/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-21 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  134. # [05:36] <JonathanNeal> Why did $ become ! http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-selectors4-20110929/ http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors4/ ?
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  138. # [06:08] <zewt> "an E element whose foo attribute value is exactly equal to any (ASCII-range) case-permutation of bar" is this just willfully refusing to use the terminology that everyone else uses? heh
  139. # [06:16] <JonathanNeal> Yea, the language as very confusing.
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  164. # [07:50] <JonathanNeal> zewt: does this make more sense, https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5002284 ?
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  203. # [09:29] <hsivonen> whoa. there has been a release of Amaya in 2012.
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  205. # [09:34] <jgraham> It is a mystery to me why more browsers don't provide an option to change the socket buffer size
  206. # [09:34] <othermaciej> a release of Amaya? why bother?
  207. # [09:34] <othermaciej> jgraham: I hope you're kidding...
  208. # [09:36] <jgraham> othermaciej: Which part? Amaya apparently adding that option or it being a good idea? The former seems to be true, the latter not so much :)
  209. # [09:36] <othermaciej> ah, didn't realize that was a follow-up to hsivonen's comment
  210. # [09:37] <jgraham> Oh yeah, just taken as a random comment, that wouldn't make much sense :)
  211. # [09:37] * Joins: Masklinn (~textual@109.89.134.164)
  212. # [09:37] <othermaciej> it's kind of awesome to have a browser/editor that supports XPointer but not JavaScript
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  218. # [09:48] <marcosc> othermaciej: we need a good open source browser to save us from the "webkit ie6 monoculture"! This is why Amaya had to be released! :P
  219. # [09:49] <othermaciej> wait, IE6 is switching to WebKit?!?!
  220. # [09:49] <marcosc> heh
  221. # [09:50] <marcosc> I liked @sgalineau's tweet the other day: "BREAKING: Amaya switching to WebKit".
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  224. # [10:01] <othermaciej> I'd like to see emacs w3-mode switch to WebKit
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  227. # [10:10] <othermaciej> I read the www-tag archives and was shocked to discover that I accidentally posted to www-tag
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  231. # [10:26] <darobin> I think Amaya still has a thriving community of a few people
  232. # [10:26] <darobin> most people I know who use it actually use it as an editor
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  238. # [10:45] <Ms2ger> OH: "CSS 2.1 can be a bit sloppy at times."
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  246. # [11:00] <gsnedders> Yeah, I've used Amaya in the past year — as an editor.
  247. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> I've used Amaya once in the last decade, I think
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  250. # [11:10] <darobin> IIRC glazou made a BlueGriffon extension that copies Amaya's features around PUT and stuff
  251. # [11:10] <darobin> to help people switch, because there actually is a user base
  252. # [11:10] <darobin> mostly people editing HTML over DAV it would seem
  253. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> But glazou also does polyglot, so I dunno if that says much
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  267. # [11:51] <slightlyoff> gsnedders: on what OS?
  268. # [11:52] <slightlyoff> darobin: can anyone quantify the size of that usebase?
  269. # [11:52] <slightlyoff> I'm intensely curious
  270. # [11:52] <darobin> slightlyoff: for Amaya?
  271. # [11:52] <darobin> or people editing HTML over DAV?
  272. # [11:52] <slightlyoff> yep
  273. # [11:52] <slightlyoff> HTML-over-DAV might be anyone with Office
  274. # [11:52] <slightlyoff> (and Windows)
  275. # [11:52] <darobin> I can probably get some download numbers
  276. # [11:52] <slightlyoff> interesting
  277. # [11:53] <slightlyoff> well, don't do pointless work to satisfy my curiosity
  278. # [11:53] <slightlyoff> if there was a 7DA dashboard, that'd be one thing, but write no scripts on my behalf = )
  279. # [11:53] <darobin> slightlyoff: the mailing list gets some messages http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-amaya/index.html
  280. # [11:54] <slightlyoff> I see...26 messages in the last 2 months, a handful of individual posters
  281. # [11:54] <darobin> OMG it's on GITHUB
  282. # [11:54] <slightlyoff> I think I have the measure of it now = )
  283. # [11:54] <annevk> The only user I know is Chaals and he might have switched to BlueGriffon
  284. # [11:55] <darobin> it's read-only though, the *real* repo is in CVS
  285. # [11:55] <slightlyoff> I tried it a couple of months back and was amazed at how efficiently it turned spare CPU cores into lap-heaters
  286. # [11:56] <darobin> I wonder if it still includes an SVG editor
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  289. # [12:04] <gsnedders> slightlyoff: On OS X.
  290. # [12:04] <slightlyoff> same here...astonishing it even started...was super crashy for me
  291. # [12:04] <gsnedders> Worked for me fine. Couldn't get BlueGriffon working. :)
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  293. # [12:11] <darobin> bah, Firefox really sucks at stepping in when a script hits 100% and stays there :(
  294. # [12:12] <gsnedders> They should just solve the halting problem!
  295. # [12:12] <darobin> gsnedders: hehe
  296. # [12:12] <darobin> you *can* detect that something fishy is going on by monitoring the process
  297. # [12:12] <darobin> heuristics don't have to suck
  298. # [12:13] <gsnedders> Or you can just not block the UI. ;P
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  304. # [12:14] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, you mean, like Opera-on-webkit will do? ;)
  305. # [12:16] <darobin> gsnedders: that would be sweet too, yes — especially if the UI had a feature to kill scripts
  306. # [12:18] <karlcow> Amaya is also very practical to translate an HTML document in wysiwyg mode. The UI is horrendous. It is a only a research project from INRIA. Also very practical for people who want to edit Rendered HTML on a server allowing PUT.
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  309. # [12:26] <jgraham> Ms2ger: https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/26 (hint) ;-)
  310. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> Oh, right
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  312. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> jgraham, done
  313. # [12:27] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Thanks!
  314. # [12:28] * jgraham only got notified of that in 3 different ways, probably need to add a few more
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  316. # [12:38] <jgraham> I hate to propose renaming things
  317. # [12:38] <jgraham> But
  318. # [12:38] <jgraham> Calling something "FontLoader"
  319. # [12:38] <jgraham> Does sort of suggest
  320. # [12:38] <jgraham> It can name fonts
  321. # [12:39] <jgraham> s/name/load
  322. # [12:39] <jgraham> Which it can't
  323. # [12:39] <jgraham> Apparently.
  324. # [12:44] <annevk> FontLoaderManager would be too Java
  325. # [12:44] <annevk> in any event, that can still be renamed
  326. # [12:49] <karlcow> FontControlTower, Fontitude (French joke inside), Fondue, FontHome(Opera)
  327. # [12:49] * karlcow obviously needs a morning cafe.
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  329. # [13:05] <smaug____> jgraham: what does FontLoader do if it doesn't load fonts?
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  332. # [13:06] <Ms2ger> Get load events for @font-face fonts
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  335. # [13:19] <annevk> Looks like jd nuked it from http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/
  336. # [13:19] <annevk> Or am I missing something?
  337. # [13:21] <smaug____> can't see it there, no
  338. # [13:23] <jgraham> It seems to have its own spec now
  339. # [13:23] <jgraham> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-font-load-events/FontLoadEvents.html
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  341. # [13:34] <SimonSapin> annevk: it’s moving to a separate spec
  342. # [13:34] <SimonSapin> because we want to advance css3-fonts, but that part is not quite ready
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  352. # [13:53] <smaug____> odd interface
  353. # [13:53] <smaug____> EventTarget and also using callbacks
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  364. # [14:21] <darobin> whoa weird
  365. # [14:21] <darobin> any reason this isn't just using Progress Events?
  366. # [14:21] <darobin> which would also make it possible to rename as FontProgress or some such that isn't as confusing
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  368. # [14:23] <darobin> smaug____: I think that notifyWhenFontsReady(cb) is there so that you can know when all required fonts have loaded, rather than track the loading of each font individually
  369. # [14:23] <darobin> of course, that doesn't mean there couldn't be an allfontsloaded event
  370. # [14:23] <annevk> they're not progress events
  371. # [14:24] <annevk> SimonSapin: ah yeah, CSS WG's silly game
  372. # [14:25] <darobin> annevk: hence my question
  373. # [14:26] <annevk> darobin: I meant it wouldn't make sense for them to be
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  375. # [14:27] <darobin> ah, maybe I read it too fast
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  379. # [14:27] <annevk> sounds like you read it like I read it the first time
  380. # [14:27] <darobin> annevk: onloadstart and friends for individual font loads could be PE, no?
  381. # [14:28] * darobin should probably actually read the prose too
  382. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> darobin, I hope you like the prose, I wrote it ;)
  383. # [14:28] <annevk> if you only have start and load, it doesn't make sense to use a complicated interface
  384. # [14:28] <darobin> ah, that's why it's so confusing :)
  385. # [14:29] <annevk> Ms2ger: really?
  386. # [14:29] <darobin> sure, but I reckon that this is wired into the same underlying resource loading code, so I would expect it to be possible to just wire this to existing PE support
  387. # [14:29] <annevk> Ms2ger: that would explain why it's somewhat better text than I expected
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  389. # [14:29] <Ms2ger> :D
  390. # [14:29] <annevk> darobin: but what's the point?
  391. # [14:30] <annevk> darobin: and how would you distinguish individual fonts
  392. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0305.html
  393. # [14:30] <darobin> annevk: well, simpler implementation, and can be plugged into whatever code/libs you have that get PE
  394. # [14:30] <annevk> I can assure you the implementation would be more complex
  395. # [14:31] <darobin> fair enough, I admit I'm just skimming
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  401. # [14:41] <SimonSapin> annevk: do you mean everything should just be living standards without stabilization status?
  402. # [14:41] <annevk> SimonSapin: yes
  403. # [14:41] <annevk> SimonSapin: wait, not necessarily without that
  404. # [14:42] <annevk> SimonSapin: having a little thingie on the side that says "this is new, there might be dragons" seems like a good idea
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  406. # [14:43] <SimonSapin> yes, we need some way to signal "this is mostly done, go ahead and expose it to the web" vs. "WIP, we’re gonna change it completely a few more times"
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  409. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, and in the CSSWG, that's LC? ;)
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  411. # [14:46] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: Renaming Period? Yes indeed
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  414. # [14:49] <jgraham> You don't need a way to signal that
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  416. # [14:49] <jgraham> Really
  417. # [14:49] <jgraham> At least not to authors
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  419. # [14:50] <SimonSapin> I meant to implementors
  420. # [14:50] <jgraham> To authors "done" is "implemented in a browser I care about"
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  422. # [14:50] <jgraham> Implementors are in the group and should theoretically have a clue
  423. # [14:50] <jgraham> Although there is evidence that isn't the case
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  425. # [14:51] <SimonSapin> I’ve been implementing WeasyPrint for 1.5 year before joining the group
  426. # [14:51] <jgraham> That's not very long :)
  427. # [14:51] <SimonSapin> that I could is the point of having specs, IMO
  428. # [14:52] <jgraham> Also, I guess it doens't have the same lock-in potential as others implementing half baked things
  429. # [14:53] <jgraham> The point of specs is to make interoperability possible.
  430. # [14:53] <jgraham> As a new implemnentor you are very unlikely to be chasing the bleeding edge
  431. # [14:54] <jgraham> Once you are chasing the bleeding edge you should be actively involved with the standards body
  432. # [14:54] <jgraham> (I don't think that having stability markers is a bad thing btw)
  433. # [14:54] <jgraham> (indeed, I have advocated them)
  434. # [14:54] <jgraham> (but it is important to be aware of who the target market for them is)
  435. # [14:55] <jgraham> (another target market is evangelists)
  436. # [14:56] <jgraham> (they might be less willing to promote the heck out of things marked unstable)
  437. # [14:56] <jgraham> (although)
  438. # [14:56] <jgraham> (probably again if implementors ship they will promote)
  439. # [14:56] <darobin> the target for stability markers in a spec is really implementers
  440. # [14:57] <darobin> they're the only ones I've ever heard serious, motivated requests on this from
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  442. # [14:58] <darobin> jgraham: "Once you are chasing the bleeding edge you should be actively involved with the standards body"
  443. # [14:58] <darobin> but how do you know that you're chasing the bleeding edge if you don't have stability markers? :)
  444. # [14:58] <darobin> and in fact I think that new implementers are likely to be chasing the bleeding edge in one way or another
  445. # [14:59] <darobin> because it's more likely that they're taking the spec to some new place it wasn't going before
  446. # [14:59] <darobin> e.g. I reckon WeasyPrint has some bleeding edge stuff compared to what browsers support for instance for printing :)
  447. # [15:00] <jgraham> You are chasing the bleeding edge if you are implementing stuff that some others (in your area) don't have.
  448. # [15:01] <jgraham> e.g. Prince might be a more reasonable comparison for WeasyPrint
  449. # [15:01] <darobin> the whole of print is bleeding edge when it comes to the web
  450. # [15:01] <SimonSapin> WeasyPrint is not really bleeding edge (yet) compared to PrinceXML or others, but the spec *was* behind all of them
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  454. # [15:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: On the other hand, if you're implementing the document loading from HTML5, even in a brand new browsers, you're bleeding edge :)
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  456. # [15:16] <marcosc> annevk: if I have a JSON file encoded in ISO-8859-1, and I need to parse an URL from it (e.g., {"path": "¢?dfsa"}) using the URL spec. Would I say, "let url be the result of parsing /path/ with the encoding override set to ISO-8859-1"?
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  458. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> I would say "All manifest files MUST use UTF-8."
  459. # [15:17] <marcosc> Ms2ger: B2G don't :(
  460. # [15:17] <marcosc> Just tested it
  461. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> Boo, mounir
  462. # [15:17] <marcosc> I can force it
  463. # [15:18] <annevk> marcosc: if this is not a legacy JSON format, doesn't sound like a good idea
  464. # [15:18] <marcosc> ok, I wanted to check.
  465. # [15:18] <marcosc> I can say that if the JSON is not UTF-8, then cook the user's device
  466. # [15:18] <annevk> marcosc: from what I heard Mozilla is okay with changes due to standardization
  467. # [15:18] <annevk> marcosc: more like burn the server ;)
  468. # [15:18] <mounir> yes we are ;)
  469. # [15:19] <annevk> there you go, mounir, voice of Mozilla
  470. # [15:19] <marcosc> ok, cook the server and the device it is
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  474. # [15:35] <annevk> marcosc: btw, even in the case you'd support legacy encodings, you'd still not use that with the URL parser
  475. # [15:36] <marcosc> annevk: nah, it's better I just ban non-UTF-8
  476. # [15:36] <annevk> marcosc: e.g. CSS is an example of that
  477. # [15:36] <jgraham> Wasn't JSON utf8-by-definition?
  478. # [15:36] <marcosc> jgraham: yes, it was
  479. # [15:37] <marcosc> or is
  480. # [15:37] <annevk> marcosc: if you have url(é) in CSS and the file is encoded using some iso-blah it will encode that character per utf-8 for fetching
  481. # [15:37] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  483. # [15:37] <annevk> marcosc: which is the default behavior of the URL parser; just HTML needs some weird stuff
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  485. # [15:38] <marcosc> annevk: ok. If possible, it would be great if you can add a few examples in the URL spec around this stuff.
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  487. # [15:39] <annevk> marcosc: well it does say "The associated query encoding is a legacy concept only relevant for HTML." so I guess I'd play back the question first and ask why you thought it was relevant :)
  488. # [15:39] <marcosc> annevk: I thought it was relevant because when I read the start of the algorithm I say that I could provide an optional encoding.
  489. # [15:40] <marcosc> And I was checking what FxOS would do with ISO-8859-1 JSON files, even though they were non conforming
  490. # [15:41] <marcosc> (and then I started testing URLs, and thought I would ask because I was unsure)
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  492. # [15:42] <marcosc> annevk: note that I was not using the API itself, I was invoking the parsing algorithm from another spec.
  493. # [15:42] <annevk> I see
  494. # [15:43] <annevk> Okay, I will expand the note under URL parser
  495. # [15:43] <annevk> thanks marcosc
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  497. # [15:44] <annevk> marcosc: I hear you about examples btw, but for that I'd like to see this spec become implemented and accepted
  498. # [15:44] <annevk> for some reason I find good examples hard to do
  499. # [15:45] <marcosc> annevk: understood. I'm happy to throw you some questions that could turn into examples.
  500. # [15:46] <marcosc> Like: given the string " ?abc=123#123 " what comes out the other end of the parsing algorithm?
  501. # [15:46] <marcosc> it's pretty simple, but useful.
  502. # [15:46] <marcosc> like, the white space gets trimmed,
  503. # [15:46] <marcosc> etc.
  504. # [15:46] <annevk> marcosc: so is it Marcos Cáceres or Marcos Caceres?
  505. # [15:46] <annevk> marcosc: you're not being consistent :p
  506. # [15:47] <SimonSapin> marcosc: isn’t whitespace in a[href] trimmed by HTML before the URL is parsed? Or does URL trim it too?
  507. # [15:47] <marcosc> heh, true. Should standardise that... It used to be hard to do accents on computers, now it's not too bad
  508. # [15:48] <marcosc> SimonSapin: I'm just talking about http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#parsing right now
  509. # [15:48] <annevk> SimonSapin: URL trims it
  510. # [15:48] <marcosc> SimonSapin: just generically, I mean
  511. # [15:48] <annevk> SimonSapin: I guess we could move that requirement to <a>, CSS url(), etc. but that seems less optimal somehow, but maybe more clean?
  512. # [15:49] <annevk> marcosc: so you prefer with the accent?
  513. # [15:49] <marcosc> yep
  514. # [15:49] <annevk> thanks
  515. # [15:49] <SimonSapin> CSS already trims whitespace for unquoted url() or for attr(foo url), but it’s fine if URL does it too
  516. # [15:49] <annevk> marcosc: a bug with a list of such questions would be excellent btw
  517. # [15:49] <SimonSapin> maybe better, even
  518. # [15:50] <marcosc> annevk, ok, no probs.
  519. # [15:50] <annevk> SimonSapin: I guess the only problem might be if whitespace is not an agreed upon concept
  520. # [15:50] <annevk> SimonSapin: I haven't really checked that
  521. # [15:50] <marcosc> annevk: I'll file it
  522. # [15:50] <annevk> ta
  523. # [15:50] <marcosc> Will add more to the comments as new questions come up
  524. # [15:53] <annevk> marcosc: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-url-parser has a better note now
  525. # [15:53] <SimonSapin> annevk: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#whitespace \t\n\r\f and the space
  526. # [15:54] <annevk> is \f U+000D?
  527. # [15:54] <SimonSapin> btw, "white space" or "whitespace"?
  528. # [15:54] <annevk> I'm standardizing all my specs on whitespace
  529. # [15:54] <annevk> as over time in English contractions originally written with a space, will then get a hyphen, and then lose the hyphen
  530. # [15:55] <annevk> and I don't really want to play that game so I'll just move to where it ends up
  531. # [15:55] <SimonSapin> U+0020 space, U+0009 \t, U+000A \n, U+000D \r, U+000C \f
  532. # [15:55] <annevk> okay so that matches URL
  533. # [15:55] <annevk> and Encoding
  534. # [15:55] <annevk> http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#ascii-whitespace
  535. # [15:55] <SimonSapin> good
  536. # [15:55] <annevk> yeah :)
  537. # [15:56] <annevk> I believe there might have been some difference at one point between HTML and CSS, but maybe hsivonen got that fixed
  538. # [15:56] <annevk> prolly U+000C
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  543. # [15:59] <jre> Hi there. Has anybody seen IE 10's FormData produce a broken request body, such as in http://jira.icesoft.org/browse/MOBI-567?focusedCommentId=43372&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-43372 ?
  544. # [16:02] <zewt> ("white space" sounds like a wall with nothing on it)
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  546. # [16:05] <annevk> (the annoying thing of course is that CSS has white-space)
  547. # [16:05] <annevk> (I tried preventing this problem with fullscreen, but not everyone is happy with that because browsers had prefixed versions of fullScreen)
  548. # [16:05] <annevk> (filename is another one, but apparently that is exposed as filename though not always written as such)
  549. # [16:05] <annevk> maybe at some point this stuff becomes important enough for a dictionary, but for now looking at prior art seems sufficient
  550. # [16:05] <SimonSapin> css21 has white space, css3-syntax white space, css3-value has both, I don’t see white-space
  551. # [16:06] <annevk> SimonSapin: I meant the property
  552. # [16:06] <SimonSapin> css3-syntax whitespace, even
  553. # [16:06] <SimonSapin> oh ok
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  574. # [16:50] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Fetch am I missing anything?
  575. # [16:50] <annevk> oh yes, Cookies at least
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  579. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> Set-Cookie2
  580. # [16:57] <annevk> Ms2ger: what year is this?
  581. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> 1997
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  583. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> Oh, it was actually defined in 2000
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  590. # [17:03] <annevk> Meh, nobody ever has opinions on the stuff I write
  591. # [17:04] <annevk> Although maybe that's preferable over the army of pitchforks that's chasing Hixie
  592. # [17:05] * darobin has some pitchforks he could use if you want
  593. # [17:05] <darobin> annevk: will you be in London on 15/03?
  594. # [17:05] <annevk> My magic eight ball says almost definitely
  595. # [17:05] <jgraham> Is there a party?
  596. # [17:05] <darobin> I'm thinking of maybe hitting a pub there for my birthday
  597. # [17:05] <jgraham> Oh there is!
  598. # [17:06] <Ms2ger> jgraham, with pitchforks
  599. # [17:06] <annevk> darobin: sounds like I'll be buying you a beer
  600. # [17:06] <darobin> annevk: great!
  601. # [17:06] <darobin> then I'll buy you beer too :)
  602. # [17:07] <annevk> find a few more people and Saturday is going to be terrible
  603. # [17:07] * jgraham wonders why darobin would rather drink in England than France
  604. # [17:07] <darobin> I do have a few more people
  605. # [17:07] * wilhelm wonders this too.
  606. # [17:07] <darobin> jgraham: well, I'll happen to be in London, so that's a factor
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  608. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> Getting completely wasted is more acceptable in England
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  612. # [17:08] <darobin> also, London has beer, whereas France only has bubbly piss
  613. # [17:08] <jgraham> But it's bubbly *French* piss
  614. # [17:08] <darobin> actually it's mostly bubbly Alsacian piss
  615. # [17:08] <jgraham> And therefore you are supposed to think it probably the finest piss in the world
  616. # [17:08] <darobin> there's a derogation for Alsace
  617. # [17:08] <darobin> it's not really France
  618. # [17:09] <darobin> we just took it from the Germans to piss them off
  619. # [17:09] <darobin> and they can't even make proper German beer
  620. # [17:09] <annevk> more Cookies, less piss please
  621. # [17:09] <wilhelm> It did piss them off pretty bad. Well done.
  622. # [17:09] <darobin> :)
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  627. # [17:12] <annevk> wilhelm: nice
  628. # [17:19] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  629. # [17:21] <annevk> good afternoon dglazkov, just missed tea time
  630. # [17:21] <dglazkov> tea time sounds excellent.
  631. # [17:22] <dglazkov> unless it's an euphemism for something horrible
  632. # [17:22] <dglazkov> like "we tea-timed slightlyoff so bad last night, I don't think he's coming back to #whatwg anymore"
  633. # [17:22] <wilhelm> darobin: Those fake French have some of the best rieslings, though. I approve.
  634. # [17:23] <darobin> wilhelm: indeed
  635. # [17:23] <darobin> got to have something to save them :)
  636. # [17:23] <annevk> dglazkov: I'm not sure I want to know what that might mean
  637. # [17:23] <dglazkov> :D
  638. # [17:27] <jgraham> Pretty sure it involves scones though
  639. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> "scones", eh
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  645. # [17:33] <karlcow> hmm going through the bugs of the week and seeing so many bugs opened/commented/reopened by Fred Andrews
  646. # [17:34] <karlcow> with the same message "The architecture of the CDM is not defined."
  647. # [17:34] <karlcow> not sure what to do with it
  648. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> Ignore
  649. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> That works for me
  650. # [17:34] <karlcow> ok thanks Ms2ger
  651. # [17:34] <annevk> Is the architecture defined?
  652. # [17:35] * Ms2ger is good at ignoring
  653. # [17:35] * karlcow is in the process of writing OpenWeb weekly
  654. # [17:36] <annevk> dglazkov: Event.path cannot be exposed differently to Shadow DOM and normal DOM I think
  655. # [17:36] <dglazkov> why not? Event.target is
  656. # [17:36] <annevk> dglazkov: well, I guess if you change it like target is changed maybe?
  657. # [17:37] <annevk> hmm
  658. # [17:37] <dglazkov> right
  659. # [17:37] <dglazkov> we should probably make it a copy, like Event.getPath() or something
  660. # [17:38] <annevk> it can be path, since the list will not change anyway
  661. # [17:38] <dglazkov> oh right
  662. # [17:39] <annevk> well that's not quite right
  663. # [17:39] <annevk> it will change if you dispatch the same object again
  664. # [17:39] <karlcow> darobin: ? "<p>Three constructor is provided for creating" — https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/8b5904d3aa72da763905165df7d4b5d8bf268c93
  665. # [17:41] <annevk> dglazkov: I'm sort of thinking we should move about half of Shadow DOM into DOM
  666. # [17:41] <dglazkov> annevk: let's do it
  667. # [17:41] * dglazkov grabs a shovel
  668. # [17:42] <dglazkov> annevk: do you want to VC to discuss a plan of action?
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  670. # [17:42] <annevk> I guess we should maybe wait a little longer for implementors to catch up?
  671. # [17:43] <dglazkov> who cares about implementors
  672. # [17:43] <annevk> And settle on some of the important questions. Like DocumentFragment versus Element
  673. # [17:43] <dglazkov> screw them
  674. # [17:43] <annevk> heh
  675. # [17:43] <annevk> And then TabAtkins should patch CSS to not just take into account the DOM tree, but also its shadows
  676. # [17:43] <darobin> karlcow: huwah?
  677. # [17:43] <darobin> oh, yeah thanks
  678. # [17:46] <karlcow> with luv from the cow
  679. # [17:47] <annevk> dglazkov: Sorry for sending mixed messages. I'll let you fix the bugs first and then once I have a coherent plan and everything is a bit further along we can discuss it.
  680. # [17:47] <dglazkov> annevk: <phelpsmom>
  681. # [17:47] <annevk> dglazkov: Lets stick to coordinated monkeypatching for now.
  682. # [17:47] <annevk> dglazkov: I do not know what that means, but I'll assume it's friendly :)
  683. # [17:49] <dglazkov> annevk: http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/thefw.com/files/2012/08/michael-phelps-mom-cheers-200-meter-butterfly-silver-medal.gif
  684. # [17:50] <annevk> dglazkov: I guess that's kinda appropriate :-)
  685. # [17:50] <dglazkov> :D
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  688. # [17:52] <karlcow> That's hypnotic
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  690. # [17:54] <dglazkov> karlcow: no, that's hypnotic: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oMnwAgkQl1Y/TZMGsa0PQ3I/AAAAAAAAAX4/8dVNBTkcQlI/s1600/2.gif
  691. # [17:55] <karlcow> is it supposed to move? It doesn't at all with me. Not sure why.
  692. # [17:56] <dglazkov> maybe you're not susceptible to hypnotism. Superspy qualified.
  693. # [17:56] <karlcow> I doubt… :p
  694. # [17:56] <karlcow> I guess I'm too much into the illusion
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  719. # [18:35] <JonathanNeal> hello
  720. # [18:36] <karlcow> TabAtkins: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0322.html
  721. # [18:36] <karlcow> "Please review and let me know if anything looks wrong."
  722. # [18:37] <karlcow> this document? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-syntax/
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  724. # [18:41] <annevk> oh look
  725. # [18:41] <annevk> I published another REC, thanks to Lachy this time around
  726. # [18:41] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-selectors-api-20130221/
  727. # [18:41] <annevk> affiliation is kinda messed up, but who cares
  728. # [18:42] <Lachy> Oh, oops. I forgot to fix that.
  729. # [18:42] <Lachy> nevermind.
  730. # [18:42] <Lachy> It's wrong for me too now.
  731. # [18:42] <annevk> Lachy: you can ask the W3C to edit in place
  732. # [18:42] <tantek> time for a PER!
  733. # [18:42] <annevk> Lachy: especially if your email address changed that might be a good idea
  734. # [18:43] <Lachy> my email address hasn't changed
  735. # [18:43] * annevk is happy for the email on that particular topic to go to /dev/null
  736. # [18:43] <Lachy> since I was never using my @opera.com address
  737. # [18:43] <annevk> Lachy: smart man
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  742. # [18:46] <Lachy> I have to start looking for a new job soon. Though, it's been fun working on my own stuff for the past few weeks.
  743. # [18:47] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
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  746. # [18:48] <Ms2ger> We're hiring ;)
  747. # [18:49] <mounir> Ms2ger: you?
  748. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> Ms2ger Inc.
  749. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> annevk, Lachy - I can edit the affiliation info on that right now if you want
  750. # [18:50] <Lachy> Ms2ger, what company?
  751. # [18:50] <Lachy> MikeSmith, thanks.
  752. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> MoCo
  753. # [18:50] <Lachy> what is MoCo?
  754. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> Or probably Mozilla Denmark if you're staying in Europe
  755. # [18:50] <Lachy> yeah, I'd like to stay in Norway for a little longer
  756. # [18:51] <annevk> MikeSmith: that'd be great http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ has my preferred affiliation
  757. # [18:51] <Lachy> only to stay with my girlfriend, who isn't ready to move just yet.
  758. # [18:52] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I guess you can set my affiliation to none or invited expert or whatever is conventional.
  759. # [18:52] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  760. # [18:52] <annevk> prolly just deleting the company is easiest in that case
  761. # [18:54] <karlcow> :)
  762. # [18:54] <Lachy> Ms2ger, I guess it's worth a shot trying at Mozilla. Who should I send my resume to?
  763. # [18:55] <tantek> Lachy - I think you know a few of us ;)
  764. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> I believe annevk has better access to that information now :)
  765. # [18:55] <karlcow> https://careers.mozilla.org/ but … fear the HR wall
  766. # [18:55] <tantek> Mozilla employees typically put "Mozilla" as their affiliation on specs, e.g.: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transitions/
  767. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> Lachy, annevk done
  768. # [18:56] <annevk> tantek: for WHATWG DOM it was Mozilla Foundation for a while until I changed it to just Mozilla
  769. # [18:56] * karlcow would be happy if there was no name, no company at all, but that's unlikely :)
  770. # [18:56] <Lachy> thanks MikeSmith
  771. # [18:57] <annevk> ta MikeSmith
  772. # [18:57] <annevk> karlcow: maybe, making someone responsible can work reasonably well
  773. # [18:58] <karlcow> annevk: I don't understand. ☺ try again
  774. # [18:58] <annevk> karlcow: it's not important
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  776. # [18:58] * karlcow likes the irony of Opera being on top of the spec and suddenly disappearing http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-selectors-api-20130221/
  777. # [18:58] <karlcow> for the Rec spec
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  779. # [18:59] <karlcow> New whizbang marketing opportunity for companies, hire the employee just before Rec for the Press Releases :)
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  788. # [19:16] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: you can not set the type flag of hash tokens after the fact by just looking at the value, because at that point you don’t know if an hypen or a digit was escaped in the source or not
  789. # [19:18] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: #\- and #\31 are valid ID selectors
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  791. # [19:20] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: also, a note saying that this is for ID selectors would help
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  794. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> wow now there's a console.table ?
  795. # [19:25] <annevk> Are we banning #x#y in CSS yet?
  796. # [19:25] <annevk> SimonSapin: ^
  797. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> https://plus.google.com/115133653231679625609/posts/PmTC5wwJVEc
  798. # [19:26] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, spec it! :)
  799. # [19:26] <karlcow> ahah
  800. # [19:27] <karlcow> approaching little by little what iPython Notebook does
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  804. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I see that honza already specced it
  805. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> http://www.softwareishard.com/blog/firebug/tabular-logs-in-firebug/
  806. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> we should just start making specs by linking to blog postings
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  811. # [19:30] <SimonSapin> annevk: sorry, what?
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  819. # [19:30] <SimonSapin> that’s a valid selector which never matches anything … but what’s your point?
  820. # [19:30] <SimonSapin> the above is about the syntax of ID selectors being more restrictive than that of HASH tokens … and the difference is only detectable at tokenization time
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  822. # [19:30] <zewt> doesn't look like a good api, loses the log priority entirely
  823. # [19:31] <annevk> SimonSapin: #b#c is valid in CSS
  824. # [19:31] <karlcow> +1 to what MikeSmith with a minor change. Link to the web.archive.org of the web posting
  825. # [19:31] <SimonSapin> annevk: yes … what about it?
  826. # [19:31] <annevk> SimonSapin: I think it should be invalid
  827. # [19:31] <SimonSapin> why?
  828. # [19:32] <zewt> better off with console.log(new LogTable(x)) or something like that
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  830. # [19:32] * GPHemsley still thinks there should be support for multiple IDs on a single element
  831. # [19:32] <annevk> SimonSapin: because it can never match an element
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  833. # [19:33] <annevk> SimonSapin: there used to be a theoretical possibility, but that's gone now
  834. # [19:36] <SimonSapin> should :nth-child(odd):nth-child(even) *>:root or :not(*|*) all be invalid too?
  835. # [19:36] <zewt> anne: doesn't mean it should be illegal
  836. # [19:38] <zewt> something validators might point out, sure, but not illegal syntactically
  837. # [19:38] <SimonSapin> [foo=a][foo=b] :last-child~* :empty>*
  838. # [19:38] <SimonSapin> we have tons of these
  839. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> zewt: console.O(log n)
  840. # [19:38] <SimonSapin> I dont’t thing they should be invalid
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  842. # [19:39] <jamesr> .tobe:not(.tobe)
  843. # [19:39] <zewt> mike: what? heb
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  845. # [19:39] <zewt> (my crappy android keyboard is showing)
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  847. # [19:39] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  848. # [19:40] <SimonSapin> annevk: ^
  849. # [19:46] <karlcow> 200 mails to go…
  850. # [19:48] * hober2 is now known as hober
  851. # [19:48] <annevk> SimonSapin: those are not unique
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  853. # [19:49] <annevk> SimonSapin: so it's different from #
  854. # [19:50] <annevk> but then again, #test is not like getElementById("test") ...
  855. # [19:50] <SimonSapin> annevk: isn’t #a#b the same as [id=a][id=b] ?
  856. # [19:51] <annevk> SimonSapin: theoretically not
  857. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> Different specificity
  858. # [19:51] <annevk> SimonSapin: these days it might be, but before DTD assigned IDs and xml:id could also be matched by #test
  859. # [19:51] <SimonSapin> "same" as in matches the same elements
  860. # [19:52] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Runaway element? http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-css-counter-styles-3-20130221/#override-system
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  862. # [19:54] <SimonSapin> anyway, my point is that there are many selectors that can never match anything, and that doesn’t mean they should be invalid
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  865. # [19:57] <zewt> and making things that can't match anything invalid doesn't help anyone (they don't have to be invalid for validators/linters to point them out)
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  870. # [20:06] <karlcow> is the "Beacon API" what I think it is?
  871. # [20:06] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0391.html
  872. # [20:07] <karlcow> Yes it is… "Frankly, analytics don’t have many good options"
  873. # [20:07] <karlcow> I wonder if MikeSmith can spare a bit of his bottle.
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  879. # [20:23] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: I'm not sure that 'width' should include the value of 'negative' in its calculations...
  880. # [20:23] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-xkxlogahgqiuwnlh)
  881. # [20:25] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Also, the 'fallback' explanation is somewhat contradictory with regard to loops. A loop can't be both good and bad.
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  883. # [20:26] * GPHemsley hopes it's OK that I'm writing all this in here.
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  886. # [20:27] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: It would be good to explain in a note what kind of systems do not use a negative sign.
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  889. # [20:29] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: §3.8, ¶2: "counter style" should be "‘@counter-style’"
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  891. # [20:31] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Similarly, the following paragraph needs a link.
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  984. # Session Close: Fri Feb 22 00:00:00 2013

The end :)