/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 05 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [00:17] <myndzi> "If node is the target node, terminate in a match state." - what is the 'target node' in this case?
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  23. # [00:23] <JonathanNeal> What constitutes an element getting a HTMLXConstructor (where X is Audio, Div, Span, Li, etc.)?
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  35. # [00:48] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: you mean, what does it mean for there to be one?
  36. # [00:48] <JonathanNeal> Yes, is there a criteria?
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  38. # [00:49] <Hixie> oh you mean what constitues a reason for an element getting a constructor?
  39. # [00:49] <Hixie> hm
  40. # [00:49] <Hixie> dunno
  41. # [00:49] <Hixie> for audio, it was added before it was an element
  42. # [00:50] <Hixie> then when we retrofitted it into being an element, we made it constructable so the API wouldn't change much
  43. # [00:50] <JonathanNeal> Okay.
  44. # [00:50] <Hixie> the only other two are Image and Option and similarly predate there actually being elements at all
  45. # [00:50] <Hixie> so they were also retrofits, effectively
  46. # [00:51] <myndzi> hixie, your nick seems familiar but i can't place it
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  51. # [00:57] <Hixie> myndzi: i've used it for many years...
  52. # [00:58] <myndzi> i imagine so, but if you don't recognize me then i must be thinking of someone else ;)
  53. # [00:58] <Hixie> oh i dunno about htat
  54. # [00:58] <Hixie> i have the worst memory for people
  55. # [00:58] <myndzi> well i've been on irc a long time haha, seen lots of nicks that i never talked to i'm sure :P
  56. # [00:59] <myndzi> wtf does it mean to "pretend p has been seen and reprocess"
  57. # [00:59] <myndzi> been seen where? how would i reprocess with the goal of finding an open p tag without actually having one?
  58. # [01:01] <Hixie> where does it say that?
  59. # [01:01] <myndzi> parsing rules under syntax.html
  60. # [01:02] <myndzi> 'an end tag whose tag name is "p"'
  61. # [01:02] <Hixie> the string "pretend p has been seen and reprocess" isn't in the spec as far as i can tell
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  63. # [01:02] <myndzi> "act as if a start tag with the tag name "p" had been seen, then reprocess the current token"
  64. # [01:03] <myndzi> after transcribing these rules i do see a common pattern, which i'm grateful for :P
  65. # [01:03] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#act-as-if-a-token-had-been-seen
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  68. # [01:04] <myndzi> ah. so "insert a p token" basically :P
  69. # [01:04] <Hixie> not necessarily
  70. # [01:04] <myndzi> p is an element in the html namespace yes?
  71. # [01:05] <Hixie> could involve closing some other elements, doing things with formatting elements, etc
  72. # [01:05] <Hixie> foster parenting
  73. # [01:05] <Hixie> all kinds of stuff
  74. # [01:05] <Hixie> depends where you have to do it
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  76. # [01:05] <myndzi> oh right, i was thinking it would reprocess the end tag (which it will)
  77. # [01:05] <myndzi> but first it must process the opening tag
  78. # [01:06] <myndzi> well that's beyond the scope of what i have to do, so i'll have to treat it like the others for now
  79. # [01:07] <myndzi> it looks like in general i can simply have a list of scope delimiters to search for, and when i get a non-matching tag, look up which scope it's in and either ignore or fix as specified
  80. # [01:07] <myndzi> ignore if there isn't an open tag in scope, fix if there is
  81. # [01:07] <Hixie> are you writing an html parser?
  82. # [01:08] <myndzi> patching one
  83. # [01:08] <myndzi> it's not structured favorably for proper implementation
  84. # [01:08] <myndzi> but it's choking on missing li and td tags
  85. # [01:08] <Hixie> i recommend just starting over then
  86. # [01:08] <myndzi> i may at some point
  87. # [01:08] <myndzi> but for now i need a working fix asap
  88. # [01:08] <Hixie> it's probably less work than patching it, and we have a ton of tests :-)
  89. # [01:08] <myndzi> i'd try to use aredridel's parser but i can't figure out HOW, it has no documentation haha
  90. # [01:09] <myndzi> rather, i can't figure out how to integrate it into cheerio
  91. # [01:09] <myndzi> and anyway, as long as the rules are simple, the patch is easy
  92. # [01:09] <myndzi> i just needed to come up with a generalization that will work sufficiently for our purposes :P
  93. # [01:09] <myndzi> i get where you're coming from but my boss is already on my ass all the time about trying to do things Right instead of Fast
  94. # [01:10] <myndzi> and when it affects business it's not a good time to argue hehe
  95. # [01:11] <myndzi> some of these rules are fairly confusing/irritating
  96. # [01:11] <myndzi> for example, closing non-special tags says to close implied end tags
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  98. # [01:11] <myndzi> but closing implied end tags only does anything if the current tag is special
  99. # [01:13] <myndzi> i guess that means it must happen in some other situation, but man my head! :\
  100. # [01:13] <Hixie> you mean "generate implied end tags"?
  101. # [01:14] <myndzi> yeah
  102. # [01:14] <myndzi> i guess it could reach a special tag as part of the loop process
  103. # [01:15] <Hixie> <div><p></div> has to close the <p>
  104. # [01:15] <myndzi> except it says to abort in that case
  105. # [01:15] <Hixie> i guess i don't understand what you mean exactly
  106. # [01:15] <Hixie> do you have an example that invokes the algorithm that is pointless?
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  113. # [01:36] <myndzi> i could try, but not right now
  114. # [01:36] <myndzi> here is one that's worth looking at though
  115. # [01:36] <myndzi> (This will never fail, since the loop will always terminate in the previous step if the top of the stack — an html element — is reached.)
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  117. # [01:36] <myndzi> but the list for element in select scope does not include 'html'
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  121. # [01:45] <Hixie> myndzi: if you're in select scope, then you'll stop at the select.
  122. # [01:46] <Hixie> myndzi: (everything is in the list for select, except optgroup and option)
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  124. # [01:47] <myndzi> yeah, presumably it relies on having inserted the select earlier
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  172. # [02:51] <muyyatin> I wish pointer-events would apply to Canvas elements in IE. It's not really MORE of a security risk, since you could replace the canvas with an embedded SVG image using toDataURL(). </rant>
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  337. # [10:53] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I sync the html5lib tests manually when I happen to be working on related stuff
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  341. # [10:57] <jgraham> hsivonen: Would you care if they were in git instead of hg?
  342. # [10:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: not really
  343. # [10:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: Excellent :)
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  518. # [17:32] <slightlyoff> annevk: about the on()/addEventListener() return...
  519. # [17:32] <slightlyoff> you around?
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  523. # [17:39] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  527. # [17:44] <JonathanNeal> Good morning!
  528. # [17:46] <slightlyoff> howdy dglazkov
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  551. # [18:40] <annevk> slightlyoff: am now
  552. # [18:40] <annevk> slightlyoff: middle of meeting week
  553. # [18:41] <slightlyoff> yeah, sorry to pounce durring your first week
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  555. # [18:43] <annevk> I'm thinking next week will be better
  556. # [18:43] <annevk> there's also all these silly UK forms I need to fill out
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  558. # [18:46] <slightlyoff> annevk: was thinking that the returned object should have a method that allows you to disconnect (and perhaps reconnect)
  559. # [18:46] <annevk> yeah, that's the idea
  560. # [18:47] <zewt> if anybody's bored and feels like taking a stab at explaining this behavior before i file a bug on webkit: https://zewt.org/~glenn/test-webkit-transition-bug.html run test(); the text appears on top of the blue box above it at weird times
  561. # [18:47] <annevk> well, initially Jake came up with the idea of just returning a function, but people didn't like that
  562. # [18:47] <zewt> annevk: hi
  563. # [18:47] <zewt> heh
  564. # [18:47] <annevk> still need to ask some people about memory usage around that
  565. # [18:48] <zewt> annevk: i'm curious if you find anything out, since i'd expect creating an object and creating a closure function to be pretty much the same thing
  566. # [18:48] <zewt> but of course reality doesn't always meet expectations, so
  567. # [18:49] <annevk> well, if you have an object you still need the function
  568. # [18:49] <annevk> so you'd have at least twice the stuff
  569. # [18:50] <zewt> but it'd be the same function on all of the objects, just a value hanging off the interface like any other interface function
  570. # [18:52] <annevk> yeah, not sure how that works, guess that varies per engine
  571. # [18:52] <zewt> either way you (at least naively) have references to two objects: either the observation and an interface, or the observation and a function
  572. # [18:52] <slightlyoff> note: functions are objects =)
  573. # [18:52] <zewt> slightlyoff: right, but the important thing is that this is a closure, not just a function
  574. # [18:53] <zewt> that is, you aren't returning the same function every time, you still have to allocate something to stash what it's for
  575. # [18:53] <zewt> anyway, yeah, let me know what you find out
  576. # [18:54] <slightlyoff> there's no difference (aside from optimization) between allocating a new function and a new object of some other sort
  577. # [18:54] <slightlyoff> zewt: closures aren't magic
  578. # [18:54] <zewt> slightlyoff: that's what i'm saying :)
  579. # [18:54] <slightlyoff> yes, it's possible to optimize away internal storage for a function that closes over no free variables
  580. # [18:54] <slightlyoff> but not all engines will (or do)
  581. # [18:55] <slightlyoff> and we can't require that in the spec
  582. # [18:55] <zewt> not really related here
  583. # [18:55] <zewt> since it *does* have storage (the function would have to have a reference to the event handler it manipulates)
  584. # [18:55] <slightlyoff> correct
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  593. # [19:02] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  594. # [19:03] <JonathanNeal> Y U NO ALLOW NEGATIVE PADDING?
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  596. # [19:03] <Hixie> what would it mean?
  597. # [19:05] <JonathanNeal> Well, before I answer that, let me admit that "padding" is the wrong word to describe the problem I'm trying to solve. I'm trying to give an element a negative inset for its contents, similar to what a negative padding might do, in theory.
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  600. # [19:08] <zewt> (negative margins won't work for your case for some reason?)
  601. # [19:08] <JonathanNeal> I'll put an example online.
  602. # [19:08] <zewt> or do you want to extend the contents beyond the box?
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  605. # [19:11] <zewt> reduced weird webkit bug, and still not sure how to work around it; bleh
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  607. # [19:14] <annevk> hmm smaug____ doesn't even care
  608. # [19:15] <annevk> well I guess that's settled then
  609. # [19:15] <annevk> now I just need to find some time
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  611. # [19:18] <JonathanNeal> I have a container with 4 panels. These panels have gutters between them, like columns in print, but there are no gutters between the edge of the panels and the container. Since this is being done on the web, I'm taking advantage of media queries. At high resolutions, the panels have these widths: 50%, 50%, 50%, and 50%, so that visually they look like 2 rows. At smaller resolutions, the panels have these widths: 100%, 50%, 50%,
  612. # [19:18] <JonathanNeal> 100%, so that visually they look like 3 rows.
  613. # [19:19] <zewt> annevk: btw. not sure i got a reply to just extending addEventListener instead of adding a whole new entry point
  614. # [19:19] <annevk> I think that'd be just confusing
  615. # [19:19] <annevk> and doesn't improve on the long name complaint
  616. # [19:19] <zewt> how so? handler = elem.addEventListener("click", handler, { alwaysBubble: true, capture: false })
  617. # [19:20] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: this seems reasonably easy, is there more to it?
  618. # [19:20] <slightlyoff> zewt: you're still typing "addEventListener", which sucks
  619. # [19:20] <zewt> while i'm happy to have shorter names, it's not a good enough reason to add a new, different API
  620. # [19:20] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: that's it.
  621. # [19:20] <zewt> (alias on = addEventListener if anything, no need for distinct APIs)
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  623. # [19:21] <slightlyoff> zewt: cart before the horse. Lets make something good and *then* see if we can work back to patching addEventListener to support it (which is likely ,but should not be a key goal)
  624. # [19:22] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: and what is your markup? just four elements back to back?
  625. # [19:22] <slightlyoff> zewt: also, naming is important. Those who say "short names are not enough" are not paying attention to the history of libraries
  626. # [19:22] <JonathanNeal> In one container, yes.
  627. # [19:22] <zewt> no, don't start by making a whole new API; start with the features and use cases you want, and design an API for them
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  629. # [19:23] <slightlyoff> zewt: uh...you just pre-disposed and outcome and then said "design for your use-case", which is defeated by pre-supposing the outcome
  630. # [19:23] <zewt> and i'm pretty sure the interface I proposed handles the use cases people want (being able to remove the handler without retaining a reference to the function; being able to ignore the bubble flag for event delegation; event delegation filtering)
  631. # [19:24] <slightlyoff> zewt: honestly, this is like the second day in a row that you're making me regret signing onto IRC
  632. # [19:24] <zewt> slightlyoff: okay, you're apparently not capable of civil conversation, so i'm not having one with you
  633. # [19:24] <zewt> wow, first time i've been tempted to /ignore someone on this channel
  634. # [19:24] <zewt> congrats, etc
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  636. # [19:25] <annevk> zewt: I think having a new API map to the same abstract concept is better than retrofitting old APIs
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  638. # [19:25] <annevk> zewt: because you then a) double the testing and b) need to handle cases like boolean or dictionary
  639. # [19:25] <zewt> annevk: why? this seems like a straightforward extension
  640. # [19:25] <annevk> if we want to advocate on() anyway there's no need to touch the old code
  641. # [19:25] <zewt> a) it definitely doesn't double the testing (what?), and b) that's what webidl is for
  642. # [19:25] <annevk> just needs to speak the same language
  643. # [19:26] <annevk> it's more confusing too imo
  644. # [19:26] <zewt> ... why?
  645. # [19:27] <annevk> because suddenly addEventListener returns an object that allows for removal rather than using removeEventListener for that, etc.
  646. # [19:27] <annevk> seems kinda obvious
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  648. # [19:28] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2080 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2081
  649. # [19:28] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: i sadly had to add a wrapper div around each one because we don't have ::outside yet
  650. # [19:28] <zewt> annealtf4
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  654. # [19:31] <zewt> for the irc log record, there's nothing confusing about adding a feature to addEventListener to make it return an object instead of nothing
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  656. # [19:32] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: got it, so you can't use the wrapper div.
  657. # [19:32] <JonathanNeal> I see.
  658. # [19:33] * smaug____ does care
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  660. # [19:36] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: you've also got overflow in your example
  661. # [19:36] <JonathanNeal> the body is scrolling x
  662. # [19:36] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: yeah it probably needs minor tweaks
  663. # [19:36] <Hixie> overflow-x:hidden e.g.
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  666. # [19:39] <JonathanNeal> Right, which has its own issues. That's where I'm at too.
  667. # [19:40] <JonathanNeal> I don't wrap each panel though, I put a wrapper just inside the container.
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  669. # [19:40] <Hixie> the wrapping of each panel lets you more easily just set the horizontal width at the margin level
  670. # [19:40] <Hixie> you can probably get it to work with box-sizing too
  671. # [19:41] <Hixie> if you don't care about the boxes being _exactly_ equal width, you can easily get rid of the scrollbar by setting the left margin on the first one and the right margin on the last one to 0
  672. # [19:41] <Hixie> and then removing the negative margins
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  701. # [20:28] <JonathanNeal> I'm using box-sizing: border-box.
  702. # [20:28] <JonathanNeal> I wish it were the default anyway.
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  763. # [22:28] <zewt> i ooooi
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  769. # [22:52] <zewt> did i just vim all over the channel
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The end :)