/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Feb 24 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:22] <zewt> more generally, things tend towards complexity in the client and having servers be as stupid and generic as possible; i imagine if file format negotiation was being designed today, it would be more like srcset
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  21. # [01:24] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: can I assume a single "root box" generated by the root element?
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  23. # [01:31] <wilhelm> zewt: I agree.
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  32. # [01:57] <gotwig> hello folks
  33. # [01:57] <gotwig> What about a more hierachic selector model support for CSS 4?
  34. # [01:57] <gotwig> for relative paths..?
  35. # [01:58] <gotwig> and I also have a problem. Well, I do not know how to realize it properly but here is my idea:
  36. # [01:58] <gotwig> I want to make a dropdown slider window thing, that only happens when I press on a specific button
  37. # [01:59] <gotwig> now you can do that in CSS with different methods, but IMHO there is no method that fulfills the goal to 100%
  38. # [01:59] <gotwig> http://tympanus.net/Tutorials/CSSClickEvents/index.html
  39. # [02:00] <gotwig> I realized in my case the thing with a transform loop that is nearly endless
  40. # [02:01] <gotwig> the problem here is, you can't cancel that loop without a web scripting language. You can't cancel it with css, or apply other styles
  41. # [02:01] <gotwig> focus doesn't work for me as well, because when I focus a textbox in the div, the focus gets lost and I am back.
  42. # [02:01] <gotwig> target is ofcourse not a good idea as well.
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  44. # [02:02] <gotwig> oh, there is the first one :X
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  46. # [02:03] <gotwig> but with the first one, its hard to apply something like a blur out
  47. # [02:04] <gotwig> maybe I want to lose the focus when I leave that div
  48. # [02:04] <gotwig> oh, I can use the NOT right?
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  171. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> annevk: please add a note to http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/06/creating-events that the old example doesn't work anymore
  172. # [12:03] <Ms2ger> annevk: and we should probably spec the untouchables from https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=68791#c14
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  207. # [14:16] <annevk> Hopefully MutationEvent can be avoided...
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  214. # [14:37] <annevk> Ms2ger: fixed the blog post
  215. # [14:44] <gsnedders> Firefox blocking third party cookies? Huh. Wonder if they'll manage to do so without breaking too much. (Opera 10.50 did — most of the broken sites were Russian.)
  216. # [14:46] <annevk> I wonder if for XMLHttpRequest we should stop distinguishing user terminates request from network error... It's such a small special case and browsers typically don't have UI for it.
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  225. # [15:00] <annevk> CORS-enabled fetch in HTML seems buggy with respect to redirects
  226. # [15:01] <annevk> E.g. cross-origin to data URL...
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  234. # [15:29] <gotwig> hey ho
  235. # [15:29] <gotwig> so you talk about html5+ ?
  236. # [15:30] <Philip`> Occasionally
  237. # [15:30] <gotwig> I would be pleased to get your help :X
  238. # [15:30] <gotwig> so... why is :after not a property, but a pseudo class
  239. # [15:31] <gotwig> oh, eh, I can combine it with other pseudoclasses, right?
  240. # [15:31] <gotwig> I forgot that
  241. # [15:31] <gotwig> e.g p:hover:after{content: "Text" }
  242. # [15:31] <gotwig> right?
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  245. # [15:32] <gotwig> ^css
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  247. # [15:34] <Badreddin> yes
  248. # [15:34] <Badreddin> I just did it
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  250. # [15:34] <gotwig> meaning the text only appers after I do a hoverß
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  252. # [15:34] <gotwig> ?
  253. # [15:34] * ronald__mansveld is now known as ronaldmansveld
  254. # [15:34] <Philip`> gotwig: Do you mean why is it not "p:hover { after: "Text" }" or something?
  255. # [15:35] <gotwig> Philip`, yeah
  256. # [15:35] <Badreddin> yes, only on hover
  257. # [15:35] <gotwig> but I forgot that I can combine pseudo classes
  258. # [15:35] <gotwig> :after and :before are godlike features...
  259. # [15:35] <Philip`> I guess it's so you can do p:after { content: "Text"; color: #f0f; } etc, and apply arbitrary CSS to the aftered content
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  261. # [15:36] <gotwig> works like ice cream ;D
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  263. # [15:38] <gotwig> can you help me a bit here?
  264. # [15:38] <gotwig> http://bbm3h11bgo.bplaced.net/project/index.php
  265. # [15:39] <gotwig> I want that if the checkbox is checked, there should be Close before the label Test
  266. # [15:39] <gotwig> I used #toggle:checked:before label{
  267. # [15:39] <gotwig> content: "Close";
  268. # [15:39] <gotwig> color: white;
  269. # [15:39] <gotwig> } for that
  270. # [15:39] <gotwig> sry..
  271. # [15:40] <Philip`> I'd expect it to be more like "#toggle:checked label:before"
  272. # [15:40] <gotwig> oh yeah
  273. # [15:40] <gotwig> I try that
  274. # [15:41] <gotwig> but It still doesnt work :X
  275. # [15:42] <gotwig> label:before works as expected, btw
  276. # [15:43] <ronaldmansveld> it's because label isn't a decendant, but a sibling of #toggle
  277. # [15:43] <ronaldmansveld> so use the sibling selector between the two ;)
  278. # [15:44] <annevk> gotwig: ::before/::after are pseudo-elements
  279. # [15:44] <ronaldmansveld> #toggle:checked + label:before
  280. # [15:44] <annevk> gotwig: they are not -classes and can only appear at the end of a selector
  281. # [15:44] <gotwig> why is it a sibling
  282. # [15:44] <gotwig> its a seperate tag, under the other, not inherited or what ever :X
  283. # [15:45] <ronaldmansveld> because they are next to each other in the sourcecode, the label is'nt contained by the input
  284. # [15:45] <annevk> if elements have the same parent they are siblings
  285. # [15:45] <ronaldmansveld> thanks annevk
  286. # [15:45] <gotwig> Works
  287. # [15:45] <gotwig> thX
  288. # [15:45] <ronaldmansveld> that was indeed the definition I was looking for :P
  289. # [15:45] <annevk> gotwig: see http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#trees for more platform tree terminology
  290. # [15:46] <gotwig> thx
  291. # [15:46] <gotwig> do you see what I want to do?
  292. # [15:46] <gotwig> I want to realize a click > panel come down thing
  293. # [15:46] <annevk> use <details>
  294. # [15:46] <gotwig> can I replace content with css?
  295. # [15:47] <annevk> I think it's styleable to some extent
  296. # [15:48] <gotwig> hm, what ever, for now its enough
  297. # [15:48] <gotwig> * gives me all context right?
  298. # [15:48] <gotwig> so I've got #toggle:checked * #toppanel
  299. # [15:48] <gotwig> but that does nothing for me :/ I want that I can influence #toppanel, after toggle is checked
  300. # [15:49] <gotwig> toppanel is a grandparent of toggle
  301. # [15:50] <annevk> not without scripting
  302. # [15:50] <gotwig> why
  303. # [15:50] <gotwig> because I can't access the parent?
  304. # [15:50] <ronaldmansveld> it's not (yet) possible to style (grand)parents with CSS
  305. # [15:50] <annevk> there's no parent selector
  306. # [15:50] <gotwig> but I tought * would give me control over the whole css tree?
  307. # [15:50] <annevk> no
  308. # [15:50] <annevk> * matches any element
  309. # [15:50] <ronaldmansveld> I believe CSS4 will introduce a parentselector though, but that will take some time to be available
  310. # [15:50] <gotwig> any element in context of the current level or what?
  311. # [15:50] <annevk> yes
  312. # [15:51] <annevk> :checked and *:checked are equivalent
  313. # [15:51] <gotwig> and I also read about that with css4, the parent thing
  314. # [15:51] <annevk> #test and *#test are too
  315. # [15:51] <gotwig> that is sad ;/
  316. # [15:51] <gotwig> I tought I could do it in css only
  317. # [15:51] <gotwig> but well, I add it maybe on the same div leve
  318. # [15:51] <gotwig> l
  319. # [15:52] <gotwig> and then positionate a bit
  320. # [15:52] <gotwig> labels for="" does not work on the whole tree, right?
  321. # [15:52] <annevk> it does
  322. # [15:53] <ronaldmansveld> it does, because the for will match on ID
  323. # [15:53] <gotwig> thats great
  324. # [15:53] <gotwig> so the user does not have to see the checkbox
  325. # [15:53] <gotwig> :>
  326. # [15:53] <gotwig> and I still can use good positions
  327. # [15:55] <annevk> it sounds like you're not solving this in entirely the right way, but have fun tinkering
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  329. # [15:55] <gotwig> annevk, how would you do it in css only?
  330. # [15:55] <gotwig> I saw that here http://tympanus.net/Tutorials/CSSClickEvents/index.html
  331. # [15:58] <gotwig> do you can tell me on which level the checkbox has to be..?
  332. # [16:02] <gotwig> does that here work? https://github.com/Idered/cssParentSelector
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  335. # [16:06] <gotwig> what about having to focuses?
  336. # [16:07] <gotwig> *two
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  340. # [16:11] <annevk> gotwig: for general development questions #html5 is prolly a better channel
  341. # [16:12] <gotwig> ok.
  342. # [16:12] <annevk> it's fine to ask questions here, but people here are generally more focused on developing standards
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  351. # [16:34] <annevk> Hmm, merging Fetch and CORS gets interesting...
  352. # [16:35] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman)
  353. # [16:36] <annevk> The problem being that Fetch ignores origin completely. So e.g. if we want to support <script> but also allow the response to be annotated with CORS, we need to keep track of that during the request, but not fail if CORS fails...
  354. # [16:37] <annevk> But, that does not work if the request is something that CORS cannot do without preflight. But I guess we don't have such requests currently as that would kinda defeat the point of CORS.
  355. # [16:38] <gotwig> annevk, can you help me with CSS4?
  356. # [16:39] <annevk> gotwig: http://www.xanthir.com/b4Ko0
  357. # [16:40] <annevk> gotwig: I don't really know much about the checkbox tricks people employ these days I'm afraid
  358. # [16:40] <gotwig> the following #toppanel! > #toggle:checked { top:0px } I use http://demo.idered.pl/jQuery.cssParentSelector/
  359. # [16:40] <gotwig> I want that if the user checks toggle, toppanel should change its property to top:0px
  360. # [16:41] <gotwig> is that in theory, the right code?
  361. # [16:41] <annevk> are you including the script as that page instructs?
  362. # [16:42] <annevk> I believe I told you before that without script there's no selecting of parents
  363. # [16:46] <gotwig> I included the script
  364. # [16:46] <gotwig> in the .html page, where I also load the css fie
  365. # [16:46] <gotwig> *file
  366. # [16:47] <annevk> and jQuery?
  367. # [16:47] <gotwig> yes
  368. # [16:47] <annevk> well should work then I suppose
  369. # [16:47] <gotwig> on the html page, not on the css file... I dont know if I have to load it somehow first, load it into an object or so..
  370. # [16:48] <gotwig> I grab the tests.
  371. # [16:48] <annevk> nah, looks like the script fetches external style sheets
  372. # [16:48] <annevk> which seems like a waste, but I guess that's webdev these days
  373. # [16:49] <gotwig> not good enough for a web browser implementation ;) is there more work being done on the subject thing, or on the parent selector?
  374. # [16:49] <gotwig> I heard that with a subject pseudo class thingy you would be able to do more then with just a parent selector
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  376. # [16:52] <annevk> I don't follow www-style closely
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  385. # [17:16] <gotwig> annevk, I got it working
  386. # [17:17] <gotwig> and I am very depressed now... important is not able to handle a property line that does not contain an ; as a charachter?
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  391. # [17:20] <annevk> So I'm sketching out the Fetch logic in some pseudo-Python, and it's complicated :-(
  392. # [17:22] <zewt> wow, pretty terrible firefox console window bug: it's collapsing lines even when they aren't the last line
  393. # [17:22] <zewt> in fact, it's collapsing them when they aren't even on screen, so i thought something was fixed (because i didn't see the warning) wasn't
  394. # [17:25] * GPHemsley recalls experiencing that a lot
  395. # [17:25] <GPHemsley> It also collapses any line that is identical
  396. # [17:25] <GPHemsley> which can be confusing
  397. # [17:26] <zewt> pretty broken behavior, imo (but anyway I'm back in Chrome which is much saner)
  398. # [17:27] <zewt> wow this parent selector code is ...
  399. # [17:28] <zewt> j && (parsed += ',');
  400. # [17:28] <zewt> i smell a perl programmer
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  402. # [17:29] <zewt> also all variables var'd at the top of the block, somebody with some really bad habits left over from old C as well it seems
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  404. # [17:32] <zewt> not sure this is a hack i'd ever want to actually use--don't think i trust anything that parses my CSS with a bunch of unreadable regexes and modifies them
  405. # [17:33] <zewt> /[\w\s\.\-\:\=\'\*\|\?\^\+\/\\;#%]+\}{1}/ \i\ \c\a\n\'\t\ \r\e\a\d\ \t\h\i\s
  406. # [17:37] * Quits: mh0 (mh0@unaffiliated/mh0) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
  407. # [17:38] <zewt> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm#keyboard-101 wow this is ... a bit insane
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  412. # [17:42] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Python_pseudo-code for those interested
  413. # [17:42] <annevk> main bit is def fetch()
  414. # [17:43] <zewt> (whew, looks like none of those keyboard pictures are normative)
  415. # [17:43] <annevk> zewt: JavaScript hoists variables to the top of the block so you might as well declare them there
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  417. # [17:44] <zewt> no way, that makes a mess of code
  418. # [17:44] <zewt> have a bunch of declarations at the top (where you have no idea what they're all for), and variables below where you can't tell if they're actually declared as locals (because it's all up top)
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  423. # [17:47] <zewt> (i definitely wish strict had fixed that design screwup, though, and made vars local to the enclosing block)
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  425. # [17:50] <zewt> annevk: file: is usually a hard error for xhr, but for things like <img> it just taints, right?
  426. # [17:51] <annevk> afaik file does not work cross-origin
  427. # [17:54] <zewt> <img src=foo.jpg> works for me on file:
  428. # [17:54] <zewt> (in chrome and FF)
  429. # [17:54] <zewt> it's just tainted so you can't use it with canvas, etc
  430. # [17:54] <annevk> that's same-origin though
  431. # [17:54] <zewt> all file: requests are cross-origin, right?
  432. # [17:54] <zewt> (each file is its own origin)
  433. # [17:54] <zewt> pretty sure that xhr would fail for the same url
  434. # [17:54] <annevk> ah yeah, maybe file requires a bit more special casing then
  435. # [17:55] <annevk> I think some browsers might scope origin to a directory, but I'm not sure
  436. # [17:56] <gsnedders> annevk: directory or its children is what WebKit does, IIRC
  437. # [17:56] <zewt> chrome is per-file i'm pretty sure
  438. # [17:57] <annevk> but anyway, file: is the least important
  439. # [17:57] <zewt> since they don't want a script in the root directory to be able to access the whole HDD
  440. # [17:57] <annevk> it's going to be by and large platform-dependent
  441. # [17:57] <annevk> and implementation
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  443. # [17:57] <gsnedders> zewt: It's the document path, not the script path, that matters.
  444. # [17:57] <zewt> not following
  445. # [17:58] <zewt> (they're the same for an html file with a <script>)
  446. # [17:58] <annevk> just assume s/NetworkError()/ImplementationSpecific()/ for that line
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  449. # [17:58] <zewt> also you can't access stuff even in the same directory, eg. so if you drop foo.html into ~ it can't read .wgetrc and read passwords or whatever
  450. # [18:01] <gsnedders> Some browser has that behaviour, at least :P
  451. # [18:01] <zewt> i don't think any current desktop browser allows xhr on file: at all
  452. # [18:02] <zewt> i think chrome used to, since I vaguely remember being irritated when it stopped working
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  456. # [18:04] <zewt> annevk: file: aside, it looks like Chrome, at least, doesn't allow cross-origin xhr for anything at all except http/https
  457. # [18:05] <zewt> XMLHttpRequest cannot load file:///E:/temp/foo. Cross origin requests are only supported for HTTP.
  458. # [18:05] <zewt> it can't even load about:blank, which seems lame
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  461. # [18:06] <zewt> or data:
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  464. # [18:07] <annevk> zewt: that's a new feature
  465. # [18:07] <annevk> kinda
  466. # [18:08] <zewt> data: isn't exactly new, heh
  467. # [18:08] <annevk> well that you can load it through XHR was only added recently
  468. # [18:08] <annevk> this is adding about:blank
  469. # [18:08] <annevk> and about:unicorn
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  486. # [18:59] <annevk> So if you do a request to a cross-origin URL for which the response is a redirect (that opts into CORS) to a data: URL. Should we expose the data: URL given that the redirected opted in?
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  494. # [19:10] * GPHemsley misses the 'Alternate "101" Keyboard Layout'
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  498. # [19:24] <GPHemsley> I take it UI Events is a No Scroogling Zone?
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  503. # [19:31] <annevk> What does that mean?
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  505. # [19:48] <GPHemsley> annevk: It's a reference to commercials Outlook is running against Google in the U.S.
  506. # [19:49] <GPHemsley> annevk: You might not have seen them.
  507. # [19:49] <GPHemsley> annevk: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9236916/Microsoft_adopts_advocacy_tactics_to_scroogle_Google_in_attack_campaign
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  511. # [20:03] <annevk> GPHemsley: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm is the location anyway
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  523. # [21:11] <SimonSapin> So, @page inherits from the root, and viewport units are based on the page size. How do we resolve this without breaking some use cases? :root { font-size: 1vw } @page { width: 50em }
  524. # [21:16] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Does it make sense to use viewport lengths for font-size?
  525. # [21:16] * GPHemsley gets déjà vu.
  526. # [21:17] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: some people like it, for slides: http://css-tricks.com/viewport-sized-typography/
  527. # [21:17] <SimonSapin> I think the use case is interesting
  528. # [21:17] <SimonSapin> but so is em for page margins
  529. # [21:18] <SimonSapin> and so is @page inheriting from root
  530. # [21:18] <GPHemsley> "For use with font-size, I guess it's one "letter" that takes on that size, but as we know, in non-mono-spaced fonts the width of a letter is rather arbitrary. I find you just need to tweak around with the values to get it how you want it. Which is basically what we do anyway, right?"
  531. # [21:19] <GPHemsley> That seems like it opens things up to be really complicated.
  532. # [21:19] <SimonSapin> on screen it’s fine, you know the size of the viewport before looking at anything CSS
  533. # [21:20] * Joins: Badreddin (~Nur@189.193.27.199)
  534. # [21:20] <SimonSapin> on Paged Media we defined the "viewport" to be the content area of the first page, … whose size can be controlled in CSS
  535. # [21:20] <SimonSapin> and now we are so screwed :)
  536. # [21:20] <GPHemsley> and what happens with fallback fonts?
  537. # [21:21] <GPHemsley> IDK, it just seems like it'd be easier for everyone if they were just disallowed
  538. # [21:21] <SimonSapin> font-size is just a length, independant of the face
  539. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> and it also makes things impossible to read on really small windows
  540. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> sure, it fits in the frame, but to what end?
  541. # [21:23] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
  542. # [21:23] <GPHemsley> http://css-tricks.com/examples/ViewportTypography/
  543. # [21:23] <GPHemsley> try resizing the window
  544. # [21:23] <SimonSapin> maybe we could have defined this differently, but that ship has sailed
  545. # [21:24] <GPHemsley> meh
  546. # [21:24] * GPHemsley doesn't own a boat
  547. # [21:24] <SimonSapin> these issues are all valid, but the behavior is still well-defined
  548. # [21:25] <SimonSapin> not so on Paged Media :/
  549. # [21:26] <GPHemsley> So... why does @page inherit from :root?
  550. # [21:27] <GPHemsley> shouldn't @page = viewport?
  551. # [21:28] <SimonSapin> Page-margin boxes (that contain text) inherit from @page, so it’s useful to get the root’s font "for free"
  552. # [21:29] <SimonSapin> Also 'direction' and 'writing-modes' affect some stuff of left vs. right page, again nice to get the values from the root
  553. # [21:31] <GPHemsley> Perhaps there needs to be some distinction between "paper" and "page"
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  555. # [21:32] <GPHemsley> Or, actually
  556. # [21:33] <GPHemsley> shouldn't it be @page > :root > page-margin box ?
  557. # [21:34] <SimonSapin> there only one root element, but multiple page boxes
  558. # [21:34] <GPHemsley> there should be some distinction between what the physical page requirements are and what the contents of the page are
  559. # [21:34] <SimonSapin> when painting it somewhat like @page > { :root, page-margin boxes }
  560. # [21:34] <SimonSapin> but the cascade is :root element > @page > page-margin boxes
  561. # [21:35] <SimonSapin> maybe @page inheriting from the root is what we’ll end up removing
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  563. # [21:35] <SimonSapin> which, by the way, is well defined as long as you don’t have viewport units
  564. # [21:35] <GPHemsley> Yeah, I think :root should inherit from @page
  565. # [21:36] <GPHemsley> which should not preclude page-margin boxes from inheriting from :root
  566. # [21:37] <GPHemsley> it's best to think about it physically, I think
  567. # [21:37] <GPHemsley> most fundamentally, you have a sheet of paper whose dimensions and properties do not change, no matter what is printed on it
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  569. # [21:38] <GPHemsley> maybe page-margin boxes shouldn't inherit from :root
  570. # [21:38] <SimonSapin> page dimensions do change: table { page: wide } @page wide { size: A4 landscape } @page { size: A4 portrait /* default */ }
  571. # [21:38] <SimonSapin> different pages can have different styles
  572. # [21:39] <GPHemsley> well
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  574. # [21:39] <GPHemsley> that changes the sheet of paper, too, doesn't it?
  575. # [21:39] <GPHemsley> that is, tables will get a new sheet with that style, won't they?
  576. # [21:39] <SimonSapin> it could, that’s undefined
  577. # [21:39] <SimonSapin> although in this case it’s expected to only rotate
  578. # [21:40] <GPHemsley> how do you rotate only part of a page?
  579. # [21:40] <SimonSapin> no, changing page type causes a forced page break
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  581. # [21:40] <GPHemsley> right, exactly
  582. # [21:40] <GPHemsley> so dimensions may change from page to page
  583. # [21:40] <GPHemsley> but they don't change within the page
  584. # [21:42] <GPHemsley> also, in that case, wouldn't that mean that the text size would change because the width/height would change?
  585. # [21:42] <GPHemsley> the text size in the table, that is
  586. # [21:43] * Steve___ is now known as SteveF
  587. # [21:43] <GPHemsley> (if you used viewport units to size the font)
  588. # [21:44] <GPHemsley> and what happens if multiple pages are printed on a single sheet?
  589. # [21:44] <GPHemsley> (that may be an orthogonal question)
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  591. # [21:46] <SimonSapin> viewport units in paged media are only based on the first page
  592. # [21:46] <GPHemsley> ah, right
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  594. # [21:46] <GPHemsley> you said that
  595. # [21:46] <SimonSapin> implementations don’t want a set of computed value per page
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  597. # [21:47] <SimonSapin> another option would have been to make them like percentages, only resolved during layout. But we resolved on the first one
  598. # [21:47] <GPHemsley> what document(s) can I use as reference in this discussion?
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  600. # [21:48] <GPHemsley> how do you determine what the first page is?
  601. # [21:49] <GPHemsley> what if a table is on the first page?
  602. # [21:49] <SimonSapin> eh … its a bit scattered on www-style and conf call minutes
  603. # [21:49] <GPHemsley> does that mean that all the subsequent pages use text sized on landscape instead of portrait?
  604. # [21:49] <GPHemsley> ah
  605. # [21:49] <GPHemsley> what's the background document (spec)?
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  607. # [21:50] <SimonSapin> after the table you go to the parent’s or next sibling’s page type
  608. # [21:50] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-page/
  609. # [21:50] <SimonSapin> if there is no content before the table (roughly), the first page is wide
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  611. # [21:50] <GPHemsley> for the "first page" calculation?
  612. # [21:51] <GPHemsley> for the viewport, I mean
  613. # [21:51] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/#viewport-relative-lengths
  614. # [21:52] <SimonSapin> "initial containing block" is defined in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-page/#page-box-page-rule
  615. # [21:52] <SimonSapin> interactions of viewport units and @page are not yet defined (that’s my issue list)
  616. # [21:53] <GPHemsley> page box = printable area?
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  618. # [21:54] <SimonSapin> hum, mostly
  619. # [21:55] * ronald_mansveld is now known as ronaldmansveld
  620. # [21:56] <GPHemsley> OK, so, each sheet of paper has a single page box?
  621. # [21:57] <GPHemsley> (assuming one page per sheet)
  622. # [21:57] <SimonSapin> yes
  623. # [21:57] <SimonSapin> although other transfer types are allowed: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-page/#transfer-possibilities
  624. # [21:58] <GPHemsley> @page > @page :left, @page :right ?
  625. # [22:01] <SimonSapin> @page {} applies to all pages, but with weaker specificity than @page :left {} which applies only to left pages
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  627. # [22:02] <GPHemsley> is that different from inheritance?
  628. # [22:03] <GPHemsley> does the "initial containing block" take on the properties of whichever of :left and :right is first?
  629. # [22:03] <SimonSapin> I guess you could view it kind of like inheritance … but it is more like different selectors matching the same element
  630. # [22:03] <SimonSapin> the usual cascading rules apply
  631. # [22:04] <GPHemsley> ...which question was that a response to?
  632. # [22:04] <SimonSapin> with source, order specificity, !important, stylesheet origin, etc.
  633. # [22:04] <SimonSapin> response to "is that different from inheritance"
  634. # [22:04] <GPHemsley> ah, ok
  635. # [22:05] <SimonSapin> ICB is basically the used values of the 'width' and 'height' properties of the first page, after cascading and resolving 'auto' values
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  639. # [22:07] <GPHemsley> so, if :left and :right wind up having different widths/heights, then the width/height of the "first page" (and, thus, the ICB) would depend on whether the "first page" was :left or :right?
  640. # [22:08] <SimonSapin> yes
  641. # [22:08] <SimonSapin> which depends on writing mode and direction
  642. # [22:08] <GPHemsley> hmm
  643. # [22:08] <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-page/#progression
  644. # [22:08] <SimonSapin> at least the default depends on that
  645. # [22:09] <SimonSapin> authors can switch with eg. :root { break-before: left }
  646. # [22:09] <SimonSapin> (there is no printed page before that "page break")
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  648. # [22:11] <GPHemsley> right
  649. # [22:11] <GPHemsley> hmm
  650. # [22:11] <GPHemsley> but what does that mean if you have: table { page: wide } @page wide { size: A4 landscape } @page { size: A4 portrait /* default */ }
  651. # [22:12] <GPHemsley> and then :root > table:first-child ?
  652. # [22:13] <SimonSapin> then the first page is A4 landscape
  653. # [22:13] <GPHemsley> does that mean the "first page" is now @page wide ?
  654. # [22:13] <SimonSapin> yes
  655. # [22:14] <GPHemsley> is it a good idea to allow that to control how the viewport units are calculated?
  656. # [22:14] <GPHemsley> or is that part of the question we're trying to answer?
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  658. # [22:15] <SimonSapin> interesting point
  659. # [22:15] <SimonSapin> "ICB = first page" is somewhat arbitrary
  660. # [22:15] <GPHemsley> so, we always have @page :left and @page :right
  661. # [22:15] <GPHemsley> oftentimes they are the same
  662. # [22:15] <GPHemsley> sometimes they are different
  663. # [22:16] <GPHemsley> page progression determines which one is "first"
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  665. # [22:16] <SimonSapin> viewport units being based on the first page makes the feature somewhat useless when page size varies. But anything else has too much implementation cost
  666. # [22:16] <GPHemsley> I think that's about as far as you should go before you determine viewport units
  667. # [22:16] <GPHemsley> oh
  668. # [22:17] <GPHemsley> too much of an exception to the rule?
  669. # [22:17] <SimonSapin> the ICB is based on 'width' and 'height' in @page. But if that is 'auto', it’s based on margin-*, border-*-width, padding-*, and size
  670. # [22:18] <SimonSapin> do you mean not inherit from :root?
  671. # [22:19] <GPHemsley> would there ever be a time when :root differs from whatever the first element is?
  672. # [22:20] <GPHemsley> e.g. on an HTML page, where :root differs from html
  673. # [22:20] <SimonSapin> :root is short for "the root element"
  674. # [22:20] <GPHemsley> so no?
  675. # [22:20] <SimonSapin> in HTML, that’s always <html> AFAIK
  676. # [22:21] * Quits: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  677. # [22:21] * Quits: fr0zenice (~frozenice@unaffiliated/fr0zenice) (Remote host closed the connection)
  678. # [22:21] <GPHemsley> which parts of determining what the "first page" is are set in stone?
  679. # [22:22] <SimonSapin> none, I guess
  680. # [22:23] <SimonSapin> set in clay that has not completely dried yet, maybe? :p
  681. # [22:23] <GPHemsley> ah, so what implementation cost are you referring to?
  682. # [22:24] * Joins: vcarbune (~vcarbune@80-218-192-6.dclient.hispeed.ch)
  683. # [22:26] <SimonSapin> cost of treating viewport units like percentages so that they can have a different value on each page
  684. # [22:27] <GPHemsley> oh
  685. # [22:27] <GPHemsley> I'm not arguing to allow their value to change per page
  686. # [22:27] <SimonSapin> yeah, the WG resolved against that
  687. # [22:27] <GPHemsley> just to allow their value to be based on a sane page
  688. # [22:28] <GPHemsley> I'm thinking it should be based on the size of whichever of :left or :right is first
  689. # [22:28] <GPHemsley> but before :first
  690. # [22:29] <SimonSapin> like, based on an hypothetical "unnamed" page that does not match any pseudo-class?
  691. # [22:29] <GPHemsley> sort of, yeah
  692. # [22:29] <GPHemsley> kind of, based on whatever :first is inheriting from
  693. # [22:29] <SimonSapin> "whichever of :left or :right is first" that depends on the 'direction' property on :root
  694. # [22:29] <GPHemsley> is that a problem?
  695. # [22:30] <SimonSapin> it’s not really inheriting
  696. # [22:30] <SimonSapin> not sure yet if that would work
  697. # [22:30] <GPHemsley> well, :left and :right both get their default values from @page, right?
  698. # [22:31] <SimonSapin> hum, not really
  699. # [22:31] <GPHemsley> then page progression and whatnot decides which of :left and :right becaomes :first
  700. # [22:31] <GPHemsley> oh
  701. # [22:31] <GPHemsley> specificity
  702. # [22:32] <GPHemsley> that's involved in here somewhere
  703. # [22:32] <SimonSapin> declarations for pages are qualified by a page selector which as specificity. The cascade picks a "winning" declaration for every property of every page based on a combination of stylesheet "origin" (UA, author, user), !important, specificity, and source order
  704. # [22:33] <SimonSapin> for selectors that match
  705. # [22:33] <SimonSapin> it’s the same cascade as on elements
  706. # [22:34] <GPHemsley> well, I'm thinking viewport units are determined at (0,0,x), where x is the highest number in context
  707. # [22:34] <GPHemsley> (if that even makes sense in the terminology)
  708. # [22:34] <SimonSapin> highest number?
  709. # [22:35] <GPHemsley> yeah, maybe it doesn't make sense
  710. # [22:35] <SimonSapin> Not sure what you mean
  711. # [22:37] <GPHemsley> can g or h every be >1 ?
  712. # [22:38] * GPHemsley is not sure where "This is 0 or 1. " applies
  713. # [22:39] <SimonSapin> no
  714. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> ok
  715. # [22:39] <SimonSapin> the syntax only allows zero or one page name per selector
  716. # [22:39] <SimonSapin> is the note unclear?
  717. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> yeah, a little
  718. # [22:39] <SimonSapin> how would you phrase it?
  719. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> the first few times I read it, I thought it applied to f, not g and h
  720. # [22:40] <SimonSapin> oh, sorry I misread you
  721. # [22:40] <SimonSapin> it applies to f, not g or h
  722. # [22:40] <GPHemsley> oh
  723. # [22:40] <GPHemsley> so, wait
  724. # [22:40] <GPHemsley> when would you have, e.g., (0,0,2)?
  725. # [22:42] <SimonSapin> "Given the syntax of page seletors, <var>f</var> can only ever be 0 or 1." Better?
  726. # [22:42] <GPHemsley> Sure, but now I still don't have an answer to the question I was really looking to answer. :P
  727. # [22:42] <SimonSapin> (0,0,2) with @page :left:left (which is silly) or @page :left:right (which never matches.) But they are allowed
  728. # [22:43] <SimonSapin> maybe in the future we’ll add more pseudo-classes
  729. # [22:43] <SimonSapin> :blank was added recently
  730. # [22:43] <GPHemsley> so, @page :left:left will override @page :left ?
  731. # [22:43] <SimonSapin> yes
  732. # [22:43] <SimonSapin> stronger specificity
  733. # [22:43] <GPHemsley> that seems strange
  734. # [22:43] <GPHemsley> but not really the issue at hand
  735. # [22:44] <SimonSapin> table:first-child:first-child does the same
  736. # [22:44] <GPHemsley> also strange
  737. # [22:44] <GPHemsley> but anyway
  738. # [22:45] <GPHemsley> viewport units should be calculated according to (0,0,x-1), where x is the specificity of the highest on the page
  739. # [22:45] * Parts: thisissam (thisissam@151.238.246.120)
  740. # [22:46] <GPHemsley> so, @page :first { font-size: 1vw } should be 1% of the width of @page :left:left
  741. # [22:46] <GPHemsley> (assuming @page :left:left specified)
  742. # [22:47] <GPHemsley> which is perhaps still an abuse of the terminology
  743. # [22:47] <GPHemsley> but hopefully it makes sense this time
  744. # [22:47] <SimonSapin> I’m still not sure how you determine X
  745. # [22:48] <GPHemsley> ok, hmm
  746. # [22:48] <GPHemsley> a page with a higher specificity inherits the properties of the lower specificities that also match, correct?
  747. # [22:48] <GPHemsley> (and then can override them)
  748. # [22:49] <SimonSapin> "inherit" is not the right word, but I see what you mean
  749. # [22:50] <SimonSapin> the proposal I’m writing up for www-style is more like: only consider @page rules without a selector for determining the viewport units.
  750. # [22:51] <GPHemsley> but aren't pseudo-classes selectors?
  751. # [22:52] <GPHemsley> s/classes/pages/ if you like
  752. # [22:52] <SimonSapin> "without a selector" is @page {} only
  753. # [22:52] <GPHemsley> so, no difference/dependence on :left vs. :right ?
  754. # [22:52] <SimonSapin> and pages don’t have specificity, selectors do. A given page *matches* a subset of all selectors. We get a bunch of declarations sorted by specificity of the matched selector
  755. # [22:53] <SimonSapin> yes
  756. # [22:53] <GPHemsley> yeah, I like that better
  757. # [22:53] <GPHemsley> but I thought that was bogged down by interactions with :root or something?
  758. # [22:53] <GPHemsley> (surely there was a reason I was led away from that proposal in my thinking...)
  759. # [22:54] <SimonSapin> that helps with part of the issue that you pointed out (and I hadn’t seen before:) the size of the actual first page depends on a lot of stuff, including named pages
  760. # [22:54] <SimonSapin> We want something like a "default" page
  761. # [22:54] <GPHemsley> right
  762. # [22:55] <SimonSapin> but that doesn’t change the circular definition of viewport units vs. page size
  763. # [22:56] <GPHemsley> remind me, why not?
  764. # [22:56] <SimonSapin> for that , sanest way out I see is change @page to not inherit from the root. Which is sad, but I don’t see better
  765. # [22:56] <GPHemsley> yeah, I still think that'd be more intuitive
  766. # [22:56] <SimonSapin> consider @page { width: 50vw }
  767. # [22:56] <SimonSapin> the width is 50% of itself
  768. # [22:56] <GPHemsley> what about size?
  769. # [22:57] <SimonSapin> when width is 'auto', its used value is size minus margins, borders and paddings
  770. # [22:57] <SimonSapin> (size is the default containing block of page boxes)
  771. # [22:57] <GPHemsley> what does that have to do with viewport? :P
  772. # [22:58] <GPHemsley> oh
  773. # [22:58] <SimonSapin> viewport units are proportional to the "initial containing block" which is effectively the used 'width' and 'height' of some page box
  774. # [22:59] <SimonSapin> so what we can do is declare that such units are invalid in 'width' and some other properties in @page
  775. # [22:59] <SimonSapin> the declarations are ignored
  776. # [23:00] <SimonSapin> but if font-size is based of viewport units, then em and other font-based units also indirectly depend on the ICB
  777. # [23:00] <GPHemsley> what would happen if @page viewport units were declared in reference to size?
  778. # [23:00] <GPHemsley> (or can you only have one definition of viewport units?)
  779. # [23:00] <SimonSapin> they would behave very differently than on screen
  780. # [23:01] <GPHemsley> ah
  781. # [23:01] <GPHemsley> would they, though?
  782. # [23:01] <SimonSapin> we want 100vw to be the same as `width: 100%` on the root
  783. # [23:01] <GPHemsley> what happens for :root { width: 50vw } ?
  784. # [23:01] <SimonSapin> (module scrollbars on screen …)
  785. # [23:01] <SimonSapin> then the root is smaller than the ICB
  786. # [23:02] <GPHemsley> right
  787. # [23:02] <SimonSapin> the ICB is the root’s own containing block
  788. # [23:02] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@c-76-21-215-221.hsd1.dc.comcast.net)
  789. # [23:03] <GPHemsley> size > @page > :root
  790. # [23:04] <GPHemsley> screen resolution > browser window > :root
  791. # [23:05] * Quits: gotwig (~gotwig@p4FF861E3.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  792. # [23:05] <SimonSapin> as in "bigger than"?
  793. # [23:06] <SimonSapin> yes, unless you have negative margins :)
  794. # [23:06] <GPHemsley> yeah, and also "contains"
  795. # [23:06] <GPHemsley> so what if you do?
  796. # [23:06] <SimonSapin> you could have :root wider than the page box
  797. # [23:06] <SimonSapin> width: 120%
  798. # [23:06] <GPHemsley> but then it overflows
  799. # [23:06] <SimonSapin> yes
  800. # [23:07] <SimonSapin> anyway, yes it’s conceptually contained that way
  801. # [23:07] <GPHemsley> but I mean, if you have :root { width: 120vw }
  802. # [23:07] <GPHemsley> what happens on screen?
  803. # [23:08] <SimonSapin> scrollbars, I suppose
  804. # [23:08] <GPHemsley> right
  805. # [23:08] <GPHemsley> because it overflows
  806. # [23:08] <SimonSapin> same with 120%
  807. # [23:08] <GPHemsley> but that doesn't redefine vw
  808. # [23:08] <SimonSapin> yes
  809. # [23:08] <GPHemsley> the difference between screen and page in this case is that you can't style "browser window" like you can with @page
  810. # [23:08] <SimonSapin> nothing in CSS can change the viewport on screen
  811. # [23:09] <GPHemsley> exactly
  812. # [23:09] <GPHemsley> but if you could, you'd predict @viewport { width: 100vw } to be relative to the screen resolution, wouldn't you?
  813. # [23:09] <SimonSapin> oh, wait, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-device-adapt/
  814. # [23:09] <GPHemsley> (perhaps @window would be better)
  815. # [23:09] <SimonSapin> @viewport is a thing
  816. # [23:10] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  817. # [23:10] <GPHemsley> does it fall into this analogy? (I hope)
  818. # [23:11] <SimonSapin> @viewport is described as similar to @page
  819. # [23:11] <GPHemsley> does it handle viewport units?
  820. # [23:11] <GPHemsley> (I'm not seeing that it does)
  821. # [23:12] <GPHemsley> <viewport-length> = auto | device-width | device-height | <length> | <percentage>
  822. # [23:12] <GPHemsley> <length>
  823. # [23:12] <GPHemsley> A positive absolute or relative length.
  824. # [23:12] <SimonSapin> "Viewport lengths (vw, vh, vmin, vmax) are relative to the initial viewport."
  825. # [23:13] <GPHemsley> initial viewport
  826. # [23:13] <GPHemsley> This refers to the viewport before any UA or author styles have overridden the viewport given by the window or viewing area of the UA. Note that the initial viewport size will change with the size of the window or viewing area.
  827. # [23:13] <GPHemsley> aka @page without selectors
  828. # [23:14] <SimonSapin> we could have viewport units inside @page be based on the default page size, like media queries
  829. # [23:14] <GPHemsley> wasn't that what I was saying? :P
  830. # [23:14] <SimonSapin> yeah, I just noticed :p
  831. # [23:15] <SimonSapin> except default without considering stylesheets at all, even @page without a selector
  832. # [23:15] <GPHemsley> right
  833. # [23:15] <SimonSapin> be vw can still "leak" from :root through inheritance
  834. # [23:15] <GPHemsley> remind me what the inheritance is now?
  835. # [23:16] <SimonSapin> the default font-size in an element is that of its parent
  836. # [23:17] <SimonSapin> :root is considered the "parent" of page boxes for the purpose of the cascade (determining computed values of properties)
  837. # [23:17] <GPHemsley> so viewport units in :root would be based on the size of the paper?
  838. # [23:17] <GPHemsley> that doesn't seem so bad
  839. # [23:19] <SimonSapin> hum, not quite
  840. # [23:20] <SimonSapin> the point is that vw inside @page would be based of the UA’s default (eg. always A4 portrait minus 2cm margins, in WeasyPrint) even if stylesheets specify something else
  841. # [23:20] <GPHemsley> ah
  842. # [23:21] <GPHemsley> is that bad?
  843. # [23:22] * Joins: Steve____ (~chatzilla@63.133.197.135)
  844. # [23:22] * Steve____ is now known as SteveF
  845. # [23:22] <GPHemsley> (consider that the viewport is not equal to the browser window, because of toolbars and the like)
  846. # [23:23] <SimonSapin> no, that’s actually better than making the declarations invalid
  847. # [23:23] <GPHemsley> yeah
  848. # [23:23] <SimonSapin> well, I think so
  849. # [23:23] <GPHemsley> I agree
  850. # [23:23] <GPHemsley> I never wanted to do that ;)
  851. # [23:23] <GPHemsley> oh, except in the beginning
  852. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> invalid is what CSS WG kind of agreed on so far
  853. # [23:24] <GPHemsley> where I was throwing them all away
  854. # [23:24] <GPHemsley> oh
  855. # [23:24] <GPHemsley> well
  856. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> but not a formal resolution
  857. # [23:24] <GPHemsley> they didn't spend the last two hours thinking it through
  858. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> that can be changed
  859. # [23:24] <GPHemsley> :P
  860. # [23:24] * Quits: bentruyman_ (~bentruyma@ec2-50-17-206-35.compute-1.amazonaws.com) (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
  861. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> (although even resolutions can be changed by another resolution :p)
  862. # [23:25] <GPHemsley> so... did we settle it all?
  863. # [23:25] <SimonSapin> I raised this issue months ago, and I just had to ideas that I didn’t see before ;)
  864. # [23:25] <GPHemsley> :)
  865. # [23:26] <SimonSapin> erf, I meant *you* just had *two* ideas
  866. # [23:26] <GPHemsley> it's easy to think outside the box when you have no idea where the box is
  867. # [23:26] <GPHemsley> (no pun intended)
  868. # [23:26] <SimonSapin> hehe
  869. # [23:28] <SimonSapin> one point remains, though:
  870. # [23:28] <SimonSapin> does @page never inherit properties from the root element, or is that only for the purpose of determining viewport units?
  871. # [23:29] <GPHemsley> I think it would be more intuitive if it were never
  872. # [23:30] <GPHemsley> because, to me, the root element is a child of the page
  873. # [23:30] <GPHemsley> contained within the page
  874. # [23:30] <GPHemsley> however you want to phrase it
  875. # [23:32] <SimonSapin> each fragment of the root box is inside the page box, yes
  876. # [23:32] <SimonSapin> but there is only one root element
  877. # [23:32] <SimonSapin> (to rule them all)
  878. # [23:33] <GPHemsley> root element > root boxes?
  879. # [23:33] <SimonSapin> And the cascade (where inheritance happens) needs to happen before layout (where page breaks happen)
  880. # [23:33] <SimonSapin> elements generate boxes based on the 'display' property, and these boxes are "fragmented" at line breaks, page breaks, column breaks, etc.
  881. # [23:34] <GPHemsley> and remind me, what kind of stuff would get inherited from :root by @page?
  882. # [23:36] <SimonSapin> potentially any properties
  883. # [23:36] <SimonSapin> some like font-size are inherited by default
  884. # [23:36] <SimonSapin> any property can accept the 'inherit' keyword
  885. # [23:37] <GPHemsley> ah, right
  886. # [23:37] <SimonSapin> so this is valid, although crazy: :root { margin: 10vw } @page { margin: inherit }
  887. # [23:37] <GPHemsley> and according to our new definition, what is that vw relative to?
  888. # [23:38] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-178-109-32.range86-178.btcentralplus.com)
  889. # [23:38] <GPHemsley> or is it invalid?
  890. # [23:38] * GPHemsley hopes you have this all written down already
  891. # [23:38] <SimonSapin> yes, I’m about to send it to www-style
  892. # [23:39] <SimonSapin> with what we discussed: `margin: inherit` has no inherited value, so the initial value is used. That is 0, for margin.
  893. # [23:40] <SimonSapin> 10vw is based on an hypothetical "default" page
  894. # [23:40] <GPHemsley> given that I think we wrote defined viewport units without reference to inheritance, it's probably OK to leave the :root/@page inheritance as is for now
  895. # [23:40] <GPHemsley> -wrote
  896. # [23:40] <SimonSapin> if you specify a page size on both :left and :right, no page will have the "default" size
  897. # [23:40] <GPHemsley> but the viewport units still will
  898. # [23:40] * Parts: FireFly (~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly) ("WeeChat 0.3.9.2")
  899. # [23:41] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  900. # [23:43] <SimonSapin> Sent: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0668.html
  901. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> Geez, that whole discussion distilled into that little e-mail?
  902. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> But cool
  903. # [23:45] * GPHemsley should probably get on www-style
  904. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> anyway, I'm gonna head out
  905. # [23:45] <GPHemsley> if anything interesting happens, let me know
  906. # [23:46] * Quits: vcarbune (~vcarbune@80-218-192-6.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  907. # [23:46] <GPHemsley> (I'll let you know if/when I subscribe to www-style)
  908. # [23:46] <SimonSapin> thanks again GPHemsley
  909. # [23:46] <GPHemsley> sure thing :)
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  914. # Session Close: Mon Feb 25 00:00:00 2013

The end :)