hsivonen> anyway, using non-UTF-8 for a format that has supported UTF-8 from day 1 is being part of the encoding problem
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  153. # [10:55] <darobin> I think that what glazou is trying to say is that given the content in that industry, an XML parser has to support much more than UTF*
  154. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> yeah that
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  156. # [11:02] <hsivonen> Version attributes are useless. Film at 11: http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2012/08/06/EPUB3-fun-2
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  160. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> nice
  161. # [11:07] <darobin> no no, they're not useless
  162. # [11:07] <darobin> they're positively harmful
  163. # [11:10] <darobin> there's a decision tree for that: http://berjon.com/blog/2009/12/xmlbp-naive-versioning.html
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  165. # [11:16] <karlcow> Stevef: comment published on QA.
  166. # [11:16] <karlcow> thanks!
  167. # [11:16] <Stevef> np
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  185. # [12:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: why was https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13639 reopened?
  186. # [12:14] <annevk> Oh well, I'll just remove myself from the cc list
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  194. # [12:26] <annevk> wait what
  195. # [12:26] <annevk> Is http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#events-MouseEvent-buttons a new feature?
  196. # [12:26] <annevk> I thought we had given up on bitmasks?
  197. # [12:27] <annevk> Seems Firefox has it
  198. # [12:27] <darobin> annevk: how else can you make it extensible to 8-button mice?
  199. # [12:27] <Stevef> annevk: yeah some people wanted to get PF to review, so it was re-opened
  200. # [12:27] <annevk> Chrome does not
  201. # [12:28] <Stevef> darobin: have provided comment https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13639#c5
  202. # [12:28] <darobin> AFAIK it's been there a while
  203. # [12:28] <darobin> at least, it rings a bell
  204. # [12:28] <annevk> Well, .button used to be a bitmask in IE
  205. # [12:28] <annevk> In other browsers it mapped to whatever the DOM defined at the time
  206. # [12:29] <annevk> I think .buttons is a new invention that somehow slipped past review...
  207. # [12:29] <darobin> annevk: yeah, it's been in the spec since 2010 at least
  208. # [12:37] <annevk> I don't like the way that specification has been developed. Full of surprises.
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  211. # [12:52] <annevk> Is there some other holiday season? Am I listening in to the wrong bubble? There appears to be not much activity. And especially issues I've raised over the past couple of months got like zero attention. Maybe everyone moved beyond web standards to herd cattle or some such?
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  218. # [13:15] <smaug____> annevk is gone, but yesterday was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr._Day
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  226. # [13:57] <Ms2ger> Yay, polyglot in my inbox
  227. # [13:59] <darobin> the whole world is polyglot
  228. # [13:59] <darobin> it's like no one's working on anything else
  229. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: do you subscribe to www-archive?
  230. # [13:59] * darobin set the ignore flag on that one
  231. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, no, glazou cc'd me
  232. # [13:59] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: ah right
  233. # [13:59] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
  234. # [14:00] * darobin wonders who would be mad enough to sub to www-archive
  235. # [14:00] <darobin> well, apart from Bjoern
  236. # [14:00] <hsivonen> darobin: Do I need a support group for that, too?
  237. # [14:01] <darobin> hsivonen: you and 60 other people :)
  238. # [14:01] <darobin> including a substantial number of folks in this channel
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  240. # [14:06] * remysharp_ is now known as remysharp
  241. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> darobin, is Björn actually subscribed?
  242. # [14:07] <darobin> Ms2ger: no, but I would be surprised if he wasn't at some point
  243. # [14:07] <darobin> you know, before it was cool
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  258. # [14:50] <odinho> darobin: Sounds super great to me :]
  259. # [14:50] <odinho> It'll look stupid if I say that on the ml though, because I agreed with you from the beginning anyway :P
  260. # [14:51] <odinho> If we just send enough emails back and forth, it'll look like there was a discussion and stuff is decided? ;P
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  264. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: I don't know why that bug was reopened, and seems like darobin doesn't either, but maybe Stevef does
  265. # [14:54] <Stevef> i have commented on bug
  266. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  267. # [14:54] <Stevef> pointed tominutes
  268. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> hai
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  270. # [14:55] <odinho> So tobie also doesn't like the WG-clustering of tests.
  271. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> darobin: I subscribe to www-archive for the sole purpose of being able to read Bjoern's messages as soon as they hit the newstand (as it were)
  272. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> for the sense of anticipation
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  274. # [14:58] <tobie> Oh, that's where this conversation is happening.
  275. # [14:58] <tobie> :)
  276. # [14:58] <annevk> Don't tell anyone ;-)
  277. # [14:59] <odinho> Which one? :P
  278. # [14:59] <tobie> heh.
  279. # [14:59] * hsivonen still reads mlw as Mr. Last Week instead of MultiLingual Web.
  280. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> heh
  281. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> darobin: dunno why figure is not allowed in dd, but yeah seems like it should be
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  283. # [15:02] <tobie> odinho: re: I wouldn't mind WG-clustering, if WG-clustering was only about tech. But it's not. And that makes it super confusing. Discoverability is a big issue.
  284. # [15:02] <odinho> Yep. :-)
  285. # [15:03] <tobie> Admittedly, I am very slow, but it took me months (!) to figure out what was happening where.
  286. # [15:04] <tobie> ...and this was my job. Regular developers don;t have the bandwidth for this.
  287. # [15:04] <tobie> s/;/'/
  288. # [15:04] <odinho> tobie: Lots of confusion abound. The first post in the thread starts off from a confusion :]
  289. # [15:05] <tobie> True.
  290. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> darobin: hmm figure actually is already allowed in dd. maybe it's changed since the time I built those jars
  291. # [15:09] <karlcow> hmm a +1 on www-tag. Where are the reformists?
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  295. # [15:20] <Ms2ger> Ah, tobie's here
  296. # [15:21] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@113.190.96.238)
  297. # [15:23] <tobie> Ms2ger: yes
  298. # [15:24] <Ms2ger> Hi tobie :)
  299. # [15:24] <tobie> Hi!
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  305. # [15:31] <darobin> odinho: I love your plan man :)
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  308. # [15:32] <darobin> MikeSmith: ah, yeah, I thought it would be allowed
  309. # [15:32] <darobin> are you tracking it or should I look more closely?
  310. # [15:33] <Ms2ger> darobin, so, what do we bikeshed "html-testsuite" to? :)
  311. # [15:33] <darobin> Ms2ger: man, STFU, I've been hoping no one would broach that topic ever since the merging suggestion cropped up :)
  312. # [15:33] <Stevef> chris lilley is getting XML ornery https://twitter.com/svgeesus/status/293725944269643776 and https://twitter.com/svgeesus/status/293725703294316544
  313. # [15:35] <tobie> I missed an episode, apparently. What's the plan for tests, odinho?
  314. # [15:35] <darobin> I just had a meeting with the Web Crypto WG — they want to put their stuff inside html-testsuite
  315. # [15:35] <Ms2ger> tobie, you replied to his emails :)
  316. # [15:36] <odinho> tobie: I think Robin meant one of my snarky ";P" lines up here. :-)
  317. # [15:36] <odinho> tobie: So nothing that's not on the mailing list :]
  318. # [15:36] <darobin> me?
  319. # [15:37] <darobin> I would so never encourage snarkiness
  320. # [15:37] * Ms2ger snorts
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  322. # [15:39] <darobin> well, maybe except in the way that the overwhelming loftiness of my view may lead pettier men to being snarky
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  324. # [15:39] <tobie> I'm still trying to figure out whether odinho is advocating for a repo per WG, a repo for W3C or something in between.
  325. # [15:39] <darobin> odinho is advocating for one big repo
  326. # [15:39] <darobin> where we all party
  327. # [15:39] <odinho> tobie: lol. I fail at comms.
  328. # [15:39] <odinho> Party-party.
  329. # [15:39] <Ms2ger> odinho, communists?
  330. # [15:40] <darobin> well, at least one repo for all the browser stuff
  331. # [15:40] <tobie> odinho: and I'm slow.
  332. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> darobin: I tested with jar I pointed you at and it allows figure in dd and as far as I caln tell figure has always been allowed in dd
  333. # [15:40] <hsivonen> what's the context of Chris Lilley's xml-nowhere tweet?
  334. # [15:40] <darobin> MikeSmith: interesting, I have multiple "source":43276.5-43276.29: error: Element "figure" not allowed as child of element "dd" in this context. (Suppressing further errors from this subtree.)
  335. # [15:40] <tobie> darobin: I'll let you define what exactly it is you mean by "all the browser stuff."
  336. # [15:40] <darobin> tobie: I admin the repo, I decide :)
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  338. # [15:41] <darobin> hsivonen: I'm guessing polyglot
  339. # [15:41] <tobie> WFM.
  340. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> I would suggest CSS, but glazou is already unhappy
  341. # [15:41] <darobin> ah, yeah, we're not taking over the CSS tests
  342. # [15:41] <hsivonen> darobin: who argued xml-nowhere in that context?
  343. # [15:41] <darobin> though we might manage to gain enough weight to drag them over!
  344. # [15:41] <tobie> darobin: build it and they will come.
  345. # [15:41] <darobin> hsivonen: I dunno man, I stopped reading those threads
  346. # [15:42] <darobin> tobie: well, we're still not sure that we want them to come ;)
  347. # [15:42] * Ms2ger never started
  348. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> darobin, hey, so about my RDF tests...
  349. # [15:42] <darobin> a wise man Ms2ger is
  350. # [15:42] <darobin> Ms2ger: sure thing! I'll put them right next to the XML Schema ones
  351. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> /dev/null?
  352. # [15:42] <darobin> like I said, wise man
  353. # [15:43] * Ms2ger bows
  354. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I guess I still don't have sufficient clue to understand what Kingsley means by "burden for HTML5 parser developers" in the tangent on the polyglot thread. As far as I can see it doesn't relate to parsing at all but instead to making a conforming RDFa processor that does whatever stuff is needed for that, after the actual parsing.
  355. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, you're reading that thread?
  356. # [15:49] * Ms2ger passes MikeSmith the booze
  357. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> heh
  358. # [15:50] <annevk> It seems that DOM playtime is over. I wonder when the outcry starts that no longer making Attr inherit from Node breaks web architecture.
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  360. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> annevk, when the TAG says so ):
  361. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> :)*
  362. # [15:51] <annevk> Well I'm part of that group now. It's gonna be though to get consensus on that one.
  363. # [15:51] <annevk> "consensus" hah. I made a funny.
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  365. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: pretty sure I need to booze to actually understand what "producing RDF model based data from an HTML5 document comprised of fine-grained structured data islands" is. Or to care. But even as dumb as I am I know it has nothing to do with "HTML5 parsing".
  366. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> annevk, congratudolences, I guess
  367. # [15:53] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, fantasai isn't going to be happy if you want to put pseudo-elements in Selectors :)
  368. # [15:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I didn't try to understand that tangent
  369. # [15:54] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: I don’t know, why?
  370. # [15:54] * linclark is now known as linclark|afk
  371. # [15:55] <Ms2ger> Oh, hmm, are they back?
  372. # [15:55] <Ms2ger> I thought she threw them out
  373. # [15:55] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: having them somewhere else is fine with me, as long as they are defined at all
  374. # [15:56] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: selectors4 have the general rules (syntax, position, …), but not the definitions on any particular pseudo-element
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  376. # [16:01] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: do you know if the pseudo-elements are now somewhere else?
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  382. # [16:11] <annevk> hsivonen: seems you're more productive on www-tag than I am ;-)
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  406. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> I just noticed the implied scare quotes that annevk put around the word productive there
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  429. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> jsbell, thanks
  430. # [18:18] <jsbell> ms2ger: I have to resend to the list since I sent from the wrong address. Sorry for the dupe you're about to get.
  431. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> Np
  432. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> It's not like I don't get a lot of email anyway :)
  433. # [18:19] <jsbell> ms2ger: and thank *YOU*. I'm meeting with the MSFTies this Friday to do some IDB spec bashing
  434. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> Maybe I should look some more, then ;)
  435. # [18:20] <jsbell> modulo ReSpec issues... and maybe I'll end up hacking on that.
  436. # [18:20] <jsbell> Please do. Mind the open issues, though, we have a bit of a backlog to edit in.
  437. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> Oh, and a file a bug / open bugs link would be nice
  438. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> And poke darobin if respec still sucks :)
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  443. # [18:26] <darobin> heh
  444. # [18:26] <darobin> someone scare up a nice syntax and I'll implement it
  445. # [18:26] <darobin> else, wait until I have a day or so to myself to scare it up
  446. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> Next decade?
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  448. # [18:27] <darobin> re IDB though it's not entirely my fault that they're using WebIDL deprecated exception stuff
  449. # [18:27] <darobin> I reckon "this year"
  450. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> Are they still?
  451. # [18:27] <darobin> well they were
  452. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> I was thinking static operations, enums, and bug tracker links
  453. # [18:28] <darobin> I made ReSpec ignore those and they weren't happy because all their exception stuff vanished :)
  454. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> Which I'm all blaming on you
  455. # [18:28] <darobin> it has enums
  456. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> I remember that, now they claim TypeError is a DOMException
  457. # [18:28] <darobin> I forget if it has static, I thought it did
  458. # [18:28] <darobin> bug tracker link is, like, a few lines of patching so I reckon if you bug me about that tomorrow morning it'll happen :)
  459. # [18:28] * darobin off now
  460. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> I need a bot to ping people in the morning
  461. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> One that isn't me
  462. # [18:29] <darobin> infobot can do that
  463. # [18:29] <darobin> anyway, I'll leave setting up an instance to someone else :)
  464. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> I'll ping you about that in the morning ;)
  465. # [18:30] <annevk> So I'm looking into my paperwork for the first time since well, forever, and I find out I have double insurance. Apparently this means I get a bunch of money back.
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  468. # [18:30] <annevk> I should have taken an hour back in 2007 or so when I signed all those papers, to actually read what they said.
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  501. # [19:21] <odinho> Ohwell. That should be it for the day. :-)
  502. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> It's not even 8pm yet
  503. # [19:21] <odinho> :-(
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  506. # [19:22] <odinho> I've been coming quite early to work in the mornings now though. Everything from 6 (that was an outliner) to 8-9 (more usual).
  507. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> And that's early? :)
  508. # [19:23] <odinho> And it's not hip to work long hours in Norway anyway. So most of the day I'm sitting almost alone here in this huge room.
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  510. # [19:23] <odinho> "most of the day" is a extremely huge overstatement, btw.
  511. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> I'd hope so :)
  512. # [19:24] <odinho> Ms2ger: I can always do more work at home, since I has laptop now.
  513. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Do they allow you to take code home? ;)
  514. # [19:24] * Ms2ger mitm's odinho
  515. # [19:25] <WeirdAl> Ms2ger is there a crash stats IRC channel?
  516. # [19:25] <Ms2ger> KaiRo would know
  517. # [19:25] <WeirdAl> oops, wrong channel
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  524. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> heycam|away: @host and @global are the same concept. The name isn't nailed down.
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  526. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> annevk, I know you like URL parsing, so I cc'd you :)
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  543. # [19:56] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  546. # [19:58] <chriho> Morning
  547. # [19:58] <chriho> Hi, I have a feature request for: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#media-resources-with-multiple-media-tracks
  548. # [19:58] <chriho> could there be audioTrack.channels "returns number of audio channels in audio"
  549. # [19:58] <chriho> or something that indicates if it's stereo or surround...
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  574. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> darobin, and if you'd have time to accept my pull request...
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  637. # [22:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: if they used scheme:// they could have reused the same parser ws and http already use
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  639. # [22:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: kinda sad they didn't
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  684. # [23:44] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  688. # [23:47] * smaug is now known as smaug____
  689. # [23:47] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
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  696. # [23:58] * Quits: svl (~me@port974189.lnk.telstra.net) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  697. # Session Close: Wed Jan 23 00:00:01 2013

The end :)