/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-01-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 26 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> dgorbik: HTMLElement inherits from Element
  4. # [00:00] <esprehn_> Hixie: I'm not going to fight that fight with the people that maintain that part of webkit, the entire thing would need to be rewritten
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> dgorbik: the DOM is a tree of Element objects (and other objects inheriting from Node), rooted at a Document object (hence Document Object Model)
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> esprehn_: so rewrite it. why would there be a fight?
  7. # [00:01] <zewt> ... i expect there would be a fight in any production browser at someone rewriting a critical component, heh
  8. # [00:01] <esprehn_> dgorbik is welcome to debate that with Apple
  9. # [00:01] <dgorbik> :D
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie> esprehn_: writing hacky code because of concerns over who's going to fight what is definitely not a good design approach :-)
  11. # [00:01] <esprehn_> I'm not going to be involved in the discussion to rewrite a major critical component of webkit just for WebVTT
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  13. # [00:02] <esprehn_> it's a year's worth of work
  14. # [00:02] <esprehn_> and a political mine field :)
  15. # [00:03] <zewt> Hixie: any production codebase is going to see massive resistance to rewriting a critical, heavily-tested and optimized component, especially if it's just for one isolated feature
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  17. # [00:04] <dgorbik> esprehn_: how is this related to the political side of things?
  18. # [00:04] <zewt> i wouldn't be surprised if the reaction was that the feature just isn't worth the reengineering cost--that isn't political at all, simply practical cost analysis
  19. # [00:05] <esprehn_> dgorbik: I don't think antti and kling would want to rewrite the entire selector matching system just for webvtt to match logical non Node things
  20. # [00:05] <esprehn_> nor do I think that approach really makes sense anyway
  21. # [00:06] <dgorbik> esprehn_: Is there even a way to do this? I wonder based on what this selector matching system would match non Node objects
  22. # [00:06] <zewt> why can't they be a Node subclass (but one that isn't exposed as a child to scripts)?
  23. # [00:07] <dgorbik> esprehn_: you will have to have some kind of an interface for what can be matched and will end up with the same Element or HTMLElement
  24. # [00:07] <esprehn_> dgorbik: yes, just use an Element
  25. # [00:07] <zewt> <zewt> what detail is that, again? <-
  26. # [00:08] <zewt> (some issue related to style)
  27. # [00:09] <zewt> (if they're Element, then they don't have a style anyway--that's HTMLElement)
  28. # [00:10] <Hixie> using something like Node or Element is an ugly hack with horrible memory characteristics
  29. # [00:10] <Hixie> there's no need for parts of webvtt to have event listener machinery, for example
  30. # [00:11] <zewt> whether or not that has horrible memory characteristics seems like an implementation detail :P
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  32. # [00:11] <zewt> (one which I know nothing about)
  33. # [00:12] <Hixie> isn't all of this an implementation detail?
  34. # [00:12] <zewt> sure
  35. # [00:12] <zewt> still an implementation detail
  36. # [00:15] <dgorbik> zewt: if we set the inline style for those webvtt elements, 'style' attribute appears and is accessible with css matching code like ::cue(v[style])
  37. # [00:15] <zewt> (if they want to deal with that eg. by introducing an internal base class of Node without event handling they can do that--it just doesn't seem like the issue here)
  38. # [00:15] <dgorbik> which is not required by specs
  39. # [00:15] <esprehn_> Hixie: can I apply transitions on these things?
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  41. # [00:16] <esprehn_> or animations
  42. # [00:16] <Hixie> dgorbik: it's not "not required", it's "required not", as in, that would be a violation of the spec
  43. # [00:16] <zewt> dgorbik: if it's an Element, it has no style (that's introduced in HTMLElement), right?
  44. # [00:16] <Hixie> esprehn_: not currently, but we should in due course fix that and provide a way to do transitions 
  45. # [00:16] <esprehn_> dgorbik: element[style] has nothing to do with style, it has to do with an element that has an attribute named style
  46. # [00:16] <Hixie> esprehn_: the main problem is the transitions that are needed for webvtt are generally directional too
  47. # [00:16] <esprehn_> err zewt I meant
  48. # [00:16] <Hixie> esprehn_: not just temporal
  49. # [00:16] <Hixie> esprehn_: e.g. sweeping a colour change left to right
  50. # [00:17] <zewt> esprehn: you definitely wouldn't set an attribute named "style"
  51. # [00:17] <dgorbik> Hixie: do you suggest separating those classes the way so we have all that is needed by selector matching in the underlying class and have everything else above? I don't see yet how it's even possible to extract selector matching and make it unified
  52. # [00:17] <esprehn_> zewt: in the hacky way of implementing this feature as dgorbik was describing you would.
  53. # [00:17] <zewt> sounds like the wrong way, then :)
  54. # [00:17] <esprehn_> yes
  55. # [00:18] <Hixie> dgorbik: i'm not familiar with webkit's code enough to make intelligent recommendations at that level
  56. # [00:18] <zewt> it makes sense to me (on first glance, at least) to parse webvtt cues to a tree of Element subclasses (or maybe just Node), and then you'd have a renderer sitting at the top of that tree, rendering based on its children
  57. # [00:18] <Hixie> dgorbik: but in principle, selectors as a concept are agnostic to the kind of node being matched
  58. # [00:18] <dgorbik> Hixie: but how would you do this if you were creating you own 'ideal' browser?
  59. # [00:19] <Hixie> dgorbik: have a generic selector-matching machinery that could be passed trees where hte nodes in the tree implemented an interface that exposed things that the selector matcher would use
  60. # [00:19] <zewt> it *might* make sense to parse to a tree of HTMLElements, and let the general-purpose DOM renderer do the rendering, but you'd need to avoid things like setting attributes
  61. # [00:20] <Hixie> dgorbik: like "what is your name", and "what is your parent", and "what are your attributes", and "what is your language", and "are you being hovered over", etc
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  63. # [00:20] <zewt> (my impression from the things that WebVTT does is that trying to render it like that would be tricky at best, though...)
  64. # [00:20] <Hixie> dgorbik: or alternatively, make the selector matching system be templated so that you could instantiate one for DOM Nodes, one for WebVTT trees, etc
  65. # [00:21] <dgorbik> Hixie: it would be much easier if we used Objective C instead of C++ I guess :-)
  66. # [00:21] <zewt> i also don't know enough (anything at all) about webkit to help, though
  67. # [00:24] <zewt> can you define an internal style property on HTMLElement, which is fed into the style determination (like the style attribute) but is internal and not reflected by any attribute, so you can set it without it being visible to selectors?
  68. # [00:24] <dgorbik> zewt: too much hackery in general code
  69. # [00:24] <zewt> why?
  70. # [00:24] <dgorbik> people don't like to see webvtt checks in the core
  71. # [00:25] <zewt> it's just another style string, fed into the style immediately after @style
  72. # [00:25] <dgorbik> or any other webvtt-specific code
  73. # [00:25] <zewt> if you can't change anything at all then give up, your restrictions make doing anything useful impossible :)
  74. # [00:26] <zewt> if you want specs to be written so they can be implemented without changing any code, you're going to find that a tough sell
  75. # [00:26] <esprehn_> nah, there's a way to to do this
  76. # [00:26] <dgorbik> zewt: I think it makes the code harder to mainain also. In the approach esprehn_ suggested (by setting the RenderStyle directly, so we are doing it at another level, not markup but rendering level) makes it much easier to keep all those specific things in a couple of files.
  77. # [00:26] <esprehn_> I already discussed it
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  80. # [00:27] <zewt> dgorbik: that's exactly the same thing as i'm saying--set the style at a level that doesn't require setting attributes
  81. # [00:27] <esprehn_> zewt: yeah, we just make the "style resolver" wise about WebVTT
  82. # [00:28] <dgorbik> zewt: I though you suggested setting those at the level of the renderstyle but then have a check so that the style property doesn't appear when we access it
  83. # [00:28] <zewt> no, set the style independently from @style, so the attribute never exists in the first place
  84. # [00:29] <dgorbik> zewt: that's what I am going to do
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  88. # [00:37] <esprehn_> zewt: it's a bit more complex since what you describe is the wrong specificity. ::cue(b) { font-weight: normal; } should override the default of bold.
  89. # [00:38] <esprehn_> but if what you did was the equivalent of style="font-weight: bold" for all webvtt <b> elements you'd override the author sheet
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  91. # [00:38] <zewt> esprehn: so apply the internal style before applying stylesheets (which itself is before @style)
  92. # [00:38] <esprehn_> exactly :)
  93. # [00:39] <zewt> "b a" isn't more complex than "a b" :)
  94. # [00:41] <zewt> for simple things like <b>, couldn't you just have ::cue(b) { font-weight: bold; } in the UA stylesheet
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  96. # [00:42] <dgorbik> esprehn_: I still have to find out why b {color: red} didnt work for internal nodes when it was define in author rules.
  97. # [00:42] <zewt> (dynamic things like the results of the webvtt positioning algorithm being where you'd need direct control)
  98. # [00:43] <dgorbik> esprehn_: I will debug this case
  99. # [00:43] <dgorbik> probably UA rules are matched against ALL nodes on the page including those that are inside of the shadow dom.
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  101. # [00:43] <dgorbik> but all the others don't
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  104. # [00:48] <esprehn_> dgorbik: yes, that's how shadows work
  105. # [00:49] <esprehn_> dgorbik: at least I'm pretty sure user agent shadows don't let author sheets effect them
  106. # [00:51] <abucur_> hi! there's a paragraph in the web-apps spec stating that not all the events are dispatched using the task queue and that other are dispatched synchronously during other tasks. does anyone have an example for that?
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  111. # [01:00] <zewt> search for "fire a simple event" and "queue a task to fire a simple event"
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  131. # [01:41] <dgorbik> esprehn_: how do you think is it best to do this in two steps? First — fix this regression and set the correct namespaces. And second — apply the right styles, this is not covered by tests yet.
  132. # [01:42] <esprehn_> dgorbik: yes, fix the bad casts first
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  149. # [02:08] <Hixie> can anyone work out if i'm missing something in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19590 ? (table parsing, the claim is there's a potential infinite loop)
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  154. # [02:26] <Hixie> am i misreading the dom spec, or is it fine to have a range whose start is at a document node?
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  164. # [02:55] <erlehmann> i have done an art.
  165. # [02:55] <erlehmann> anyone interested in media fragments beside me? :3
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  294. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> I'm starting to wonder if Anne has some moral objection to writing introductory material for his specs.
  295. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> speaking of which I wonder if "Fundamentally, the DOM is one giant memory leak." would make a good addition to the introductory section for the DOM spec
  296. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2013JanMar/0067.html
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  298. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> when somebody files something like https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18766 but doesn't actually add themselves to the Cc field, I wonder how they know when Hixie or somebody else has commented
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  339. # [09:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: I'm just bad at writing introductory material. I think it's because its correctness is hard to measure
  340. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  341. # [09:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: With algorithms you can tell when there's nothing left to remove. With introductory text and examples there's no simple rules to use.
  342. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> it's hard to hit the sweet spot on it too, I think -- between being too brief and being way too long
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  344. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> I think in some W3C specs they're really is just way too much introductory info
  345. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> especially given that the specs are supposed to be primarily for implementors who don't need that much info to understand the context
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  358. # [10:42] <Dashiva> Is whatwg.org/issues still in use?
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  378. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> Poor Hixie... Fixes a bug, gets two in return
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  410. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah "poor Hixie" is for sure a phrase we don't hear people say nearly often enough
  411. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> the Rolling Stones made a song about this
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  433. # [18:21] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Curiously enough (I can't get no) satisfaction is the number one complaint about Hixie
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  438. # [18:25] <Hixie> MikeSmith: in my experience, the answer is "they don't know when i commented"
  439. # [18:25] <Hixie> Dashiva: it's in use in that that feedback is the feedback i have to deal with
  440. # [18:25] <Hixie> Dashiva: i don't look at the votes much because people haven't ever really used it
  441. # [18:28] <Dashiva> kk
  442. # [18:29] * GPHemsley wonders when the whatwgmemes will appear.
  443. # [18:29] <GPHemsley> (Or does this fall under w3cmemes?)
  444. # [18:29] <Hixie> pretty sure w3cmemes is covering whatwg already :-P
  445. # [18:35] <gsnedders> See the latest post.
  446. # [18:39] <jgraham> To be fair there are probably far more people in W3C land that give a shit about infoset compatibility
  447. # [18:42] <jgraham> (but http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/34765672844/meanwhile-in-the-treehouse is clearly about the WHATWG, for example)
  448. # [18:43] <Hixie> the one about bz was about feedback he sent to the whatwg list, too
  449. # [18:43] <Hixie> though of course it applies to feedback he sends everywhere :-)
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  451. # [18:43] <jgraham> Yeah, but it could equally have applied to anything he said ever, more or less
  452. # [18:43] <jgraham> So it wasn't such a nice example :)
  453. # [18:43] <manu1> Has anybody else done a technical review of the EME spec yet? It's pretty bad - http://manu.sporny.org/2013/drm-in-html5/
  454. # [18:43] <Hixie> jgraham: agreed :-)
  455. # [18:43] <manu1> anybody else know of the use case they're trying to address?
  456. # [18:44] <manu1> I assumed it was "reduce content piracy"... but maybe they're after something else?
  457. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> What makes you think they have use cases to address?
  458. # [18:45] <Hixie> the use case is "browser vendor who also has content distribution deals who wants to convince paranoid deluded content producer to provide them with content"
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  460. # [18:45] <Hixie> (drm won't reduce piracy (it'll actually increase it))
  461. # [18:45] <manu1> Ms2ger: I just... you know, assumed that they're trying to solve problem.
  462. # [18:46] * Ms2ger sniggers
  463. # [18:46] <jgraham> Mmm DRM *and* plugins? What's not to like?
  464. # [18:46] <manu1> Hixie: yeah, that's the assumption I made while reviewing the spec... the goals section doesn't actually say that, though... so wondered if anyone on this list actually took part in the design of the spec (or had talks about the design of the spec) with the editors.
  465. # [18:47] <Hixie> i had high-level talks with some of the people involved, both in public and in private
  466. # [18:47] <manu1> jgraham: hey, the spec isn't about DRM! It's about plugins, that may or may not implement DRM. So, theoretically, you could use the spec without having any sort of DRM! >_>
  467. # [18:47] <Hixie> but since i disagree with the work at a moral level, i really didn't get very far into the technicalities
  468. # [18:48] <manu1> Hixie: The technical argument is pretty straight-forward if the goal was just presented clearly in the spec. They also went to great lengths to reinvent TLS in the spec, that was pretty awesome.
  469. # [18:49] <manu1> oh, and clear-text decryption keys... that was also pretty awesome.
  470. # [18:49] <Hixie> the technical argument is indeed pretty straight-forward. "what you want to do is mathematically impossible."
  471. # [18:49] * manu1 nods.
  472. # [18:49] <Hixie> but what they want to do isn't mathematically impossible
  473. # [18:49] <manu1> which is deliver a placebo to the content providers.
  474. # [18:49] <Hixie> right
  475. # [18:50] <Hixie> except unlike most placebos this one has pretty major negative second-hand side-effects
  476. # [18:50] <manu1> okay, just making sure that is what was going on and that I wasn't missing some vital piece of information... thx, Hixie.
  477. # [18:50] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure that the clearkey thing is smoke and mirrors
  478. # [18:50] <Hixie> i'm probably not the most objective person to verify this for you, fwiw :-)
  479. # [18:50] <manu1> My favorite part of the spec is this image: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/stack_overview.png
  480. # [18:50] <jgraham> Anyway, I haven't looked at this hard so I probably shouldn't comment :)
  481. # [18:51] <manu1> I did look at it in detail this morning - it's definitely smoke and mirrors.
  482. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> It's good to see the HTML WG spends its time on useful things for once.
  483. # [18:51] <manu1> (I say this having implemented a variety of DRM and PKI systems)
  484. # [18:52] <espadrine> that proposal is pretty old. Why wasn't there an outcry earlier?
  485. # [18:52] <manu1> probably because it wasn't being proposed as a First Public Working Draft, espadrine
  486. # [18:53] <Hixie> espadrine: there was huge outcry when they proposed it
  487. # [18:53] <Hixie> espadrine: it even made it as far as the tech press
  488. # [18:53] * manu1 missed that fireworks show.
  489. # [18:53] <Hixie> e.g. http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-57384129-264/standards-leader-blasts-html5-video-copy-protection/
  490. # [18:54] <espadrine> so now that it's a public working draft, they're going to do what, pressure browsers into implementing it?
  491. # [18:55] <Hixie> it's mostly being pushed by browser vendors, as i understand it
  492. # [18:56] <espadrine> well, I haven't heard of any interest in implementing it. Is there any work on that front?
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  494. # [18:56] <Hixie> espadrine: companies don't tend to spend engineering effort on writing specs they're not implementing
  495. # [18:57] <Hixie> (but they rarely comment on future products or services for legal and PR reasons, so it's normal for that not to be obvious)
  496. # [18:58] <espadrine> yes, but they wrote Dart's spec, and they weren't very successful in adding Dart (or the primitives to put a non-JS VM in) to WebKit
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  498. # [18:58] <Hixie> you asked about "interest in implementing it", not about "success in deploying it"
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  500. # [19:00] <espadrine> poor implementers.
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  504. # [19:05] <Hixie> bbl
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  507. # [19:09] * Philip` was testing some stuff on Android involving playing a video on a TV through the HDMI connection, and it refused to display the video because of HDCP, but then he found he could just remove the video buffer's protected-content flag in a user-space library and apparently defeat the whole protection system
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  513. # [19:16] <SimonSapin> Philip`: did you really think there was more than this to DRM?
  514. # [19:16] <SimonSapin> I mean, if the user can read it, well, the user can read it
  515. # [19:17] <zewt> Philip`: i think a lot of these "copy protection" mechanisms are actually to trigger legal things, rather than to actually prevent copying
  516. # [19:17] <zewt> eg. making it so flipping a flag in a userspace library is "bypassing copy protection" so they can sue you for that
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  519. # [19:23] <Philip`> SimonSapin: In this case it's not hugely trivial for the user to read the video since I think the decoded data never actually passes through the CPU (the graphics processor does all the decryption and decoding and composition, and will refuse to composite into an untrusted buffer when the appropriate flags are set)
  520. # [19:23] <Philip`> but it's not hugely hard either
  521. # [19:23] <SimonSapin> I see
  522. # [19:26] <Philip`> but I guess there's no real motivation to make it any harder than is necessary for legal reasons
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  547. # [21:18] <zewt> bleh jquery
  548. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> And a heartfelt bleh from me too
  549. # [21:19] <zewt> what kind of sadistic API has a function named width() that's both a getter and a setter
  550. # [21:19] <zewt> wasted ten minutes trying to figure out where this code is setting an element's width, and it's a width() call that i was skimming over because the name looks like a getter
  551. # [21:20] <gsnedders> zewt: Now imagine a tool that programmatically reduces JS to minimize TCs, and tries removing arguments.
  552. # [21:21] <zewt> javascript minifiers need to die in a fire
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  554. # [21:27] <zewt> why does everything with a syntax vaguely like cvs have to slightly change the shorthand for "commit"
  555. # [21:28] <zewt> during cvs i got in the habit of "cvs co"; svn broke that, so i had to relearn "svn ci"; and now git breaks *that*
  556. # [21:29] <SimonSapin> zewt: hum, git aliases?
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  577. # [22:23] <jgraham> SimonSapin: git aliases are frightening. As far as I can tell they just encorage you to do things that don't work when you are logged into other machines and prevent you helping other people who need guidance
  578. # [22:23] <jgraham> For cases like this it's just better to learn the tool warts and all
  579. # [22:24] <jgraham> zewt: gsnedders wasn't talking about a JS minifier exactly, but a testcase minifier
  580. # [22:24] <SimonSapin> jgraham: Still, I’ll keep my "graph = log --oneline --date-order --graph --all --decorate" alias
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  582. # [22:25] <jgraham> (which does minify js of course but in a manner, and with an intent, that is quite different from most minifiers)
  583. # [22:26] <jgraham> SimonSapin: I guess for essentially synthesising new commands it's more defensible. But still annoying that you can't rely on it
  584. # [22:27] <jgraham> Although, as we learnt this week, the solution to that is to keep all your dotfiles, including your private keys, in github so they are accessible from anywhere
  585. # [22:27] <jgraham> And to anyone
  586. # [22:29] <SimonSapin> crypto reduces all problems to key management problems, and GitHub solves the latter
  587. # [22:37] <espadrine> jgraham: I followed your advice, I feel a lot safer already.
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  590. # [22:42] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, you mean, "hg gl"?
  591. # [22:42] <SimonSapin> maybe
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  609. # [23:46] <GPHemsley> Oh, here's another one: how do you pronounce "json"?
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  615. # [23:55] <gsnedders> GPHemsley: "Jay-son" is how I've always heard it said.
  616. # [23:55] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  617. # [23:56] <GPHemsley> Does "son" rhyme with "bun" or "con"?
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  619. # [23:56] <gsnedders> en son/sun
  620. # Session Close: Sun Jan 27 00:00:00 2013

The end :)