/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-19 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Feb 19 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [01:28] <zewt> a "json working group"?
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# [02:08] <GPHemsley> are there things json is missing?
# [02:09] <hober> technically the json rfc is informational; i guess a wg could re-publish it with no changes except to put it on the standards track.
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# [02:22] <zewt> doesn't seem like there are actually any problems to solve, heh
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# [02:50] <GPHemsley> Process sure is silly sometimes.
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# [08:10] <annevk> https://twitter.com/sgalineau/status/303641007151525888 hehe
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# [09:33] <jgraham> darobin: Just heard from the guy that wrote much of our DnD testsuite
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# [09:34] * darobin can't help thinking he should roll some dice when it's put that way
# [09:34] <jgraham> He described reorganising it to fit with the structure in the DND folder as "unrealistic"
# [09:34] <darobin> with some justification, or just because?
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# [09:34] <jgraham> darobin: Indeed, roll 2 d20 and if they land you hit a bug in an implementation
# [09:35] <jgraham> I think because of the sheer number of tests
# [09:35] <darobin> mmmmm
# [09:35] <darobin> lemme look
# [09:37] <darobin> I see
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# [09:37] <darobin> jgraham: well, dnd is a rather coherent feature
# [09:37] <darobin> I have no problem with its subsections being empty, and the whole TS being under html/editing/dnd/
# [09:38] <darobin> (with the subdirs from your friend)
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# [09:39] <jgraham> And leave the empty structure for people to use if they add new tests?
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# [09:41] <jgraham> In other news, I think that there must be some comedy mileage to get out of hsivonen being mistaken for a TAG member
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# [09:42] <jgraham> I'm just not sure what it is
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# [09:42] <marcosc> I don't know why hsivonen isn't a TAG member, really.
# [09:42] <marcosc> (apart from his time having value :) )
# [09:43] <marcosc> Question: would it be a bad thing to attempt to describe a JSON structure using a WebIDL dictionary?
# [09:44] <jgraham> Probably, yes
# [09:45] <marcosc> The type conversion from WebIDL seems like a nice thing... I guess I could describe the structure using JSON schema, but I'm having NIH syndrome :)
# [09:46] <marcosc> Otherwise, there is always that prose gibberish :)
# [09:47] <jgraham> Well I guess if the JSON is sufficiently simple and regular it could work
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# [09:56] <marcosc> jgraham: it's mostly strings and a couple of numbers. I figure, then authors can have the freedom to write, for example: {"height": "200"} or {"height": 200} without being yelled at.
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# [09:57] <marcosc> dictionary{ unsinged short height; } could then handle the string to number conversion
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# [10:04] <annevk> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=You+may+not+create+a+link+to+this+website+from+another+website+or+document+without+prior+written+consent&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&safe=on holy shit
# [10:05] <annevk> people be crazy
# [10:06] <marcosc> scary!
# [10:06] <marcosc> We should link to all those sites :)
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# [10:22] <a-ja> <img longdesc="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=You+may+not+create+a+link+to+this+website+from+another+website+or+document+without+prior+written+consent&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&safe=on"/>
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# [10:29] <marcosc> a-ja, please don't link to that link, as they don't want you linking to google that contains the link to their site :P
# [10:29] <marcosc> I hope google got prior written consent from all those people
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# [10:56] <annevk> darobin: Editing requires a ton of research? I thought you already had a fulltime job?
# [10:56] <darobin> annevk: my fulltime job is to make this whole pile of crap better
# [10:57] <darobin> I focused a fair bit on testing over the past weeks, but now that there's tobie I can probably take on something extra
# [10:57] <annevk> I'm just saying, fixing editing is a fulltime job by itself
# [10:57] <darobin> yeah, I know it's a long-haul issue
# [10:57] <darobin> but it's not like people are rushing in the volunteer
# [10:58] <darobin> s/the/to/
# [10:58] <darobin> and it's a feature I care about
# [10:58] <Ms2ger> It's mostly implementing now, isn't it?
# [10:58] <darobin> there are still discrepancies
# [10:59] <darobin> and they tend to be ugly
# [10:59] <darobin> but Aryeh's done a great job moving it forward
# [10:59] <annevk> Ms2ger: well and the wave of maintenance that creates, plus maybe adding new things? I haven't followed the work in detail at all though :(
# [11:00] <Ms2ger> Sure
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# [11:00] <Ms2ger> But with nobody actively implementing, I don't think there's a whole lot of useful work to do on editing right now
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# [11:00] <darobin> actually the thread started because Microsoft is implementing
# [11:01] <annevk> Is Alex still on the IE Team though?
# [11:01] <darobin> "I am working on editing in IE, have issues of various scale"
# [11:01] <annevk> heh oops
# [11:02] <annevk> I guess he just stopped being chief layout
# [11:02] <darobin> well as you said editing is a big chunk
# [11:02] <darobin> so maybe he's chief editing now :)
# [11:02] <annevk> Alex uses interesting email software
# [11:02] <annevk> He emails to annevk@annevk.nl, but inline it says ± From: annevankesteren@gmail.com
# [11:02] <Ms2ger> I thought he was smarter than letting someone make him chief editing ;)
# [11:03] <a-ja> Scorecards! Get your scorecards...
# [11:03] <jgraham> Isn't being made cheif of editing like being fired, but more subtle?
# [11:03] <annevk> Ms2ger: looks like maybe you should define DocumentFragment.innerHTML after all
# [11:03] <Ms2ger> Fun
# [11:04] <Ms2ger> Let me know when Hixie's defined how it parses :)
# [11:04] <jgraham> *chief
# [11:04] <annevk> Ms2ger: at some point we should just merge domparsing into dom
# [11:04] <Ms2ger> brb
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# [12:33] <JibberJim> Does Safari have a public bug repo?
# [12:34] <JibberJim> I'm guessing not, got a video element bug on iOS and I suspect it's been raised as it's trivially obvious.
# [12:34] <darobin> JibberJim: https://bugreport.apple.com/
# [12:35] <darobin> you won't like it though :)
# [12:36] <JibberJim> yeah - non public though right...
# [12:37] <JibberJim> If they want bug reports, showing the listed ones would be helpful.
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# [12:38] <darobin> well if they don't want to help you not submit dupes, it's their problem to sort that out
# [12:38] <darobin> if it's a WebKit bug you can use the WebKit tracker, of course
# [12:39] <JibberJim> Or I just won't submit it :)
# [12:41] <JibberJim> javascript, cookies, apple id... recommend me use a browser I don't even have.
# [12:41] <darobin> yeah, it's all a lovely process
# [12:42] <darobin> you have iOS though, maybe it works on Mobile Safari
# [12:43] <darobin> I'm sure it's a great experience
# [12:44] <annevk> whoa, I'm in for two years on the TAG?
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# [12:48] <darobin> annevk: no, I think you're in for one year
# [12:50] <jgraham> But don't worry you can always go for re-election!
# [12:50] <darobin> actually there's an error on http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/
# [12:50] <darobin> all of the four horsemen are listed as having a two year term
# [12:50] <darobin> but one of them got my seat, which was only up for one year
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# [13:21] <annevk> darobin: yeah, I was looking at that page
# [13:22] <darobin> annevk: I reported the presumed bug, I'll let you know how long you'll actually spend in the salt mines
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# [13:51] <annevk> hsivonen: What in particular strikes me as weird is that we had Appendix C and that MIME type guidance document. And they utterly failed. And now there's Polyglot, which is more complex, and people expect it to succeed?
# [13:55] <darobin> people expect polyglot to succeed?
# [13:55] <annevk> Oh that thread is great. Jonas Sicking rallying for pouring resources into XHTML :-)
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# [13:58] <annevk> http://www.clinet.fi/~henris/ Ah, at one point hsivonen also used first-name-first-last-name-letter...
# [14:06] <MikeSmith> Zach Kuznia implementing Streams API https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2013-February/023928.html
# [14:06] <hsivonen> I like brucel's lorem ipsum: <div>Bob Smith said at <a href="#permalink1">9.55 on 31 Febtember</a>: Can I use DRM in Polyglot documents?</div>
# [14:06] <hsivonen> <div>Hixie said at <a href="#permalink2">9.57 on 1 June</a>: What's your use case?</div>
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# [14:08] <Ms2ger> Clearly those should be p's, though
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# [15:03] <MikeSmith> so I finally managed to get Servo to build but when I try to view the ../src/test/about-mozilla.html page I just get moji bake
# [15:03] <MikeSmith> garbage text
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# [15:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: maybe ask in #developers on irc.mozilla.org?
# [15:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok
# [15:05] <MikeSmith> or actually I guess I should just complain in the #servo channel there
# [15:06] <annevk> ah
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# [15:08] <MikeSmith> also never did manage to get mozjs to compile with clang. but maybe that's because I was pointing it at the clang from Chromium, and it detected that and failed on purpose
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# [15:10] <MikeSmith> is the format of Mozilla .manifest files documented somewhere?
# [15:10] <MikeSmith> nm I'll ask on #developers
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# [15:22] <annevk> Hixie: you still want seamless <iframe> event thingies right?
# [15:22] * annevk takes another look at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#event-retargeting
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# [15:48] <annevk> So how does http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/EventTarget.cpp#L150 walk the tree?
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# [15:53] <annevk> I guess that logic is in http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/EventDispatcher.cpp
# [15:56] <bijan> Hi ho, I have an MSc student who's project is to independently implement the HTML5 parsing algorithm. We've gotten a bit confused by character reference tokenization. For data character references, such as: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#character-reference-in-data-state
# [15:56] <bijan> The first step is to switch back to the Data state.
# [15:56] <bijan> Whereas in attribute values switching back to the calling state is the last step: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#character-reference-in-attribute-value-state
# [15:57] <bijan> Is this meaningful? We were having trouble making the machine work in the first case.
# [15:57] <bijan> (I.e., since switching back to the data state seems to interrupt the reference consumption.)
# [15:57] <jgraham> bijan: Switching states doesn't do anything until you return to the main loop
# [15:58] <bijan> Is this documented somewhere per se?
# [15:58] <jgraham> So you switch the state that will be used for processing when the tokenizer is next call, but proceed with the remainder of the steps in the current state
# [15:58] <bijan> Why then the "finally" in the attribute value?
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# [15:59] <bijan> Yeah, that's the only thing that made sense, but the attribute value state suggested otherwise :)
# [15:59] <jgraham> I don't know why the style is different in the two cases, but I don't think it's meaningful
# [16:00] <bijan> Ok. Thanks.
# [16:01] <jgraham> What kind of implementation are you doing (i.e. which language, will it be Open Source, etc.)?
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# [16:01] <volkmar> marcosc: the intent of your app: URI scheme spec is to have it integrated in the runtime spec or keep it outside of it?
# [16:01] <jgraham> Oh well, I guess I'll never know
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# [16:06] <annevk> And http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/EventRetargeter.cpp#L75 seems to contain stuff now in the Shadow DOM spec...
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# [16:07] <annevk> bijan: feel free to file bugs on stylistic differences though
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# [16:07] <darobin> bijan: did you see jgraham's question before... oh damn
# [16:10] <jgraham> Heh
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# [16:13] <odinho> bijan: Did you see jgraham's question?
# [16:13] <annevk> And with "now" above I meant "not"
# [16:14] <annevk> E.g. checking whether a node's an SVG element does not happen
# [16:14] <bijan> I did, but my reply got eated: At the moment they are doing an initial prototype in Java to learn the algorithm. Then they'll select a language which doesn't have a native parser and supply one.
# [16:14] <bijan> 15:04
# [16:14] <bijan> Open source, yes. I hope
# [16:14] <jgraham> bijan: Cool
# [16:14] <odinho> I know some people that'd be happy to get a nice one in C. :-)
# [16:15] <jgraham> Yeah, the greatest benefit to humanity would be one written in C using the libxml2 infrastructure
# [16:15] <jgraham> But of course the project might have different goals
# [16:15] <odinho> Hububb didn't embed easily, and had too many errors, - python-html5lib worked very well, but was way too slow.
# [16:16] <odinho> jgraham: Yeah, good point. Absolutely.
# [16:16] <marcosc> volkmar, I don't mind
# [16:17] <marcosc> mounir ^^
# [16:17] <marcosc> Having separate docs is easier for me to edit
# [16:17] <marcosc> (they could then be all combined into one big mama doc)
# [16:18] <marcosc> Less overhead when there are multiple editors, etc.
# [16:22] <bijan> Well, C is a possibility, but the current leader is Smalltalk :)
# [16:24] <annevk> bijan: no wonder people keep bringing up the university-industry mismatch :-)
# [16:25] <bijan> Well, pedagogic reasons
# [16:26] <darobin> JavaScript would be sweet :)
# [16:27] <jgraham> darobin: Write it in C am emscripten will give you a js one for free :)
# [16:27] <jgraham> *and
# [16:27] <darobin> jgraham: how about write it in JS and asm.js will give you C speed free? :)
# [16:27] <jgraham> (also, I think js has been done)
# [16:27] <darobin> you're thinking of jsdom or another one?
# [16:28] <jgraham> That's not really how asm.js works…
# [16:28] <mounir> marcosc: I also prefer separated docs but it seems hard in that case to have app: making sense will fully separated from packaged apps definition
# [16:28] <darobin> jgraham: I know, but a girl can dream right?
# [16:28] <jgraham> It depends which girl, I guess?
# [16:28] <darobin> not all girls dream of asm.js?
# [16:29] <jgraham> annevk: Dude they are starting in Java. How much more "industry" can you get?
# [16:29] <darobin> I thought I heard that 50 Shades of Grey made asm so popular and all
# [16:29] <annevk> jgraham: hehe
# [16:29] <marcosc> mounir: where do you see potential conflicts?
# [16:29] <darobin> "prototyping in Java" — hadn't heard that one before :)
# [16:30] <jgraham> A proper academic implementation would be in Coq and would be accompanied by a proof of correctness
# [16:30] <mounir> marcosc: not conflicts just that "app:" scheme will be strongly liked with the app spec and the app spec with the "app:" scheme
# [16:31] <annevk> http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/EventRetargeter.cpp#L41 o_O
# [16:31] <mounir> marcosc: anyway, we will see, I would be fine with including the document in the behemoth spec and having the work being done separatedly and synchronized
# [16:31] <annevk> Man this Shadow DOM code is full of hacks
# [16:31] <marcosc> mounir: that sounds good. I can put in the appropriate hooks as we need to.
# [16:32] <mounir> marcosc: will likely include the current version in my draft though if you don't mind (manually for the moment)
# [16:32] <marcosc> mounir: not at all. Go for it :)
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# [16:36] <bijan> "prototyping in Java" —> the student knows Java but will have to get comfy with the target language
# [16:36] <darobin> jgraham: re HTML parser in JS though, do you know which one you're thinking of?
# [16:36] <marcosc> mounir: it would be nice if we could do the same thing with the manifest format and definition. I wouldn't mind spec'ing that part out.
# [16:36] <darobin> because I don't believe that node-htmlparser is anywhere near the spec
# [16:36] <darobin> and jsdom is flaky at best
# [16:37] <jgraham> darobin: No, it was just a feeling
# [16:37] <darobin> it does weird things with /> for instance
# [16:37] <darobin> I don't think there's a compliant one
# [16:37] <jgraham> Could have been one of those
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# [16:37] <mounir> marcosc: what do you want to change here?
# [16:38] <mounir> we had a standalone spec for that in the past
# [16:38] <mounir> but as we said in the mailing list, it's hard to make this independ
# [16:38] <marcosc> mounir: want to lay out all the JSON members into their own sections. Want to add processing model.
# [16:38] <mounir> independent from the rest of the spec
# [16:38] <mounir> marcosc: processing model?
# [16:39] <marcosc> mounir: you JSON.parse(), but then you need to do all type checking.
# [16:39] <marcosc> like, what happens if "height": "200px" ?
# [16:40] <marcosc> or height: " 200 "
# [16:40] <marcosc> and so on
# [16:41] <marcosc> mounir: there are also some funny things, like: "Icons must be square"
# [16:41] <marcosc> :)
# [16:41] <mounir> oh
# [16:41] <annevk> don't be a square
# [16:42] <slightlyoff> OH HAI annevk
# [16:42] <annevk> hey hey
# [16:42] <slightlyoff> sorry for being seemingly AWOL...detour on Future design...sigh
# [16:43] <annevk> no worries, I'm sure it won't be a matter of days
# [16:43] * marcosc notes that the recent meteor in Russia was God's anger towards delays on DOMFuture
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# [16:44] <sangwhan> any sane reason to use eval() in favor of JSON.parse()? been trying to think of a good reason
# [16:44] <annevk> sangwhan: only insane
# [16:44] <jgraham> No
# [16:45] <sangwhan> i'll go ahead and assume it's human stupidity
# [16:49] <sangwhan> https://github.com/glow/glow1/blob/master/src/data/data.js#L356
# [16:50] <zewt> (really hoping this "futures" stuff doesn't end up in the platform; it's so ugly and unnecessary)
# [16:51] * darobin thought the meteor in Russia was God's anger with NavCon not being public yet
# [16:51] <MikeSmith> haha
# [16:52] <zewt> https://github.com/slightlyoff/DOMFuture/blob/master/reworked_APIs/WebCrytpo/example/after.html <- this is pretty horrifying
# [16:52] <slightlyoff> zewt: I take it you saw the before?
# [16:52] <slightlyoff> zewt: it's better
# [16:53] <slightlyoff> there's no implicit end-of-turn oriented control flow
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# [16:53] <darobin> sangwhan: actually, at a quick scan, it's looking like that "glow" code (whatever that is) is using the old school JSON-regex trick
# [16:53] <zewt> assumed "before" was just a traditional API, so didn't look at it
# [16:53] <darobin> which is what was done for browsers that don't support JSON
# [16:54] <zewt> yeah, that's just a regular event model, much more in line with the platform
# [16:54] <sangwhan> darobin: i was just wondering why JSON.parse() isn't the default and that being the fallback
# [16:54] <darobin> sangwhan: is it possible this was written a while ago?
# [16:55] <darobin> without looking closely it looks like best practice from some years ago
# [16:55] <darobin> there's a regex you can use on JSON to validate that it's sane, after which eval() is safe
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# [16:55] <zewt> darobin: not that it makes it feel safe
# [16:55] <zewt> heh
# [16:55] <darobin> so it might be old rather than stupid
# [16:55] <zewt> (bruce schneier wouldn't be happy with me for saying that)
# [16:57] <sangwhan> darobin: looks like the last update was 4 years ago
# [16:57] <darobin> sangwhan: there you go
# [16:58] <zewt> i've actually had to write JSON serializers in the last year :|
# [16:58] <zewt> (in c#, iirc, for Unity)
# [16:58] <zewt> seems strange to be in any environment today that doesn't provide it
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# [16:59] <marcosc> mounir: the problem with the way the current manifest side of things is written is that it mixes a lot (vendor specific) authoring requirements with the definition of the JSON members.
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# [17:00] <zewt> also I couldn't find any good, freely-licensed code to do it, which was even stranger (there were like 10 implementations I found, all of which er were either "no commercial use", gpl, or catastrophically bad code)
# [17:01] <mounir> marcosc: any example?
# [17:01] <marcosc> mounir: well, the MUST be square was one... there is also:
# [17:02] <marcosc> stuff in there about length of names, and descriptions
# [17:03] <mounir> marcosc: TBH, I have no idea if that's vendor specific
# [17:03] <mounir> I took that part of the spec from anant who might have done it this way beacuse of our implementation (I really have no idea)
# [17:03] <mounir> but I guess having some limits is a good thing
# [17:03] <marcosc> mounir: I'm happy to check that stuff
# [17:04] <mounir> saying "the description SHOULD NOT be too long" isn't ideal
# [17:04] <mounir> putting a limit might help authors
# [17:04] <mounir> though, we can also expect the UA to deal with long descriptions
# [17:04] <mounir> I do not really care
# [17:04] <marcosc> mounir: I'm mostly interested in runtime behaviour
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# [17:06] <marcosc> otherwise, we have a whole bunch of arbitrary enforcement points in the spec that shouldn't be there. Long descriptions should be trimmed down elsewhere (or there may be a valid reason for the long description).
# [17:06] <marcosc> same with the name
# [17:06] <marcosc> etc.
# [17:06] <marcosc> mounir: it's kinda like saying in HTML, paragraphs SHOULD NOT be over 1000 characters
# [17:07] <marcosc> reasonable, but o_O :)
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# [17:11] <marcosc> moj
# [17:11] <SimonSapin> marcosc: 1000 is a bit small, but 640K ought to be enough for anybody
# [17:11] <marcosc> exactly :)
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# [17:13] <sangwhan> i share that pain of not being able to find good, freely licensed code to do a certain thing, i had that problem with mersenne twister a while ago
# [17:15] <mounir> marcosc: we need a ticketing system
# [17:15] <mounir> I would gladly fix that
# [17:15] <marcosc> mounir: I'd like to define the members of the manifest more like it's done in HTML. More like this (without the silly blue background, of course): http://jsbin.com/izewal/1/
# [17:15] <mounir> marcosc: and have another part defining the behaviour I guess
# [17:16] <marcosc> right, or we can define the processing algorithms for each member as part of their definition.
# [17:17] <hsivonen> bijan: unfortunately, the spec takes shortcuts with CDATA sections and entities. Splitting those into states is left as an exercise to the reader.
# [17:18] <marcosc> mounir: like, with default_locale, there needs to be a check that the value is a valid language tag.
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# [17:20] <marcosc> mounir: regarding ticketing, we should just use GH issues
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# [17:22] <mounir> GH issues are terrible
# [17:23] <mounir> I would prefer bugzilla
# [17:23] <mounir> but I guess the group seems to be enclined to use GH
# [17:23] <jgraham> I have no idea what you are talking about, but I concur that GH issues are terrible
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# [17:27] <marcosc> mounir, jgraham, I agree. There are some "limitations" :)
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# [17:28] <marcosc> some of which are easy to work around
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# [17:31] <MikeSmith> bugzilla sucks but GH issues sucks way more
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# [17:33] <sangwhan> GH issues is better than Google Code, although that doesn't say much
# [17:34] <MikeSmith> rubbing two sticks together to make fire is better than Google Code
# [17:34] <sangwhan> although haven't seen anything that's as pleasant to use as JIRA
# [17:34] <sangwhan> one downside is that you possibly need a monster server to run it
# [17:34] * marcosc writes "Github issues VS Bugzilla" into his little book of religious wars.
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# [17:37] <bijan> hsivonen, thanks for the heads up.
# [17:37] <jgraham> Woah, Jira and "pleasant to use" in the same sentence, without negation?
# [17:38] <karlcow> "<darobin> without looking closely it looks like best practice from some years ago" hmmm Interesting statement to keep in mind. :)
# [17:38] * jgraham guesses sangwhan used eval() to parse JSON
# [17:38] <jgraham> ;)
# [17:38] <jgraham> *uses
# [17:38] <dglazkov> good morning, WhatWg!
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# [17:38] <darobin> JIRA???
# [17:38] <darobin> hahahahahahahaha
# [17:38] * sangwhan likes JIRA
# [17:39] <slightlyoff> howdy dglazkov
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# [17:40] <darobin> bugzilla could be okay if it weren't so slow
# [17:40] <darobin> and a little CSS wouldn't hurt either
# [17:40] <sangwhan> Bugzilla is nice too, but there are some annoyances when you try to customize the workflow
# [17:40] <jgraham> I hate all issue trackers
# [17:40] <darobin> you are very polite sangwhan
# [17:40] <darobin> I'm with jgraham
# [17:40] <jgraham> Or, at least, all the ones I have ever used
# [17:41] <sangwhan> JIRA is a pain to customize (the admin ui is not that great) but you _can_ get it done
# [17:41] <sangwhan> without having to hack the code, which becomes a massive pain to maintain later
# [17:41] <darobin> issue trackers, mail clients, and a long list of other pieces of software that everyone seems to get wrong
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# [17:41] <sangwhan> there is only one true mail client, and it's alpine. i just happen to not use it.
# [17:41] <darobin> all I recall from JIRA was the long list of bookmarklets I had just to work around its UI bugs
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# [17:42] <karlcow> the back of my bank statement envelop is my best issues tracker, though not practical for sharing with others.
# [17:43] <jgraham> Jira really hates you changing issues. The default view is read-only, yhou have to go to a special "edit" page. Unless you want to make certain changes, which require a different page
# [17:43] <karlcow> It is working also with electricity bills envelops
# [17:43] <jgraham> At least in our rather old Jira
# [17:43] <sangwhan> jgraham: sadly, that hasn't changed in JIRA 4 at least
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# [17:44] <sangwhan> jgraham: and yes, it's annoying. i don't notice it that much because i only comment and resolve :)
# [17:44] <jgraham> Oh and the search UI is a <redacted>
# [17:44] <karlcow> :)
# [17:45] <jgraham> And it periodically forgets your search results
# [17:45] <jgraham> and you can't search by URI
# [17:45] <sangwhan> i don't think bugzilla's search ui is that much better though.
# [17:45] <marcosc> mounir: any idea why the manifest format has "appcache_path"? Why not use the one in the HTML file?
# [17:45] <jgraham> Or even by URL
# [17:45] <karlcow> may I add the… <redacted> SOAP API for creating non browser clients.
# [17:45] <MikeSmith> is Jira 4 the new BTS 3?
# [17:45] * jgraham should stop now
# [17:45] <sangwhan> BTS3 = JIRA3
# [17:45] <mounir> marcosc: this is for hosted applications
# [17:46] <mounir> so we can install the appcache data while installing the application
# [17:46] <mounir> to give a better offline e
# [17:46] <mounir> experience
# [17:46] <sangwhan> JIRA4 i've dealt with in other projects (apache/skype/adobe uses it)
# [17:47] <mounir> marcosc: we have plans to have a new appcache manifest in JSON and that would allow to have the full manifest description here (but that's not really a short term goal)
# [17:47] <marcosc> mounir: I see
# [17:47] <sangwhan> karlcow: i recall giving up with soap and parsing the html for my non-browser client :P
# [17:47] <karlcow> heh
# [17:48] <darobin> annevk: I can confirm that you're only on the TAG for one year
# [17:48] <darobin> at the end of this year, I suggest you rerun with Henry on a Polyglot ticket
# [17:48] <marcosc> heh
# [17:48] <mounir> darobin: I've heard that the change of affiliation would have that effect anyway
# [17:49] <darobin> mounir: huh?
# [17:49] <marcosc> annevk's change of affiliation basically makes him a polyglot
# [17:50] <marcosc> I think that is what mounir means
# [17:51] <MikeSmith> sangwhan: wait Jira is not same BTS code that Jesper was working on for 25 years at Opera, right? He wrote it after he left
# [17:51] <mounir> for me polyglot is someone speaking many languages, not sure about annevk ;)
# [17:51] <jgraham> Maybe zcorpan should run on a polygot html/javascript ticket (see e.g. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/0a4f622868eb/Workers/tests/submissions/Opera/constructors/Worker/AbstractWorker.onerror.html). Pretty sure slightlyoff would approve of the coming together of W3C/TC39 that would imply :)
# [17:52] <sangwhan> MikeSmith: I have my suspicions that code is now with the same company that wrote JIRA, but possibly not in the form of JIRA.
# [17:52] <sangwhan> http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/technical-reference-intel-html5-app-porter-tool-beta
# [17:53] <sangwhan> Interesting idea, probably wouldn't use it myself
# [17:56] <MikeSmith> sangwhan: the best feature of the html5 tool is the part where it converts Xcode projects in Visual Studio projects
# [17:56] <slightlyoff> jgraham: I enjoy that you put real work into trolling. zewt just tells you that new stuff isn't what he's used to...you really sink your teeth into it.
# [17:57] <sangwhan> MikeSmith: because who wouldn't love to write HTML in visual studio
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# [17:59] <slightlyoff> sangwhan: actually...it's quite good for that these days.
# [17:59] <bijan> Hmm. Are these documents really polyglot or are they expressed in a pidgin.
# [17:59] <marcosc> MikeSmith: I knew a dude that did that. All the Opera standards support docs were done that way :)
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# [17:59] <jgraham> That counts as trolling now? Either internet standards are slipping or I badly need to recalibrate my "lighthearted satire" mode.
# [18:00] <sangwhan> slightlyoff: I still have to use VS2005/VS2008, as the EVC compiler was nuked in 2010+
# [18:00] <bijan> Polyglot applies to people, right? I.e., multilingual speakers that speak more than 3 languages (typically)
# [18:00] <slightlyoff> you can side-by-side that, right?
# [18:00] <sangwhan> if you have a license, yes :)
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# [18:01] <marcosc> bijan: sure. But that sense of the word is no fun to make fun of.
# [18:01] * sangwhan is a stone age caveman, still uses textmate 1 for any html/css/js code
# [18:01] <bijan> I guess "Pidgin XHTML" doesn't sound so very cool.
# [18:02] <marcosc> heh, that sounds way better than polyglot!
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# [18:02] * bijan wonders who miscoined it and if they regret polluting the meaning
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# [18:03] <marcosc> a polyglot sounds like something I would chew to throw a math teacher
# [18:03] * sangwhan is looking at vs2012 in the meanwhile, just not to be biased
# [18:03] <bijan> That's a "polysnot", i.e., what your parrot sneezed on you
# [18:03] <jgraham> Surely if you take a pigin and make a standard, it become a creole?
# [18:03] <marcosc> :)
# [18:04] * marcosc slowly backs away from this now...
# [18:04] <sangwhan> http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/ is a blank page in Opera(Presto). Joy.
# [18:04] <bijan> Hmm. I guess. But I thought creoles were independent languages
# [18:04] <bijan> "Polyglot" HTML is always parasitic on the parent languages
# [18:05] <jgraham> I guess
# [18:05] <jgraham> But once you have a standard you have "native speakers"
# [18:05] <bijan> I guess if people "speak it" nativity then it's a creole
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# [18:05] <bijan> But that could happen pre standard
# [18:06] <darobin> now let's round up this discussion of language variations by digging into how to capture their media types properly
# [18:06] <bijan> text/html+pidginxml
# [18:06] <darobin> I like that one
# [18:07] <darobin> text/html+pidginxml;version=whatwg-creole works too
# [18:07] <darobin> (I forgot I also wanted to bring version indicators into the chat)
# [18:08] <bijan> Interesting, polyglot documents suggest use of non-polyglot parsers
# [18:09] <MikeSmith> polyglot is an elaborate troll conceived by the TAG consigliere in collusion with a faction within the HTML WG chairs
# [18:09] <Ms2ger> There are no polyglot parsers
# [18:09] <bijan> I.e., either HTML5 native or XTHML5/XML based parsers, but not something that could consume either
# [18:09] <Ms2ger> And that's my limit of one sentence about polyglot a week
# [18:09] <bijan> Sure there are, at least easily bolted together
# [18:09] <bijan> Depends on where you put the parser boundary :)
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# [18:19] <MikeSmith> somebody needs to provide the punchline for dude's "Many sites use conneg to treat mobile as a completely separate problem" comment
# [18:21] <MikeSmith> "I develop for the long haul, not what works best today"
# [18:23] <MikeSmith> I think that proves this guy in on the troll
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# [18:36] <karlcow> ahaha
# [18:36] <karlcow> first reference on w3c mailing list with regards to html is made by… drum… hixie.
# [18:37] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0301.html
# [18:37] <karlcow> We could, if people really want to continue the ridiculous practice of
# [18:37] <karlcow> writing polyglot documents, allow lang="" in HTML documents, thus
# [18:37] <karlcow> providing a conforming way to set the language that is allowed in both
# [18:37] <karlcow> forms.
# [18:37] <karlcow> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:12:39 +0000 (UTC)
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# [18:39] <Ms2ger> zewt, so did you write a high-quality, freely licensed JSON serializer library for C#? ;)
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# [18:46] <zewt> Ms2ger: unfortunately I needed it for work, so it was only one of those things
# [18:47] <Ms2ger> "for C#"? ;)
# [18:47] <zewt> i will destroy you
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# [18:50] <Ms2ger> In case people haven't heard where Sylvain is going and have member access: http://www.w3.org/mid/3C4041FF83E1E04A986B6DC50F0178291BF6E264@TK5EX14MBXC227.redmond.corp.microsoft.com
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# [19:44] <annevk> hober: sudo make me sando
# [19:44] <annevk> hober: sounds weird
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# [19:46] <Ms2ger> OH: "W3C Invites Implementations of Turtle"
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# [19:47] <wilhelm> Is that some semantic web thing?
# [19:49] <Philip`> It's one of the myriad serialisations of RDF
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# [19:49] <charl_> i have actually never seen it implemented personally
# [19:50] <charl_> oh wait, this is a new one, i was thinking of another serialisation
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# [19:51] <charl_> found it: n-triples
# [19:51] <Ms2ger> Aren't those just tuples?
# [19:51] <wilhelm> I've actually come into contact with RDF on a real project for the first time. It's even more horrible than I had imagined.
# [19:51] <Ms2ger> My condolences
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# [19:52] <charl_> ah, n-triples is a subset of turtle indeed
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# [19:55] <marcosc> I'm going to punch darobin for every time I have to write a <section> tag because of stupid Respec.js.
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# [19:56] * sangwhan noticed that WebGL 1.0.2 ratification started, and of course non-khronos members aren't even allowed to see it
# [19:56] <charl_> no wait, i was wrong again, i was thinking of notation3 :D
# [19:57] <charl_> forgot what it was called; was way too long ago
# [19:57] <marcosc> mounir: oh crap. I was working off the samsung document :{
# [19:57] <marcosc> I fixed a bunch of typos
# [19:58] <mounir> marcosc: sorry for you :)
# [19:58] <mounir> marcosc: though, we still don't know what is going to be the FPWD
# [19:58] <mounir> I genuinly not understood what their email about our proposal "merge" was trying to say
# [19:59] <marcosc> mounir: I read it as "we took your stuff and built onto of it ... and took out the bits we didn't quite agree with"
# [20:00] <marcosc> mounir: too many chefs in the kitchen
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# [20:02] <marcosc> mounir: I've mostly rewritten the manifest props descriptions. Will you consider it for integration.
# [20:02] <marcosc> ?
# [20:03] <marcosc> It will take me a few more days to complete it. But it will make the manifest part of the document easier to implement.
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# [20:06] <mounir> marcosc: do you have a preview?
# [20:07] <marcosc> early preview: http://jsbin.com/enohit/1/edit
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# [20:09] <mounir> marcosc: feel free to do a pull request when you are done (on my github fork)
# [20:09] <marcosc> mounir: I've fixed up some of the textual descriptions, and started describing the structure of the manifest in terms of object types where it is appropriate. Then those objects can be processed accordingly. Have not started on any of the processing stuff yet.
# [20:09] <marcosc> ok, will do.
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# [20:11] <marcosc> mounir: also, can we change application/x-web-app-manifest+json to application/webapp-manifest+json ?
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# [20:12] <marcosc> If this is going to be the "real deal" we can drop the x-, and the "web-app" is ugly.
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# [20:19] <mounir> marcosc: I would prefer this to be asked in the mailing list but I have nothing against
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# [20:21] <marcosc> mounir: ok, np.
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# [20:32] <tantek> application/webapp-* does seem redundant
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# [20:33] <tantek> marcosc do you mean something like application/manifest+json ?
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# [21:09] <tobie> marcosc: you know I added a markdown mode to ReSpec, right. Wouldn't want darobin hurt.
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# [21:15] <karlcow> arf
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# [21:17] <miketaylr> moo
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# [21:43] <wilhelm> marcosc: Thanks fot the kind words. After it was retweeted by some journalists, I was a little worried I was too open. I still love that little browser vendor, despite my disappointment. (c;
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# [21:43] <wilhelm> s/fot/for
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# [22:11] <jamesr> tantek, you there?
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# [22:11] <jamesr> or anyone who knows 'bout fullscreen?
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# [22:38] <karlcow> http://blog.python.org/2013/02/announcing-defusedxml-fixes-for-xml.html
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# [23:01] <SimonSapin> Nice! http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/43499115162/simon-sapin-laughs-at-your-weak-timid-requests
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# [23:09] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Hahaha
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# Session Close: Wed Feb 20 00:00:00 2013

The end :)