/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-23 / end

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  361. # [09:24] <lenny557> hi out there..
  362. # [09:26] <lenny557> is there are any simple option to do linebreaks on "context.fillText" in a <canvas> ?
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  385. # [10:00] <lenny557> done tx
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  405. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> annevk, yeah, IETF...
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  451. # [12:32] <Stevef> tantek: FYI discussing <article> on HTMl WG list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Jan/0109.html
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  476. # [13:12] <darobin> Ms2ger: I haven't looked at the result, but Anssi just made: http://www.w3.org/mid/9577692B-0672-4269-9491-3D80A9F3919D@nokia.com
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  480. # [13:22] <odinho> Soeh, time to do some wiki editing I guess? :D :D -- I'll save it for this evening.
  481. # [13:22] <smaug____> hsivonen: so <main>. I assume it is something sane
  482. # [13:22] * smaug____ doesn't see it in the spec
  483. # [13:23] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  484. # [13:24] <smaug____> oh, extension
  485. # [13:24] <smaug____> but https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-extensions/raw-file/tip/maincontent/index.html gives 500
  486. # [13:27] <Ms2ger> <iframe name=foo></iframe>
  487. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> What is document.foo?
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  493. # [13:34] <stevefaulkner> smaug____: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/grouping-content.html#the-main-element
  494. # [13:34] <smaug____> thanks
  495. # [13:34] <stevefaulkner> np
  496. # [13:35] * smaug____ wonders if that will end up to html spec at some poitn
  497. # [13:36] <smaug____> point
  498. # [13:37] <stevefaulkner> smaug____: as its being implemented i guess so
  499. # [13:38] <stevefaulkner> though it is in the HTML spec, just not the one you were referring to
  500. # [13:38] <smaug____> in general we implement HTML spec from whatwg
  501. # [13:38] <Ms2ger> stevefaulkner, that's not "the HTML spec" :)
  502. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> stevefaulkner, at most, it's "the HTML 5.1 spec"
  503. # [13:39] <stevefaulkner> smaug____: yeah i realise that
  504. # [13:40] <stevefaulkner> Ms2ger: choose your brand ;-)
  505. # [13:40] <Ms2ger> stevefaulkner, I've chosen the right one, yes ;)
  506. # [13:41] * Ms2ger writes tests instead
  507. # [13:41] <Ms2ger> Also, darobin... :)
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  509. # [13:41] <stevefaulkner> right for your purposes, for non implementers...
  510. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> They would be better off reading the most recent spec too, and not worry about meaningless numbers
  511. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> I think it's sad the W3C is wasting so much time that could be used to improve the web
  512. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> Oh well
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  514. # [13:43] <darobin> Ms2ger: you called?
  515. # [13:43] <Ms2ger> darobin, I believe I still have an outstanding pull request :)
  516. # [13:44] <stevefaulkner> 5.1 is up to date...
  517. # [13:45] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah yeah, I'll get to it when my headache lifts :)
  518. # [13:45] <Ms2ger> darobin, so that my tests can give you another? ;)
  519. # [13:45] <stevefaulkner> and includes authoring advice and requirements not included elsewhere that improves the web
  520. # [13:46] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah, I can only have one headache at a time
  521. # [13:46] <darobin> I'm straightforward like that
  522. # [13:46] <Ms2ger> stevefaulkner, like, "it's okay to use layout tables"?
  523. # [13:48] <stevefaulkner> reality alert, its not OK to use layout tables, but if you do as many do, (just say no doesn't work) there are ways to mitigate their use
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  525. # [13:49] <Ms2ger> I know the arguments, but they simply don't outweigh the fact that the W3C announced that layout tables aren't so bad after all
  526. # [13:50] <stevefaulkner> nobody announced that, but its not worth arguing about
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  529. # [13:51] <Ms2ger> That was what the webdev community took from the announcement nevertheless
  530. # [13:52] <stevefaulkner> oh really I missed that pointer?
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  532. # [13:53] <stevefaulkner> i didn't even know there was an announcement
  533. # [13:53] <hsivonen> smaug____: <main> is one of those things that will need to land first for it to be in the WHATWG spec.
  534. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> stevefaulkner, oh, come on... The chair's email to public-html about the ISSUE
  535. # [13:56] <smaug____> hsivonen: ah
  536. # [13:57] <darobin> Ms2ger: I can't seem to dig up a pointer to the repo for the spec references data that Anolis uses (it's for tobie)
  537. # [13:57] <Ms2ger> darobin, it's on github/whatwg/xref
  538. # [13:57] <Ms2ger> IIRC
  539. # [13:57] <stevefaulkner> Ms2ger: i thought nobody of any consequence read html list, where is the spate of web dev articles hailing the return of layout tables?
  540. # [13:58] <darobin> Ms2ger: ah! and there I was looking all across bitbucket
  541. # [13:58] <darobin> granted, that only takes about ten minutes
  542. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> stevefaulkner, you were right, not worth my time to discuss
  543. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> darobin, and get rid of the index.html in the html-testsuite repo, please ;)
  544. # [14:00] <stevefaulkner> Ms2ger: right, getting all ornery as you does nothing
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  546. # [14:00] <stevefaulkner> lets all get back to improving the web ;-)
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  549. # [14:02] <stevefaulkner> me/ funny how people have a habit of falling off high horses
  550. # [14:02] <darobin> Ms2ger: done
  551. # [14:02] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  552. # [14:03] * darobin trots off back to email stuff on his little poney
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  557. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> Document doesn't have an indexed getter I'm missing in the spec, does it?
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  627. # [16:58] <chriho> anybody here with experience of videos with multiple audio tracks in HTML5?
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  640. # [17:28] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  656. # [17:48] <tantek> SteveF - I share your skepticism about rdf/microdata http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Jan/0114.html
  657. # [17:49] <tantek> so we do have the hAtom microformat which is well deployed by authors/developers (and supported by search engines)
  658. # [17:49] <Stevef> tantek: right, what about use for comments?
  659. # [17:49] <tantek> there's been some brainstorming around distinguishing comments
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  661. # [17:50] <tantek> Stevef - so my thoughts on comments come from the #indiewebcamp perspective - which is that ideally, every comment you write would primarily be a post on your own site which you then syndicated out to wherever you wanted the comment to show-up.
  662. # [17:50] <tantek> thus I tend to lean a bit more strongly in the direction of considering comments as full fledged posts / articles of their own (with perhaps their own comments)
  663. # [17:51] <Stevef> OK - interesting
  664. # [17:51] <darobin> that's exactly what I was referring to with Habermasian optimism :)
  665. # [17:51] <darobin> "lol u SUK" doesn't fly so well as "primarily a post on your own site which you then syndicated out to wherever you wanted the comment to show-up"
  666. # [17:51] <tantek> one of my concerns with a lot of web standards / architecture is that since so much is being driven by large companies with large silos, they don't even consider (are typically blind to) the "classic" peer-to-peer distributed/decentralized actual *web* way of thinking
  667. # [17:52] <darobin> (though I love the heart of the idea)
  668. # [17:52] <tantek> so on those fronts, I feel I have to push extra hard to get that point not just across, and considered, but made *preferable*
  669. # [17:52] <darobin> I don't think it's a "big company" thing
  670. # [17:52] <tantek> web standards *should* be optimized for *web* like behavior, not silo-behavior
  671. # [17:52] <darobin> big companies can understand decentralisation better than smaller ones I find
  672. # [17:53] * abstractjgump is now known as abstractj
  673. # [17:53] <Stevef> in the real world the current definition lends itself to less than optimal user experiences for the people who do consume <article>
  674. # [17:53] <tantek> darobin - big companies all have underlying cultural assumptions of why wouldn't you trust a small handful of big companies?
  675. # [17:53] <tantek> Stevef - perhaps we can start by documenting sites with problematic use of <article>
  676. # [17:54] <tantek> or did you already do that in the list of links you provided?
  677. # [17:54] <tantek> (wasn't sure if those were analyses of article or uses of or both)
  678. # [17:54] <darobin> tantek: oh I'm not saying that I particularly trust them, just that I'm not convinced that that's where the dividing line falls
  679. # [17:54] <tantek> darobin - there's no dividing line, it's a fuzzy cultural issue
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  682. # [17:55] <tantek> and actually, it's apparently turning generational as well, as "new kids" don't even remember being "webby" - they've grown up on and are used to silos
  683. # [17:55] <Stevef> tantek: sure I linked to some 170 sites that use article as basis for anlaysis
  684. # [17:56] <Stevef> but haven't carried that out yet, but its pretty easy to find examples of where its been (i think) overused to no good effect
  685. # [17:56] <tantek> darobin: this is good: "I wonder if recommending to mark comments up as <article> inside <details> would address the sort of issue you had in mind."
  686. # [17:56] <tantek> Stevef - yeah, it would be good to analyze such examples to see if things like darobin's suggestion would help
  687. # [17:56] <Stevef> tantek: anwyay just wanted to make you aware of the dicussion as you may be interested
  688. # [17:56] <tantek> appreciated
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  690. # [17:57] <tantek> Stevef - ah this is interesting: "the use of article to describe a one sentence comment
  691. # [17:57] <tantek> and a lengthy blog post seem at odds."
  692. # [17:57] <Stevef> as users have been complaining about section and article use and abuse
  693. # [17:57] <tantek> so tweets are often "one sentence comment[s]" - but they're certainly deserving of <article> - as they are their own posts, not necessarily "about" or in response to something (though sometimes they are)
  694. # [17:57] <darobin> tantek: what I like about details > article is that I believe it DTRT in AT *and* for sighted users
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  696. # [17:59] <tantek> darobin - agreed. and here's a real world example of such a UI: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/looperexplained
  697. # [18:00] <tantek> Stevef - the distinction you point out, between "one sentence" and "lengthy blog post" (and frankly, also "comment") is a problem that the ActivityStreams community and more recently the #indiewebcamp and #microformats communities have been working on for quite some time.
  698. # [18:01] <Stevef> darobin: yes and no, once in the details, largenumbers of comments result in the same issue
  699. # [18:01] <tantek> you're essentially describing a few typical different kinds of posts
  700. # [18:01] <darobin> Stevef: yes, but you've deliberately decided to activate the details
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  702. # [18:01] <tantek> what ActivityStreams calls "object types", and which, in this case call "note", "article", "comment"
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  705. # [18:02] <Stevef> some subtyping of article would be nice
  706. # [18:02] <tantek> (they've also got a lot of faffing about verbs, but those have never really taken off, much more overdesigned than necessary for v1)
  707. # [18:02] <darobin> Stevef: if you've decided to enter the details/summary=Comments, then I think that "Article. LOL u SUK. End of article" makes sense
  708. # [18:03] <tantek> I'm giving you the very simplified summary of AS. There's much more and there's folks trying to critically extract a valuable subset: http://indiewebcamp.com/ActivityStreams
  709. # [18:03] <tantek> Stevef - so ActivityStreams essentially does that - subtypes "articles"
  710. # [18:03] <tantek> but HTML (tag markup in general) is very bad at "subtyping"
  711. # [18:04] <tantek> at least in anyway accessible to "ordinary" developers
  712. # [18:04] <tantek> (all the tag extensibility / is="" crap is pretty doomed to fail IMHO in terms of "normal" authors. heavy coders / developers may be able to use it - same folks that used XUL, but it doesn't really scale)
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  714. # [18:05] <Stevef> darobin: if there are then 10/30 or more comments with nested replies using lists makes it much more understanadable and and navigable to users who consume the semantics
  715. # [18:06] <tantek> anyway - just wanted to invite folks, if you want to discuss different post types (note/article/comment etc.) - please feel free to hop into #indiewebcamp - as that's where a lot more of this has been *practically* discussed (people actually using the stuff on their own sites)
  716. # [18:06] <tantek> (I don't hold much hope for *web* post-type distinction discussions on peanut-gallery / support forum mailing lists)
  717. # [18:07] <Stevef> also sent this lengthy proposal/criticique on outlines (from one ben lord) to the list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Jan/0126.html
  718. # [18:07] <tantek> of course I am still a fan of ditching <section> and the outline algorithm
  719. # [18:07] <Stevef> tantek: will lurk and see what I can learn/contribute
  720. # [18:07] <tantek> though I think it is inevitable that it will simply fail to exit HTML5 CR
  721. # [18:08] * tantek is thinking more and more about writing up a series of posts on "HTML: The Good Parts"
  722. # [18:10] <tantek> so much useless and/or overly complex crap in *both* WHATWG HTML and HTML5 CR. and it's not worth wasting time whittling away at them by filing bugs on all of them. It might be easier to simply extract out the bits "that don't suck".
  723. # [18:10] <darobin> heh
  724. # [18:10] <darobin> I for one would love to read that
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  726. # [18:11] <tantek> and by all means - if anyone else would like to write their own "HTML: The Good Parts" posts - please, go right ahead. I claim no copyright or anything else on the idea.
  727. # [18:11] <tantek> (to be fair, a lot of stuff is in the spec for more political than real-world reasons)
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  729. # [18:11] <tantek> *specs I should say
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  731. # [18:14] <Stevef> tantek: I think its worthwhile trying to tweak authoring advice and requirements in the spec
  732. # [18:14] <tantek> Stevef - sure
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  734. # [18:15] <tantek> I just think there's so much noise in the spec that authors are going to go some place most of the time
  735. # [18:15] <tantek> which I suppose is what the authoring guide is for
  736. # [18:15] <tantek> darobin - do you actually *like* the schema defintions of Comment vs Article vs BlogPosting vs UserComment? (per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Jan/0113.html ) ?
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  738. # [18:16] <darobin> tantek: no, it's all too complicated
  739. # [18:16] <darobin> but it's there
  740. # [18:16] <tantek> ok, that was my impression too but I didn't want to presume
  741. # [18:16] <darobin> I was looking for something off the shelf
  742. # [18:16] <tantek> plus, Comment vs. UserComment?
  743. # [18:16] <tantek> talk about a mess
  744. # [18:16] <darobin> beats me too
  745. # [18:16] <darobin> I only found out about UserComment by following a link from BlogPost
  746. # [18:17] <tantek> my favorite is still http://schema.org/Volcano with property "faxNumber"
  747. # [18:17] <karlcow> tantek: what search engines do with hAtom. (I lived under a rock too long I think)
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  749. # [18:17] <Stevef> I mean looking at the debates about how to use stuff example: http://html5doctor.com/html5-simplequiz-7-pinterest/ something is amiss
  750. # [18:17] <darobin> but putting my hacker cap on, I reckoned "there's this thing that exists, and I can easily just slap itemtype=whatever string they have, and go have beer"
  751. # [18:17] <tantek> karlcow - *some* search engines index the dates and times of posts, and *some* search engines even have validators that show you that they've parsed the hAtom and understand the components of it
  752. # [18:18] <tantek> I should say, at least one *major* search engine that starts with a G :)
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  755. # [18:18] <tantek> darobin - "there's this thing that exists, and I can easily just slap … " is a compelling argument
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  757. # [18:19] <darobin> yeah, anything more than that and the word "ontology" pops into my head
  758. # [18:19] <tantek> lol
  759. # [18:19] <darobin> given the magnitude of the headcold I have today, I would really just not
  760. # [18:19] <karlcow> tantek: is there a blog post somewhere about who does what. It might become handy very soon for a workshop.
  761. # [18:19] <tantek> get well soon
  762. # [18:20] <darobin> ta ;)
  763. # [18:21] <tantek> karlcow - as a one-slide summary - feel free to re-use (all the usual CC) http://tantek.com/presentations/2012/09/microformats2/#slide9
  764. # [18:21] <tantek> (it's a build so you'll have to click to see the bullets if you're using a JS-enabled UA :) )
  765. # [18:23] <tantek> karlcow if you're looking for search engine support in particular, this is a good start: http://microformats.org/wiki/search-engines
  766. # [18:23] <tantek> (and the "main article" pages it links to have many more details)
  767. # [18:23] <annevk> Ms2ger: left a comment on making it more similar to ws/http just in case
  768. # [18:23] <tantek> and any further questions, hang out in #microformats and happy to answer (as others are too)
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  770. # [18:24] <Ms2ger> annevk, thanks
  771. # [18:25] <annevk> the problem with the ABNF stuff is that it's unclear you apply it after you already have distinct components
  772. # [18:25] <tantek> karlcow - what's the workshop you're teaching?
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  774. # [18:25] <annevk> oh well, dinner time
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  778. # [18:31] <tantek> Stevef that pinterest simplequiz poses quite a few challenges: http://html5doctor.com/html5-simplequiz-7-pinterest/
  779. # [18:31] <tantek> so many things to markup there to make them useful
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  792. # [18:43] <karlcow> tantek: at SudWeb in May, there will be a workshop on comments and specifically on aggregating blog posts answering each others. First as an experiment between friends.
  793. # [18:43] <karlcow> http://sudweb.fr/2013/
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  797. # [18:51] <tantek> karlcow - fascinating - definitely need to have you in #indiewebcamp then as that's exactly the kind of thing we discuss a lot
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  799. # [18:51] <tantek> also on blog posts answering each others, you may be interested in the development of h-cite: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite
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  803. # [18:57] <karlcow> thanks for the links
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  815. # [19:15] <Ms2ger> darobin, the new idlharness looks equivalent on the DOM test, at least
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  909. # [20:57] <Hixie> did anne really drop ebcdic?
  910. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> You like ebcdic?
  911. # [20:59] <Hixie> i wouldn't say _like_...
  912. # [20:59] <Hixie> it was endearing to have an encoding that in theory people could use with HTML despite it being crazytown and non-ASCII-compatible
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  914. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> I'm not sure "endearing" was the word I'd use
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  1000. # [23:24] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  1001. # [23:25] <esprehn_> tantek: ping
  1002. # [23:27] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.107.117) (Quit: weinig)
  1003. # [23:28] * Quits: bholley (~bholley@ip-41.net-89-2-149.rev.numericable.fr) (Quit: bholley)
  1004. # [23:28] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
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  1006. # [23:33] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@151.225.21.255)
  1007. # [23:34] <tantek> esprehn_ pong
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  1010. # [23:38] * pablof_ is now known as pablof
  1011. # [23:39] <esprehn_> tantek: caught you through email, wanted to discuss requestAutocomplete (or figure out who to talk to about it)
  1012. # [23:40] <tantek> through email?
  1013. # [23:40] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
  1014. # [23:41] <esprehn_> tantek: I sent an email to the address of yours I realized I had
  1015. # [23:44] <esprehn_> tantek: It'd be great to align this API with what's going on at Mozilla in a similar space
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  1020. # [23:56] * Quits: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
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  1023. # Session Close: Thu Jan 24 00:00:00 2013

The end :)