/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-04 / end

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57. # [02:53] <Hixie> ok so what's the story on mousewheel and wheel events
58. # [02:53] <zewt> heh, been a while since i've had to track down a browser compositing bug causing garbage rendering
59. # [02:53] <zewt> mobile safari gets upset in a touch-scroll container if an pos: absolute is inside it and its relative container is outside of it, apparently
60. # [02:54] <Hixie> https://github.com/brandonaaron/jquery-mousewheel/blob/master/jquery.mousewheel.js is depressing
61. # [02:54] <Hixie> and i bet none of these events fire if you pinch on a device, either
62. # [02:54] <Hixie> sigh
63. # [02:55] <zewt> why would it?
64. # [02:55] <zewt> or they
65. # [02:55] <Hixie> device independence and all that
66. # [02:56] <muyyatin> This may totally be the wrong place to ask, but since MouseEvent.initMouseEvent was deprecated in DOM Level 3 Events, and as far as I can tell the event constructors in the DOM4 aren't implemented yet, is there something else I should be using to synthesize a mouse event with specific clientX/clientY, etc?
67. # [02:56] <zewt> if touchpad pinching should fire mousewheel events, so should scrolling with a scrollbar
68. # [02:57] <Hixie> muyyatin: use whatever is implemented
69. # [02:57] <Hixie> zewt: lgtm
70. # [02:57] <zewt> nsmtm
71. # [02:57] <muyyatin> Hixie: thanks! Didn't know if I was missing something hidden.
72. # [02:58] <Hixie> muyyatin: the reality of the situation is that if something is implemented in two browsers, it's highly unlikely to ever be removed, so "deprecated" doesn't mean much
73. # [02:58] <zewt> often when people listen to mousewheel events it's for non-scrolling things, like zooming in gmaps--it's not just another onscroll
74. # [02:59] <Hixie> i just want some device-independent way of knowing when to zoom that doesn't require my app to implement a different codepath for keyboard, mouse, and touch
75. # [02:59] <zewt> firing mousewheel because mousewheel happens to have default behavior of scrolling would be like firing a keypress of a down button for scrolling down
76. # [02:59] <Hixie> i can do that for "activate" using "onclick"
77. # [02:59] <Hixie> i don't really care what the solution is, so long as we have one
78. # [03:00] <zewt> if you want good zooming on mobile you need a lot more than mousewheel events, since with pinch zoom you want to try to anchor the zoom on the user's fingers
79. # [03:00] <Hixie> mousewheel zooms should anchor to the mouse position, it's not that different
80. # [03:01] <Hixie> just two points instead of one
81. # [03:01] <zewt> pinch zooming normally has scrolling built-in, too
82. # [03:02] <zewt> if you really want good controls for that, it really wants to be a simple hook to let the browser do it
83. # [03:02] <Hixie> lgtm
84. # [03:02] <zewt> like -webkit-overflow-scrolling: touch
85. # [03:02] <Hixie> like i said. i just want a generic solution. i don't care what it is, so long as it's device-independent.
86. # [03:03] <zewt> (^ only gives scrolling, not zoom)
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93. # [03:36] <othermaciej> does anyone have a good reference for evidence that application/xhtml+xml content even when authored by experts/advocates is often not well-formed?
94. # [03:36] <othermaciej> I recall that someone makes a habit of producing YSODs from xml expert sites but I don’t remember who
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100. # [03:40] <zewt> well, if "well-formed" includes html author conformance rules, then i'd expect the level of validation xml gives to be pretty meaninglessly thin
101. # [03:42] <othermaciej> no, I’m not interested in HTML-level conformance for purposes of this question
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103. # [03:51] <zewt> at least html conformance has a purpose :P
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105. # [03:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: Philip` used to put FFFF bytes into forms or URLs and they would return invalid XML if they contained the character, or some such
106. # [03:52] <zewt> "FFFF bytes" is a curious turn of phrase
107. # [03:54] <zewt> reminds me of a futurama line: "there's no such thing as 2"
108. # [04:01] <othermaciej> I wanted a good reference for purposes of commenting on http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5161214 but I gave up and didn’t use a link
109. # [04:01] <kerozene> is there anything you can do with xhtml currently that you can't do with html, apart from self-flagellate over ysods?
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111. # [04:04] <Hixie> kerozene: embed custom namespaces
112. # [04:08] <kerozene> are there any public examples of that being useful?
113. # [04:08] <Hixie> kerozene: no, it's a bad thing. :-)
114. # [04:08] <Hixie> (IMHO)
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116. # [04:19] <zewt> the only thing i've ever found xhtml useful for is implementing subsets of html for non-browser things, where it's easier to find a small xml parser than an html one
117. # [04:19] <zewt> but 100% useless for the web
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121. # [04:23] <zewt> people stuck on the notion of syntax checking just need to learn that html simply doesn't have any fatal parse errors, just a lot of warnings; with that in mind, html is the same as any other language, it just happens to have 0 parse errors (in the general usage of the term, not the HTML spec term)
122. # [04:25] <kerozene> it seems that while namespacing is usually recommended for introducing novel tags that may conflict with later standard tags, historically namespaces have more often been used for overlapping collections of already-specified tags. so the whole thing just becomes a big mess
123. # [04:26] <kerozene> is that fair to say?
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125. # [04:28] <Hixie> i dunno about that
126. # [04:29] <Hixie> in my experience namespacing is just used as an excuse to not standardise things properly
127. # [04:30] <kerozene> so it's a figleaf for balkanisation, like vml?
128. # [04:31] <Hixie> something like that
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130. # [04:35] <zewt> also in the real world if you want to namespace element names, you don't need a big complicated mechanism like xml's
131. # [04:36] <zewt> beware any time you see "namespace" and "url" in the same breath
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154. # [07:43] <muyyatin> Totally weird question, but is the shape of a stroke undefined in edge cases like http://jsfiddle.net/pGrSN/1/ ?
155. # [07:44] <muyyatin> It's different between WebKit and Gecko, and my naive stroke implementation matches WebKit
156. # [08:01] <muyyatin> A bit easier to see at http://jsfiddle.net/pGrSN/2/ (with a smaller stroke on top)
157. # [08:02] <muyyatin> Essentially two separate questions:
158. # [08:04] <muyyatin> (1) Is the stroked path defined to be essentially a path that is built from the offset curves (like the WebKit implementation shows), where certain regions over the actual stroked path aren't painted with a stroke?
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160. # [08:05] <muyyatin> (2) Are visual differences based on numerical approximations of quadratic curves OK as far as the specification compliance is concerned, or is Firefox's stroke of that path buggy?
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164. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> muyyatin: off hours here a bit
165. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> you might wanna ask on whatwg@whatwg.org
166. # [08:18] <muyyatin> MikeSmith: oh no worries, hopefully people will see it if they wake up. and if not I'll do that
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225. # [10:50] * darobin waves at Ms2ger!
226. # [10:50] <Ms2ger> Feeling better already? :)
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231. # [11:00] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah! not even jetlagged
232. # [11:00] <darobin> and I guess you heard: tobie is joining our little testing party
233. # [11:01] <Ms2ger> Oh, right, you guys were having a party :)
234. # [11:01] <jgraham> ANd we weren't invited :p
235. # [11:01] <darobin> any visit to Mozilla feels like a party
236. # [11:01] <darobin> jgraham: Lars was there
237. # [11:02] <darobin> he volunteered you for plenty of stuff!
238. # [11:02] <darobin> "Oh yes, James will bring you coffee no problem at all."
239. # [11:02] <jgraham> Would have been cold by the time I got there
240. # [11:02] <jgraham> So that was a silly plan
241. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> Ice coffee?
242. # [11:03] <darobin> mmmm, ice coffee
243. # [11:03] <jgraham> Would have been warm by the time I got there
244. # [11:03] <jgraham> So that was a silly plan
245. # [11:05] <darobin> mmmmmmmm, lukewarm coffee!
246. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> Anyway, now we've got annevk...
247. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> jgraham, we're still hiring ;)
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250. # [11:08] <jgraham> Should I reply to Art pointing out that in the wider context git is a lower risk choice than hg?
251. # [11:08] <darobin> ah, annevk is official now? cool!
252. # [11:08] <darobin> even MS is shipping its dev tools with git support now
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293. # [13:35] <Velmont> There was also some talk about GitHub actually having some sort of support for us, as we were a big NGO. But it's not even as if we should really need it.
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299. # [13:46] <darobin> Velmont: Opera is a big NGO?
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301. # [13:50] <Ms2ger> So, about that pull request... :)
302. # [13:50] <jgraham> darobin: Yes, didn't you know, we are actually a non-profit dedicated to helping developing nations achieve prosperity through provision of web access in low/intermittent bandwidth environments
303. # [13:50] <jgraham> The listing on the Oslo stock exchange is just a ruse
304. # [13:51] <Ms2ger> Velmont, shouldn't you be at work?
305. # [13:52] <darobin> jgraham: pretty smart
306. # [13:52] <darobin> Ms2ger: processing, processing...
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311. # [13:52] <Ms2ger> :)
312. # [13:53] <Velmont> Ms2ger: I am. :-) Just got a laptop, boyeah.
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314. # [13:54] <Velmont> darobin: ...
315. # [13:54] * Quits: nunnun (~hiro@2001:200:1c0:3624:20c:29ff:fe02:11c8) (Quit: Bye)
316. # [13:54] <jgraham> Velmont: I think you meant darobin: [... ]
317. # [13:54] <jgraham> Although really . isn't good ascii art
318. # [13:55] <jgraham> [=== ] is better
319. # [13:55] <darobin> can you do that twirly \|/- thing on IRC?
320. # [13:55] <darobin> or [##### ]
321. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> [=====> ]
322. # [13:56] <jgraham> Or do what alpine does and have a whole selection of annoying indeterminate progress metres
323. # [13:56] <jgraham> *meters
324. # [13:57] * Ms2ger prefers progress feet
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326. # [13:57] <jgraham> Imperialist
327. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> And that coming from a Brit
328. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> Didn't you invade 95% of the world?
329. # [13:59] <kerozene> before breakfast
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331. # [13:59] <jgraham> It does sounds like an impossible thing
332. # [14:00] <jgraham> The queen of hearts would approve
333. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> why isn't keygen in the "Obsolete but conforming" section?
334. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> we really don't want any new sites to be using it, right?
335. # [14:02] <jgraham> I seem to remember there was a discussion about this
336. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> I remember Mark Pilgrim's blog posting way back when
337. # [14:03] <Ms2ger> What we really want is html5test to check it
338. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html5-episode-35#keygen
339. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: heh
340. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> I'm surprised html5test doesn't have it there already
341. # [14:04] <Ms2ger> I'm pretty sure it does
342. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> oh shit he does
343. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> what a knob that dude is
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345. # [14:05] <Ms2ger> News at 11
346. # [14:05] <jgraham> We should just tell the Chinese that he was critical of The Party
347. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> heh
348. # [14:05] <kerozene> what's wrong with html5test, testing stuff not nailed down?
349. # [14:05] <Ms2ger> Remind me never to get on the wrong side of jgraham
350. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> one problem with the spec now is that people read it and think keygen is some new cool element
351. # [14:06] <jgraham> kerozene: Very shallow tests. Tests of non-standard features. Buggy tests. Easy PR-value score
352. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> and then they write to somewhere (e.g., me) with ideas about extending it further and such
353. # [14:06] <kerozene> good to know
354. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> And unresponsive to bug reports, last I checked
355. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> kerozene: and it's just one guy whose choice of what to test is just arbitrary and idiosyncratic
356. # [14:07] <kerozene> but it's got github and everythinggg
357. # [14:08] <jgraham> Oh yeah, it's totally uncalibrate
358. # [14:08] <jgraham> d
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360. # [14:08] <Ms2ger> Even the W3C is on github, so I wouldn't take that as a sign of quality :)
361. # [14:09] <kerozene> I meant that people use it as a badge of openness
362. # [14:09] <jgraham> It's as open as you make it
363. # [14:10] <jgraham> The guy that runs it seems to have very different goals from people here
364. # [14:10] <jgraham> +many
365. # [14:11] <Ms2ger> And it's our goals that matter, of course ;)
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370. # [14:20] * Velmont is now known as odinho
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372. # [14:20] <odinho> Ohwell, might as well change.
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394. # [14:53] <Ms2ger> darobin, I'm not an existing contributor? :)
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397. # [14:54] <darobin> Ms2ger: your productivity increased too — I can feel the anger powering your commits :)
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399. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> btw I left http://w3c-test.org/html/ for now because I figured there were existing links to it and such
400. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> but at some point I guess we need to drop it
401. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> or set up redirects
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404. # [15:02] <jgraham> redirects++
405. # [15:02] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Thanks for doing the work btw
406. # [15:02] <jgraham> I was away when you pinged me about it, so forgot to reply :)
407. # [15:03] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_afk
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409. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> no worries
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411. # [15:08] <odinho> darobin: Why "Artur Barstow" but "ext Odin Hørthe Omdal"? :-(
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413. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> The ext is an Art-ism, I think
414. # [15:08] <odinho> Nokiaism it seems.
415. # [15:09] <odinho> Ms2ger: But this was from darobin's email... Although I guess the client might've just copied it in.
416. # [15:09] <odinho> Ms2ger: Or darobin is evil and just ext-ing me.
417. # [15:11] <Ms2ger> Well, darobin *is* evil, we know that ;)
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419. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> Oh, and we might want a new index.html for http://w3c-test.org/html-testsuite/
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421. # [15:12] * Ms2ger will leave that to odinho and darobin_
422. # [15:13] <odinho> Why am I suddenly someone to defer to? I usually do the deferring :P
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424. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> That's why :)
425. # [15:13] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156) (Quit: Leaving)
426. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> So, is krisk going to resubmit the MS tests?
427. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> I also see Opera's still need to be done...
428. # [15:14] * Ms2ger looks at odinho and jgraham
429. # [15:14] <darobin_> odinho: huwah?
430. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> <Ms2ger> Oh, and we might want a new index.html for http://w3c-test.org/html-testsuite/
431. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I think he's planning to. I think he was saying it was blocked on me getting the mirroring set up
432. # [15:15] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
433. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> Ah, good
434. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> Do we meet tomorrow?
435. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> yeah I think so
436. # [15:15] <darobin> odinho: I didn't do anything with your name or whatnot, whatever weirdness happened is entirely Art's fault
437. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> Or, well, you; I probably won't make it
438. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> hmm I guess the HTML index page for the CR branch needs to be replaced or nuked
439. # [15:16] <odinho> So, the only comments we really have hanging is the naming issue.
440. # [15:16] <Ms2ger> web-tests?
441. # [15:16] <darobin> SHIP IT
442. # [15:16] <Ms2ger> browser-tests?
443. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> I like that
444. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> web-tests
445. # [15:17] <odinho> Yeah, I like web-tests too.
446. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> it's shorter
447. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> Yeah, but I don't want semantic-web-tests ;)
448. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> drive-by-web-tests
449. # [15:18] <jgraham> "drive-by"-web-tests
450. # [15:18] <odinho> jgraham or someone proposed webplatform-tests IIRC, -- but web-tests is shorter and works just as well IMHO.
451. # [15:18] <jgraham> The quotes are to exclude people that can't figure out obscure shell quoting rules
452. # [15:19] <Ms2ger> Why do you want to exclude me? First git, now this :(
453. # [15:19] <jgraham> I think I excluded myself first :)
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455. # [15:21] <jgraham> odinho: The only reason I like webplatform-tests is that it ties in with webplatform.org
456. # [15:22] <jgraham> It would give the impression that the W3C has a strategy
457. # [15:22] <jgraham> Which might not be true, but we could fake it for them
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462. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> that's the spirit
463. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> Someone figure out what's the right rendering for http://jsfiddle.net/pGrSN/2/ , please
464. # [15:37] <jgraham> Philip`: I think he's talking to you :)
465. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> I've long given up on expecting anything from Philip`
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469. # [15:51] * JohnAlbin_afk is now known as JohnAlbin
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471. # [15:59] <darobin> jgraham: errr, I'd rather the testing effort weren't conflated with webplatform.org
472. # [16:00] <darobin> otherwise people might start looking there for docs which we plan to put elsewhere :)
473. # [16:00] <darobin> Ms2ger: I think the right rendering is "some sort of penis-like shape"
474. # [16:01] <darobin> you should probably be using assert_looks_like_a_penis()
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478. # [16:11] <jgraham> darobin: I don't think it is similar enough to be confusing
479. # [16:11] <jgraham> But it creates what you might call a unified brand
480. # [16:11] <jgraham> If you were the sort of person that worked in marketing
481. # [16:12] <jgraham> If you *are* the sort of person that works in marketing, I should introduce you to Bill Hicks :)
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486. # [16:15] <darobin> lol
487. # [16:15] <darobin> jgraham: it's a unified brand between two things that I don't think should be unified
488. # [16:15] <jgraham> Well
489. # [16:15] <darobin> I reckon that tobie wanted to just grab a new domain under which to put all the testing stuff
490. # [16:15] <darobin> I'd defer to him, as my new Testing Overlord
491. # [16:16] <jgraham> I maybe don't know enough about the webplatform.org stuff
492. # [16:16] <jgraham> (except that they still seem to have badly imported MSDN docs, which is a bit worrying)
493. # [16:16] <darobin> heh
494. # [16:16] <jgraham> But "web platform" is to #whatwg what "HTML5" is to the rest of the world
495. # [16:17] <darobin> W3C uses OWP with similarly resounding success
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497. # [16:18] <darobin> I do so cherish the irony that the people who complain most about the success of the "HTML5" moniker are from #whatwg though :)
498. # [16:19] * jgraham doesn't complain
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500. # [16:19] <darobin> yeah I simply couldn't give less of a shit
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502. # [16:19] <darobin> if people are using the right tech, they can call it whatever they want
503. # [16:19] <jgraham> It is, to quote the TV show Green Wing "the unexpectedly bitter taste of victory"
504. # [16:19] <darobin> lol, indeed :)
505. # [16:20] <zewt> grr @ setTimeout minimum delays
506. # [16:21] <jgraham> zewt: Feel free to grrr at all the people that accidentially created 100% CPU usage by abusing it
507. # [16:21] <zewt> ios safari always has a minimum delay (not just on recursion), which means that when setTimeout(fire click event, 0) within a touchend event, there's a delay between them and a chance for the page to do a style update
508. # [16:21] <annevk> W3C Member access again
509. # [16:22] <zewt> jgraham: not relevant (you only need to delay on recursion to stop that, not all the time)
510. # [16:22] <zewt> (iirc that's also all the spec requires)
511. # [16:22] <jgraham> zewt: Oh, well that sounds more like grr at iOS Safari bug
512. # [16:22] <annevk> aka back in the bubble
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514. # [16:22] <jgraham> annevk: So, there's a downside as well?
515. # [16:22] <zewt> yes, that's what i said :)
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518. # [16:23] <zewt> so my workaround for safari click delays has to fire click at the start of touchend (during the capture phase on window), which is earlier than it should be
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521. # [16:25] <zewt> and that introduces other problems. bleh--what possible reason does apple have for that horrid click delay thing in safari, anyway
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523. # [16:25] <zewt> other than "make web apps look unresponsive so people install ios apps instead"
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525. # [16:27] <annevk> jgraham: from the outside it was easier to see how closed certain things are, such as the TAG
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531. # [16:39] <tobie> annevk: that's kind of weird. The TAG should be super visible.
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533. # [16:41] <tobie> darobin: Testing Overlord seems like exactly the right thing to put on my new business cards. Will that make you all fear me?
534. # [16:42] <darobin> tobie: we've sometimes tended to want to hide the TAG, actually ;)
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536. # [16:42] <darobin> tobie: yes, sure!
537. # [16:42] * darobin muahaha, and another falls for the "overlord" trick!
538. # [16:42] <darobin> along with jgraham, my new Coffee Delivery Overlord!
539. # [16:45] <tobie> titles are only useful if they're inspire fear (lots of it). Seems you're not taking this seriously enough, darobin.
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541. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> darobin: does respec have any provision for adding a "This document is informative only."? Or otherwise any switch for flagging a doc as non-normative?
542. # [16:48] <darobin> tobie: oh I do
543. # [16:48] <darobin> my title says "HTML Editor"
544. # [16:48] <darobin> I would expect the prospect of that being true to scare quite a few people off
545. # [16:49] <darobin> MikeSmith: no, but Denis has asked me to do that
546. # [16:49] <darobin> I was planning on doing it as soon as I'm through with email
547. # [16:49] <Ms2ger> Isn't it more "HTML Copy-Editor"?
548. # [16:49] <tobie> darobin: you clearly don't get this. Purpose of a scary title is to scare others not yourself.
549. # [16:50] <darobin> heh
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552. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> my official title speaks intimidation pretty strongly I guess
553. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> Special Missions Subsection Junior Interim Floor Manager
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577. # [17:43] <annevk> tobie: will try to make it that way I suppose
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581. # [17:43] <annevk> tobie: congrats with the Fellow appointment btw
582. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Case sensitivity as the first thing on a Monday morning
583. # [17:45] <tantek> annevk: https://twitter.com/t/status/298471161090686976
584. # [17:45] * Ms2ger is glad he doesn't have to go to CSS F2Fs
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586. # [17:45] <tantek> Ms2ger - you're just afraid of outing yourself to more people ;)
587. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Pah
588. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Should've come to fosdem
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592. # [17:54] <annevk> tantek: sounds like you guys are having a good time :)
593. # [17:54] <tantek> annevk - I'm smiling, which is good enough for now. :)
594. # [17:55] * tantek is suppressing an impulse to bring up prefixing.
595. # [17:55] <annevk> I hope John still has the energy to fight the good fight
596. # [17:56] <tantek> oh he's going strong
597. # [17:56] <annevk> only with a prefix you'll get Unicode case folding? :p
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601. # [18:06] <tantek> "Who's in favor of a straw poll?"
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604. # [18:08] <jgraham> CSS WG: doing it wrong so you don't have to
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607. # [18:10] <jwalden> heh
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609. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> OH: "That should be clearly specified."
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611. # [18:16] <gsnedders> FAILED (errors=499, failures=234)
612. # [18:16] <gsnedders> Yay!
613. # [18:16] <gsnedders> Okay, not quite. :)
614. # [18:16] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
615. # [18:16] <gsnedders> (html5lib, single codebase for Py2/3)
616. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> It runs?! :)
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620. # [18:17] <gsnedders> And the majority of the tests pass, now.
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622. # [18:18] <gsnedders> (27k tests)
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624. # [18:24] <tantek> (still on case (in)sensitivity) :)
625. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> tantek, did you guys put a time limit on the discussion or is this just going to go on until lunch?
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629. # [18:30] <slightlyoff> hey annevk
630. # [18:31] <tantek> good day slightlyoff
631. # [18:31] <slightlyoff> what's your thinking on having addEventListener() return the EventTarget itself by default?
632. # [18:31] <slightlyoff> hey tantek
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636. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> So, why do we have HTMLTimeElement.datetime and HTMLModElement.dateTime?
637. # [18:32] <slightlyoff> annevk: was talking this through with JakeA, and since it returns undefined right now, I don't think it'll break much, if anything
638. # [18:32] <slightlyoff> I can imagine that someone might be testing it for falsey
639. # [18:32] <slightlyoff> but I can't think of any other scenario where it'd break things
640. # [18:32] * JakeA waves
641. # [18:33] <tantek> Ms2ger - we just decided to break and summarily end discussion on that topic! (for today ;) )
642. # [18:34] <tantek> .datetime vs. .dateTime. W.T.F.
643. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> tantek, if you guys are talking about case, maybe throw that in the group :)
644. # [18:35] <tantek> Ms2ger, can we call .datetime a bug and fix it to .dateTime?
645. # [18:35] <tantek> since HTMLModElement is likely an older interface than HTMLTimeElement?
646. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> That would be nice
647. # [18:36] * Ms2ger looks who supports <time>
648. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> Oho
649. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> Opera supports time.dateTime
650. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> Okay, let me declare this a spec bug
651. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Hixie, ^
652. # [18:39] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: plus any other microdata impl, at least
653. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, sorry?
654. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, the spec has time.datetime
655. # [18:39] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: We impl it for the sake of microdata, basically
656. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> "An error occured while submitting your comment. Please let ian@hixie.ch know."
657. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I let you know ^
658. # [18:40] <tantek> lol
659. # [18:41] <Hixie> weird
660. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> Ah, here you are
661. # [18:42] <Hixie> oh, hah
662. # [18:42] <Hixie> my bad
663. # [18:43] <Hixie> we changed the milestones...
664. # [18:43] <Hixie> what's hte default now, Unsorted?
665. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> Yeah
666. # [18:43] <annevk> slightlyoff: if we add target.on() or some such I don't really see the point
667. # [18:44] <slightlyoff> annevk: do we have target.on() in the spec now?
668. # [18:44] <slightlyoff> also, why not fix the existing one if it's risk-free?
669. # [18:44] <annevk> slightlyoff: not yet, was discussing the last couple of details
670. # [18:44] <slightlyoff> I mean, the name and 3rd param are much of the problem
671. # [18:44] <slightlyoff> so I support .on()
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673. # [18:44] <slightlyoff> (obviously...arv and I added it to the Dart DOM for a reason)
674. # [18:45] <annevk> slightlyoff: well you also want delegation support and probably not have to use removeEventListener() at all (instead return a function/object to deregister so you don't have to store the callback anywhere)
675. # [18:45] <Hixie> Ms2ger: ok fixed
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677. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> Hixie, how about the bug I tried to file? :)
678. # [18:46] <annevk> and if the API becomes that much more convenient and will be used instead, there's not much point in changing how an existing one behaves, even if theoretically risk-free (if it is, people do weird stuff)
679. # [18:46] <Hixie> Ms2ger: also fixing that
680. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> Thanks
681. # [18:47] <slightlyoff> annevk: I see...but adding a return value to the existing API changes none of those goals, right?
682. # [18:47] <slightlyoff> annevk: or is the idea that you'd like to use that return value to get to that point with addEventListener()?
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684. # [18:47] <annevk> slightlyoff: well changing the existing API if we expect that the existing API will not be used going forward seems like make work
685. # [18:48] <annevk> I'd rather have developers and QA work on something else :)
686. # [18:48] <arv> annevk, slightlyoff: even with event delegation there is value in on()... There are lots of cases where you have non DOM event targets
687. # [18:48] <arv> sorry, non Node event targets
688. # [18:48] <annevk> Jake had an idea how to make delegation not be bound to anything
689. # [18:48] <annevk> by making it a callback
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691. # [18:50] <slightlyoff> annevk: so I'm trying to get the Future thing ironed out, and extensibility is key...the latent issue is that when you want to extent (e.g., via an event), you can't use .then()
692. # [18:50] <slightlyoff> annevk: and you don't really want to break the chain
693. # [18:51] <slightlyoff> annevk: i.e., you should be able to do f.addEventListener(...).then(...);
694. # [18:51] <slightlyoff> and this is a non-Node case
695. # [18:51] <slightlyoff> but it's still important
696. # [18:51] <annevk> I'm not sure I follow exactly
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698. # [18:51] <slightlyoff> annevk: so there are a set of things you want to allow subclasses to do; e.g., add progress events or upgradeneeded events and the like
699. # [18:51] <slightlyoff> they aren't completion values
700. # [18:52] <slightlyoff> i.e., they don't end a chain of Futures
701. # [18:52] <slightlyoff> they're additional semantics for events that happen before/after/around resolution
702. # [18:52] <annevk> wouldn't you just use the full API in that case rather than the Future API?
703. # [18:52] <slightlyoff> no
704. # [18:52] <slightlyoff> the Future API *is* the full API for a lot of this stuff going forward, I'd hope
705. # [18:52] <slightlyoff> if we enable this, Future subclasses are how you'd express what, e.g., IDB uses EventTarget for
706. # [18:53] <slightlyoff> since they're EventTarget instances themselves
707. # [18:53] <slightlyoff> so the question is, how do we enable chaining in that API, since that's one of the best bits of Future use
708. # [18:53] <slightlyoff> (and no, I don't think I have to justify wanting this...see all of jQuery)
709. # [18:53] <annevk> if there's no end of task, how would chaining even make sense?
710. # [18:54] <slightlyoff> it's chaining calls *on the same Future*
711. # [18:54] <slightlyoff> it's not vending a new Future from the then() return values of another
712. # [18:54] <annevk> (at this point I'm rather lost I think, not arguing against it or anything :))
713. # [18:54] <slightlyoff> annevk: instead of writing:
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715. # [18:55] <slightlyoff> var f = async(); f.addEventListener("...", ...); f.then(a, r);
716. # [18:55] <slightlyoff> you'd write:
717. # [18:55] <slightlyoff> async().addEventListener("...", ...).then(a, r);
718. # [18:56] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
719. # [18:56] <slightlyoff> assuming you return a new future from the then call, you should be able to keep going:
720. # [18:56] <slightlyoff> async().addEventListener("...", ...).then(a, r).done(...);
721. # [18:56] <annevk> oh so just chaining
722. # [18:56] <slightlyoff> yeah
723. # [18:56] <slightlyoff> that's the only reason I'm asking for returning the EventTarget from the addEventListener() call
724. # [18:57] <slightlyoff> (or a .on() that does the same)
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726. # [18:57] <annevk> yeah the problem with that is that I'd want to return a function to unregister the event
727. # [18:57] <annevk> otherwise you'd have to remember the callback
728. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> Everyone else hates that ;)
729. # [18:57] <annevk> well or an object
730. # [18:57] <annevk> whatever
731. # [18:57] <slightlyoff> annevk: the function object can have a ref to the future?
732. # [18:58] <zewt> slightlyoff: that's not a pattern that the platform typically bothers with
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734. # [18:58] <slightlyoff> zewt: sorry, that's sort of a busted argument by default
735. # [18:58] <annevk> yeah, could maybe do on().ref and on().remove()
736. # [18:58] <zewt> (and honestly it makes for pretty ugly code)
737. # [18:58] <zewt> slightlyoff: sorry, you'll have to do better than that
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739. # [18:58] <annevk> x.on().ref would have ref point to x or some such
740. # [18:58] * Ms2ger tunes out again
741. # [18:59] <annevk> dinnertime
742. # [18:59] <slightlyoff> zewt: afraid I don't. Saying "it should be better" means "it should be different", ipso facto
743. # [18:59] <slightlyoff> annevk: yeah, heading home too
744. # [18:59] <slightlyoff> annevk: can live with that
745. # [18:59] <zewt> you're saying it should be different, it's not "better"
746. # [18:59] <annevk> i'll be online tomorrow again, we can discuss it some more
747. # [18:59] <slightlyoff> zewt: I'm saying "better" is always a discussion, but for anything to be better it must be different than the current state
748. # [18:59] <slightlyoff> zewt: I have no time for software conservatives
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750. # [19:00] <zewt> i have no time for people with bad attitudes
751. # [19:00] <slightlyoff> at least not when it comes to effecting progress
752. # [19:00] <Hixie> Ms2ger: fixed
753. # [19:00] <slightlyoff> great, then I'm done here = )
754. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> Hixie, great, thanks
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757. # [19:10] <volkmar> Hixie: we agree that <input type='time' min='00:01' step='86400000'> doesn't have a valid value?
758. # [19:11] <volkmar> given that we step >= 86400000, the only valid value is 00:00
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768. # [19:19] <Hixie> volkmar: 00:01 seems like a valid value?
769. # [19:19] <Hixie> volkmar: (if there's a min, the step counts from the min, iirc)
770. # [19:20] <volkmar> oh... indeed
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780. # [19:37] <GPHemsley> isn't "datetime" one word in computer speak?
781. # [19:38] <GPHemsley> (I'm arguing against treating "time" as a separate word for camel-casing)
782. # [19:39] * Quits: jgv (~jgv@rrcs-24-39-132-214.nyc.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
783. # [19:39] <zewt> the only place i can think of offhand where it's used (space or not) is python
784. # [19:39] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@38.122.109.194)
785. # [19:39] <zewt> (i use python a lot, so its name feels more natural to me, but it's just one sample, so)
786. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> Then again, python likes lowercase
787. # [19:43] <zewt> if they wanted two words they'd have used "date_time", though they do prefer shorter, easier-to-type names
788. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> startswith and stuff like that
789. # [19:43] <zewt> (which is more important for a common datetime class in python than it is for a relatively infrequently used string in HTML, of course)
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796. # [19:58] <zewt> ... confused, is flexbox in ios safari or not
797. # [19:58] <zewt> caniuse claims some version of it is in there, but i don't see any flex- or -webkit-flex- styles
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801. # [20:01] <zewt> "display: -webkit-box", must be a really old version
802. # [20:02] <zewt> i guess if it's been in since ios 3.2 it must be, heh
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809. # [20:09] <kerozene> is <picture><source ... likely to happen?
810. # [20:09] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
811. # [20:10] * Quits: dcherman2 (~dcherman@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
812. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> No
813. # [20:11] <miketaylr> heh
814. # [20:12] <kerozene> seriously? why is there so much activism about it then?
815. # [20:13] <kerozene> sorry, maybe this is all quite explicit in some mailing list thread
816. # [20:15] * Quits: teleject (~christoph@cpe-66-68-22-12.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: teleject)
817. # [20:15] <marcosc> kerozene: the main thing is the use cases. Right now, there is a gap. If srcset fills that gap then there will be much rejoicing.
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822. # [20:18] <kerozene> marcosc: thanks. just had a look at it here: http://www.w3.org/community/respimg/2012/05/11/respimg-proposal/
823. # [20:18] * Joins: dcherman (~dcherman@164.55.254.106)
824. # [20:18] <Hixie> GPHemsley: "A byte sequence is a sequence of bytes." isn't a particularly helpful definition :-)
825. # [20:19] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@207.218.72.65) (Quit: sicking)
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831. # [20:21] <jgraham> zewt: In python per PEP8 the module should have been datetime and the class DateTime. But it predates PEP8 I guess. Or at least predates the stdlib caring about PEP8
832. # [20:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: Nice progress
833. # [20:21] * Quits: henrikkok (~henrikkok@3306ds3-amb.0.fullrate.dk) (Quit: Leaving.)
834. # [20:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: While you're around, thoughts on moving to github (for the sake of Travis CI, amongst other things) and splitting the repo up into multiple repos?
835. # [20:23] <jgraham> I was already considering github because not Google Code
836. # [20:23] <jgraham> I thought people might be upset about the hg->git transition though
837. # [20:24] <jgraham> I am happy to split the repos into python/php/ruby/etc.
838. # [20:24] <gsnedders> Testdata I guess we could keep in hg, given that's what the W3C is using.
839. # [20:24] <jgraham> They are?
840. # [20:24] <gsnedders> Well, I mean test.w3.org is
841. # [20:24] <jgraham> The problem with testdata is
842. # [20:25] <jgraham> That it really really sounds like a usecase for submodules
843. # [20:25] <gsnedders> Yeah, it does.
844. # [20:25] <jgraham> I think going forward we should assume that all important W3C stuff will be in git
845. # [20:25] <gsnedders> Which is why on the whole git makes more sense.
846. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> jgraham, boo
847. # [20:26] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
848. # [20:27] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Sucks to be you :p
849. # [20:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also goddamnit why does lxml return bytes on Py2?
850. # [20:27] * Quits: baku (~baku@207.218.72.65) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
851. # [20:27] * gsnedders rages
852. # [20:28] <jgraham> Ms2ger: But, seriously, if it would create a problem for Mozilla if we move this stuff we should try to fix that
853. # [20:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: Maybe git subtree can solve all problems
854. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> It only creates problems for people who don't have a Stockholm Syndrome for git yet :)
855. # [20:29] <gsnedders> jgraham: git subtree?
856. # [20:29] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You don't have any infrastructure that tries to automatically sync the tests or anything?
857. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> I've got scripts
858. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> They're broken for HTML now, I guess
859. # [20:30] <jgraham> gsnedders: http://apenwarr.ca/log/?m=200904#30
860. # [20:30] <jgraham> gsnedders: (now in git mainline)
861. # [20:30] <jgraham> Ms2ger: So I should file them under "need to be fixed anyway"?
862. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> Oh, hmm, the html5lib tests, you mean
863. # [20:31] * Ms2ger misread that
864. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> hsivonen might have a script; I don't see one checked in
865. # [20:32] * Joins: eresair_ (~eresair@c-24-5-78-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
866. # [20:32] <jgraham> I will check with hsivonen tomorrow then
867. # [20:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: ^
868. # [20:33] * Joins: Kolombiken1 (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se)
869. # [20:33] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think we should do this, but probably not when you are in the middle of a major refactoring
870. # [20:34] <jgraham> So let's keep Google Code for now and fix it when you have 499 fewer errors and whatever-it-was fewer fails
871. # [20:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: Agreed.
872. # [20:35] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: jarek)
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874. # [20:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: Not sure how to keep over the Py3 history, though
875. # [20:37] * Quits: pablof (~pablof@144.189.31.4) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
876. # [20:38] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well, you will still have the history, it will just be a bit confusing
877. # [20:38] <jgraham> I mean
878. # [20:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: I mean when splitting the repo up
879. # [20:38] <jgraham> Well it depends how you do it
880. # [20:39] <jgraham> You can pull everything and then rewrite the history to remove all the commits in the non-python directories
881. # [20:39] <jgraham> and then have a commit where the python3 directory is removed and the python/ directory is stripped
882. # [20:39] <gsnedders> And then at the end move it?
883. # [20:40] <jgraham> Exactly
884. # [20:40] <gsnedders> (Well, it'll be the other way around, python3 will become root)
885. # [20:41] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
886. # [20:41] <jgraham> Well whichever
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888. # [20:42] * gsnedders adds more assert isinstace(x, text_type), type(x) to the codebase
889. # [20:42] <gsnedders> (Just to make sure Py2 keeps unicode everywhere)
890. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> instace?
891. # [20:43] <gsnedders> blehblehbleh
892. # [20:43] <jgraham> Short for "is instant ace!"
893. # [20:44] <jgraham> gsnedders' new video microblogging service
894. # [20:44] <gsnedders> I'm surprised you didn't make an emo joke there.
895. # [20:45] * Joins: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
896. # [20:46] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@144.189.31.4)
897. # [20:46] <gsnedders> So parsing now works in the joint codebase, though serializing does not.
898. # [20:46] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-171-66-14.range86-171.btcentralplus.com)
899. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> Oh man, making emo jokes about gsnedders is so 2008
900. # [20:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: I was thinking about making penis jokes at twitter's expense
901. # [20:47] <gsnedders> jgraham was doing it a few months ago, at least internally.
902. # [20:47] <jgraham> But emo would have been better
903. # [20:47] <jgraham> Could probably have gone with emo penis jokes
904. # [20:48] <jgraham> ;)
905. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Parser works fine, now, BTW.
906. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Treewalking/serializing to go.
907. # [20:49] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@m8f2736d0.tmodns.net)
908. # [20:50] * Quits: thiessenp (~thiessenp@47.pool62-37-74.dynamic.orange.es) (Quit: Peter is off to fight crime.)
909. # [20:51] <jgraham> Nice :)
910. # [20:51] <gsnedders> Also, back to Njáls saga.
911. # [20:52] * Quits: stevefaulkner (~stevefaul@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: stevefaulkner)
912. # [20:55] <kerozene> is he burnt yet?
913. # [20:55] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.0.61) (Quit: weinig)
914. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Well, I'm not reading it in order...
915. # [20:56] <gsnedders> So... sort of?
916. # [20:56] <kerozene> how come you're reading it?
917. # [20:56] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
918. # [20:56] <gsnedders> kerozene: University course on Old Norse. Linguistics, influence on English, is the fundemental reason.
919. # [20:57] <kerozene> I have a copy but I couldn't get anywhere with it
920. # [20:57] <kerozene> figures
921. # [20:57] <gsnedders> I have two, one in Old Norse and one in English. :)
922. # [20:57] <kerozene> yikes
923. # [20:58] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
924. # [20:58] <gsnedders> Speaking of which, time to confuse my brain some more and make it even more a mix of Swedish, Norwegian, and Old Norse, unable to remember what word is what language :)
925. # [20:58] <gsnedders> (Damn it Opera!)
926. # [20:58] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@216.239.55.196) (Quit: jamesr)
927. # [20:59] * Joins: Druide_ (~Druid@ip-178-203-141-163.unitymediagroup.de)
928. # [20:59] * marcosc shows gsnedders his knife... "from old norse, now give me your money!" :)
929. # [20:59] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@203.63.91.194)
930. # [21:00] <gsnedders> marcosc: I refuse to pay ransom. You'll just come back and demand more, till the country in bankcrupt.
931. # [21:01] * marcosc sticks gsnedders with the pointy end
932. # [21:01] <marcosc> wasn't gonna get my money anyway
933. # [21:01] <kerozene> it's a jungle in here
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936. # [21:04] <gsnedders> (The largest payment from England was around 30k kg (i.e., 30Mg) of silver)
937. # [21:04] <gsnedders> (The largest amount of surviving English coinage from the period is in Sweden.)
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939. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> Excellent
940. # [21:10] * Joins: dcherman2 (~dcherman@164.55.254.106)
941. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> My hg-based script actually works perfectly on the new git repo
942. # [21:11] * Quits: dcherman (~dcherman@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
943. # [21:14] <GPHemsley> Hixie: But is it an unhelpful definition? ;)
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945. # [21:18] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
946. # [21:18] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
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951. # [21:36] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
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953. # [21:37] <gsnedders> treewalkers/lxmletree.py needs totally rewriting, basically
954. # [21:37] <zewt> i don't think i'll ever stop typing "var foo(bar) { }" in JS
955. # [21:37] <Hixie> is anne around?
956. # [21:38] * linclark is now known as linclark|afk
957. # [21:38] <zewt> i really wish foo.dataset.x = null deleted the attribute instead of setting it to "null"
958. # [21:39] <Hixie> just do delete foo.dataset.x;
959. # [21:39] <gsnedders> Don't delete properties. That's evil.
960. # [21:39] <zewt> it's really annoying to have to say if(value) foo.dataset.x = value; else delete foo.dataset.x; every time
961. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> It's not in this case
962. # [21:39] <zewt> (or rather, if(value != null))
963. # [21:40] <Hixie> zewt: ah, yeah, if you don't know ahead of time if you're adding or removing, that's sad
964. # [21:40] <zewt> "sad"?
965. # [21:40] <Hixie> sad that the API doesn't work for you
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967. # [21:40] <zewt> i end up writing a helper function, which is okay but unpretty
968. # [21:40] <Hixie> yeah
969. # [21:40] <zewt> set_value(foo.dataset, "bar", value)
970. # [21:40] <Hixie> what is setting "value" in this case?
971. # [21:41] <Hixie> like, how do you end up with "Null"?
972. # [21:41] <zewt> well a common case is eg. function is_logged_in() { return true/false; } document.body.dataset.loggedIn = is_logged_in();, and I end up with "false" where i'd rather the property not be set at all
973. # [21:42] <Hixie> ah
974. # [21:42] <Hixie> interesting
975. # [21:42] <Hixie> so it's not just null
976. # [21:42] <Hixie> hmmm
977. # [21:42] <zewt> bool is probably the more common case actually yeah
978. # [21:43] <Hixie> yeah i don't have a good answer for you there other than a helpfer function
979. # [21:44] <zewt> i'll resist the temptation to try to hack DOMStringMap's prototype, heh
980. # [21:44] <zewt> (in the list of Things That Will Bite Me In The Ass Two Years From Now)
981. # [21:44] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@m8f2736d0.tmodns.net) (Quit: tantek)
982. # [21:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: See commit just pushed.
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984. # [21:48] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
985. # [21:49] <zewt> it'd be nice if a.x = undefined was the same as delete a.x
986. # [21:49] <zewt> sort of silly to allow defining a value to undefined, heh
987. # [21:49] <gsnedders> It's sort of silly to allow undefined to be redefined.
988. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> "return node.tail and (node, "tail") or node.getnext()" doesn't work anymore?
989. # [21:51] <gsnedders> It does, just tidying up a bit
990. # [21:51] <gsnedders> Given we don't care about < 2.6
991. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> Makes sense
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994. # [22:01] <zewt> box-sizing buggy on ios safari? :|
995. # [22:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also: finish unifying codebases, decide whether we drop soup support for the next release, make sure tests pass (add the AAA limits, currently), move to git, then release?
996. # [22:01] <zewt> (for border-box)
997. # [22:07] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, and take fantasai's patches? ;)
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1000. # [22:07] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: As I said to her ages ago, I don't want to take them as is.
1001. # [22:07] * Parts: arunranga (~otherarun@pool-71-125-195-137.nycmny.east.verizon.net)
1002. # [22:08] <gsnedders> The functionality will get added. I wonder where my mostly-finished impl was...
1003. # [22:08] <Ms2ger> wfm :)
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1008. # [22:09] <jgraham> gsnedders: Sounds like a plan
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1012. # [22:12] <zewt> some weird interaction between border-box and display: table, i guess
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1014. # [22:13] <muyyatin> I have a number of Canvas spec questions (all based on different behavior between browsers). Should I ask here or send an email somewhere?
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1023. # [22:40] <Hixie> muyyatin: different browser behaviour is a bug, but feel free to ask here
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1028. # [22:42] <muyyatin> Hixie: First of all, I'm working off http://phet.colorado.edu/files/phet-scene/tests/browsers/canvas-test-suite.html rendered in different browsers
1029. # [22:43] <muyyatin> Hixie: There are a number of differences in rendering quadratic / cubic bezier curves, and some occur only with specific line caps
1030. # [22:44] <muyyatin> Hixie: For example, is there anywhere it is noted what the "inflated" path is defined as for #trace-a-path? For cubics with a cusp, does it inflate around the cusp?
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1033. # [22:46] <muyyatin> Hixie: Additionally, does the Canvas spec allow for differences rendering quadratic / cubic bezier curves that occur due to imprecision of approximation offset curves? (top-left-most example shows it most clearly)
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1037. # Session Close: Mon Feb 04 22:54:03 2013
1038. #
1039. # Session Start: Mon Feb 04 22:54:03 2013
1040. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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1042. # [23:03] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
1043. # [23:03] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
1044. # [23:03] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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1056. # [23:22] <zewt> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12855123 ... seriously?
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1058. # [23:23] <zewt> ios silently discarding timers from within touch events during scrolling
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1067. # [23:38] <zewt> i'm pretty convinced that mobile safari hates me personally
1068. # [23:39] <zewt> window.scrollY will go beyond the bottom, if you're rubber-band-scrolled past the end, but it won't go negative if you do it at the top
1069. # [23:39] <Hixie> muyyatin: sorry, was afk
1070. # [23:39] <Hixie> muyyatin: not sure i know the answers to your questions unfortunately
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1077. # [23:49] <muyyatin> Hixie: No worries! I'm not sure if this behavior is spelled out anywhere, and browser vendors may not be able to easily change implementations since a lot of this is determined by underlying graphics engines
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The end :)