/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-14 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 14 00:00:00 2013
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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17. # [00:12] <Hixie> ok how does multicol work
18. # [00:12] * Hixie gets out the spec
19. # [00:13] <Hixie> and does anyone implement this yet? (prefixes don't count)
20. # [00:13] <Hixie> what i really want is column-width: shrink-wrap
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23. # [00:14] <gsnedders> Well, I believe Presto has the most complete impl…
24. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That'll be column-width:fit-content when everyone supports that value.
25. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: Unprefixed in Presto and Trident, I believe.
26. # [00:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins: would that actually work? what's the intrinsic size of an element with a variable number of columns?
27. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Hixie: We'd have to magic it up when used there.
28. # [00:15] <Hixie> gsnedders: d'oh
29. # [00:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins: k, lgtm. make it so.
30. # [00:15] <Hixie> ok
31. # [00:15] <Hixie> i have http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/sorter/index.html
32. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> We already do some significant magic with multicol intrinsic sizing.
33. # [00:15] <Hixie> now to come up with an algorithm
34. # [00:16] <Hixie> also if anyone sees anything else that i should make sure we support in table sorting autosort, let me know
35. # [00:16] <Hixie> (see the "input" part of that)
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38. # [00:16] <Hixie> (i think the input is in the order i want)
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40. # [00:16] <Hixie> (so check that too)
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42. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: How are the short space-separated things sorting after? space is u+20, well before all the letters and numbers.
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45. # [00:18] <Hixie> in the input?
46. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Yes.
47. # [00:18] <Hixie> the sort order in the input is not perfect
48. # [00:18] <Hixie> it's locally sorted
49. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Oh, okay.
50. # [00:18] <Hixie> which ones should i fix?
51. # [00:18] <Hixie> i'd like it to be what we all agree we want
52. # [00:18] <Hixie> but i don't really know what that is at a global level
53. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Wait, I'm confused. So you want the *input* to already be sorted?
54. # [00:19] <Hixie> i want to know what output i want, and i am at this point putting the input in that order, so that i can then trivially check if my function is working
55. # [00:20] <Hixie> (i'll run it at least twice, with different permutations of the input)
56. # [00:20] <Hixie> (including at least the input, and the input reversed)
57. # [00:20] <Hixie> (to make sure they agree)
58. # [00:21] <Hixie> that make sense?
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66. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
67. # [00:23] <Hixie> ok reload, i think the input order is right now
68. # [00:27] <Hixie> moving IPs around...
69. # [00:28] <Hixie> ok
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71. # [00:28] <Hixie> so that would give an order of: 1; 1.1.1; 1.1.1.1; 1.1
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73. # [00:28] <Hixie> (sort by first number, then next number, etc)
74. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Huh? That's a weird order.
75. # [00:29] <Hixie> (so here 1 and 1.0 sort first, then 1.1.1 and 1.1.1.1 sort next because they're sorting on the first number "1", and then 1.1 goes last because it's bigger than 1.0)
76. # [00:29] <Hixie> yeah, it being weird is why i'm raising it here
77. # [00:29] <Hixie> not sure how else to do it though
78. # [00:29] <Hixie> unless we say that if you have a number followed by another, it sorts after infinity
79. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Don't split "numbers" on periods?
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81. # [00:30] * TabAtkins wasn't aware that we were doing natural sorting of lists of things in the first place. He may have missed the relevant discussion.
82. # [00:30] <Hixie> so then you'd have 1, 1.1, 2, 1.1.1, 1.1.1.1
83. # [00:30] <Hixie> this is for <table><th sorted>
84. # [00:30] <Hixie> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20524
85. # [00:31] <Hixie> the problem is we need to support IP addresses, version numbers, and regular reals
86. # [00:31] <Hixie> but we have to define how they sort relative to each other
87. # [00:31] <Hixie> (they're each easy to do alone)
88. # [00:32] <Hixie> do we prefer 1, 1.1.1, 1.1.1.1, 1.1, 2; or 1, 1.1, 2, 1.1.1, 1.1.1.1 ?
89. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Ah, I wasn't aware of this bug. Okay, that justifies a lot of this.
90. # [00:32] <Hixie> it's basically the hard bit of the <table sortable> feature that i did a few weeks ago, i had bailed on this one hard part :-)
91. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> The concept of natural sorting has been done before. Sorting 1.1 and 1.1.1 at the same time, though, is tricky.
92. # [00:32] <Hixie> hoped someone else would solve it for me, but as usual, my lazyness fails to bear fruit :-P
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94. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Hmmm
95. # [00:33] <Hixie> yeah a lot of this is based on stuart's work with sortable.js
96. # [00:33] <Hixie> unfortunately he bailed on some of these harder questions :-P
97. # [00:33] <Hixie> i think i prefer 1, 1.1, 2, 1.1.1, 1.1.1.1
98. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Actually, I think it's impossible to always accurately sort both version numbers and reals.
99. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Because in version numbers, 1.1 and 1.01 are the same thing.
100. # [00:34] <Hixie> certainly
101. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Okay.
102. # [00:34] <Hixie> if people are actually mixing these, they're being silly
103. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> And worse, 1.1 and 1.10 are different versions.
104. # [00:35] <Hixie> though the v1.01 vs 1.10 thing is hard
105. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah, 1.1 vs 1.01 vs. 1.10 = :/
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107. # [00:36] <Hixie> but it's obvious that 1.0 < 1.01 < 1.1 = 1.10, so, sorry version people
108. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> It's not even a question of mixing them. It's just that the *way* you sort them are different.
109. # [00:36] <Hixie> yeah
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111. # [00:36] <Hixie> anyway we solve that by having <data value="1 10">1.10</data>
112. # [00:36] <Hixie> so that's a separate problem
113. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> It looks, though, like if you use a separate other than ., or if you include at least three values, that they'll sort correctly as a list of numbers.
114. # [00:37] <Hixie> yeah
115. # [00:37] <Hixie> but should "1 1" sort before or after "2"?
116. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Okay, well, I'd sort list of numbers after single numbers.
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118. # [00:37] <Hixie> that means you get 1; 2; 1 1; 1 2; 2 1; 2 2
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120. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Yes.
121. # [00:38] <Hixie> seems consistent with what i prefer above for IPs
122. # [00:38] <Hixie> ok
123. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> It causes some confusion if you're using . to separate two numbers in a list, but other than that it's very natural.
124. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Are you handling this just by splitting the strings into digit/non-digit groups, and sorting them lexicographically?
125. # [00:39] <Hixie> is "2 2 2" less than or greater than "1 1 1 1"?
126. # [00:39] <Hixie> i'm not handling this at all so far
127. # [00:39] <Hixie> so far i just want to know what result i want
128. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Lack of something sorts before existence. So less.
129. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Oh, but hm.
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131. # [00:40] <Hixie> so 1 2 3; 1 2 4; 1 2 5; 1 2 3 4; 1 2 3 4 5; ?
132. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Sorry, greater than. Wasn't thinking.
133. # [00:40] <Hixie> k
134. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> The first 2 loses.
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136. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Sorting is always eager with comparisons.
137. # [00:43] <Hixie> so we're sorting "one number" before "more than one number", but "2 numbers" and "3 numbers" get sorted based on their numbers
138. # [00:43] <Hixie> i.e. 1; 9; 1 1; 1 1 1; 1 2
139. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> ...yes?
140. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Hm.
141. # [00:43] <Hixie> i think that's right, but it's weird
142. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Why are my preferences inconsistent?
143. # [00:43] <Hixie> hehe
144. # [00:43] <Hixie> i do think that's the right answer
145. # [00:43] <Hixie> it's just a bit weird when you mix all these things together
146. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> I think I can justify it by saying that "one number" and "a list of numbers" are different categories, and we sort categories whole.
147. # [00:43] <Hixie> and lists can't have just one number :-P
148. # [00:43] <Hixie> yeah
149. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Without an explicit indicator, no, lists cant' have one value. ^_^
150. # [00:44] <Hixie> of course this means 0 1; 0 1.1.1; 0 1.1
151. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Why?
152. # [00:45] <Hixie> because 1.1.1 turns into the same as [0, 1, 1, 1], but 0 1.1 turns into [0, 1.1]
153. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> I would think that each item in the list is sorted recursively, so
154. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Oh...
155. # [00:45] <Hixie> could do a recursive sort saying it's a list within a list, though
156. # [00:46] <Hixie> that would be... special to specify :-)
157. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Hm, I was thinking of different separators living at different levels, but I don't think I can justify my concept of "separator" without human thought.
158. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> We could just create a list of separators - " ", "-", ".", ",".
159. # [00:46] <Hixie> unless you want to be a very busy man, i don't think i can specify that the UA texts you a question each time it wants to compare numbers
160. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> First one encountered makes it a list, and splits the value. You then type each value recursively.
161. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Then sort.
162. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> I don't think people use different separators in the same list.
163. # [00:48] <Hixie> so 0 1.1.1 becomes [0, [1, 1, 1]] and 0 1.1 becomes [0, 1.1] ?
164. # [00:49] <Hixie> i think that is aesthetically pleasing but in reality the resulting complexity wouldn't be justified by the real world applications
165. # [00:50] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
166. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> I'm just thinking of lists of the same type. It seems weird that "1.1 2.0 1.2" sorts correctly (as a list of real numbers), but "1.1.1 2.0.1 1.2.0" doesn't (because it turns into a list of 9 integers).
167. # [00:51] <Hixie> hm, interesting point
168. # [00:52] <Hixie> this would only break when sorting lists of variable length lists, right
169. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> On the other hand, the way I described it would break anyway unless we established a hierarchy among separators. (Which might be justifiable, if we just put . above the others, due to ip addresses and versions.)
170. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Hm, maybe.
171. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> (Well, - should probably be above space and comma too, though perhaps below .)
172. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> SORTING IS HARD
173. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> LET'S GO SHOPPING
174. # [00:53] <Hixie> i admitedly lack imagination sometimes, but i can't think of any cases of lists of variable length lists in sortable tables
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176. # [00:54] <Hixie> so i'm happy to bail on that one :-P
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179. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> True that.
180. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I guess that as long as the sub-lists are of the same type and length, you can treat it like a big list for sorting.
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182. # [00:57] <Hixie> how should "-2-4-7" sort?
183. # [00:57] <Hixie> as ["-", 2, 4, 7], or as [-2, 4, 7] ?
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185. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> On the argument that "-2a-4" shoudl sort as [-2, a, -4], I say as [-2, -4, -7].
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188. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> Basically, just tokenize things as numbers or non-numeric strings, with a special check for the 1.1.1 case that forces it to tokenize as three numbers and two strings.
189. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> (etc for longer lists)
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194. # [01:07] <Hixie> well the problem with that is phone numbers are often of the form 1-2-3
195. # [01:08] <Hixie> wouldn't want 555-555-5555 to sort before 555-555-5554
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198. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Urf, you're right.
199. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> What's your working definition of a "separator" here?
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201. # [01:11] <Hixie> i have yet to figure that out
202. # [01:12] <Hixie> the sum total of my work on a solution here is "return b-a"
203. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Heh. Well, the resolution of that case depends entirely on how you're determining separators.
204. # [01:12] <Hixie> my work has been purely focused on the problem side of the equation :-)
205. # [01:13] <Hixie> i think i might not determine separators. That is, treat "0,1" the same as "0a1". basically anything that i can't get to parse into a number is a separator.
206. # [01:13] <Hixie> so "e" and "." would be special, and "-" special before a number
207. # [01:13] <Hixie> but with special rules for what happens if you're parsing a number and come across something weird, like 1e2e3
208. # [01:13] <Hixie> or -1-2-3
209. # [01:13] <Hixie> or 1.2.3
210. # [01:14] <Hixie> i'm thinking -2-4-7 is -2 4 7 though
211. # [01:14] <Hixie> it'd be weird to treat -2.4,7 as anything but -2.4 followed by something
212. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah. Hmm, to be consistent with how we want to treat 1.1 vs 1.1.1, I think you're right - [-2, 4, 7]
213. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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215. # [01:16] <Hixie> should i trim leading spaces. i'm thinking yes.
216. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Yes.
217. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Or perhaps just collapsible whitespace?
218. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Non-collapsed whitespace is usually significant.
219. # [01:17] <Hixie> i meant leading U+0020
220. # [01:17] <Hixie> and U+000A and U+0009 i'll treat as U+0020
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222. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> I know, but I'm saying that there's a sematnic distinction between spaces that are collapsed and those that are preserved.
223. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> Though that's at the CSS level, so probably not usable here. :/
224. # [01:18] <Hixie> yeah i'm definitely not looking at the white-space property here
225. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Okay, in that case, yeah, just trim all the ascii whitespace or whatever.
226. # [01:21] <JonathanNeal> if anyone here runs webkit memes, i humbly submit http://i.imgur.com/LVjcEdD.jpg
227. # [01:21] <Hixie> stdin.value.split('\n').reverse().sort(sorter).join('\n') is sane JS right?
228. # [01:21] <Hixie> or am i smoking something
229. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> I forget whether sort() returns something or does it in-place.
230. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Oh, it's in-place, but it returns itself for chaining.
231. # [01:23] <Hixie> oh god, stupid api
232. # [01:23] <Hixie> don't return something if you're mutating it
233. # [01:23] <Hixie> gah
234. # [01:23] <Hixie> makes it look like i'm doing functional stuff but then mutates stuff underneath it!
235. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> That part's fine - it enables chaining.
236. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> But it's bad that some parts of the API are functional and others mutate.
237. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Oh wait, never mind, reverse() also mutates.
238. # [01:24] <Hixie> apis should look like they do what they do
239. # [01:24] <Hixie> and should do what they look like they do
240. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Needs more bangs.
241. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> stdin.value.split('\n').reverse!().sort!(sorter).join('\n')
242. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> (Scheme idiom for mutating functions.)
243. # [01:25] <Hixie> heh
244. # [01:28] <Hixie> what's the js equivalent of the default JavaScript sorter?
245. # [01:28] <Hixie> comparator, i guess i should say
246. # [01:29] <Hixie> "If comparefn is not undefined and is not a consistent comparison function for the elements of this array (see below), the behaviour of sort is implementation-defined."
247. # [01:29] <Hixie> sigh
248. # [01:29] <Hixie> oh, that's for when your comparator is dumb
249. # [01:29] <Hixie> not when it's null
250. # [01:29] <Hixie> nevermind
251. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> undefined, not null.
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262. # [01:57] <Hixie> i seem to be pretty good about making the problem smaller and smaller without actually making the problem easier.
263. # [01:58] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/sorter/index.html
264. # [01:58] <Hixie> i have now reduced the problem to "just" tokenisation.
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275. # [02:27] <zewt> Hixie: maybe that page has changed since, but it never seems to set currentTokenAsNumber
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300. # [03:55] <Hixie> zewt: it's only 5% done :-)
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319. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> have the html5lib parser tests been merged into the html testsuite? If not doesn't it make sense they should be?
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325. # Session Close: Thu Feb 14 04:56:07 2013
326. #
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332. # [04:57] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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394. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> the polyglot community is growing
395. # [08:19] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Feb/0060.html really, the parser argument survives all the way into 2013?
396. # [08:19] <annevk> Man, what a way to wake up.
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398. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> polyglot community now has four members: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/pubclic-html/2013Feb/0121.html
399. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah I just now replied to that message
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404. # [08:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: you accidentally a word in the last sentence
405. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> oh
406. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> ah thanks
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409. # [08:24] * MikeSmith sends the correction
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411. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> I really should just quit reading that thread
412. # [08:24] <annevk> The argument also doesn't make sense. In the HTML case you just keep going. In the XML case you actively have to check if the grammar is correct. The whole notion of calling it "error correction" is wrong.
413. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> I wonder if that guy even understands that
414. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> from his messages, I guess he actually doesn't
415. # [08:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: Not really sure how to deal with that either. I'm on the TAG, but I've decided long ago that my 386-time is used and I'll do other things instead.
416. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> heh 386-time
417. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> yeah I think you're wise to spend it on other problems that have a community of more than 4 people on record as caring about them
418. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> there are bigger wrongs to right with that 386 time
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430. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> we have today's winner https://twitter.com/hsivonen/status/301940538171596801
431. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> I wish you could give votes to tweets the way you can to bugs in bugzilla
432. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> that on would get all my votes
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436. # [09:37] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, the html5lib tests are submitted to the testsuite
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438. # [09:41] <jgraham> https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/html5lib
439. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> jgraham: ah great, thanks
440. # [09:41] <jgraham> They just need to be moved to the correct place
441. # [09:41] <jgraham> (and perhaps regenersated with the newest test data)
442. # [09:41] <jgraham> *regenerated
443. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> yeah I guess Robin and Ms2ger have been working on moving the test
444. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> s
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447. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> jgraham: do we have any existing tests that check whether the correct HTML*Element interface is exposed for an element?
448. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> if not, would it be worth adding tests for that?
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454. # [09:56] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I can't think of any. You could just write idlharness.js tests for all elements. That would produce a lot of fails :)
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456. # [09:57] <jgraham> In unrelated thoughts, have we attempted to get jQuery and others to make it policy to submit tests when they find themselves working around browser bugs?
457. # [09:58] <jgraham> http://blog.methvin.com/2013/02/tragedy-of-webkit-commons.html whines about the fact that it's hard to get bugs fixed
458. # [09:59] <jgraham> But having public failing tests is one way to put pressure on vendors to fix things
459. # [09:59] <jgraham> So it seems like a win for jQuery and a win for the web
460. # [09:59] <darobin> jgraham: that's a very good idea
461. # [10:00] <darobin> I believe there's been talk about it but no action
462. # [10:00] <odinho> jgraham: We do have Julian Auborg. And now another jQuerist in TAG.
463. # [10:00] <jgraham> odinho: In the nicest possible way "in the TAG" and "helping the Open Web" are not really the same thing
464. # [10:00] <darobin> Julian has definitely been interested in testing, he was at TestTWF Paris and has asked several questions about the testing framework
465. # [10:00] <odinho> Yeah
466. # [10:00] <darobin> (some of which I still need to answer I'm afraid :()
467. # [10:01] <jgraham> Yup
468. # [10:01] <odinho> He's cool. And very interested in testing.
469. # [10:01] <darobin> yeah he's cool
470. # [10:01] <jgraham> Sure, I met him in Paris/Lyon too :)
471. # [10:01] <odinho> He's test facilitator for XHR. And did the test with putting test status in the XHR spec.
472. # [10:02] <jgraham> But while it's still at the level of "a few individuals are interested" it's not really good enough
473. # [10:02] <darobin> I think he was a bit annoyed with someone here saying that he didn't understand the web platform well enough to use XHR (because he was using jQuery for some spec stuff)
474. # [10:02] <odinho> Yeah, -- but I guess it's also to do with process.
475. # [10:02] <darobin> (or maybe I'm mixing that up with someone else)
476. # [10:02] <jgraham> We have to leverage their interest to make it something that happens by default
477. # [10:03] <jgraham> darobin: I think annevk might have said that?
478. # [10:03] * Joins: fishd (~fishd@216.239.45.130)
479. # [10:03] <jgraham> But I could be wrong
480. # [10:04] <darobin> "Never doubt that a few individuals who are interested can write some tests; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
481. # [10:04] <darobin> -- Margaret Mead, at TestTWF
482. # [10:04] <darobin> jgraham: might be possible
483. # [10:04] <darobin> not a very smart comment whoever it came from
484. # [10:06] <jgraham> darobin: It is hard to disagree that individuals write tests. But it is much more likely that they will write tests when they are in an environment where writing tests is normal and expected
485. # [10:06] <jgraham> At the moment, for the OWP, there aren't so many environments like that
486. # [10:06] <darobin> jgraham: I know, I was just having fun introducing anthropology completely gratuitously
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488. # [10:07] <jgraham> (at least for the case of browser-neutral, public tests)
489. # [10:07] <darobin> in general, without worrying about getting the jQuery project involved directly, it would be a good idea to trawl through the jQ code and spot everything weird it does to work around a bug
490. # [10:07] <darobin> I want write access to tobie's todo list :)
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492. # [10:07] <darobin> we should track these ideas as bugs
493. # [10:08] <darobin> whoever wants to set it up gets to pick the bug tracker
494. # [10:08] <jgraham> "it would be a good idea [...] to trawl through the jQuery code" /me phones the blood testing people to check for illicit substances in darobin's system
495. # [10:08] <darobin> jgraham: it's something I've done before — it's actually not that long and pretty readable
496. # [10:08] <jgraham> s/[...] //
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498. # [10:08] <annevk> darobin: just seemed wrong
499. # [10:09] <darobin> annevk: what did?
500. # [10:09] <annevk> darobin: using some ajax() abstraction instead of XHR in the XHR spec
501. # [10:09] <darobin> ah :)
502. # [10:09] <darobin> well, I expect people to dogfood
503. # [10:09] <annevk> Though admittedly I'm not very impressed thus far with my three counterparts at the W3C
504. # [10:10] <darobin> also, there's a reason why ajax() is popular, and it's not because people don't understand XHR!
505. # [10:10] <darobin> well, that's another issue altogether
506. # [10:11] <darobin> I'm pretty sure that Julian, who's in charge of ajax(), understands XHR pretty damn well in practice
507. # [10:11] <jgraham> darobin: Anyway, I think my point is that us going through the jQuery code trying to look for weirdness doesn't scale
508. # [10:11] <darobin> jgraham: I'm not disagreeing that we should get more people involved
509. # [10:11] <darobin> but I was thinking of this as a project that could encourage participation
510. # [10:12] <darobin> sort of like what Brackets does
511. # [10:12] <jgraham> Brackets?
512. # [10:12] <darobin> whenever they have a simple bug that's not critical, instead of solving it they add it to an "easy" list
513. # [10:12] <darobin> so that people who want to get involved can find an easy entry point
514. # [10:12] <darobin> http://brackets.io/
515. # [10:12] <jgraham> [goodfirstbug]
516. # [10:13] <jgraham> Or something
517. # [10:13] <darobin> exactly
518. # [10:13] <darobin> a lot of people know the jQ code, and/or are interested in it, and understand what a given part does
519. # [10:13] <darobin> spot a bug, submit a test, make jQ smaller and faster over time can be an enticing avenue of action
520. # [10:14] <darobin> I think it feels more concrete than "write a test against a spec"
521. # [10:14] <darobin> anyway, just a thought
522. # [10:14] <darobin> cat log >> tobie.todo
523. # [10:16] <jgraham> Well whichever path we take to get there I am happy, as long as the destination is a culture where people that depend on the web, and benefit from a high degree of interoperability, are engaged in behaviours that actively improve interoperability, rather than assuming it is someone else's problem
524. # [10:16] <darobin> you mean as opposed to only testing for WebKit?
525. # [10:17] <jgraham> Well in the case of jQuery, I mean as opposed to hacking around any bugs they find and then years later moaning that no one fixed the bugs
526. # [10:17] <jgraham> jQuery are relatively good about testing in lots of engines
527. # [10:18] <jgraham> Although "relatively good" is quite a low bar here
528. # [10:19] <darobin> they're actually pretty damn good
529. # [10:19] <jgraham> Sure
530. # [10:19] <jgraham> they could be a lot less good and still re relatively good though
531. # [10:19] <jgraham> *be
532. # [10:20] <darobin> heh, yeah
533. # [10:20] <darobin> I've also been wondering if it would make sense to collaborate with http://swarm.jquery.org/
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535. # [10:21] <darobin> browserstack has run 272 million tests through that interface
536. # [10:21] <darobin> it's not bad
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547. # [10:38] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I've written tests to check the HTML*Element interfaces
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551. # [10:43] <jgraham> Ms2ger++
552. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> ./html/semantics/interfaces.html I think
553. # [10:47] <Ms2ger> "The polyglot feature represents, to me, its value proposition."
554. # [10:47] * Ms2ger snorts
555. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks
556. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> (for the tests not for the snorts)
557. # [10:53] <Ms2ger> Hmm, do we still have a data element?
558. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> far as I know
559. # [10:55] * Ms2ger puts reviewing that test on his todo list
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565. # [11:04] <Ms2ger> darobin, hey, feel like reviewing a test of mine? :)
566. # [11:05] <darobin> Ms2ger: sure :)
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568. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> darobin, https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/22
569. # [11:07] <darobin> ta, I'll look
570. # [11:09] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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572. # [11:14] <annevk> Got to love how http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2012/vendor-prefixes-mobile-monoculture/ contrasts with http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2013/opera-and-webkit-a-personal-perspective/
573. # [11:17] <sangwhan> annevk: :P
574. # [11:19] <othermaciej> I think Opera using WebKit is bad for the Web because WebKit has the least creative name of the major browser engines
575. # [11:19] <othermaciej> compared to Gecko, Presto, Trident, it sounds so boring
576. # [11:19] <Ms2ger> othermaciej, Gecko is hiring ;)
577. # [11:19] <othermaciej> Ms2ger: if I could have the code name without having to touch the code….
578. # [11:20] <jgraham> othermaciej: Sure you can
579. # [11:20] <jgraham> Go into PR
580. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> Why do I have a libjs-jquery package installed?
581. # [11:21] <othermaciej> me working for Mozilla PR would be a brilliant plan for destroying Mozilla
582. # [11:21] <Ms2ger> I'd suggest joining Opera PR, but it's too late to do anything to them :)
583. # [11:22] <annevk> othermaciej: if that's the only reason why it's bad it doesn't seem so bad
584. # [11:22] <annevk> othermaciej: the web is already full of bad names and doing just fine
585. # [11:22] <othermaciej> they managed to get a lot more press this week than they have for a while
586. # [11:23] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
587. # [11:23] <jgraham> See, you are ideal for PR
588. # [11:25] <othermaciej> based on this week, I’d recommend changing engines once a month
589. # [11:26] <sangwhan> Everyone should take turns and swap engines every once in a while. Ensures job security for browser engineers.
590. # [11:28] <darobin> oooh, now there's an idea
591. # [11:29] <darobin> it would also keep developers on their toes
592. # [11:29] <Ms2ger> But then we'd all have to work on WebKit at times...
593. # [11:30] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Not really
594. # [11:30] <jgraham> Just mandate that every browser must have a short release cycle and each release must use a different engine in a fixed order
595. # [11:30] <jgraham> The people working on the engines could keep working on one product at a time
596. # [11:30] <sangwhan> ...and you carefully schedule your vacations
597. # [11:31] <jgraham> But the frontsends would all have to be engine-independent
598. # [11:31] <jgraham> *frontends
599. # [11:31] <jgraham> Also annevk would get a hippo
600. # [11:36] <annevk> I'm in!
601. # [11:37] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
602. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> so I had a mail problem and lost most my unread list mail and bugmail from yesterday
603. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering if I should feel bad about that
604. # [11:42] <annevk> Sound wonderful :-)
605. # [11:43] * Joins: Rubennn (~Rubennn@apher.gewooniets.nl)
606. # [11:43] <annevk> Although I guess even if I lost email, I could still figure out what to work on by looking through the long lists of open bugs :/
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609. # [11:52] <annevk> Ugh, rewriting low-level bits of URL is no fun
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612. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> darobin: for generating the test-case numbers in http://w3c-test.org/html-testsuite/master/tools/coverage/ do you look for test-cases in the top-level dirs?
613. # [11:57] <darobin> MikeSmith: you mean above depth 3?
614. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> it seems like not because it'd otherwise be catching the tests in semantics/interfaces.html
615. # [11:57] * darobin looks
616. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> I mean like that semantics/interfaces.html case
617. # [11:58] <darobin> "/html/semantics/interfaces.html": 131,
618. # [11:58] <darobin> so they get detected — if they get lost it's later in the process
619. # [11:59] <darobin> "semantics": 1129,
620. # [11:59] <jgraham> darobin: Why does that script think that "navigating across documents" has zero testable words in it? It's a giant, confusing, normative, algorithm
621. # [11:59] <darobin> MikeSmith: well they seem to be listed?
622. # [11:59] <jgraham> Which is unimplemeneted in all browsers
623. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> darobin: hmm I guess there's no separatee row where they're listed?
624. # [12:00] <jgraham> It's like the most desirable section of the spec to get tests for
625. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> they're just added to the total but not listed separately?
626. # [12:00] <darobin> MikeSmith: if a test file is right under semantics/ it goes into semantics
627. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> ah
628. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> ok, I see
629. # [12:00] <darobin> if you want it in a subsection, you need to put it in a subsection dir
630. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> ok
631. # [12:01] <darobin> I treat the file names as meaningless
632. # [12:01] <darobin> because, mostly, they are
633. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> sure
634. # [12:01] <darobin> jgraham: lemme look
635. # [12:01] <darobin> it's very much possible that there are bugs with the spec analysis code — analysing the HTML spec is a FPITA
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638. # [12:04] <darobin> jgraham: yeah I confirm that's a bug
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640. # [12:04] * darobin sighs
641. # [12:05] <darobin> I wish I could use XPath for this, but it just causes PhantomJS to go crazy
642. # [12:11] <annevk> same for application cache stuff
643. # [12:11] <annevk> downloading-or-updating-an-application-cache is definitely stuff that requires tests (if we keep it long term that is, otherwise, care)
644. # [12:11] <annevk> not doing tests for rendering also seems somewhat wrong
645. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> annevk, want to review my rendering test? :)
646. # [12:19] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'm on the TAG man, got more important things to do
647. # [12:19] <annevk> Ms2ger: j/k, pointer?
648. # [12:19] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/22
649. # [12:19] <annevk> Hmm, that does look kinda painful to review
650. # [12:20] <Ms2ger> Heh
651. # [12:22] <annevk> Okay, so this is mostly about border attribute parsing?
652. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> Yeah
653. # [12:22] <annevk> Is there no reflecting attribute for that?
654. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102112 fwiw
655. # [12:26] <annevk> Oh, so the spec says that if the algorithm generates an error, it's fine
656. # [12:26] <annevk> "is also found to have a value other than zero or to generate an error" was confusing me
657. # [12:27] <annevk> is -0 less than 0?
658. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> -0 is 0
659. # [12:28] <annevk> okay, commented on the pull
660. # [12:28] <annevk> is that the correct procedure?
661. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> Sure
662. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> Now I get to figure out how to merge this :)
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664. # [12:31] <annevk> And I can try to find something else to postpone rewriting fragile URL algorithms
665. # [12:32] <Ms2ger> :D
666. # [12:34] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
667. # [12:36] <annevk> Hmm if someone sets .href, do we just want to blow the previous query object away or do we want to update it?
668. # [12:36] <annevk> I guess we want to update it.
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678. # [13:07] <annevk> Hmm, now URL terminology... I guess I can curse Hixie back while he's not around.
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680. # [13:13] <smaug____> annevk: curious, has anyone collected use cases for the new event listener registration thing. And also list of ways to add listeners in various script libraries
681. # [13:13] <annevk> smaug____: mostly just looked at a bunch of libraries
682. # [13:14] <annevk> smaug____: plus feedback from developers here and there
683. # [13:14] <smaug____> but not written all that to a wiki or anything like that?
684. # [13:15] <annevk> no
685. # [13:16] <annevk> Nobody ever asks me for my wiki pages :-)
686. # [13:19] <annevk> smaug____: jQuery has on()/off(); Dart has on.eventName.add()/remove(); X? has obj = on()
687. # [13:20] <annevk> smaug____: then they have "event delegation" (wrong name yadayada) via selectors and given that default bubbling would be good
688. # [13:20] <annevk> smaug____: the other use case that came up recently was only receiving trusted events
689. # [13:21] <annevk> smaug____: which seems reasonable once we have a dictionary for registration options
690. # [13:22] <smaug____> s/X/Prototype.js/ ?
691. # [13:23] <smaug____> Dart isn't too relevant
692. # [13:23] <smaug____> ah, yeah, Gecko has a way to receive only trusted events
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696. # [13:40] <annevk> smaug____: not sure when I'll get to specifying them though
697. # [13:41] <smaug____> well, before specifying them it is better to know what to specify :)
698. # [13:41] <smaug____> I mean, the feature set we want
699. # [13:41] <smaug____> and syntax to use etc
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705. # [14:24] * marcosc wishes WebIDL was on GitHub (*hint hint, heycam|away*)… I'm just putting that out there.
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708. # [14:38] <zewt> annevk: event delegation is the word everyone uses, so it's de facto the right name :P
709. # [14:39] <zewt> what was the use case for receiving trusted events? i've never actually found a purpose of that flag (seems like a relic from the past, back when people visualized the "default action" as part of event dispatch rather than part of the caller)
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711. # [14:44] <annevk> I forgot, I don't store all that
712. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: are not the tests in dzenana-trenutak pull requests redundant with the existing semantics/interfaces.html tests?
713. # [14:46] <zewt> know where it was actually requested? don't see "trusted" in the thread anywhere
714. # [14:46] <zewt> would be nice to know the actual use case
715. # [14:46] <zewt> afk
716. # [14:51] <annevk> Probably the same use case why we have isTrusted in the first place. I think it relates to components.
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718. # [15:08] <zewt> the trusted flag predates components by about a century, right? heh
719. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, some of them probably are
720. # [15:08] <annevk> Not really. XBL is pretty much the same thing
721. # [15:09] <Ms2ger> idl.spec.whatwg.org? Mmmm
722. # [15:09] <annevk> Well, century, that could be true I suppose if we're not too specific
723. # [15:09] <annevk> Ms2ger: want
724. # [15:12] <zewt> i don't really even know what xbl is, heh, other than it's something that isn't
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726. # [15:21] <annevk> The comments on http://robert.ocallahan.org/2013/02/and-then-there-were-three.html o_O
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728. # [15:26] <zewt> ultimately i suspect the diversity opera gives us doesn't actually benefit us that much, just because their market share is too small
729. # [15:29] <darobin> it's not the market share that matters
730. # [15:29] <darobin> it's the possibility
731. # [15:29] <annevk> And it's getting feedback from a different set of implementation assumptions.
732. # [15:29] <annevk> And a bunch more
733. # [15:29] <darobin> what's more 2% market share isn't small
734. # [15:29] <darobin> give me 2% of the web any day
735. # [15:30] <darobin> I'll take that
736. # [15:30] <Ms2ger> darobin, go move that repo instead of taking my market share
737. # [15:30] <darobin> Ms2ger: tobie said no move it, so I no move it
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741. # [15:47] <zewt> it's small to authors :) 2% market share doesn't correspond to 2% development effort and testing to make our stuff work in it
742. # [15:50] <darobin> well, turning away 1 person out of every fifty at your shop is hardly the key to success
743. # [15:50] <zewt> depends on what your shop is, eg. what your resources are
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745. # [15:50] <karlcow> would 17% of mobile worldwide enough? http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_browser-ww-monthly-201112-201212
746. # [15:50] <karlcow> or 41% mobile in Bangladesh enough? http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_browser-BD-monthly-201112-201212
747. # [15:51] <zewt> that doesn't seem to distinguish opera mobile from opera mini, which from what i understand are very different beasts
748. # [15:53] <jgraham> I would be interested to see numbers to back up the assertion that supporting WebKit + Gecko + Trident + Presto is significantly more expensive than supporting WebKit + Gecko + Trident
749. # [15:54] <karlcow> 14.6% Desktop in Russian Federation http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-RU-monthly-201112-201212
750. # [15:54] <karlcow> not enough market share?
751. # [15:55] <karlcow> jgraham: specifically when most of the time, the interop issue was coming for the absence of the codepath more than the incompatibility (blocking through user agent sniffing, forgetting the prefixes in css and JS, not having unprefixed fallbacks)
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754. # [15:58] <jgraham> karlcow: Indeed, that matches my experience too. There are *lots* of sites that would have worked OK with trivial fixes << 2% of the cost of building the site.
755. # [15:59] <jgraham> Just not blocking Opera would take negative effort, for example
756. # [15:59] <jgraham> That doesn't apply to all cases of course
757. # [16:04] <Ms2ger> Wait, track.readyState is an integer?
758. # [16:05] <jgraham> An unsigned short, in fact
759. # [16:05] <jgraham> readyState always is, so it's consistent
760. # [16:06] <jgraham> Even if that's not how we do things these days
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772. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> jgraham, except it isn't; IDB and WebRTC use strings
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774. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> As do some of the B2G APIs
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781. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> jgraham: so looking at the outline algorithm I don't see that there's anything testable in it
782. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> because it doesn't state that UAs are actually required to expose it, or how
783. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> wouldn't it make sense to just have a document.outline?
784. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> so that is actually gets exposed to Web content?
785. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> and the Web developers could actually do something with it
786. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> e.g., use it to generate a ToC
787. # [16:49] <Ms2ger> No, then we'd have to implement it ;)
788. # [16:49] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Well
789. # [16:49] <jgraham> I think that browsers are not the intended conformance class
790. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> maybe they should be
791. # [16:49] <jgraham> Interesting idea
792. # [16:50] <jgraham> One problem is that the algorithm is too heavyweight to use in style
793. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> exposing an outline for Web devs to use seems like a potenally pretty useful thing to do
794. # [16:50] <jgraham> So the obvious idea of ::heading(n) doesn't really work
795. # [16:51] <jgraham> I could go with that
796. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> go with it meaning you don't think it's a bad idea?
797. # [16:52] <jgraham> Not until hsivonen explains to me that it is ;)
798. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> "Last, nothing motivates most of us to act than seeing something wrong on the Internet."
799. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> All too true
800. # [16:54] <jgraham> MikeSmith: One concern might be that it would be slow to generate
801. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
802. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> so we deal with that by having it only generated on demand
803. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> I wonder if there's any similar precedent
804. # [16:55] <jgraham> Right, but the class to document.outline would block the UI thread
805. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> right so we can't do it that way
806. # [16:55] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Lots of things are generated lazilly inside UAs
807. # [16:56] <jgraham> Although, maybe it is no worse than querySelector
808. # [16:56] <jgraham> Or something
809. # [16:56] <jgraham> In which case it is fast enough
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814. # [17:03] <Ms2ger> annevk, shouldn't DOM say (Mozilla Foundation) for the three of us now? :)
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818. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> jgraham: so no document.outline but instead created with document.createOutline(Element element)
819. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> so you could do document.createOutline(document.documentElement) if you wanted an outline for the whole document
820. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> or you could create an outline for whatever portion of the document you wanted one for
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842. # [17:46] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Is there a use case for a partial outline?
843. # [17:47] <Ms2ger> TOCs for individual posts on blogs?
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845. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
846. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> TOCs per section, in a long single-page doc
847. # [17:49] <Ms2ger> Hell, the HTML spec
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849. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> hah yeah
850. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> plus that's a nice general statement
851. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> curse
852. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> like Khaaaaaan!!
853. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> jgraham: could still make it so that document.createOutline() does it for the whole document
854. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> I guess
855. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> or add .createOutline() to Element :)
856. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> but I think that would not be so popular
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859. # [17:54] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
860. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> or HTMLELement
861. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> rather
862. # [17:55] <dglazkov> I was on vacation yesterday. Did anything interesting happen?
863. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> though still not likely be popular
864. # [17:55] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Or Object :p
865. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: the Quickening
866. # [17:55] <dglazkov> again?!
867. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> plus webkitmemes
868. # [17:55] <dglazkov> I thought we cancelled that
869. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: nope, you're on the way to top, Highlander
870. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> it'll just be you and Sean Connery in the end
871. # [17:56] <dglazkov> I'll yield to Sean. He seems like a cool dude
872. # [17:57] <jgraham> I have never seen Highlander, but I am imagining dglazkov on top of a Scottish mountain, shirtless, screaming "I am the only one"
873. # [17:57] <jgraham> It is quite distressing
874. # [17:58] <dglazkov> when did I lose the shirt?
875. # [17:58] <jgraham> Quite early on
876. # [17:58] <dglazkov> hmm.
877. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> this picture of dglazkov evens looks a lot like Sean Connery: http://media.weirdworm.com/img/misc/6-reasons-highlander-is-awesome/connery.jpg
878. # [17:58] <dglazkov> that does seem distressing
879. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> oh man this dglazkov picture even more so http://www.danvelazquez.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/zardoz.jpg
880. # [18:00] <dglazkov> red underwear. Never could resist that.
881. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> then there's the new WebKit logo that's been proposed http://www.retronaut.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/zardoz-12.jpg
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883. # [18:01] <dglazkov> stop, stop. You're bringing back memories of that terrible, terrible movie. I give up.
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886. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: "the rudeness with which you made your demand is a sign of dirty conscious"
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889. # [18:05] <dglazkov> <_<
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973. # [20:23] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: You're right. Reading Haavard's tweets is a bad idea. Infuriating stuff. :P
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975. # [20:24] <othermaciej> why is it infuriating?
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977. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: yeah, whatever universe he lives in, it ain't ours
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979. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: he's the Asa Dotzler of Opera
980. # [20:29] <wilhelm> Pretty much.
981. # [20:29] <othermaciej> yeah but he’s always been, hasn’t he?
982. # [20:30] <wilhelm> Yes, but always towards some other browser vendor. Not against former co-workers. (c:
983. # [20:32] <othermaciej> ah
984. # [20:32] <othermaciej> well, if he’s going to be reflexively pro-opera, I guess he has to be against anyone who is against opera’s current position
985. # [20:33] <wilhelm> Yes. I just realized the same thing.
986. # [20:33] <wilhelm> We've always been at war with Eurasia.
987. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah true. but it has always baffled me why he's kept on at Opera while massively more productive people are given an invite to work elsewhere
988. # [20:34] <othermaciej> has Asa ever jumped on ex-Mozilla people?
989. # [20:34] <othermaciej> I do not know what Haavard’s official day job is or how good he is at it so I can’t comment
990. # [20:37] <othermaciej> I think Opera’s choice is reasonable under the circumstances though it’s regrettable to have fewer serious browser engines
991. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> I'll bite my tongue on that at this point (about dude)
992. # [20:39] <wilhelm> Yes, Opera has been on a collision course with that iceberg for years. And the captain was asleep. My frustration is about the poor decisions that made this inevitable, not the switch itself.
993. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: outside of the opera thing there are pretty obviously some serious challenges here with this code
994. # [20:39] <tantek> "Support -webkit- prefixes? Why not all of WebKit?"
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996. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: this is not 2001 or whatever or even 2008
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999. # [20:41] <othermaciej> WebKit: it
1000. # [20:41] <othermaciej> ’s not just a prefix
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1003. # [20:44] <tantek> … it's several prefixes (-webkit-, -khtml-, … )
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1005. # [20:47] <Philip`> Opera should submit a patch to WebKit to add support for -o- prefixes, since there's probably a few sites that rely on that
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1013. # [20:52] <wilhelm> Stock markets are funny. "We missed our projected earnings." -10%! "Someone said Facebook may buy us!" +20%! "It's Tuesday!" +5%! ... "18 years of development - and our codebase is worthless." -2%!
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1015. # [20:55] <marcosc> LOL
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1064. # [22:13] <freedrull> are there any efforts being made to make <audio> aware of icecast/shoutcast metadata updates?
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1113. # [23:28] <doublec> freedrull: there's been discussion on the mailing list about changes to metadata but I'm not aware of anything specific happening
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1128. # [23:57] <volkmar> how should CORS behave from localhost (ie. not really from another origin)
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1130. # Session Close: Fri Feb 15 00:00:00 2013

The end :)