/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 06 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <zewt> i guess one problem with the "clone a DocumentFragment then appendChild it" template pattern is you lose any reference to the nodes when they're inserted :|
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  20. # [00:20] * smaug____ wonders why table sorting has anything to do with microtasks
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  35. # [01:03] <volkmar> Hixie: by any chance, do you know how the size of the <input type='file'> in webkit is computed?
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  37. # [01:04] <Hixie> like, in pixels?
  38. # [01:04] <Hixie> no idea
  39. # [01:04] <Hixie> i would assume it's fixed? or based on the font-size?
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  42. # [01:12] <volkmar> Hixie: I guess so
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  47. # [01:18] <Hixie> volkmar: TabAtkins might know
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  236. # [10:55] <jgraham> odinho: In test metadata is seriously overrated
  237. # [10:55] <jgraham> Please don't makework people with it :)
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  246. # [11:22] <odinho> jgraham: author is extremely helpful
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  248. # [11:22] <odinho> jgraham: The help-assert things not as much right now. But for IDB, I did add lots of asserts etc to the tests, and had a script hilight the parts of the spec that was covered.
  249. # [11:22] <odinho> jgraham: That was very helpful.
  250. # [11:22] <jgraham> odinho: Happily git provides that information for you
  251. # [11:23] <jgraham> And with the directory structure thing you get close to help-assert with no effort
  252. # [11:23] <marcosc> Is it true that all the kids are no longer using booleans in APIs? That they prefer strings even in cases where things are clearly suited to be a boolean data type?
  253. # [11:23] * jgraham goes looking for a five year old to ask
  254. # [11:24] <odinho> marcosc: ... No? Strings instead of stupid integers.
  255. # [11:24] <odinho> So called constants.
  256. # [11:24] <marcosc> yeah, that one makes sense
  257. # [11:24] <marcosc> but ...
  258. # [11:24] <marcosc> see this: http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-web-alarms-20130205/#interface-alarmmanager
  259. # [11:24] <jgraham> marcosc: It is certainly true that a) people are using strings rather than named constants and b) there is a school of thought that bools in APIs are always bad
  260. # [11:24] <marcosc> the enum in that API
  261. # [11:24] <marcosc> enum TimezoneDirective { "respectTimezone", "ignoreTimezone" };
  262. # [11:25] <marcosc> seems kinda silly to have a required enum that is just a boolean
  263. # [11:25] <jgraham> Well
  264. # [11:25] <odinho> marcosc: More readable
  265. # [11:26] <jgraham> The theory is that AlaramManager.add(some_date, true)
  266. # [11:26] <marcosc> odinho: right, it's more readable, but the type could still be a boolean
  267. # [11:26] <odinho> marcosc: although camelCase bloat is superugly.
  268. # [11:26] <jgraham> is impossible to understand without the API documentation to ahnd
  269. # [11:26] <jgraham> *hand
  270. # [11:26] <marcosc> AlaramManager.add(some_date, "respectYo")
  271. # [11:26] <marcosc> would still work just fine
  272. # [11:26] <marcosc> if the type was boolean
  273. # [11:26] <odinho> marcosc: lol, but people won't write that
  274. # [11:26] <jgraham> Woah
  275. # [11:26] <odinho> marcosc: And doesn't for false
  276. # [11:27] <jgraham> That's crazy
  277. # [11:27] <odinho> And it is crazy
  278. # [11:27] <odinho> ^_^
  279. # [11:27] <marcosc> sure, it's crazy
  280. # [11:27] <odinho> So, down with the crazy man
  281. # [11:27] <jgraham> Personally, I would have set a default for respectTimezone and had
  282. # [11:27] <marcosc> I agree
  283. # [11:27] <odinho> Mm.
  284. # [11:27] <marcosc> jgraham: it should be optional
  285. # [11:27] <jgraham> AlarmManager.add(data, {respectTimezone:false, data:[]})
  286. # [11:28] <odinho> Coolest kids use that these days.
  287. # [11:28] <odinho> It's in IDB
  288. # [11:28] <odinho> why double data?
  289. # [11:28] <marcosc> IDB is hated by all the kids
  290. # [11:28] <jgraham> odinho: Those two sentences don't agree :)
  291. # [11:28] <odinho> ah, you misspelled date
  292. # [11:28] <jgraham> Yeah
  293. # [11:28] <odinho> IDB is cool, man.
  294. # [11:28] <jgraham> date as a required parameter
  295. # [11:29] <jgraham> and the bool as an optional, named, parameter
  296. # [11:29] <marcosc> check all the hate at the bottom of http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/indexeddb/todo/http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/indexeddb/todo/
  297. # [11:29] <marcosc> http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/indexeddb/todo/
  298. # [11:29] <marcosc> even
  299. # [11:29] <jgraham> Or at least as some fake due to js deficiencies in this area
  300. # [11:31] <marcosc> seems like bad design in IDB that you have to wrap all your operations in a function, leads to a lot of bloat and you can't write the code atomically (e.g., in the browser's JS console)
  301. # [11:32] <jgraham> Well it has to be async
  302. # [11:32] <marcosc> yes, I get that. But setting event handlers after you start an operation seems a bit ... um... strange
  303. # [11:33] <jgraham> Well
  304. # [11:33] <jgraham> It makes sense if you understand the model
  305. # [11:33] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  306. # [11:33] <jgraham> Doesn't mean that it couldn't be better of course
  307. # [11:34] <jgraham> But I'm not sure what you are proposing as better
  308. # [11:34] <marcosc> Don't get me wrong, I get the model. It's just assumes that the code is all self contained in a file.
  309. # [11:35] <marcosc> jgraham: true, I'm not really proposing anything I guess. I guess most people would expect making, for instance, and OpenDBRequest (onsucces, onfail set), and then OpenRequst.open()
  310. # [11:36] <marcosc> OpenDBRequest even
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  312. # [11:36] <marcosc> instead of function(){ ... do a bunch of DB stuff ...}();
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  315. # [11:37] <marcosc> the above takes all the fun out of async programming
  316. # [11:38] <marcosc> because it forces the actual javascript to be programmed as if it is sync by needing to wrap everything in a function
  317. # [11:40] <marcosc> Anyhooo
  318. # [11:40] <odinho> I prefer how it is now to that. :-)
  319. # [11:40] <marcosc> why is that?
  320. # [11:42] <jgraham> The callback style does tend to lead to spaghetti. And isn't really a pattern in the platform.
  321. # [11:42] <jgraham> Maybe you could make something based on promises
  322. # [11:42] <marcosc> promises would be nice
  323. # [11:42] <jgraham> Which would at least flatten out the spagetti
  324. # [11:42] <odinho> It is promises now, is it not?
  325. # [11:43] <jgraham> It's event based now isn't it?
  326. # [11:43] <marcosc> I thought it was all strings and no booleans?
  327. # [11:44] <marcosc> It's events by the looks of it
  328. # [11:44] <odinho> Yeah events, -- I didn't think they excluded eachother.
  329. # [11:44] <odinho> Promises work on top of events, do they not?
  330. # [11:45] <jgraham> Well, maybe given an event api you can write a promised, based API
  331. # [11:45] <jgraham> I'm not sure
  332. # [11:45] <marcosc> I'm not sure either
  333. # [11:45] <jgraham> But they are not identical at least
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  360. # [12:53] <annevk> Man that spec is poorly written :(
  361. # [12:53] <annevk> http://sysapps.github.com/sysapps/proposals/alarm/Overview.html that is
  362. # [12:53] <marcosc> it's only a FPWD
  363. # [12:53] <marcosc> but yeah
  364. # [12:54] <marcosc> annevk: do you have any opinions about the whole http://sysapps.github.com/sysapps/proposals/alarm/Overview.html#interface-alarmrequest
  365. # [12:54] * Joins: lloydhuang (~lloyd@60-249-133-212.HINET-IP.hinet.net)
  366. # [12:54] <annevk> Apart from it not being written properly?
  367. # [12:54] <marcosc> yeah
  368. # [12:54] <annevk> getAll() has the wrong signature
  369. # [12:55] <marcosc> Look at that AlarmRequest thing
  370. # [12:55] <annevk> enums should not use camelcase
  371. # [12:55] <marcosc> It's like a bad mix of events and callbacks
  372. # [12:56] <annevk> It's just events no?
  373. # [12:56] <marcosc> except for the error attribute
  374. # [12:56] <annevk> Except they're using some ancient syntax to declare event handlers
  375. # [12:56] <marcosc> yeah, just ignore that
  376. # [12:56] <marcosc> that's easy to update
  377. # [12:56] <marcosc> I'm about to do a pull request and fix all those
  378. # [12:57] <marcosc> I'm more concerned about the whole AlarmRequest model
  379. # [12:57] <marcosc> and the fact that this adds yet another database to the web platform
  380. # [12:57] <marcosc> (well, at least it tries to)
  381. # [12:57] <karlcow> :)
  382. # [12:57] <karlcow> one db for all
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  384. # [12:58] <marcosc> sure, why not :)
  385. # [12:58] <karlcow> (my precious)
  386. # [12:58] <annevk> marcosc: I just looked at it high-level, actually reviewing would take more time
  387. # [12:59] <marcosc> annevk: fair enough
  388. # [12:59] * Joins: richt (~richt@cpc15-gran4-2-0-cust9.12-1.cable.virginmedia.com)
  389. # [12:59] <annevk> marcosc: maybe slightlyoff can yell at them so we don't have to :)
  390. # [12:59] <marcosc> heh, that would be nice :)
  391. # [13:01] <annevk> Hmm, need to install XCode again forgot about that
  392. # [13:01] <annevk> kinda happy I wrote that blog post now
  393. # [13:02] <marcosc> new mac, eh? Always fun :)
  394. # [13:02] <annevk> yeah and it's awesome
  395. # [13:02] <annevk> have to get used to not rebooting it all the time
  396. # [13:03] <marcosc> My main motivation for trying to get to the TAG meeting is so I can go shopping at the Mac Store :)
  397. # [13:03] <marcosc> So much cheaper in the US
  398. # [13:04] <annevk> Would be nice to say hi too :)
  399. # [13:06] <annevk> What's the canonical URL for Opera Nightly?
  400. # [13:06] <jgraham> There isn't one, I don't think
  401. # [13:07] <jgraham> I mean there is the desktop team blog
  402. # [13:07] <annevk> doh http://www.opera.com/browser/next/
  403. # [13:07] <annevk> or is that not it?
  404. # [13:07] <jgraham> Well yeah
  405. # [13:07] <jgraham> But that isn't always the actual latest version
  406. # [13:07] <marcosc> annevk: I usually just go to the desktop blog
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  446. # [15:28] <annevk> Hmm, to install Anolis I need to have hg?
  447. # [15:28] <annevk> Maybe Anolis should move to GitHub
  448. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: you gotta have hg to build firefox
  449. # [15:33] <annevk> babysteps
  450. # [15:33] <darobin> putting Anolis on GH would certainly be nicer
  451. # [15:34] <darobin> for one it would make it possible to have it in a submodule when it's a dependency
  452. # [15:34] <jgraham> You can get Mozilla on git also these days
  453. # [15:34] <jgraham> You might need hg to commit
  454. # [15:35] <jgraham> https://github.com/mozilla/mozilla-central
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  456. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> jgraham: oh didn't know
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  467. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> so btw it seems we are definitely going to have a WebApps WG meetup on April 25 and 26 in California
  468. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> and HTML WG on 23 and 24
  469. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> and I think WebAppSec on 23 and 24 as well
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  471. # [15:56] <Ms2ger> annevk, so you're becoming lead editor for sysapps?
  472. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> 'git push origin master:gh-pages' to push current master /wo extra local gh-pages branch
  473. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> dinnet know you could do that
  474. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/jviereck/status/299032009156726784
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  476. # [16:01] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The git bit or the github bit?
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  478. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> git bit
  479. # [16:01] <jgraham> Ah
  480. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> can you use that locally too?
  481. # [16:02] <jgraham> You can even write HEAD instaed of master to push the head of the working branch. Or any random SHA1
  482. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> ok
  483. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> d'oh forget what I asked about locally
  484. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> obviously not relevant for push 'ing
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  510. # [16:49] <zewt> eh, is there really no way to tell box-shadow to draw the whole shadow and not cut out the box
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  523. # [17:19] <kerozene> I wish. would make transparent borders more fun
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  528. # [17:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: euh no :)
  529. # [17:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: trying to fix a bug in DOM
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  531. # [17:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: but the meetings slow me down
  532. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> Heh
  533. # [17:29] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74)
  534. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> And if you don't go there, they just have you do attrexodus :)
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  536. # [17:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: exactly, we assign action items to pseudonymous external contributors
  537. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> Damn you all! :)
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  543. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> Hmm, CSS discussing <!--/--> in style sheets
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  545. # [17:55] <annevk> Ms2ger: what's there to discuss?
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  548. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> Whether they're allowed in variables, aiui
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  552. # [18:01] <annevk> Good times
  553. # [18:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: so uh, put Anolis under WHATWG?
  554. # [18:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: then I won't have to install hg
  555. # [18:02] * annevk has reached the point where Anolis is the bottleneck
  556. # [18:03] * annevk decides to not let Ms2ger be a bottleneck
  557. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> wfm :)
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  564. # [18:14] <annevk> Hmm, how can installing command line tools possibly fail?
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  570. # [18:32] <annevk> oh yes
  571. # [18:32] <annevk> it works
  572. # [18:32] <annevk> why o why did /usr/local/bin become permission denied?
  573. # [18:32] <annevk> so weird
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  580. # [18:41] <hsivonen> has the SETTINGS: prefer-online thing always been there for app cache?
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  582. # [18:42] <hsivonen> I don't see prefer-online on MXR. strongly suggests we don't support it
  583. # [18:42] <hsivonen> does Chrome?
  584. # [18:44] <hsivonen> not found in https://mxr.mozilla.org/chromium/search?string=prefer-online either
  585. # [18:44] <hsivonen> so is the SETTINGS part of the spec fiction?
  586. # [18:45] <hsivonen> ah. it was not always there: http://labs.ft.com/2012/07/prefer-online-not-so-much/
  587. # [18:46] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  588. # [18:49] <hsivonen> we really need spec edits to start with red background that fades to white over time
  589. # [18:50] <hsivonen> so that you could tell new fiction from real stuff
  590. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> What colour would the navigation stuff be? :)
  591. # [18:51] <annevk> Ms2ger: go create Attr objects :p
  592. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> That's on my todo list for tomorrow ;)
  593. # [18:53] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  594. # [18:53] <hsivonen> does IE10 support prefer-online?
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  607. # [19:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: sweet
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  609. # [19:13] <hsivonen> whoa whoa. Hixie basically advocates news sites and blogs to become Ajax apps instead of traditionally crawlable pages in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14702#c20
  610. # [19:16] <nimbu> hsivonen: are you gawker.com
  611. # [19:18] <hsivonen> nimbu: no, but what Hixie advocated in that bug is pretty shocking considering how people who try to use the app cache disagree
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  614. # [19:22] <hsivonen> did IE10 extend app cache somehow?
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  616. # [19:25] <hsivonen> :-( https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14702#c31
  617. # [19:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have a proposed set of changes to HTTP cache management that would address all the online acceleration use cases app cache is used for?
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  619. # [19:29] <hsivonen> in the Client-Hints case, the person proposing it is a server module dev and has an HTTP hammer
  620. # [19:29] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah IE has extensions
  621. # [19:29] <hsivonen> but then in most other cases, devs want non-HTTP solutions, because HTTP headers are too hard
  622. # [19:30] <hsivonen> (though Client-Hints is a request header and response headers are too hard)
  623. # [19:30] <hsivonen> annevk: I didn't find them on MSDN. URL?
  624. # [19:30] <hsivonen> the prefer-online thing is so sad
  625. # [19:31] <hsivonen> it should be prefer-online-if-newer-than: 5min
  626. # [19:31] <annevk> I think you can find them in W3C Bugzilla
  627. # [19:31] <annevk> a WONTFIXed bug somewhere
  628. # [19:33] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&list_id=4905&short_desc=appcache&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=CLOSED&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr
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  635. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> OH: "Bert resisting"
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  678. # [21:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: um, no. i advocate _applications_ with data to be ajaxified.
  679. # [21:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: in general if you could just assume i'm not an idiot and interpret my statements in that light, that would help :-)
  680. # [21:18] * jgraham isn't clear what's an application and what's a document
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  682. # [21:18] <jgraham> e.g. is the new blogger an application or a document?
  683. # [21:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: well, it's a continuum
  684. # [21:18] <esprehn> jgraham: number of bytes of JS ;)
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  686. # [21:19] <jgraham> esprehn: In that case it's an application for sure :)
  687. # [21:19] <Hixie> but generally speaking, a document is something that you give to other people to read, whereas an application is something that you log into to edit data
  688. # [21:20] <Hixie> er, s/hsivonen/jgraham/ in my most recent use of "hsivonen"
  689. # [21:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: dunno if it solves everything, but https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20083 is one proposal.
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  693. # [21:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: for reasons i don't understand, the main people interested in appcache keep doing things in f2f meetings and the like instead of commenting on the whatwg list
  694. # [21:21] <Hixie> (or any other public list for that matter)
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  700. # [21:26] <jgraham> Yes, I feel totally out of the loop on app-cache
  701. # [21:26] <jgraham> But on the other hand
  702. # [21:26] <jgraham> It seems fitting that all the discussions are happening off line
  703. # [21:26] <esprehn_> have things changed in app cache?
  704. # [21:26] <Hixie> hah
  705. # [21:27] <Hixie> esprehn_: not in the last few days
  706. # [21:27] <Hixie> i think medium term the next news on appcache will be some sort of generic network-layer filter
  707. # [21:28] <Hixie> that runs JS in its own thread and can respond to requests either by passing them through, or generating files, or getting files from a cache
  708. # [21:28] <Hixie> the biggest thing blocking that, i think, is lack of a good place to store files
  709. # [21:30] <jgraham> Woah
  710. # [21:30] <jgraham> That sounds scary
  711. # [21:30] <Hixie> that's what https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20083 is about
  712. # [21:31] <esprehn_> This has come up several times internally at Google
  713. # [21:32] <esprehn_> no one wants a manifest file, you want to be able to say "requests to http://xxx.com/ should go to a worker instead"
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  715. # [21:32] <jgraham> Bugzilla makes it very easy to not know about these conversations
  716. # [21:32] <Hixie> esprehn_, jgraham: yeah, i keep telling people to post to the whatwg list
  717. # [21:33] <Hixie> the only public discussion i was able to get was that brain dump in the bug
  718. # [21:33] <jgraham> It explains why the whatwg list is so quiet these days
  719. # [21:33] <Hixie> we're not going to get anywhere until people can discuss this publicly
  720. # [21:33] <jgraham> If everyone is ghettoising
  721. # [21:34] <esprehn_> Hixie: I'll see if I can dig up our diagram from the architecture for that
  722. # [21:34] <jgraham> Anyway, without reading any of the bug, I wonder if this will avoid the problems of autoproxy
  723. # [21:34] <esprehn_> Hixie: you need magic for things like HttpOnly cookies to work
  724. # [21:34] <jgraham> Not that I remember exactly what those problems *are*
  725. # [21:35] <jgraham> But obviously badly behaved scripts can be problematic if they block network reqiests
  726. # [21:35] <jgraham> *requests
  727. # [21:35] <jgraham> (maybe this is less problematic if it is same-origin only)
  728. # [21:35] <Hixie> esprehn_: what's really needed is just a description of the problems we're trying to solve. even the brain dump in the bug is mostly talking about solutions, not problems.
  729. # [21:36] <Hixie> jgraham: this would be on a worker thread, and same-origin only.
  730. # [21:36] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  731. # [21:36] <Hixie> jgraham: (or rather, per-origin; i suppose an origin can provide a worker for when it's accessed from another?)
  732. # [21:36] <esprehn_> Hixie: I'll see if I can gather my notes from the discussions. There were just more pressing things at the time like Web Components
  733. # [21:36] <Hixie> jgraham: so you couldn't really do anything you can't do already on the server, in terms of harm.
  734. # [21:37] <jgraham> Yeah, being in a worker helps of cource since you can't block the event loop
  735. # [21:37] <esprehn_> effectively you want a persistent worker per origin, perhaps with some path prefixing logic
  736. # [21:38] <esprehn_> You run into issues with http://www.google.com/calendar/ and /images/ and other apps. They each need their own.
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  740. # [21:41] <Hixie> the biggest problem i see is how to bootstrap without adding latency for first load yet without making first load avoid using the worker...
  741. # [21:41] <Hixie> the obvious way is to send a header with the request that says "if you recognise this, then instead of sending me back the page, send me back the worker", but you still add at least one RTT to the cost
  742. # [21:42] <Hixie> (and you add a header, which is itself bad)
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  744. # [21:42] <esprehn_> what's the issue with the header?
  745. # [21:43] <Hixie> you have to send it on every request, so it costs global bandwidth; plus it adds a fingerprinting bit, plus it runs compat risks
  746. # [21:43] <Hixie> i guess the fingerprinting bit in this case would be correlated with the UA string so it wouldn't add a whole bit
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  748. # [21:44] <esprehn_> heh, stick it on favicon
  749. # [21:44] <Hixie> wouldn't solve the path problem
  750. # [21:44] <esprehn_> sorry, which path problem?
  751. # [21:44] <Hixie> the one you mentioned, /calendar vs /mail
  752. # [21:44] <Hixie> nor does it solve the RTT issue
  753. # [21:45] <esprehn_> well, the header could specify which path it pertains to
  754. # [21:46] <esprehn_> or a table of paths
  755. # [21:46] <Hixie> oh you mean a header on the response
  756. # [21:46] <Hixie> interesting
  757. # [21:46] <Hixie> i meant on the request
  758. # [21:46] <esprehn_> ah no, the server should respond back with a table of delegates
  759. # [21:46] <Hixie> header on the response could work, though it still doesn't solve the RTT issue -- in fact it makes it worse
  760. # [21:47] <Hixie> now you have to do 3 RTTs to do what today uses just one
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  762. # [21:47] <esprehn_> 3?
  763. # [21:47] <Hixie> 4, i guess
  764. # [21:48] <esprehn_> we decided it was probably fine for first request to hit the server unless the worker was already running
  765. # [21:48] <Hixie> 1 for TCP handshake, 1 for getting the index file, which you then drop because you see the header with this script, one to get the script, and one to get the data.
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  767. # [21:48] <Hixie> well it would be pretty hard for the first request not to hit the server if you don't know about the worker :-P
  768. # [21:48] <esprehn_> right
  769. # [21:49] <esprehn_> I don't think you should need to pipe through the worker
  770. # [21:49] <Hixie> anyway, 4 RTTs just to get what today takes 2 is a big latency hit
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  773. # [21:49] <esprehn_> so it wouldn't be 4 RTTs
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  776. # [21:50] <esprehn_> you'd never "drop the current request", the header only applies to subsequent requests
  777. # [21:51] <Hixie> that's the "without making first load avoid using the worker" problem i was trying to solve
  778. # [21:51] <Hixie> it's pretty horrible to have a system where the very first time you try to use it, it doesn't work the way it's supposed to.
  779. # [21:51] <Hixie> not that i see another solution, but it doesn't make it any less lame
  780. # [21:51] <esprehn_> yeah, I think it's a reasonable compromise
  781. # [21:52] <Hixie> compromises suck.
  782. # [21:52] <Hixie> :-)
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  786. # [21:53] <esprehn_> I don't know of any solution that isn't a compromise on the web
  787. # [21:53] <esprehn_> :)
  788. # [21:54] <Hixie> well, yeah
  789. # [21:54] <Hixie> but i keep hoping!
  790. # [21:54] <Hixie> one day!
  791. # [21:54] <Hixie> we shall solve a problem well!
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  793. # [21:54] <esprehn_> cupcakes and ponies!
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  813. # [22:20] <Hixie> is it just me or does this page not actually show the diff? https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/3d85bac87355240a433865ec56074a80c33a271d
  814. # [22:20] <Hixie> and how do i get to see the diff?
  815. # [22:22] <miketaylr> Hixie: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/3d85bac87355240a433865ec56074a80c33a271d.diff
  816. # [22:22] <miketaylr> add .diff?
  817. # [22:22] <Hixie> is there ui for that?
  818. # [22:22] <miketaylr> oh, dunno
  819. # [22:23] <Hixie> or are we supposed to divine it
  820. # [22:23] <Hixie> (thanks, btw)
  821. # [22:23] <gavinc> Hixie: it looks like github decided that was a binary file, thus the lack of diff showing up on the page
  822. # [22:24] <Hixie> i see
  823. # [22:24] <Hixie> poor file doesn't have a single 8th bit set anywhere, but ok github :-)
  824. # [22:24] <gavinc> I imagine it has a size trigger ;)
  825. # [22:24] <Hixie> (or at least my version doesn't, i guess it's possible the htmlwg's does)
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  827. # [22:24] <gavinc> Most source files aren't 5mb
  828. # [22:24] <Hixie> pah
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  845. # [22:45] <Hixie> two questions:
  846. # [22:45] <Hixie> (a) why doesn't https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm define the actual event processing model? or am i missing something?
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  848. # [22:46] <Hixie> (b) why doesn't it document the actually implemented 'mousewheel' event with wheelDelta, or am I missing something?
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  872. # [23:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yt?
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  877. # [23:29] <Hixie> MikeSmith: nm, i asked my question in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20068
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  882. # [23:41] <rillian> Hixie: re bug 20889, I think I'm misunderstanding how this section is written in general
  883. # [23:42] * Hixie looks
  884. # [23:42] <Hixie> ah
  885. # [23:42] <Hixie> one sec
  886. # [23:42] <rillian> I have the same question with srclang
  887. # [23:42] <Hixie> see http://whatwg.org/html/#how-to-read-this-specification :-)
  888. # [23:42] <rillian> is one a guide for authors and the other parsing instructions
  889. # [23:42] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  890. # [23:43] <Hixie> (ignore paragraph 1)
  891. # [23:43] <Hixie> (about reading it cover to cover)
  892. # [23:44] <rillian> :)
  893. # [23:44] <rillian> ok, that helps
  894. # [23:44] <Hixie> cool
  895. # [23:44] <rillian> I'm still unclear how one tells which is which
  896. # [23:44] <rillian> maybe IETF specs have warped my mind
  897. # [23:44] <Hixie> just read it literally
  898. # [23:45] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  899. # [23:45] <Hixie> if it says "it must be empty", then when you generate it, you make sure it's empty
  900. # [23:45] <Hixie> if it says "if it's not empty", then if it's not empty, you follow the requirement
  901. # [23:45] <Hixie> you don't reject anything unless it says "you must reject" or some such
  902. # [23:46] <Hixie> (i'm assuming you're writing a browser)
  903. # [23:46] <Hixie> (if you're writing an editor or conformance checker, it's different)
  904. # [23:48] <rillian> yes, browser in this case
  905. # [23:49] <rillian> ok, thanks for explaining
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  907. # [23:49] <Hixie> np. if it's still unclear don't hesitate to ask further.
  908. # [23:50] * Quits: danja (~danny@host43-207-dynamic.19-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: gorn)
  909. # [23:54] * Joins: gnarf (~gnarf@unaffiliated/gnarf)
  910. # [23:58] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@8.25.197.24) (Remote host closed the connection)
  911. # Session Close: Thu Feb 07 00:00:00 2013

The end :)