/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-26 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Feb 26 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:11] <Hixie> 1.2.3. => [1, 2, 3]
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# [00:11] <Hixie> .1.2.3 => ?
# [00:11] <Hixie> [0.1, 2, 3] ?
# [00:13] <Hixie> similarly, -1-2-3 => [-1, 2, 3]; what should -.1-.2-.3 go to?
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# [00:13] <Hixie> [-0.1, 2, 3] ? [-0.1, 0.2, 0.3] ?
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# [00:16] <esprehn_> Which algorithm is this?
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# [00:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yes to the first question. The latter to the second question.
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# [00:22] <Hixie> TabAtkins: k, i agree
# [00:22] <Hixie> esprehn_: the parser for table magical sort
# [00:23] <esprehn_> ah
# [00:23] <esprehn_> having worked on a large number of business apps, whatever you choose is going to be wrong anyway :)
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# [00:25] <esprehn_> inevitably someone will file a bug about a cell in the wrong order, and you'll have to hack it up
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# [00:34] <Hixie> esprehn_: yeah
# [00:34] <Hixie> esprehn_: but we can get the basics right at least
# [00:35] <Hixie> if 1e1 and 1.0e1 are both the same as 10
# [00:35] <Hixie> what should 1.e1 be?
# [00:35] <TabAtkins> Ask JS.
# [00:36] <TabAtkins> Apparently, the same as 1.0e1
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# [00:36] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately, that's different from CSS, which requires a digit after the ..
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# [00:40] <Hixie> --1--2 => ['-1', '-2'] ?
# [00:41] <Hixie> ---1---2 => ['-1', '-2'] ?
# [00:41] <Hixie> no
# [00:41] <Hixie> [-1, 2] maybe
# [00:41] <Hixie> but even that, probably not
# [00:41] <esprehn_> those should just be strings
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# [00:41] <esprehn_> '--1', '--2'
# [00:42] <esprehn_> TabAtkins: The next counters spec needs to call the counter name the "name" not the "identifier"
# [00:42] <Hixie> ---10---2 should clearly sort as greater than ---2---2
# [00:42] * esprehn_ is getting really tired of typing identifier
# [00:42] <Hixie> so there's definitely numbers involved
# [00:42] <Hixie> or maybe i should say, ---1---2 < ---1---10
# [00:42] <Hixie> since the first number might be arguably negative
# [00:42] <esprehn_> Hixie: you want credit card sort there
# [00:42] <Hixie> what is that?
# [00:42] <esprehn_> those aren't negative, it's an ascii sort
# [00:43] <esprehn_> sort as if all those dashes were 0's
# [00:43] <Hixie> why?
# [00:43] <Hixie> that seems no less weird
# [00:43] <esprehn_> because when you have dashes interspersed with numbers it's usually an obfuscation of a value
# [00:44] <esprehn_> or it's a phone number I guess, but not when you have repeated dashes
# [00:44] <esprehn_> ---1---2 is not < ---1---10 unless it has fewer digits, That's not 10, it's 1 and then 0
# [00:45] <Hixie> that seems like an equally wild guess to me
# [00:45] <esprehn_> What's your use case where those are real numbers?
# [00:45] <esprehn_> I'm talking about the real use case of the many tables I've seen with data like that, not guessing
# [00:45] <Hixie> urls?
# [00:45] <esprehn_> credit cards, account numbers, etc.
# [00:45] <Hixie> i haven't got any use cases with multiple hyphens currently
# [00:46] <Hixie> do you have an example of such a table i could study?
# [00:46] <esprehn_> unfortunately not
# [00:46] <esprehn_> it's not uncommon to show the first digit of some number, and then the last 4 though, or something vaguely like that
# [00:47] <esprehn_> Consider something like amazon that shows Saved Credit Card: ******1234
# [00:47] <esprehn_> So then ------10 and ------12
# [00:47] <Hixie> seems like that would sort fine regardless
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# [00:49] <esprehn_> Hixie: hmm
# [00:50] <Hixie> i agree that it means we should sort them as not negative
# [00:50] <Hixie> but other than that, still seems best to sort numerically
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# [00:55] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Empty elements after separation are discarded?
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# [00:56] <Hixie> no, it's rather more involved than that
# [00:56] <Hixie> right now i'm just trying to work out how to take numbers out of strings
# [00:56] <Hixie> the rest is a separate problem (mostly already solved)
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# [00:57] <esprehn_> I might suggest looking at COBOL and ColdFusion's magical sorting and list operations
# [00:58] <Hixie> will do, thanks
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# [04:30] <karlcow> MikeSmith: I guess it is not Anne's version https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
# [04:31] <karlcow> ah found http://url.spec.whatwg.org/
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# [05:59] <Hixie> what should 1.2a3.4a5.6 be treated like?
# [06:00] <Hixie> 1,2,3,4,5,6 and some strings? 1.2,3.4,5.6 and some strings? 1.2,3,4,5,6 and some strings?
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# [08:06] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I guess 1.2,3.4,5.6 would seem like the most intuitive
# [08:06] <MikeSmith> unsurprising
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# [10:22] <jgraham> Argh. Where is zcorpan when you need him?
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# [10:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: yt?
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# [10:36] <annevk5> smaug____: so we have moz-blob which is incremental...
# [10:36] * annevk5 is now known as annevk
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# [10:44] <smaug____> yes
# [10:45] <smaug____> which is why it is very different to the new proposal
# [10:51] <annevk> I don't follow
# [10:51] <annevk> smaug____: how is it different?
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# [10:52] <smaug____> oh, wait, you say incremental as latter Blobs containing all the data
# [10:52] <smaug____> from the beginning
# [10:53] <annevk> all I meant was available during LOADING
# [10:53] <smaug____> sorry, I was thinking about the chunked thing
# [10:53] * smaug____ checks who added moz-blob
# [10:54] <smaug____> sounds like sicking-ish thing
# [10:54] <annevk> yes
# [11:00] <smaug____> I guess I need to change my mind
# [11:01] <smaug____> the .iso usecase is quite valid one
# [11:04] <annevk> smaug____: so we do the semantics we discussed yesterday?
# [11:05] <smaug____> yeah
# [11:05] <smaug____> but then, if we get incremental blobs and typedarrays, shouldn't we have partial data to
# [11:05] <smaug____> I mean chunked data
# [11:05] <smaug____> what was the original bug report
# [11:06] <smaug____> w3c bug report
# [11:06] <smaug____> is it about incremental or chunked
# [11:06] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21111 is for blob/arraybuffer during LOADING
# [11:06] <annevk> The discussion about chunked resulted in the addition of stream
# [11:06] <annevk> That discussion was mailing-list only
# [11:06] <smaug____> so
# [11:07] <smaug____> with incremental we're getting close to a stream like anyway
# [11:07] <annevk> I'll ask why Stream is no good.
# [11:09] <smaug____> because it is not implemented ?
# [11:09] <smaug____> but really, incremental and chunked are so close to each others
# [11:10] <smaug____> scripts can use incremental as chunked
# [11:10] <smaug____> but memory usage would be just higher that way
# [11:10] <smaug____> in some cases
# [11:11] <annevk> smaug____: neither is blob during LOADING in WebKit...
# [11:11] <annevk> smaug____: or in Gecko for the keyword "blob"
# [11:12] <annevk> smaug____: and the Streams API is about incremental the way it is currently set up
# [11:12] <smaug____> how is Stream better?
# [11:12] <smaug____> (other than better name)
# [11:13] <annevk> It's an object that incrementally expands and does not have a fixed .size
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# [11:13] <smaug____> eh
# [11:13] <annevk> Arguably Blob should have been designed that way...
# [11:14] * smaug____ re-reads the spec
# [11:14] <annevk> I wonder how Streams API got published including StreamBuilder :-(
# [11:14] <smaug____> I meant s/Stream/Stream API/
# [11:15] <smaug____> so yes, are we talking about Stream interface or API
# [11:15] <annevk> Stream is defined in the Streams API
# [11:15] <smaug____> since I asked about API, but I guess you're talking about the interface
# [11:15] <annevk> There's not much more to the spec...
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# [11:18] <smaug____> so, you'd get Stream from XHR , and then read it separate ?
# [11:18] <smaug____> separately
# [11:18] <smaug____> and not care about XHR
# [11:18] <annevk> That's the same with Blob
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# [11:20] <annevk> I'm not entirely sure StreamReader has the correct design though :-(
# [11:22] <Ms2ger`> Sounds like a good web API, then
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# [11:22] <smaug____> does it allow incremental and chunked...
# [11:22] <smaug____> I don't quite see that
# [11:23] <annevk> I think only incremental
# [11:27] <smaug____> well, then adding something similar to moz-blob to XHR wouldn't make sense
# [11:28] <smaug____> I would expect an API called Stream to deal with chunked data
# [11:29] <annevk> Could we design it to handle both?
# [11:30] <smaug____> well, what if there are two StreamReaders. First one reading chunked data, and then another reading incremental
# [11:31] <smaug____> the latter would like to get all the data since the beginning
# [11:31] <smaug____> but I'd like to be able to discard the already read data
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# [11:31] <smaug____> (that is a reason for moz-chunked-* in XHR)
# [11:32] <annevk> I understand
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# [11:33] <smaug____> back in few minutes
# [11:34] <annevk> smaug____: one question, does moz-blob create a new Blob object each time you access it?
# [11:34] <annevk> I'll draft an email to public-webapps to sort this out
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# [11:48] <annevk> Oh smaug just left. How rude. Well I figured it out via testing anyway
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# [11:50] <smaug____> annevk: looks like moz-blob does not create a new object each time
# [11:50] <smaug____> only if there is some new data
# [11:50] <annevk> ah good to know
# [11:51] <smaug____> and sorry being so rude :)
# [11:51] <smaug____> so, will we need Stream and IncrementalStream. Though the latter sounds odd. It is more like IncrementalBlob
# [11:56] <annevk> smaug____: oh, I reached the opposite conclusion :-)
# [11:56] <annevk> smaug____: see public-webapps
# [11:57] <smaug____> it wasn't really my conclusion :)
# [11:57] <annevk> smaug____: given that an incremental Blob can be done via masquerade, all the additional API complexity of Stream does not seem worth it
# [11:57] <smaug____> helsinki.fi, could you be a bit faster today
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# [11:58] <smaug____> ah
# [11:59] <annevk> Hmm strange. Feras Moussa is listed as Invited Expert. Is he no longer at Microsoft?
# [12:00] <smaug____> as of now, I'd like to have incremental and chunked in XHR
# [12:00] <smaug____> but need to get more comments
# [12:00] <smaug____> since I thought Stream was about chunked data
# [12:00] <smaug____> but the spec doesn't say that
# [12:00] <smaug____> or I can't find it
# [12:01] <smaug____> s/Stream/StreamReader/
# [12:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: Feras is no longer at Microsoft. But he intends to continue editing the Streams spec
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# [12:01] <annevk> smaug____: the API does not look like it's chunked, although maxSize does suggest that I suppose...
# [12:02] <annevk> MikeSmith: I see
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# [12:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: Here now
# [12:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: I was looking for Opera's postMessage tests
# [12:12] <jgraham> But I found them
# [12:12] <jgraham> They all need conversion though :(
# [12:12] <gsnedders> Okay. I don't where to look anyway. :)
# [12:13] <jgraham> It seems we are going to do that farcical thing where we ask Microsoft "are your tests good enough to take this spec forward?" And they say "yes of course they are, after all we pass them all".
# [12:13] <jgraham> For messaging as well as web sockets
# [12:14] <gsnedders> What about zcorpan's web sockets tests?
# [12:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: They are still partially unconverted to testharness format
# [12:16] <jgraham> I guess this is what I need to spend my evenings doing
# [12:16] <jgraham> Rather than working on critic
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# [12:43] <marcosc> The JSON spec says that JSON text shall be Unicode (i.e., UTF-8 to 32). Chrome fails to parse UTF-16, big endian, no BOM. OTOH, FireFox refuse to parse any UTF-16, except UTF-16-LE with no BOM. Have not tested UTF-32.
# [12:44] <annevk> marcosc: parse where?
# [12:44] <marcosc> annevk: JSON.parse()
# [12:44] <annevk> marcosc: that takes a JavaScript string
# [12:44] <marcosc> ah
# [12:45] <annevk> XMLHttpRequest only supports JSON encoded as utf-8
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# [12:45] <marcosc> annevk: I'm pulling in the JSON text through XHR
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# [12:45] <annevk> marcosc: it's already decoded at that point depending your server configuration and the specifics of how you're using XMLHttpRequest...
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# [13:00] <marcosc> annevk: in the XHR, when open() is called, what's the reason for dropping the <fragment> component from the URL?
# [13:00] <annevk> marcosc: that's how HTTP works
# [13:01] <annevk> marcosc: sounds like you're not reading http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/ though which is much better
# [13:01] <annevk> marcosc: and defers for that particular thing to Fetch
# [13:01] <marcosc> ah! I'm not
# [13:01] <annevk> (which I'm trying to work out now...)
# [13:03] <marcosc> In the manifest spec, I really just want to say: behave as if performing an XHR open() request with URL set to bla, and method set to GET.
# [13:03] <marcosc> Otherwise, I'm going to end up cloning a bunch of stuff from the XHR spec
# [13:03] <marcosc> which sucks
# [13:03] <annevk> marcosc: oh no, you want to use fetch
# [13:04] <marcosc> fetch from HTML?
# [13:04] <annevk> marcosc: yes
# [13:04] <marcosc> ok
# [13:04] <annevk> marcosc: until I've written Fetch and then everyone can use that
# [13:04] <annevk> it will be glorious
# [13:04] <marcosc> I can imagine! :)
# [13:05] <marcosc> ok, so http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#fetch is currently incomplete then.
# [13:07] * marcosc lunch
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# [13:15] <annevk> marcosc: nah it's complete, just not detailed (imo)
# [13:15] <annevk> I wish Hixie was around
# [13:34] <odinho> And not with a nice URL and its own easy hookpoint :]
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# [14:13] <SteveF_> marcosc: johnny kannis was probably before your time ;-)
# [14:14] <marcosc> SteveF_: yep :)
# [14:14] <marcosc> but I don't mind :)
# [14:14] <SteveF_> marcosc: was following odd trains of thought and music while suffering from stomach cramps hitme were a great sydney pub rock band btw
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# [14:14] <SteveF_> hitmen
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# [14:15] <SteveF_> marcosc: wasn't meaning to make a wog connection...
# [14:16] <marcosc> heh, now you have :)
# [14:17] * marcosc throws SteveF_ a rope out of the hole. Funky tunes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnjuGYU-gCA
# [14:18] * SteveF_ ;-)
# [14:19] * marcosc gets all in the mood for some bad 80's rock
# [14:19] * SteveF_ seeing them drinking longnecks in that vid really took me back
# [14:23] <marcosc> me too, I was 12 again :)
# [14:23] * SteveF_ remember seeing the angels as an underager out in the western sydney beerbarns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiOQzWTz3cM
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# [14:24] <SteveF_> marcosc: where did you live in oz?
# [14:24] <marcosc> Brisbane
# [14:25] <SteveF_> say no more
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# [14:28] * SteveF_ I'm a bankstown boy myself
# [14:30] <jgraham> Are we supposed to hum that to the tune of uptown girl?
# [14:30] <annevk> Please record if you do
# [14:33] <annevk> aaah
# [14:33] <smaug____> does anyone actually use microdata thing
# [14:34] <annevk> smaug____: you'd have to elaborate on thing
# [14:34] <annevk> smaug____: but e.g. http://schema.org/ backed by the search engines recommends using it to people
# [14:34] <smaug____> "recommends" does mean anyone actually uses it
# [14:34] <smaug____> er
# [14:34] <smaug____> doesn't
# [14:34] * SteveF_ context of 'bansktown boys boys don't cry' statement made by the honourable Paul Keating PM http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/an-ode-to-paul-keating/
# [14:35] <annevk> smaug____: if nobody is using it I wish they'd stop discussing it
# [14:35] <SteveF_> his observation of marcosc's buddy John Howard "What we have got is a dead carcass, swinging in the breeze, but nobody will cut it down to replace him. "
# [14:36] <marcosc> Oh lolz, slightlyoff! The comments here are hilarious: https://github.com/slightlyoff/async-local-storage/blob/master/src/async-local-storage.js
# [14:38] <jgraham> They might be funny
# [14:38] <jgraham> But they are not all on-base
# [14:38] <jgraham> I have no idea why .length implied "ordered" for example
# [14:38] <marcosc> oh, they are spot on
# [14:39] <marcosc> Just a little out of character for the oh ever so eloquent slightlyoff
# [14:39] <jgraham> (certainly in python it doesn't)
# [14:39] <jgraham> (where len(set([1,2,1])) == 2, just like you would expect)
# [14:40] <jgraham> (and you can't index a set by number there either)
# [14:41] <jgraham> (or indeed a dict, which *also* has a __len__)
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# [14:45] <jgraham> Also, navigator??
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# [15:04] <marcosc> jgraham: yeah, navigator is that's a strange place to put that
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# [17:12] <slightlyoff> marcosc: dude, LS + IDB is enough to make anyone swear like a sailor
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# [17:37] <annevk> jgraham: I suggested navigator I think, where would you put it?
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# [17:42] <marcosc> slightlyoff: amen to that :)
# [17:42] <slightlyoff> marcosc: i honestly don't understand transactions in IDB
# [17:42] <slightlyoff> and I think I made a serious attempt to understand them
# [17:43] <slightlyoff> I'm currently digging through chromium code to grok why FF and Chrome differ in timing/end-of-turn behavior
# [17:43] <zewt> jgraham: yeah, "length", "count" and "size" mean exactly the same thing, and it's nonsensical to not use the same term for all data structures
# [17:43] <marcosc> I haven't even gotten that far. I lost the plot and started swearing long even before getting the object store going
# [17:43] <slightlyoff> not true
# [17:43] <slightlyoff> zewt: length is a 1-dimensional measure
# [17:43] <slightlyoff> it implies ordering
# [17:43] <zewt> length does not imply ordering
# [17:44] <marcosc> slightlyoff: I'm currently playing around with Q to get a better understanding of promises, so I can contribute a bit
# [17:44] <slightlyoff> I will leave basic number theory as an exercise to the reader.
# [17:44] * tantek gets the popcorn and grabs a seat.
# [17:44] <zewt> ...
# [17:44] <slightlyoff> tantek: sorry man, have go to do real work...no time for this = )
# [17:44] <zewt> we're talking about "length" as a property of a data set, which has nothing to do with the length of a vector or a line in space
# [17:44] <tantek> slightlyoff :)
# [17:44] <Ms2ger> Clearly it should be "norm"
# [17:45] <slightlyoff> tantek: but you know...if you think zewt isn't *just* a troll, I invite you to try
# [17:45] <jgraham> "cardinality"
# [17:45] <jgraham> slightlyoff: zewt isn't a troll
# [17:45] <zewt> i don't care if it's "length" or "size" or "count" or "elephants", all i care is that it be the same term for all of arrays, maps, sets
# [17:45] <jgraham> But you two rub each other up the wrong way something chronic
# [17:45] <karlcow> love to hate
# [17:46] <tantek> jgraham, you have to pay extra for that in SF.
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# [17:47] <zewt> (and since .length is what's already used by JS strings, it wins by default)
# [17:47] * karlcow is now diving into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable_set
# [17:48] <annevk> Map uses size
# [17:49] <zewt> then map made a dumb mistake
# [17:49] <annevk> zewt: it's not settled yet, you could argue it on es-discuss
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# [17:50] <karlcow> in my mind, `length` has a unit after it. When `count` does not have.
# [17:51] <jgraham> karlcow: Then lenght is equally wrong for strings and arrays :)
# [17:51] <jgraham> *length
# [17:51] <karlcow> that said programming languages used mostly len()
# [17:51] <zewt> karlcow: it sounds like you're thinking of "length" as a physical unit--that's simply a different concept of length
# [17:51] <annevk> DOMTokenList uses .length
# [17:51] <karlcow> zewt: Pardon my physics ;) that's my academic background.
# [17:52] <annevk> but the tokens are ordered there iirc
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# [17:52] * karlcow creates .howmany
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# [17:54] <jgraham> annevk: It would be super surprising if you had a Set and a SortedSet and they didn't implement the same API
# [17:54] <Ms2ger> Sounds like something Java would do
# [17:55] <annevk> jgraham: are you going to do something about it?
# [17:55] <zewt> heh, also one of the sillier things C++'s STL does: it only exposes a method for something if it can be computed efficiently
# [17:55] <zewt> so (iirc) you have .size on strings, but not linked lists; to get that you have to use a count method
# [17:55] <zewt> which is the worst sort of academic API design
# [17:56] <jgraham> annevk: By "do something" you mean "join es-discuss and argue about naming"?
# [17:56] <karlcow> hmmm http://twitter.com/FakeOpvard/
# [17:57] <annevk> jgraham: yes
# [17:57] <annevk> Also, Blob.size
# [17:58] <annevk> ProgressEvent.total
# [17:58] <annevk> We're all over the map already.
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# [17:58] <karlcow> sweet, all the million ways of counting
# [18:01] <jgraham> annevk: I'm going with "I probably have more valuable things to do than argue with slightlyoff that he is making the platform harder to learn for no good reason"
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# [18:03] <tantek> count: more a verb (method) than a noun (property) "Let me count the ways…". length: physical 1-dimensional measure thus implying it depends on the thing you're measuring and how you're measuring it. size: could be arbitrary, but for some reason I associate strongly with "number of bytes this thing takes up in memory".
# [18:03] <annevk> jgraham: pretty sure he doesn't follow es-discuss closely
# [18:04] <jgraham> (I would argue that non-native speakers wouldn't get the slight semantic difference between "length" and "size", but since I am a native speaker and I have no idea where the idea that "length" implies "ordered" comes from, I don't think I even need that argument)
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# [18:04] <jgraham> (I can only imagine it comes from exposure to some other programming language (Java?) that makes that distinction)
# [18:05] <jgraham> tantek: That "some reason" is presumably sizeof(t)
# [18:05] <zewt> it smells like something taught by a well-intentioned college professor, then internalized and never properly questioned
# [18:06] <tantek> we leave all the proper questioning to #whatwg naturally
# [18:06] <tantek> jgraham - yes, that sounds right. from years of C(++) programming.
# [18:07] <zewt> i have more years of C and C++ than any other language and I've never even heard of that distinction
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# [18:17] <annevk> Hixie: so, how is potential CORS fetch with "No CORS" different from fetch?
# [18:17] <karlcow> jgraham: for size, I imagine volume, in my head. Maybe because of the French "taille".
# [18:17] <karlcow> oh we didn't touch yet to quantity :p
# [18:21] <karlcow> .vastness, .immensity, .magnitude if at least the naming could be more poetic
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# [18:23] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
# [18:23] <annevk> karlcow: we don't want to make it worse
# [18:24] <annevk> dglazkov: good afternoon
# [18:24] <annevk> dglazkov: you used to hit tea time :p
# [18:24] <karlcow> annevk: heh. But that would be more fun. :)
# [18:25] <annevk> karlcow: only the perverse kind of fun, but I can see how that makes sense to you
# [18:25] <karlcow> at least that would give "left to interpretation" a meaning.
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# [18:38] <Hixie> annevk: regular fetch doesn't label the thing as cross-origin
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# [18:52] <annevk> Hixie: sure, but is that a feature in some way?
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# [18:55] <Hixie> annevk: how do you mean?
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# [18:55] <Hixie> it's a feature for the spec, in that it needs to know for every <img> whether it's cors-same-origin or not
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# [18:56] <annevk> Hixie: is it a feature of "fetch" that you don't know the label?
# [18:57] <annevk> Hixie: cause otherwise we could make it one algorithm
# [18:57] <annevk> (might go offline for a minute or so, will read the minutes)
# [18:57] <annevk> logs*
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# [19:00] <odinho> lol, minutes.
# [19:00] <odinho> Too much W3C for you Anne.
# [19:01] <odinho> Or formalized meetings I guess.
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# [19:06] <Hixie> annevk: well i don't really care how you implement it, so long as the API doesn't change :-)
# [19:06] <Hixie> annevk: the key is that when calling this algorithm, i don't know what the mode is
# [19:07] <Hixie> annevk: i just "Do a potentially CORS-enabled fetch of the resulting absolute URL, with the mode being the state of the element's crossorigin content attribute, the origin being the origin of the script element's Document, and the default origin behaviour set to taint" or similar
# [19:07] <Hixie> annevk: and then that returns a resource that is "either CORS-same-origin or CORS-cross-origin"
# [19:07] <Hixie> annevk: i think it would be confusing to have the regular fetch algorithm returning CORS states
# [19:07] <Hixie> annevk: since every caller would ignore it
# [19:09] <annevk> but I think at some point every caller will turn into a potential CORS-caller
# [19:09] <annevk> but yeah, not knowing the CORS-mode makes sense, and we should have "No CORS"
# [19:10] <annevk> I was just wondering whether there's a material difference between the two which I didn't see
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# [19:17] <annevk> Hixie: also see email about Anonymous mode
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# [19:18] <annevk> odinho: actually surprisingly few these days, WHATWG ftw
# [19:19] <Hixie> how do you set Origin: to a unique origin?
# [19:19] <Hixie> and does Referer: really gets set to about:blank?
# [19:19] <annevk> Hixie: Origin: null
# [19:19] <annevk> Hixie: I think that makes Referer omitted
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# [19:20] <Hixie> so wait, why isn't CORS just doing all this automatically when one sets the flag?
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# [19:27] <zewt> hmm, something that seems like it should be easy but i'm drawing a blank
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# [19:28] <zewt> i have some CSS drawing a thing (gradient background, rounded corners), used in one UI; i need to export that rendering (with alpha) to a PNG for use in a non-HTML element with similar styles
# [19:29] <annevk> Hixie: XHR has both anonymous and without credentials
# [19:30] <annevk> Hixie: anonymous is an extremer variant
# [19:30] <zewt> bleh, guess it's easier to recreate it in photoshop than to figure out a way to do this
# [19:30] <Hixie> annevk: confoosing
# [19:30] <Hixie> annevk: why so many?
# [19:30] <annevk> sorry, if I would design this now it'd be way different
# [19:31] <Hixie> hehe
# [19:31] <Hixie> i know that feeling
# [19:31] <Hixie> bbiab
# [19:31] <annevk> initially we just had withCredentials
# [19:31] <annevk> and then people wanted a mode without Origin or Referer
# [19:31] <annevk> without any identifying information
# [19:31] <annevk> and they got enough backing from silly implementors
# [19:32] <odinho> Silly!
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# [19:33] * Ms2ger never designs anything for that reason
# [19:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: was Text.serializeXXX not you?
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# [19:34] <Ms2ger> Never got implemented, did it? ;)
# [19:35] <annevk> Ms2ger: "never designs" is clearly false though
# [19:42] <TabAtkins> zewt: That's what screenshots are for.
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# [19:53] <zewt> no alpha
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> Ah, that's true. Darn.
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> No way, then, since you can't draw DOM into <canvas> yet.
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# [21:39] <JonathanNeal> hello
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# [21:59] <rillian> howdy
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# [22:02] <JonathanNeal> So, how does <template> get around not having any logic, say for if statements or loops?
# [22:03] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: It has loops. I think we have a way to avoid generating things, as well, which is basically an if.
# [22:03] <TabAtkins> (Don't know if that's in the current revision of the spec.)
# [22:07] <JonathanNeal> Is there a draft of the spec that you think might address these things?
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# [22:12] <jamesr> anyone have a good readymade rant about linking to /TR/ ?
# [22:12] <jamesr> JonathanNeal, https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html
# [22:12] <Hixie> jamesr: "it's out of date"
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# [22:14] <jamesr> JonathanNeal, that's pretty heavy on technical detail and light on explanations it seems
# [22:14] <JonathanNeal> Yea, I'm trying to extrapolate an example.
# [22:15] <JonathanNeal> > Just after the step labeled "Loop" in the algorithm to reset the insertion mode appropriately, add the following step: If node is a template element, then switch the insertion mode to the current template insertion mode and abort these steps. Modify the step which begins "If node is a head element..." to be …
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# [22:48] <JonathanNeal> https://twitter.com/jon_neal/status/306521507784445952
# [22:48] <JonathanNeal> IE10 is out for Windows 7.
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# [23:06] <ronaldmansveld> Does any of you happen to have experience with the w3c community groups?
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# [23:07] <ronaldmansveld> As in: has any of you been part of one?
# [23:12] <jgraham> Yes
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# [23:16] <ronaldmansveld> jgraham, what I take from it, these groups create reports that may or may not be used by the w3c to use as the foundation for a working draft, right? So it's like the very first stage of creating specs
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# [23:16] <TabAtkins> ronaldmansveld: Basically, yes. They're not WGs, so can't produce specs themselves, but it gives a nice gathering-place for interested parties to hash out early ideas into something presentable.
# [23:17] <ronaldmansveld> jgraham, and secondly, how do these groups work, cause for what I can see some have been created, have contributors, but seem to be doing nothing for like a year
# [23:18] <ronaldmansveld> TabAtkins, thanks :) That was basically my idea of what they would be doing
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# [23:36] <jgraham> ronaldmansveld: Well it's not really clear that they work :)
# [23:37] <jgraham> Creating a group is easy
# [23:37] <jgraham> Creating a critical mass of interested, and relevant, parties actually working on a problem in a meaningful way is hard
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# [23:38] <jgraham> e.g. if you want to suggest something new for browsers you really want browser vendors on board
# [23:38] <jgraham> So you are much better off using WHATWG since they are already there
# [23:38] <ronaldmansveld> hmm, i see
# [23:38] <ronaldmansveld> cause in this case there's one group I'm interested in working with, since it touches what I deal with on a daily base
# [23:39] <ronaldmansveld> but it seems like nothing happened since they started almost a year ago
# [23:40] <jgraham> Which group?
# [23:40] <ronaldmansveld> multilingual web site
# [23:40] <ronaldmansveld> http://www.w3.org/community/mws/
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# [23:45] <jgraham> Well the good news is that's nothing browser related
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# [23:46] <jgraham> So I guess just try sending mail to the group list and see if you can get some momentum going?
# [23:46] <ronaldmansveld> I'll wait for my application to come through, and then I will, thanks :)
# [23:47] <ronaldmansveld> (and even though the start-up document does mention browser-related changes, I disagree with that, but that's something to discuss with the group)
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# Session Close: Wed Feb 27 00:00:00 2013

The end :)