/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 16 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  4. # [00:02] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  5. # [00:03] * GPHemsley has to admit that he isn't following what the proposal is
  6. # [00:04] <GPHemsley> can haz more examples plz?
  7. # [00:05] * Joins: divya (~Adium@70-36-142-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  8. # [00:05] <GPHemsley> oh, hmm
  9. # [00:05] <GPHemsley> http://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/pre-submission.html
  10. # [00:06] <GPHemsley> (this just coincidentally showed up in my Twitter stream)
  11. # [00:06] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.21.107)
  12. # [00:09] <GPHemsley> I'm not sure I agree with the splitting of uncertain vs. approximate, or how to handle it
  13. # [00:09] <GPHemsley> and I'd previously considered using 'X' where they use 'u'
  14. # [00:09] <GPHemsley> (for unspecified)
  15. # [00:10] <GPHemsley> and the handling of seasons seems rather arbitrary and ambiguous
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  17. # [00:12] <GPHemsley> oh, hmm... actually, my use of 'X' would coincide more with their use of 'x'
  18. # [00:12] <GPHemsley> interesting
  19. # [00:12] <GPHemsley> (not that I'd really intended to distinguish precision)
  20. # [00:15] <GPHemsley> FYI, the homepage is here: http://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/
  21. # [00:16] <Hixie> GPHemsley: examples are under "input" in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/sorter/index.html
  22. # [00:16] <Hixie> GPHemsley: ignore the code for now
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  24. # [00:16] <Hixie> and this is for what order table rows should be sorted by if a column contains those values
  25. # [00:17] <GPHemsley> right
  26. # [00:17] <GPHemsley> so, why would it sort between "1" and "3"?
  27. # [00:18] <Hixie> "it"?
  28. # [00:18] <GPHemsley> oh, wait
  29. # [00:18] <GPHemsley> you confused me with all your typo corrections
  30. # [00:18] <GPHemsley> hang on
  31. # [00:18] <Hixie> heh
  32. # [00:18] <Hixie> the "input" list on that page is in the order i'm advocating
  33. # [00:19] <GPHemsley> so, you prioritize numbers over letters?
  34. # [00:19] <GPHemsley> e.g., why is 2nd chapter, part 4 > 2-4-5 ?
  35. # [00:20] <Hixie> it should be <
  36. # [00:20] <GPHemsley> (or <, depending on how you see things)
  37. # [00:20] <Hixie> because [2,4]<[2,4,0]
  38. # [00:20] <GPHemsley> I meant higher up on the list
  39. # [00:20] <GPHemsley> ah
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  41. # [00:20] <Hixie> higher is lower, the list is ascending
  42. # [00:20] <GPHemsley> yeah, we're in agreement here :P
  43. # [00:21] <Hixie> i just wrote "higher is lower", i should not be allowed to work today
  44. # [00:21] <GPHemsley> heh
  45. # [00:21] <Hixie> but putting that aside...
  46. # [00:21] <GPHemsley> and why is "2 4 6" < "2nd and 4th and 6th"?
  47. # [00:22] <Hixie> because " "<"nd and "
  48. # [00:22] <GPHemsley> ah, alphabetically?
  49. # [00:22] <Hixie> (just to clarify, that's just the reasoning i used in constructing the list; i'm eager to consider other answers)
  50. # [00:22] <Hixie> lexically, yeah
  51. # [00:22] <GPHemsley> so, sort numerically, then sort alphabetically?
  52. # [00:22] <Hixie> sort of
  53. # [00:23] <Hixie> except leading strings are sorted first
  54. # [00:23] <GPHemsley> ah, ok
  55. # [00:23] <Hixie> so "1"<"a0"
  56. # [00:23] <Hixie> and single numbers are < lists of numbers
  57. # [00:23] <GPHemsley> so what is the order of "1", "3", "2 2", "2 4"?
  58. # [00:24] <Hixie> so "2"<"1 0"<"a1"<"a0 0"
  59. # [00:24] <GPHemsley> "1", "2 2", "2 4", "3"?
  60. # [00:24] <Hixie> in your case, 1;2;2 2;2 4
  61. # [00:24] <Hixie> er
  62. # [00:24] <Hixie> 1;3;2 2;2 4
  63. # [00:24] <GPHemsley> oh
  64. # [00:24] <GPHemsley> hmm
  65. # [00:25] <Hixie> the reasoning being you don't want IP addresses and numbers sorting mixed
  66. # [00:25] <Hixie> you want IP addresses to end up after the numbers
  67. # [00:25] <Hixie> (arguably)
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  69. # [00:26] <GPHemsley> IP address with spaces?
  70. # [00:26] <GPHemsley> hmm
  71. # [00:26] <Hixie> "1.1.1.1" should sort after "2"
  72. # [00:27] <Hixie> (is the argument that defends the current list)
  73. # [00:27] <GPHemsley> how do you differentiate between an IP address and a version number?
  74. # [00:27] <Hixie> you don't
  75. # [00:28] <GPHemsley> but that would mean that version 2.2 sorts after version 3
  76. # [00:28] <Hixie> the real question is how do you differentiate between a two-part version number and a floating point number
  77. # [00:28] <Hixie> (or between a hex string and a string with an exponent)
  78. # [00:28] <GPHemsley> hmm
  79. # [00:28] <Hixie> 2.2 is a single floating point number, so it sorts before 3
  80. # [00:28] <GPHemsley> 2.2.2, then
  81. # [00:28] <Hixie> 2.2.2 sorts after 3, yes
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  84. # [00:29] <Hixie> write it 3.0.0 if you want it to sort in the other order
  85. # [00:29] * jwalden_ is now known as jwalden
  86. # [00:29] <GPHemsley> but if you have a table where versions are listed for software from different vendors..
  87. # [00:30] <Hixie> yeah, dunno what you do in that case
  88. # [00:30] <GPHemsley> consider http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.version-compare.php
  89. # [00:31] <GPHemsley> I think "1 0" < "2"
  90. # [00:31] <GPHemsley> most people think of an IP address in terms of its blocks
  91. # [00:31] <GPHemsley> so they might expect 10.0.0.1 to be after 10
  92. # [00:31] <GPHemsley> e.g.
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  94. # [00:32] <Hixie> yeah, that can certainly be argued as well
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  96. # [00:32] <GPHemsley> anyway, I'm gonna go eat, and let that ponder
  97. # [00:32] <Hixie> but that would give an order of: 1; 1.1.1; 1.1.1.1; 1.1
  98. # [00:33] <GPHemsley> would it?
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  100. # [00:33] <Hixie> 1 and 1.0 sort first, then 1.1.1 and 1.1.1.1 sort next because they're sorting on the first number "1", and then 1.1 goes last because it's bigger than 1.0
  101. # [00:33] <GPHemsley> $ < *
  102. # [00:33] <GPHemsley> (regexp)
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  104. # [00:33] <GPHemsley> or $ < .
  105. # [00:33] <GPHemsley> if you prefer
  106. # [00:34] <Hixie> the problem is 1.1.1.1 is a list of four "1.0"s, whereas "1.1" is a single number between 1.05 and 1.15.
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  108. # [00:34] <GPHemsley> ah, there's your problem, then, maybe
  109. # [00:34] <GPHemsley> treating integers as floats
  110. # [00:35] <GPHemsley> 1 < 1.1 < 1.1.1 < 1.1.1.1
  111. # [00:35] <GPHemsley> the real question is 1.1 ? 1.10 ? 1.11 ? 1.1.1
  112. # [00:36] * GPHemsley shrugs
  113. # [00:36] <GPHemsley> gotta eat
  114. # [00:36] <Hixie> ok but we need 1 < 1e0 < 1.01 < 1.1 < 1.10 < 1.2 < 1.3 < 14e-1 < 9 < 1e2
  115. # [00:36] <Hixie> (http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20130214 covers some of this)
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  128. # [00:54] <zewt> part of it is that you're probably not going to find a single collation that suits all purposes (eg. the hex/exponent thing), so at some point it'll have to be "if you want this or that you have to use an alternate sort key"
  129. # [00:54] <zewt> eg. for ip addresses, just have a sort key of the ip address in decimal
  130. # [00:55] <zewt> not that I know which things it should and shouldn't handle, or which things are mutually incompatible with which other things
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  135. # [01:02] <GPHemsley> yeah, I mean, how often are you going to be sorting all of these things at the same time?
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  137. # [01:03] <GPHemsley> (and if you are, you might not want to do all this fancy parsing)
  138. # [01:04] <Hixie> zewt: yeah. i'm trying to make the default handle the most cases in isolation (e.g. ip addresses alone, floating point numbers alone)
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  140. # [01:05] <Hixie> zewt: the hard ones are when two identical sets of strings should sort differently, and that i have no way to solve, obviously
  141. # [01:05] <GPHemsley> it seems to me you might want to have an adaptive algorithm that decides between 1.0 < 1.1 = 1.10 < 1.11 < 1.9 and 1.0 < 1.1 < 1.9 < 1.10 < 1.11
  142. # [01:05] <Hixie> that's an interesting idea
  143. # [01:06] <Hixie> kind of score the suitability of various algorithms along all the values, and pick the one that scores highest?
  144. # [01:06] <GPHemsley> basically
  145. # [01:06] <Hixie> not sure how i'd tell the difference between those two that you listed if those were the values
  146. # [01:06] <GPHemsley> because 95% of the time, you're be sorting things all of the same type
  147. # [01:06] <Hixie> but hex you could detect
  148. # [01:06] <GPHemsley> well, if those were the only values, do float sort
  149. # [01:06] <GPHemsley> but if there's a 1.0.1 in there, do version sort
  150. # [01:06] <Hixie> this is an interesting idea
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  152. # [01:08] <GPHemsley> "<gsnedders> Well, I believe Presto has the most complete impl…"
  153. # [01:08] <Hixie> i think on reflection that changing algorithm is probably too surprising, but it's definitely an interesting idea i hadn't considered
  154. # [01:08] * Hixie ponders it further while getting a snack
  155. # [01:09] <GPHemsley> and version sort handles IP addresses, too
  156. # [01:09] <GPHemsley> it's basically the difference between treating the string as a single float or multiple ints separated by a .
  157. # [01:10] <GPHemsley> a possible outcome with this method (if you take it this far) is allowing further algorithm extensions for new types
  158. # [01:10] <GPHemsley> in the future
  159. # [01:12] <zewt> heuristic sorts? sounds really confusing
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  161. # [01:12] <GPHemsley> also, you want to make sure that when someone sees the output of a sort, they're not like "why did it sort like this?"
  162. # [01:12] <zewt> better to pick a default and give the author a way to pick a different collation method than be magic and have something that changes out from under you seemingly randomly
  163. # [01:13] <GPHemsley> i.e. no one should have to track Hixie down to find out the justification
  164. # [01:13] <GPHemsley> zewt: Well, it's only the most basic heuristic, I think
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  166. # [01:15] <GPHemsley> to be clear, 1.2e3 should never be [1, "2e3"]
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  168. # [01:15] <zewt> i mean, i don't think any kind of adaptive sort that picks between "1.10" being [1,10] and [1.1] depending on other values in the list would ever be not weird
  169. # [01:15] <GPHemsley> zewt: In >95% of the cases, you wouldn't even know the difference
  170. # [01:16] <zewt> especially since changing the value in row 10 might cause the sort to "re-adapt", and suddenly the order of rows 1 and 2 switch places
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  173. # [01:16] <zewt> being confusing 5% of the time is a lot
  174. # [01:16] <GPHemsley> basically, it'd be [1.1] unless "1.0.1" is encountered
  175. # [01:17] <GPHemsley> if it does change, it'd likely change in a more intuitive direction
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  178. # [01:17] <GPHemsley> meaning, if you have a list of version numbers, you wouldn't want them sorted such that 1.1 < 1.11 < 1.9
  179. # [01:17] <zewt> so if i have rows "1.0", "1.10", "1.2", they'd sort that way, then if i add another row "1.3.4", suddenly rows 1 and 2 switch positions
  180. # [01:18] <GPHemsley> that to me is a good thing
  181. # [01:18] <zewt> if you want 1.10 to sort as [1,10], then you probably *always* want it to do that for that column, not only if there happens to be a 1.3.4 item somewhere else
  182. # [01:18] <zewt> otherwise it'd be wrong when you don't happen to have that 1.3.4 row
  183. # [01:18] <GPHemsley> but the problem is determining between 1.1 = 1.10 and 1.1 < 1.10
  184. # [01:19] <GPHemsley> in some cases, it'll be the former; in others, the latter
  185. # [01:19] <zewt> right, and you simply can't decide if there doesn't happen to be a 3rd row saying "1.2.3"--when that row isn't there, you'll guess wrong
  186. # [01:19] <GPHemsley> exactly
  187. # [01:19] <zewt> which is why i'm saying adaptive is bad :)
  188. # [01:19] <GPHemsley> but you have to a have default
  189. # [01:20] <GPHemsley> which essentially means you have to "decide" without any information
  190. # [01:20] <zewt> right, i mean the sorting shouldn't be adaptive and it should just pick one
  191. # [01:20] <GPHemsley> then when you get (more) information, you can re-decide
  192. # [01:20] <zewt> if that isn't what you want for a particular case, you use explicit sort keys to get what you want
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  194. # [01:21] <GPHemsley> perhaps
  195. # [01:21] <GPHemsley> but how?
  196. # [01:21] <zewt> eg. if you have a release table with a version column, containing versions 1.0, 1.2 and 1.10, and you want them sorted in that order, then you'd provide alternate sort keys (forget the attribute name) containing eg. "1 1", "1 2" and "1 10"
  197. # [01:21] <GPHemsley> oh
  198. # [01:21] <GPHemsley> IDK about that
  199. # [01:21] <zewt> if you provide the alt sort key, it sorts based on that rather than the text of the field
  200. # [01:22] <GPHemsley> that's a lot of extra work
  201. # [01:22] <zewt> not really
  202. # [01:22] <GPHemsley> and that extra work isn't always possible
  203. # [01:22] <zewt> and you're going to need it no matter what you do
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  205. # [01:22] <GPHemsley> who is the "you" in this case?
  206. # [01:23] <GPHemsley> the author shouldn't have to specify two values for each cell
  207. # [01:23] <zewt> the browser vendor and the api
  208. # [01:23] <zewt> the author is going to have to, any time he wants a sort order we didn't think of already
  209. # [01:23] <zewt> trying to minimize where it's needed is fine, of course
  210. # [01:24] <Hixie> i'm with zewt on the larger point of the confusion caused by dynamically picking the sort algorithm here being too great, i think. it's an interesting idea though.
  211. # [01:24] <GPHemsley> what I'm saying is, we should give the author the ability to specify which algorithm to use with e.g. an attribute
  212. # [01:24] <GPHemsley> rather than forcing them to specify two values for each cell
  213. # [01:25] <GPHemsley> if you want to avoid that dynamic sorting change
  214. # [01:25] <Hixie> yeah, a feature to pick a specific algorithm is a fine idea
  215. # [01:25] <Hixie> (not one i'd do in v1, but in general)
  216. # [01:25] <GPHemsley> (though I wonder how often you're adding rows and sorting at the same time)
  217. # [01:25] <zewt> i don't mind there being different sort modes (you're going to have to fall back on sort keys at some point, though)
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  219. # [01:26] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Any time you do anything but lexical sort, you're gonna wind up with situations where the sorting is wrong, and perhaps in an unexpected way.
  220. # [01:26] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Which suggests to me that you might not want to put it off until v2
  221. # [01:27] <Hixie> nah, it's definitely not "any time"
  222. # [01:27] <GPHemsley> Hixie: At least not for the issue of how to handle numbers
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  224. # [01:27] <Hixie> the only common cases that will fail that i can think of cases where you have version numbers in different styles, or only two-part version numbers.
  225. # [01:27] <Hixie> well, that and hex in certain unlucky cases
  226. # [01:27] <zewt> unexpected isn't catastrophic, unpredictable or hard to understand are much worse
  227. # [01:27] <Hixie> both of which are pretty rare in the cosmic scale of things
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  229. # [01:29] <GPHemsley> I am concerned about a situation were the integers in a hex value cause hex values to be sorted non-alphabetically
  230. # [01:30] <Hixie> yeah i wish there was a good way to handle hex
  231. # [01:30] <Hixie> non-base-ten numbers just aren't going to work with what i have so far
  232. # [01:30] <GPHemsley> and I do think it'd be weird to have 1 < 1.10 < 1.9 < 1.10.1
  233. # [01:30] <zewt> personally i'd prefer to not support 1e10 in favor of hex sorting intuitively, personally i just don't see any value in it
  234. # [01:30] <GPHemsley> I'm inclined to agree
  235. # [01:31] <zewt> it's an easy thing to work around (specify a sort key of the value in decimal)
  236. # [01:31] <GPHemsley> yeah, I think that's an acceptable/appropriate usecase for having 2 values
  237. # [01:32] <GPHemsley> because it's not just a hack that is essentially having the information twice
  238. # [01:32] <GPHemsley> instead, the e notation is a shortcut of the decimal version
  239. # [01:32] <zewt> well, i meant you can specify the hex value in decimal
  240. # [01:33] <GPHemsley> oh
  241. # [01:33] <GPHemsley> that'd be kind of silly for, e.g. a hash
  242. # [01:33] <zewt> if you have 10e500000 (an extreme example) you can't reasonably specify a sort key in decimal
  243. # [01:33] <GPHemsley> true
  244. # [01:33] <zewt> (though iirc in a previous discussion there was a clever workaround for that, don't remember what it was off hand)
  245. # [01:33] <GPHemsley> but I think a hash is more likely than that
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  247. # [01:34] <GPHemsley> and a hash isn't commonly considered an integer
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  249. # [01:34] <GPHemsley> by which I mean, it'd be unintuitive to represent it as a decimal
  250. # [01:35] <zewt> a hash is just a number, the point of formatting as an integer is simply so it won't be sorted as a float
  251. # [01:35] <GPHemsley> I don't think everyone will see it that way
  252. # [01:35] <GPHemsley> (perception is reality)
  253. # [01:36] <zewt> people can be wrong, i'm not too concerned :)
  254. # [01:37] <GPHemsley> I think the number of people confused by a sort order changing when adding new rows to the table is smaller than the number of people who don't see a hash as an integer
  255. # [01:38] <zewt> i think it's orders of magnitude smaller
  256. # [01:38] <zewt> it's not only confusing, it's wrong
  257. # [01:38] <GPHemsley> "wrong" or not, perception is reality
  258. # [01:38] <zewt> it would actively choose the wrong sort order, then "fix" itself when you add more rows--that's just wrong
  259. # [01:38] <zewt> ... what?
  260. # [01:38] <GPHemsley> oh
  261. # [01:39] <GPHemsley> maybe we're not talking about the same thing?
  262. # [01:39] <GPHemsley> which "it" are you referring to?
  263. # [01:39] <zewt> adaptive sorting would give the wrong sort until you happen to give it a new row that makes it switch
  264. # [01:40] <GPHemsley> it is my understanding that it'd be wrong all the time without the adaptive sorting
  265. # [01:40] <zewt> if i have 1.1 1.2 1.10 2.1.5, and it sorts in that order (because the 2.1.5 kicks it into "version number mode"), if i then remove 2.1.5 it would drop back into "floating-point mode", which isn't (in this example) the sort order i want
  266. # [01:41] <zewt> wrong all the time is much better than being right only if you happen to have "2.1.5" in the list somewhere, then you'll have people going <td hidden>1.1.1.1</td><!-- trick the weird sort --> or something like that
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  268. # [01:42] <GPHemsley> I'm not sure I follow you
  269. # [01:42] <GPHemsley> why would they do that? what would be their intention?
  270. # [01:43] <zewt> because if the list happens to not contain 2.1.5, and they still want 1.1 1.2 1.10 ordering, they'd have to somehow get the sort back into that ordering
  271. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> oh, I see
  272. # [01:43] <zewt> if the logic is "sort like a version number if at least one row contains three or more integers separated by periods"
  273. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> right
  274. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> I thought you meant going the other way
  275. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> that's why I was confused
  276. # [01:44] <zewt> it'd be fine to have a sort order attribute somewhere to toggle it explicitly
  277. # [01:44] <GPHemsley> that was my argument
  278. # [01:45] <zewt> (personally i'd be more interested in a natural sort, but that's also something you can mostly do with sort keys, so not too concerned)
  279. # [01:46] <zewt> though it might be that a natural sort and a version sort would turn out to be the same thing (or could, with some effort)
  280. # [01:46] <GPHemsley> I do think it's weird to have "1.0" < "4.4e2e2" < "0.9e1" < "1000" < "10000.0" < "1.1.1" < "1.1.1.1"
  281. # [01:47] <zewt> i think a little weirdness isn't the end of the world, if it does well at a lot of realistic cases, though
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  283. # [01:48] <Hixie> clearly '1a' < '1b', and clearly ' 1'<'1'. But should ' 1b' be < or > than '1a'?
  284. # [01:48] <Hixie> i'm thinking >
  285. # [01:49] <zewt> in principle you could say that a number is only parsed as a float if it isn't followed by a period followed by non-whitespace (or something like that), so "Cost: $1.1." is a float but "1.1.A" is not; but not sure in the general case
  286. # [01:50] <GPHemsley> Hixie: '1' < ' 1' < ' 1b' < '1a' < '1b' ?
  287. # [01:51] <GPHemsley> oh no
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  289. # [01:51] <Hixie> ' 1'<'1'
  290. # [01:51] <GPHemsley> Hixie: ' 1' < ' 1b' < '1' < '1a' < '1b' ?
  291. # [01:51] <Hixie> you don't think leading spaces should be second class citizens?
  292. # [01:52] <GPHemsley> whatever they are, I think they should be treated equally in all cases, no?
  293. # [01:52] <Hixie> i'm thinking with one number you sort first by the prefix if it's not whitespace, then by the number, then by the suffix, then by the whitespace
  294. # [01:54] <GPHemsley> so you're saying ' 1' < '1' < '1a' < ' 1b' < '1b' ?
  295. # [01:54] <Hixie> yeah
  296. # [01:55] <GPHemsley> hmm, yeah, I guess that works
  297. # [01:55] <Hixie> how about ' 1.00' vs '1.0'? does the space win, or does the sorter string representing the number win?
  298. # [01:56] <Hixie> normally 1.0<1.00 and normally ' 1'<'1'
  299. # [01:56] <GPHemsley> '1.0' < ' 1.00'
  300. # [01:56] <GPHemsley> the space only works as a tie-breaker
  301. # [01:57] <Hixie> so no-WS-prefix, then number, then suffix, then number-as-string, then WS-prefix.
  302. # [01:57] <GPHemsley> 'use case' < 'usecase'
  303. # [01:57] <GPHemsley> (maybe?)
  304. # [01:57] <Hixie> where one of non-WS-prefix and WS-prefix is going to be the empty string
  305. # [01:58] <GPHemsley> so, '3rd' </> '3rd'?
  306. # [01:58] <GPHemsley> ugh
  307. # [01:58] <GPHemsley> so, '3.0rd' </> '3rd'?
  308. # [01:59] <Hixie> >
  309. # [01:59] <Hixie> because 3.0==3, 'rd'=='rd', but '3.0'>'3'.
  310. # [01:59] <GPHemsley> when does number-as-string come into play?
  311. # [01:59] <Hixie> after you've exhausted all other options
  312. # [01:59] <GPHemsley> example?
  313. # [01:59] <Hixie> except meaningless prefix whitespace
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  315. # [02:00] <Hixie> the case you gave is a perfect example
  316. # [02:00] <GPHemsley> oh, great
  317. # [02:00] <GPHemsley> so part of my brain understands
  318. # [02:00] <Hixie> hah
  319. # [02:00] <Hixie> i feel like i have made a poor career choice somewhere, for me to have ended up having to make the decisions i'm making today
  320. # [02:00] <GPHemsley> heh
  321. # [02:01] <Hixie> ah well, monday hixie can figure it out
  322. # [02:01] <Hixie> bbl
  323. # [02:01] <GPHemsley> so, '3nd' < '3rd' < '3.0rd' < ' 3nd' < ' 3rd' < ' 3.0rd'
  324. # [02:02] <GPHemsley> or
  325. # [02:03] <GPHemsley> ' 3nd' < '3nd' < ' 3rd' < '3rd' < ' 3.0rd' < '3.0rd'
  326. # [02:03] * GPHemsley has no idea
  327. # [02:03] <GPHemsley> my brain hurts
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  333. # [02:21] <tantek> GPHemsley, rather than worry about the syntax (for circa dates) let's keep collecting real world examples. syntax-shedding can always come later. that being said, feel free to post such syntax brainstorms in the comments for the proposal so we can at least collect them.
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  396. # [05:48] <karlcow> http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3t0ltf/
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  401. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> haha
  402. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> nice
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  412. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> is b2g multi-process?
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  442. # [10:02] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, yes, b2g has multiple processes
  443. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: for content?
  444. # [10:03] <Ms2ger> At least one parent/one child; I'm not clear on the details
  445. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> ok
  446. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> wondering why that couldn't be reused to provide per-tab processes for Firefox
  447. # [10:04] <Ms2ger> Ah
  448. # [10:04] <Ms2ger> Extensions
  449. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> oh
  450. # [10:05] <Ms2ger> That's one issue, at least
  451. # [10:05] <sangwhan> Is it a process per "application" on B2G?
  452. # [10:06] <Ms2ger> See above :)
  453. # [10:06] <sangwhan> I decipher that as one for the OS UI and one for the applications
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  456. # [10:07] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: it's harder to convert an existing browser to multi-process than to do it for a new one
  457. # [10:07] * sangwhan has been down the road of HTML powered mobile apps before, we used to call them widgets
  458. # [10:08] <othermaciej> (IMO anyway; I only have direct experience with the latter)
  459. # [10:08] <othermaciej> (er, the former I mean)
  460. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> in other news I'm trying to build Servo but the mozjs part of the build is failing with an "indirect goto might cross protected scopes" that appears to be the exactly the same bug as https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=664252 which was resolved=fixed in 2011... :(
  461. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah I can imagine
  462. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> you guys did it for WebKit2 and Safari though, right?
  463. # [10:09] <sangwhan> Making a existing browser sensibly multi-process isn't easy. There are ultra dirty ways to do it though...
  464. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> I guess for Safari you don't have the Extensions problem to deal with
  465. # [10:10] <othermaciej> Safari has extensions
  466. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> oh
  467. # [10:10] <othermaciej> some of our extensions APIs were not designed well for multiprocess
  468. # [10:10] <othermaciej> but there is more of a defined API than for Firefox extensions
  469. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> I guess the other thing is that Firefox extensions seem to be allowed to do just about anything
  470. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> I mean they can get pretty deep down
  471. # [10:13] <Ms2ger> Rather too deep :/
  472. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> "decisions that seem incredibly clear in the near term… don’t always seem so clear several years later"
  473. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> https://blog.mozilla.org/gen/2013/02/15/john-lillys-thoughts-on-opera-moving-to-webkit/
  474. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> seems apt
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  476. # [10:17] <othermaciej> is this the best reference for mime sniffing?
  477. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> hmm maybe the Servo build is meant to be run with gcc instead of clang?
  478. # [10:17] <othermaciej> yes, Safari's extensions, like Chrome's are more shallow
  479. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> shallow seems prudent
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  487. # [10:33] <sangwhan> MikeSmith: You naive person, you default to clang?
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  489. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> Spidermonkey should build just fine with clang...
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  491. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> filed a Servo bug
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  494. # [10:40] <sangwhan> not up to date with www-style, is css3 generated content a dumped spec?
  495. # [10:42] * sangwhan found some testcases that depend on the content property to visually display a pass
  496. # [10:43] <Ms2ger> element { content: "foo" }?
  497. # [10:43] <Ms2ger> Nobody supports that
  498. # [10:44] <sangwhan> ...with a exception of Presto.
  499. # [10:45] <Ms2ger> As I said :)
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  501. # [10:46] <sangwhan> I don't quite see any negative effects of supporting it though
  502. # [10:47] <sangwhan> ...although being able to do insane stuff like what's defined in css3 generated content doesn't sound fun to implement
  503. # [10:47] <Ms2ger> The usual, lack of engineering recourses and compat issues
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  543. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> > document.createElement("image").localName
  544. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> "img"
  545. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> Yay, Chrome.
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  573. # [15:46] <gsnedders> No, no, I will not bitch at people talking about asm.js cluelessly.
  574. # [15:46] <gsnedders> PEOPLE, STOP BEING WRONG ON THE INTERNET!
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  593. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> slightlyoff: wtf are you talking about with the wpa2 tweet who even knows what wpa2 is
  594. # [17:38] <slightlyoff> MikeSmith: uhhh....some people, I guess?
  595. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> well I understood it but I don't think I count
  596. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> anyway, 140 chars
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  629. # [20:00] * Ms2ger loves that the CSSWG preprocessor uses ul instead of ol for its tocs
  630. # [20:04] <boogyman> TOCs do not imply a specific order
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  633. # [20:18] <zewt> they don't? heh
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  663. # [22:46] * abarth|zZz is now known as abarth
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  678. # [23:59] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@80-219-209-3.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Remote host closed the connection)
  679. # Session Close: Sun Feb 17 00:00:00 2013

The end :)