/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Feb 11 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:44] <zewt> i can't remember if i'm on my third or fourth mobile safari bug of the day
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  138. # [10:51] <annevk> Hixie: still awake by any chance?
  139. # [10:51] <annevk> Hixie: I think the time might have come to write Fetch
  140. # [10:51] <annevk> Hixie: not sure if this is years early or not, prolly is
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  142. # [10:53] <annevk> It seems likely we'll get a new API for XMLHttpRequest that uses Promises/Futures and given the changes suggested around application cache by Mozilla/Google having requests better architecturally defined seems like a good thing. Mostly because I don't like all the monkeypatching that others seem fine with.
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  145. # [11:08] <odinho> Yeah, fetch ftw :-)
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  147. # [11:09] <jgraham> So, did someone make the appcache proposal public yet, or are we still supposed to join a private club?
  148. # [11:10] <annevk> jgraham: slightlyoff's controller thing is still private I believe, mostly to make it somewhat coherent as I understand it
  149. # [11:10] <annevk> Personally I don't think there'd be much backslash against just having it public from the start, but I guess his experience differs from mine
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  151. # [11:11] <annevk> If you give him your GitHub ID though you should be fine
  152. # [11:12] <odinho> That's the joining of the private club-part is about :]
  153. # [11:12] <jgraham> I have no idea how being private helps make it coherent. He is of course welcome to ignore other people's input until the proposal is in a state that he is happy with, if he choses
  154. # [11:14] <jgraham> (my experience is that "too much feedback" is the opposite of the normal problem)
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  157. # [11:16] <annevk> jgraham: so is mine, but maybe things are different in TC39 land
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  162. # [11:36] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Model
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  168. # [11:47] <darobin> annevk: I was thinking about the "Fetch results in a network error response unless the scheme is one of..." bit in Fetch that we were chatting about
  169. # [11:48] <darobin> I reckon that if there's a controller that's not the default one it should decide whether to honour those itself
  170. # [11:48] <annevk> That's an interesting idea for sure
  171. # [11:48] <darobin> where by "those" I mean those not in that list
  172. # [11:49] <darobin> it's not that I have a super strong use case for that, but it introduces the possibility of a soft transition to a new scheme should one be needed
  173. # [11:49] <darobin> and it seems "sane"
  174. # [11:50] <annevk> It still leaves navigation as an open issue. Do you want to dispatch to an external application, or should that too defer to Fetch?
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  178. # [11:51] <annevk> So e.g. navigation handles javascript and for Fetch schemes it defers to Fetch, and for anything else it's OS/browser-specific
  179. # [11:51] <darobin> ideally you want to be able to say "if I don't handle this, defer to whatever the default is" which could well be an external app if there is one
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  182. # [11:53] * jgraham wonders how register*Handler fits into this
  183. # [11:54] <darobin> yeah I was wondering as well
  184. # [11:54] <darobin> I'm guessing that it is part of the default handling
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  186. # [11:54] <darobin> there are two distinct paths though
  187. # [11:54] <darobin> one is navigation, then fetch; the other is just fetch
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  189. # [11:55] <darobin> r*H only wire into navigation
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  191. # [11:55] <darobin> (unless I've missed something)
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  202. # [12:36] <annevk> That is correct
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  204. # [12:37] <annevk> I think we may have defined some of those features too quickly given the underlying architecture is not fully fleshed out.
  205. # [12:37] <annevk> Of course the same is bound to happen with this Controller proposal
  206. # [12:37] <hsivonen> who is the expected audience for Glenn Adams' TLS analogy?
  207. # [12:38] <hsivonen> the W3C Team?
  208. # [12:39] <Ms2ger> He still has an audience?
  209. # [12:42] <annevk> Is this on public-html?
  210. # [12:42] <hsivonen> annevk: -admin, I think
  211. # [12:42] <annevk> Why does that still have an audience? :-)
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  213. # [12:49] <Ms2ger> Or public-html itself, for that matter
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  215. # [12:56] * hsivonen wonders if real end users actually use the DLNA stuff
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  220. # [13:07] <annevk> The amount of variables that go into fetching a resource is kinda bloated: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Request
  221. # [13:07] <annevk> slightlyoff: ^^ at some point you might want to reconcile the controller stuff with that
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  225. # [13:11] <Stevef> Ms2ger: hehe
  226. # [13:15] <annevk> odinho: can you take a look to see it's about right?
  227. # [13:16] <annevk> (anyone else is welcome to do that too, of course)
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  232. # [13:24] <darobin> hahahahaha "<annevk> I think we may have defined some of those features too quickly given the underlying architecture is not fully fleshed out.
  233. # [13:24] <darobin> isn't that What We Do?
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  235. # [13:25] <darobin> hsivonen: people use DLNA stuff a little bit here and there when well constrained to a usable UI; so not much
  236. # [13:25] <darobin> I reckon Opera's proposal can actually help there
  237. # [13:25] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@76.14.87.162) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  238. # [13:25] <annevk> Well personally I have mostly been defining the underlying architecture and have not created many new features. And the features I did create were not that great (e.g. CORS).
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  241. # [13:27] * darobin fidgets around annevk to find the button to turn sardonic humour back on
  242. # [13:28] <annevk> URL is new of course, but I first figured out how they work. I will probably still have messed up though :-)
  243. # [13:28] <annevk> darobin: I see :-)
  244. # [13:29] <annevk> darobin: The problem is that I largely think that is what people are doing. They create all these APIs on top of something they do not actually comprehend, to solve a couple of use cases to some approximation.
  245. # [13:30] <odinho> annevk: Looks about right, although why do you say CORS is special in that it also needs this: <blabla>, and not just list it with everything else?
  246. # [13:31] <annevk> odinho: yeah, that should be merged in too in the big ugly blob that is Request
  247. # [13:31] <odinho> Won't win a beauty contest.
  248. # [13:31] <annevk> uhuh
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  251. # [13:38] <darobin> annevk: you are entirely right, it's what we've all been doing for too long
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  253. # [13:38] <darobin> that's why fixing the plumbing and not just working on the porcelain is useful
  254. # [13:38] <darobin> it's also why I think the general approach (warts nonwithstanding) taken for IDB was actually correct
  255. # [13:39] <annevk> Well if it was, we wouldn't be discussing Cache objects and such I think...
  256. # [13:40] <annevk> Storage is kind a different though, it's a new thing and there's not really any existing architecture it would hook into. That's different for navigation timing and APIs like that.
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  287. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> fwiw there's a W3C ebooks workshop in New York today. I assume it'll have an IRC channel
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  292. # [15:14] <slightlyoff> MikeSmith: adding you
  293. # [15:14] <slightlyoff> annevk: thanks
  294. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> thanks make
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  296. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> thanks *man
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  304. # [15:23] <hsivonen> hmm. I the BBC rep the first one to state that it's their requirement that the CDM behind EME constitude an effective technical protection measure for legal purposes?
  305. # [15:23] <hsivonen> not that anyone would be surprised by that being a requirement, but did it really take this long for someone who wants EME to say it?
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  308. # [15:26] <hsivonen> *costitute
  309. # [15:26] <hsivonen> s/I/Is/
  310. # [15:29] <slightlyoff> can someone unpack the "EME" acronym for me?
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  312. # [15:31] <hsivonen> slightlyoff: Encrypted Media Extensions
  313. # [15:31] <hsivonen> slightlyoff: It's the Microsoft/Google/Netflix API for bootstrapping DRM
  314. # [15:33] <slightlyoff> thanks
  315. # [15:33] <slightlyoff> got it...I know the API, didn't have the acronym
  316. # [15:36] <jgraham> hsivonen: Where did the BBC person say that?
  317. # [15:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: public-html-admin
  318. # [15:41] <annevk> slightlyoff: so I'm getting the sense that Future is more or less complete at this point, before adding it to DOM however, I think we should fly it by TC39 to see how much they'll change it because ending up with 2 APIs (on top of DOMRequest which is already going around) would be bad
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  321. # [15:41] <slightlyoff> annevk: DOMRequest needs to be re-worked as a simple sub-class
  322. # [15:42] <annevk> slightlyoff: if we keep DOMRequest, is it really worth it to also have DOMFuture?
  323. # [15:42] <slightlyoff> I'm assuming that there will be many DOMFuture subclasses to fill in semantics for specific APIs that aren't in DOMFuture
  324. # [15:43] <slightlyoff> annevk: see what I did with the ProgressFuture
  325. # [15:43] <slightlyoff> annevk: also, what do you think about the name "EventedFuture" isntead of "DOMFuture"?
  326. # [15:43] <annevk> sure, but DOMRequest is what DOMFuture is
  327. # [15:43] <slightlyoff> where's the spec for that?
  328. # [15:43] <annevk> slightlyoff: EventFuture then
  329. # [15:43] * slightlyoff hangs ignorance out to dry for everyone else to see
  330. # [15:44] <annevk> slightlyoff: dunno where DOMRequest's spec is, mounir might know
  331. # [15:44] <darobin> I thought DOMRequest was just specified as a comment in a bugzilla somewhere...
  332. # [15:45] <annevk> Yeah could be. It's Mozilla's currently somewhat crappy version of promises
  333. # [15:45] <annevk> But per mounir it could be elevated to the feature set of DOMFuture
  334. # [15:45] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@115.112.111.246) (Quit: Leaving)
  335. # [15:45] <darobin> ah, no, it's been "formalised" https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/DOM/DOMRequest
  336. # [15:46] <darobin> last I checked they'd just designed it on a napkin, I don't think they'd mind having an improved version
  337. # [15:46] <slightlyoff> readyState needs to die in a fire
  338. # [15:46] <darobin> a slow, painful one, please
  339. # [15:46] <slightlyoff> ok, so yeah...I think we can supplant this if we have spec author buy-in
  340. # [15:46] <slightlyoff> who do I need to talk to about DOMRequest?
  341. # [15:47] <darobin> Jonas or Mounir I would guess
  342. # [15:47] <darobin> annevk: how about EventfulFuture? :)
  343. # [15:47] <annevk> slightlyoff: mounir
  344. # [15:47] <slightlyoff> darobin: Evented says "this is a future with events"
  345. # [15:47] <jgraham> May you live in Eventful times?
  346. # [15:48] <annevk> darobin: yes they mind
  347. # [15:48] <slightlyoff> darobin: "Eventful" is a value judgement ;-)
  348. # [15:48] <annevk> darobin: otherwise I wouldn't be raising this
  349. # [15:48] <darobin> jgraham: I was precisely thinking of it as something to put in a cookie
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  351. # [15:48] <darobin> annevk: ah, I got the opposite impression, but that was from a while back — I guess they've started using it in more places now
  352. # [15:49] <darobin> and I also guess I should s/they/you/ :)
  353. # [15:50] <annevk> darobin: it also depends on who you talk to, since Mozilla, you know, yadayada
  354. # [15:50] <annevk> I personally don't care that much, but I don't really know the Firefox OS space that well; I just noticed that mounir does really care
  355. # [15:51] <darobin> well that's also our opening: right now it's only in FxOS
  356. # [15:51] <darobin> and is only returned by mozPrefixed things (I would fucking hope)
  357. # [15:52] <darobin> so there's still time to change it
  358. # [15:53] <annevk> We don't prefix everything anymore. I suggest you read up on hsivonen's writing on the matter.
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  361. # [15:56] <annevk> slightlyoff: yeah, it was so weird that people kept naming state readyState
  362. # [15:57] <annevk> slightlyoff: I argued a few times against it, and people were like "but readyState is there..."
  363. # [15:57] <annevk> slightlyoff: not to mention the horrible integer-based constants
  364. # [15:57] <zewt> how ready are you? 71!
  365. # [15:58] <annevk> over 9000!
  366. # [15:58] <zewt> my favorite is how even this last year i still had to define readystate constants since opera apparently didn't have them
  367. # [15:58] <zewt> (for xhr)
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  369. # [16:00] <volkmar> darobin, annevk, slightlyoff: there is kind of a spec for DOMRequest here: http://mounirlamouri.github.com/sysapps/proposals/RunTime-Security/Overview.html#domrequest-interface
  370. # [16:00] <volkmar> quickly written though
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  372. # [16:01] <zewt> "However, this callback mechanism makes the code barely readable"? really? heh
  373. # [16:02] <zewt> a common interface would make it easier to write a wrapper that says "call this callback when all of these things have finished", which currently takes per-interface work
  374. # [16:02] <volkmar> darobin, annevk, slightlyoff: regarding DOMRequest vs DOMFuture, my feeling is that the main advantage of DOMFuture compared to a Future type in ECMAScript is that DOMFuture could be used by current APIs that have a similar mechanism
  375. # [16:02] <darobin> annevk: I thought that the API stuff in FxOS was prefixed (early looks certainly seemed to indicate so)
  376. # [16:02] <volkmar> like IndexedDB
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  378. # [16:03] <volkmar> the main differences between IDBRequest/DOMRequest and DOMFuture are some names (result vs value, success vs accept, error vs reject)
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  380. # [16:03] <annevk> volkmar: so now you're volkmar again; do you have the same confusing policy as odinho?
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  399. # [16:04] <volkmar> ?
  400. # [16:04] <annevk> darobin: most of it might be, sure, but there's no guarantees
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  402. # [16:04] <annevk> volkmar: I thought started using mounir as nick
  403. # [16:04] <annevk> you /\
  404. # [16:05] <volkmar> annevk: I'm using volkmar on freenode, mostly for historical reasons, I should change though
  405. # [16:06] <jgraham> You're mounir?
  406. # [16:06] <volkmar> yes, I am
  407. # [16:06] <jgraham> Every day is a new surprise
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  409. # [16:06] <jgraham> (usually bad)
  410. # [16:06] <jgraham> (so this was quite OK by comparison)
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  415. # [16:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: can you create a Fetch component inside WHATWG on W3C Bugzilla?
  416. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> yup
  417. # [16:17] <annevk> grand
  418. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: you the assignee?
  419. # [16:18] <annevk> afraid so
  420. # [16:19] <annevk> Unless anyone else here wants to volunteer to maintain CORS and HTML fetch for the next decade?
  421. # [16:19] * MikeSmith doesn't raise his hand
  422. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: you got a draft yet?
  423. # [16:20] <annevk> no, just bugs :)
  424. # [16:20] <annevk> actually
  425. # [16:20] <annevk> it'll replace fetch.spec.whatwg.org if you meant to get a URL for the thing
  426. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> I just need a URL for now, so that's fine
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  429. # [16:33] <odinho> annevk: Since I got a laptop, I'm always odinho_home now. :P
  430. # [16:34] <odinho> annevk: So to reduce the confusion of Ms2ger who thought I was always at home (Velmont on freenode), I renamed the home account to odinho now.
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  433. # [16:44] <annevk> odinho: certainly helps having a single nick
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  435. # [16:53] <odinho> annevk: I had a single nick back in the olden' days before University :-)
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  437. # [16:59] <jgraham> darobin: Nice, but you should have included unapproved tests
  438. # [17:00] <jgraham> That would give you 200-ish microdata tests, among others
  439. # [17:00] <Ms2ger> jgraham, no, you guys should submit them ;)
  440. # [17:00] * Ms2ger wanders off
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  443. # [17:01] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I'm really not that excited about spending time rearranging tests when darobin already has a script to help
  444. # [17:01] <jgraham> (and Opera won't pay me to do it :( )
  445. # [17:03] <darobin> jgraham: I don't want to take unapproved tests into account, taking those into account involves submitting them properly :)
  446. # [17:03] <jgraham> That is very silly
  447. # [17:03] <darobin> jgraham: I have a script to help, but it needs human guidance
  448. # [17:03] <jgraham> ]The "approved" tests were no better than the unapproved ones
  449. # [17:03] <darobin> yes but they're not in the right places
  450. # [17:03] <darobin> I want to get them in the right places
  451. # [17:04] <jgraham> The *only* real distinction was that Kris had copied some of them over to approved/ but not others
  452. # [17:04] <darobin> jgraham: if you can go through the submissions from Opera and tell me which of those tests go where, I'm happy to do the grunt work with my scripts and all
  453. # [17:04] <darobin> yeah, but we're moving away from that way of doing things — now we have a review process :)
  454. # [17:05] <darobin> if you tell me "all in that dir go with that section, all those there go yonder, etc." I'll do the work
  455. # [17:05] <darobin> it's figuring out where to move stuff that takes me time
  456. # [17:05] <darobin> I want to kill that "submissions" directory eventually
  457. # [17:05] <darobin> please help me kill it!
  458. # [17:05] <darobin> and tell Lars-Erik that you should be paid to do that
  459. # [17:06] <darobin> paid extra time even
  460. # [17:06] <darobin> and fed with those delicious Ikea cookies
  461. # [17:06] <jgraham> Hah
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  463. # [17:07] <darobin> he did say he was going to task you guys on this
  464. # [17:07] <darobin> just pretend he told you by way of me :)
  465. # [17:07] <jgraham> Dude, those aren't cookies, they're essential components of the furniture
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  467. # [17:08] <jgraham> https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/microdata is fairly straightforward to place
  468. # [17:08] <jgraham> Since there is one file
  469. # [17:08] <jgraham> and it covers "microdata"
  470. # [17:08] <darobin> ok, that much I can manage
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  472. # [17:09] <jgraham> annevk: https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/classList looks like one for you?
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  476. # [17:10] <annevk> I would never have used tabs
  477. # [17:10] <annevk> or linked to TR/
  478. # [17:10] <annevk> or used type=""
  479. # [17:10] <jgraham> annevk: I know you didn't *write* it
  480. # [17:11] <annevk> oh
  481. # [17:11] <jgraham> I mean it's for the DOM spec, not HTML
  482. # [17:11] <annevk> I see, Ms2ger handles that
  483. # [17:11] <darobin> jgraham: that microdata test, does it cover just the DOM stuff or the whole spec?
  484. # [17:11] <annevk> I'm in the camp that thinks all tests should be in one repo
  485. # [17:12] * darobin agrees with annevk
  486. # [17:12] <jgraham> Well I am happy for them to all be in one repo
  487. # [17:12] <darobin> ms2ger should just create a dom directory there and put all the DOM tests in there
  488. # [17:12] <jgraham> But at the moment if you are collecting DOM tests you should take that one
  489. # [17:12] <jgraham> and if you are not, you should be
  490. # [17:12] <darobin> just move it in the repo!
  491. # [17:13] * darobin points jgraham at his question from above
  492. # [17:13] <jgraham> darobin: I don't see how it would work without also depending on 5.2
  493. # [17:13] <jgraham> (in the WhatWG spec ofc)
  494. # [17:14] <darobin> I'm just asking because I don't want to bother reading them if I don't have to :)
  495. # [17:14] <darobin> so I'll take that as "Yes"
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  497. # [17:15] <annevk> jgraham: I should be managing tests?
  498. # [17:15] <annevk> jgraham: hmm
  499. # [17:15] <jgraham> annevk: Well someone should be
  500. # [17:15] <annevk> Can I use the I'm not paid to do that card?
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  502. # [17:16] <annevk> jgraham: Ms2ger is managing tests afaik
  503. # [17:16] <annevk> jgraham: and actively creating new tests
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  506. # [17:16] <jgraham> I have no idea why https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/documentwrite has a few random tests
  507. # [17:16] <jgraham> annevk: Oh well then you should tell Ms2ger about that test when he's around ;)
  508. # [17:16] <darobin> Ms2ger: review for you: https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/24
  509. # [17:17] <darobin> jgraham: you see why it's taking a while to move these things around?
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  511. # [17:18] <jgraham> darobin: I believe everything in https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/historyinterface is for #the-history-interface
  512. # [17:21] <jgraham> https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/html5lib/tests goes in the obvious place, but note that some/all of those already seem to be there
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  516. # [17:21] <darobin> ms2ger: and https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/25 (you can blame jgraham for these)
  517. # [17:21] <annevk> When should we add new Text() and such?
  518. # [17:22] <darobin> now?
  519. # [17:22] <annevk> Yeah, now seems about right
  520. # [17:22] <jgraham> Also those html5lib tests run in 3 different modes
  521. # [17:22] <annevk> the only one that's problematic is new Element and I'll just defer that
  522. # [17:22] <jgraham> No idea how to represent that
  523. # [17:22] <darobin> isn't new Node() a problem?
  524. # [17:23] <annevk> darobin: oh yes, I'm not going up the chain; there won't be new CharacterData either
  525. # [17:23] <darobin> ah, good to hear
  526. # [17:23] <darobin> I was afraid there'd be all that new stuff
  527. # [17:23] <annevk> are you punning?
  528. # [17:23] <darobin> haha
  529. # [17:23] <darobin> actually I wasn't
  530. # [17:24] <jgraham> #htmloptionscollection-0 for https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/htmloptionscollection
  531. # [17:24] <darobin> at some point slightlyoff was arguing that all should be constructible — I was concerned that he may have convinced you
  532. # [17:24] <darobin> jgraham: may I introduce you to a few nice git commands that I know of?
  533. # [17:24] <slightlyoff> darobin: wait, what *shouldn't* be constructable?
  534. # [17:24] <jgraham> darobin: I am happily using git over irc :p
  535. # [17:25] <slightlyoff> darobin: non-constructable is insane from a JS perspective
  536. # [17:25] <jgraham> Oh no
  537. # [17:25] * jgraham hides
  538. # [17:25] <annevk> slightlyoff: Node, CharacterData
  539. # [17:25] <annevk> slightlyoff: Element prolly too
  540. # [17:25] <slightlyoff> ok, so those are like Mixins
  541. # [17:25] <darobin> oh dear me, I should never have awakened that debate again
  542. # [17:25] <jgraham> slightlyoff: In this case abstract base classes
  543. # [17:25] <slightlyoff> or abstract classes
  544. # [17:25] <annevk> slightlyoff: yup
  545. # [17:25] <slightlyoff> but if it's a concrete class....
  546. # [17:25] <annevk> slightlyoff: the concrete ones I'm gonna work on right now
  547. # [17:25] <slightlyoff> and anyway, in JS, even your "abstract" classes are constructable
  548. # [17:25] <slightlyoff> even if they don't return anything sane
  549. # [17:26] <slightlyoff> annevk: +1 to that
  550. # [17:26] <jgraham> darobin: https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/loading_web_pages/browsing_the_web/unloading_documents/document_open is conveniently arranged by spec section already :)
  551. # [17:26] <annevk> the abstract ones I rather not as it would require changes all over DOM code to not break existing assumptions
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  553. # [17:26] <darobin> jgraham: if you're going through the entire list at some point I'd appreciate that being dumped in email rather than IRC
  554. # [17:27] <jgraham> darobin: No, I was doing the easy cases
  555. # [17:27] <jgraham> I have absolutely no idea how the dnd tests should be arranged for example
  556. # [17:28] <jgraham> Or media tests
  557. # [17:29] <darobin> well, let me rephrase
  558. # [17:29] <jgraham> darobin: #custom-handlers for https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/registerhandler/js
  559. # [17:29] <darobin> if you see a longerish list of ones that you know the answer to, at some point please switch to email :)
  560. # [17:29] <darobin> not necessarily *all* of them
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  563. # [17:30] <jgraham> script_scheduling: each test covers about 3 different sections of the spec and cvarious other specs and some things that are unspecified :)
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  565. # [17:31] <jgraham> https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/timeelement #the-time-element
  566. # [17:32] <annevk> Hmm, DocumentType?
  567. # [17:32] <annevk> DocumentType is useless
  568. # [17:34] <jgraham> darobin: I guess the onerror ones are something like #runtime-script-errors but I'm not sure
  569. # [17:34] <jgraham> That's all the ones that are easy
  570. # [17:34] <darobin> jgraham: thanks!
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  573. # [17:44] <darobin> jgraham: while you're around, could you prod people internally at Opera to get the remaining mappings?
  574. # [17:44] <darobin> e.g. prodding some internal list or whatnot
  575. # [17:44] <darobin> it would be most helpful
  576. # [17:44] <darobin> just the mappings like you've given me is enough
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  578. # [17:46] <annevk> ProcessingInstruction? Erring on it being useless too
  579. # [17:47] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  580. # [17:49] <slightlyoff> OH HAI dglazkov
  581. # [17:50] <jgraham> There is no actual evidence that's anything more than a bot :)
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  590. # [18:02] <darobin> annevk: only PHP hackers use PIs; I reckon that's a good reason not to support them :)
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  595. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> yeah I think it's not possible to break php any further than it has already broken itself
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  599. # [18:17] <annevk> Next: Range
  600. # [18:27] <darobin> ooh, there are nice things to do with Range
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  603. # [18:29] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
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  607. # [18:35] <annevk> Nobody replied to my request for argument versions so it's just a simple one for now
  608. # [18:35] <jgraham> argument versions?
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  611. # [18:36] <annevk> E.g. new Range(node, offset, node2, offset2)
  612. # [18:36] <annevk> Or new Range(rangeInit), or ...
  613. # [18:42] <slightlyoff> annevk: sorry, didn't see the thread
  614. # [18:42] <slightlyoff> annevk: what do the editing libraries do now?
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  616. # [18:42] <annevk> don't know, Range hasn't really been my terrain
  617. # [18:43] <slightlyoff> (also, would offset allow a "-" prefix to offset backwards from the end?)
  618. # [18:43] <slightlyoff> i.e., new Range(node, 10, node2, -5);
  619. # [18:43] <annevk> currently setEnd() does not allow such a thing
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  621. # [18:43] <slightlyoff> ...also terribly awkward
  622. # [18:43] <annevk> all range offsets are unsigned
  623. # [18:44] <annevk> oh yeah, I'm sure we'd do most of this better today :)
  624. # [18:46] <annevk> Not saying btw that we could not make those kind of changes, but we should probably fix the larger problems with editing first before tackling API convenience
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  627. # [18:49] <annevk> http://www.bullettrain.com/express.html looks kinda ugly. Does it exist, but then nice?
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  631. # [18:55] <Raymondo> "It is a complete Game Changer."
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  634. # [18:56] <annevk> I wish Apple would just sell them. Like a laptop without most of the other hardware :-)
  635. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> Raymondo: yeah, agreed about Windows 8
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  639. # [18:58] <smaug____> annevk: should range ctor take a dictionary
  640. # [18:58] <smaug____> so that one could initialize start/end points
  641. # [18:59] <annevk> smaug____: maybe, see also slightlyoff's comments above about supporting negative offsets
  642. # [18:59] <annevk> smaug____: if you have a concrete idea I can add it, spec-wise it's all rather trivial
  643. # [19:00] <smaug____> annevk: I don't see slightlyoff's comments in the bug
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  645. # [19:00] <smaug____> nor in the mailing list
  646. # [19:01] <smaug____> negative offsets... hmm, odd idea
  647. # [19:01] <smaug____> but perhaps there is some use case
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  652. # [19:10] <annevk> smaug____: I said above, as in this channel
  653. # [19:11] <smaug____> annevk: oops, I missed "above" :)
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  659. # [19:16] <smaug____> annevk: so, if there is no good usecase for negative, let's not do that now
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  661. # [19:16] <annevk> smaug____: well the use case is a more convenient API, no?
  662. # [19:17] <annevk> smaug____: if you want to count from the end
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  665. # [19:17] <smaug____> at least we could start with some dictionary which { startContainer: foo, startOffset: 123, ...}
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  667. # [19:18] <annevk> I wish we could have something shorter
  668. # [19:18] <smaug____> annevk: negative offset handling is separate feature
  669. # [19:18] <annevk> start : node, offset somehow
  670. # [19:18] <smaug____> annevk: why? I prefer consistency
  671. # [19:18] <annevk> smaug____: what you have there is way more typing than setStart(node, offset)
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  677. # [19:25] <JonathanNeal> hiya
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  688. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Morning, WHATWG! Anybody try to say anything to me the last week?
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  700. # [19:51] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: we discussed media queries for elements.
  701. # [19:52] <JonathanNeal> And I know at one point we pinged you.
  702. # [19:53] <JonathanNeal> necolas fired me up with a tweet, and I wrote up a little blog about it http://www.jonathantneal.com/blog/thoughts-on-media-queries-for-elements/
  703. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> I've been at a mix of Tucson, Tahoe, and videogames.
  704. # [19:53] <JonathanNeal> That's a great mix.
  705. # [19:54] <JonathanNeal> Official business or vacation?
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  727. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> Official business, official business vacation, weekend.
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  729. # [20:28] <JonathanNeal> :)
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  732. # [20:30] <jgraham> I hop you only played games beginning with "T"
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  742. # [20:48] <annevk> jobcentreplus mailed this letter about my NINo and basically suggested to type this URL: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBeneifts/Taxes/BeginnersGuideToTax/NationalInsurance/IntroductiontoNationalInsurance/DG_190057
  743. # [20:49] <annevk> It apparently redirects these days, so the paper is out of date with reality (doh), but the usability of typing such a thing leaves a lot to be desired.
  744. # [20:49] <annevk> Long, uppercase, lowercase, underscores, confusion between l and I... I guess that's why they made the new site.
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  752. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> annevk: Holy shit.
  753. # [21:03] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  754. # [21:04] <gsnedders> annevk: How complex is it to get one?
  755. # [21:04] <gsnedders> (Advantage of being British: one appears through the door shortly after turning 16.)
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  758. # [21:07] <annevk> gsnedders: surprisingly easy. I called last Monday as is required. Got an appoint for Tuesday morning. Walked 40 min Tuesday morning to get to the nearest jobcentreplus. Answered the questions and let them copy my passport, employment contract, and tenancy agreement, and then today I got mail even though they said it would take two to three weeks.
  759. # [21:07] <annevk> appointment*
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  761. # [21:08] <gsnedders> annevk: You need an appointment!?
  762. # [21:09] * gsnedders is honestly surprised it's that complicated
  763. # [21:09] <gsnedders> (And why the hell do they need employment contract and tenancy agreement? I guess the latter they take as proof of address, but the former?)
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  765. # [21:09] <annevk> gsnedders: and wait a bit and talk to a person and such :-)
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  767. # [21:11] <gsnedders> annevk: I'm just honestly surprised there's that much to it. I'd expect it to be one form + photocopy of ID document, and possibly proof of address.
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  769. # [21:12] <gsnedders> I mean, it's not like you can do much with it.
  770. # [21:16] <annevk> All I know is my employer needs it and that it's the only interaction that's required for me with the UK government so from that perspective it's all relatively easy.
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  772. # [21:17] <gsnedders> It's a number to identify you for tax purposes. That's all.
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  778. # [21:24] <jgraham> Yup, should be much easier than moving to Sweden for example (and it sounds like it is, pretty much)
  779. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> People want to move to Sweden? :)
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  781. # [21:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: Really? I had a single form to fill out, albeit only for a samordingsnummer.
  782. # [21:28] <gsnedders> *samordningsnummer
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  790. # [21:42] <volkmar> gsnedders: they require a proof of employement or a proof of willing to find a job
  791. # [21:43] <volkmar> I guess it's mostly to not waste time on creating files for ppl that will never use their number
  792. # [21:43] <volkmar> might be for other purpose though
  793. # [21:43] <gsnedders> volkmar: Yeah, that was my only guess as to why it could be.
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  803. # [22:08] <annevk> dglazkov: btw, discussed this with sicking the other day
  804. # [22:08] <annevk> dglazkov: the idea of changing ShadowRoot to HTMLShadowElement
  805. # [22:08] <jgraham> OK, I am officially living in a bizzaro parallel universe. Apparently the Romainian government have denied *on facebook* that any rogue horsemeat masqurading as beef has come from their country.
  806. # [22:08] <annevk> dglazkov: it would just mimic <shadow> at that point
  807. # [22:08] <annevk> dglazkov: which you'd clone and add to hosts as appropriate
  808. # [22:09] <annevk> dglazkov: and when appended to the DOM it would simply render nothing
  809. # [22:09] <annevk> dglazkov: prolly better as discussion on public-webapps, dunno if sicking has the time to take it there
  810. # [22:10] <annevk> gsnedders: volkmar: isn't it also a number for benefits? I believe you can use it to claim some stuff if you can't find income or some such
  811. # [22:11] * jgraham has never used a NI number for anything other than paying tax
  812. # [22:11] <jgraham> But if you get them from jobcentreplus, I guess, maybe?
  813. # [22:12] <annevk> https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance
  814. # [22:12] <annevk> if you make less you don't pay I suppose
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  822. # [22:26] <gsnedders> annevk: Right
  823. # [22:26] <gsnedders> annevk: Practically most people just count NI contributions as tax.
  824. # [22:29] <esprehn_> wow, the gov.uk website uses html5
  825. # [22:30] <annevk> new gov.uk site is generally awesome
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  827. # [22:30] <esprehn_> yeah this is nicely done
  828. # [22:31] <annevk> information on immigration has been extremely easy to find
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  837. # [22:40] <jgraham> I feel like I ought to know who did the gov.uk site
  838. # [22:40] <jgraham> But I don't think I actually do
  839. # [22:41] <jgraham> But it's pretty obvious that it wasn't some design-by-committee-and-people-that-don't-know-what-they're-doing job
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  842. # [22:43] <jgraham> http://digital.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/team-alpha/
  843. # [22:44] <jgraham> (turns out that I hadn'theard of them)
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  868. # [23:37] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: what are you thoughts on element media queries, like the kind I blogged about?
  869. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Same as I've explained many times before - dealing with the self-reference is way too hard, and restricting it such that it would be less hard would make the feature too weak.
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  875. # [23:50] * Quits: wycats__ (uid79@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kuhyecnapdrlyoqq) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  876. # [23:51] * Quits: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick) (Remote host closed the connection)
  877. # [23:56] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.104.154) (Quit: weinig)
  878. # [23:59] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.104.154)
  879. # Session Close: Tue Feb 12 00:00:00 2013

The end :)