/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 27 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:22] <JonathanNeal> All web developers should rejoice! https://twitter.com/jon_neal/status/306544841641308160 Automatic updates in IE10 are enabled by default on first run http://i.imgur.com/j5jFjUa.png
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  15. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> \o/
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  33. # [01:11] <aklein> hsivonen: hey there. I'd ask Hixie too, but he seems to be away, so I'm going to ask your opinion first. when the HTML parser spec says to look in the stack of open elements for an element with the "same tag name as that of the token", is it supposed to imply a namespace check as well as localName (the token, naturally, has no namespace)?
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  36. # [01:17] <gsnedders> aklein: If it doesn't that's a spec bug.
  37. # [01:17] <gsnedders> (Regardless, is there any way to create a case where the namespaces differ?)
  38. # [01:17] <gsnedders> (I can't think of any)
  39. # [01:19] <gsnedders> (Becuase I think it assumes they cannot differ.)
  40. # [01:19] <gsnedders> (But it'd be nice to have the assumption explicit)
  41. # [01:19] <aklein> gsnedders: foreign content allows non-HTML elements onto the stack, and MathML (at least; may apply to SVG too) has cases that go back to HTML mode
  42. # [01:20] <gsnedders> aklein: But when can you hit any of the same-tag-name-as-that-of-the-token cases like that?
  43. # [01:21] <gsnedders> Given you break out of foreign content when you hit anything that causes that?
  44. # [01:21] <aklein> sadly not everything breaks out of foreign content
  45. # [01:22] <gsnedders> But what of things that search the stack?
  46. # [01:22] <aklein> thead, tbody, and tfoot, for example, are allowed in foreign content
  47. # [01:22] <gsnedders> But closing any of them merely pops the item off the top of the stack, if it is the top of the stack.
  48. # [01:22] <gsnedders> And if it's the top of the stack, they'll be handled as a foregin content element anyway.
  49. # [01:23] <gsnedders> s/element/tag/
  50. # [01:23] <aklein> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html#parsing-main-intbody is one case where this comes up
  51. # [01:24] <gsnedders> Oh, the "clear the stack back to a table body content".
  52. # [01:25] <aklein> yeah, there's more than just closing that element
  53. # [01:25] <gsnedders> Well, if it's comparing with the current node I'd assume it's namespace, localName tuple.
  54. # [01:25] * gsnedders wonders what UAs do.
  55. # [01:25] <aklein> but tokens don't have any namespace
  56. # [01:26] <gsnedders> The stack of open elements isn't tokens, though
  57. # [01:26] <zewt> does anybody actually implement the stream API (StreamBuilder, StreamReader), or is that still just a proposal spec?
  58. # [01:27] <aklein> right, the stack clearly has elements in it
  59. # [01:27] <gsnedders> aklein: And it's clear it back to one of these elements (as named, per xref in HTML NS)
  60. # [01:27] <jamesr> zewt, is that this? https://bugs.webkit.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=110194&hide_resolved=1
  61. # [01:27] <gsnedders> aklein: On the other hand, the "same tag name as that of the token" case is ambiguious
  62. # [01:27] <jamesr> (i'm not sure, haven't looked at those patches)
  63. # [01:28] <jamesr> and there's a link to a public-webapps discussion
  64. # [01:28] <zewt> (mostly curious about whether that spec is actually going anywhere, not trying to use it)
  65. # [01:28] <jamesr> zewt, that's a good question!
  66. # [01:28] <jamesr> somebody cares enough to post patches to WK
  67. # [01:30] <aklein> gsnedders: yup, it's that ambiguity I'm wondering about. it seems totally reasonable to assume it means "in the html namespace", just want to make sure there's not some case where comparing only tag names is important
  68. # [01:30] <Hixie> aklein: pretty sure the namespace can't matter, but do you have a sample string input that i can work through to see the problem?
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  70. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2114
  71. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Everybody ignores namespaces, which seems bad
  72. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Except IE.
  73. # [01:31] <gsnedders> Not tested that.
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  75. # [01:33] <gsnedders> IE10/Win8 ignores namespaces too.
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  78. # [01:34] * gsnedders would much rather change behaviour everywhere, FWIW
  79. # [01:35] <Hixie> well that input is obviously bogus, right? not clear what the obvious answer is; what the spec says seems reasonable on the face of it.
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  81. # [01:35] <aklein> I definitely can't think of any non-bogus inputs :)
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  83. # [01:36] <aklein> Hixie: I think the bad thing is to have a mismatch between the "is this in scope?" check and the further manipulation of the stack/tree
  84. # [01:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: Sometimes you're compared a token name with an element name, and sometimes an element name with an element name. Does the latter imply a namespace check? The former cannot have one.
  85. # [01:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: That seems bad.
  86. # [01:37] <Hixie> the spec never implies anything.
  87. # [01:38] <gsnedders> "Search through the stack of open elements till you reach [xref'd] html element". That has a namespace check, right?
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  89. # [01:38] <gsnedders> As that xref is to the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml html element
  90. # [01:38] <Hixie> well if it says to reach an actual specific kind of element from a specific vocabulary, sure, but then that's not comparing element names
  91. # [01:38] <Hixie> it's comparing element type identity
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  93. # [01:39] <gsnedders> Then we're also searching through it comparing token name to element name.
  94. # [01:39] <aklein> the algorithm says "If node is the target node, terminate in a match state."
  95. # [01:39] <gsnedders> What's the element's name? Where's is the term element name.
  96. # [01:39] <gsnedders> *term element name defined?
  97. # [01:39] <Hixie> i don't understand any of the last four lines :-)
  98. # [01:39] <aklein> so I think it's that "is the target node" check that's important here
  99. # [01:40] <aklein> Hixie: I'm looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html#has-an-element-in-the-specific-scope
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  102. # [01:40] * gsnedders looks more closely at the spec
  103. # [01:40] * gsnedders votes for adding this as a TC to html5lib regardless :)
  104. # [01:41] <Hixie> i guess it's weird that <svg><tbody><foreignobject></tbody> is different than <svg><tbody><foreignobject><div></tbody>
  105. # [01:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: The spec refers to "tag name" for element. This is undefined.
  106. # [01:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: How is that different?
  107. # [01:41] <Hixie> aklein: in gsnedders' test case, that doesn't come up
  108. # [01:42] <Hixie> gsnedders: </tbody> in the second check aborts at <foreignobject>
  109. # [01:42] <Hixie> gsnedders: so it gets ignored
  110. # [01:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: Where does it abort?
  111. # [01:42] <aklein> Hixie: ah, it does in the MathML Text Integration Point cases I've been dealing with
  112. # [01:42] <Hixie> gsnedders: "in body" any other end tag, because foreignobject is special
  113. # [01:43] <Hixie> file bugs or send mail to the whatwg list
  114. # [01:43] <Hixie> i have to go
  115. # [01:43] <aklein> Hixie: will do
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  117. # [01:44] <gsnedders> Is <svg><foreignobject><div> a parse error?
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  119. # [01:45] <gsnedders> (Am I being stupid here, where does opening foreignobject do any magic?)
  120. # [01:46] <gsnedders> Oh, at the top of the Tree construction section.
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  123. # [01:48] <gsnedders> aklein: CC me on bug/email, plz?
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  129. # [01:53] <gsnedders> Oh, my TC hits a different case to what I thought it did!
  130. # [01:53] <gsnedders> Gah!
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  132. # [01:56] <aklein> gsnedders: may take me a few days, I stumbled onto this quite by accident while working on something else
  133. # [01:56] <gsnedders> aklein: I'm unlikely to look at it any time at all soon :)
  134. # [01:57] <aklein> gsnedders: sounds like a plan :)
  135. # [01:58] <gsnedders> (currently at ~9k unread emails on whatwg :))
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  151. # [03:09] <muyyatin> What's the best way to submit a comment/bug about the Canvas HTML5 spec that isn't a 1-line description? In the inline "Submit Review Comment" part?
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  161. # [03:36] <zewt> comments on the whatwg mailing list, bug -> w3 bug tracker, whatwg component (or the list)
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  168. # [03:51] <zewt> why is every calculator since after XP garbage
  169. # [03:52] <zewt> i guess osx's is a bit less terrible than win7's, since it doesn't clear the value when you switch from "programmer" to "math"
  170. # [03:52] <zewt> converting 0xA0 from hex to decimal then dividing by 255 in win7's calc is an adventure
  171. # [03:53] <muyyatin> No clue, I generally switch out to Python for simple things like that, or Mathematica if I really need it. Haven't actually opened up the 'calculator' on this computer ever.
  172. # [03:54] <jamesr> zewt, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=0xa0+%2F+255
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  174. # [03:56] <zewt> osx's unicode mode is cute, if a bit weird in a calculator
  175. # [03:56] <zewt> xp's calc was pretty efficient, but it follows the usual software development pattern: once something is done well, the next few years of development are dedicated to ruining it
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  192. # [04:37] <zewt> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21134 there are like 10 of these bugs and am i the only one that thinks there's something fundamentally crazy going on
  193. # [04:38] * GPHemsley keeps a graphic calculator on his desk
  194. # [04:38] <GPHemsley> s/graphic/graphing/ perhaps
  195. # [04:38] <zewt> i had one in a box from highschool, i think i tossed it at some point
  196. # [04:39] <zewt> ti-85 i think, heh
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  198. # [04:39] <zewt> if i can't find software to do a better job than a piece of plastic from the mid-90s, i need to find a new line of work
  199. # [04:39] <GPHemsley> :)
  200. # [04:39] <GPHemsley> mine's a TI-83 Plus
  201. # [04:39] <GPHemsley> from circa 2003
  202. # [04:39] <GPHemsley> so, yeah
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  243. # [08:10] <Hixie> 1e3.1 => [1,3,1], [1000,1], [1, 3.1], [1259], something else ?
  244. # [08:12] <annevk> Hixie: defer to @sil
  245. # [08:12] <Hixie> heh
  246. # [08:12] <Hixie> i'll go with [1, 3.1] for now
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  250. # [08:36] <Hixie> how do you do a js switch statement case label that matches a range of characters?
  251. # [08:36] <Hixie> e.g. 'a' .. 'z' ?
  252. # [08:37] <Hixie> i guess there's just no way to do that with switch
  253. # [08:37] <Hixie> oh well
  254. # [08:40] <annevk> if/else ftw
  255. # [08:40] <annevk> if only JavaScript had elif
  256. # [08:40] <Hixie> (perl and pascal can both do the switch on a range thing)
  257. # [08:41] <Hixie> (though in perl's case it's because it's switch statement is the most ridiculous over-engineered monstrosity ever)
  258. # [08:41] <Hixie> its
  259. # [08:41] <Hixie> what's special about elif?
  260. # [08:41] <Hixie> isn't that just a different way to spell else if?
  261. # [08:42] <Hixie> ok, my algorithm is complete
  262. # [08:42] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/sorter/
  263. # [08:42] <annevk> yeah, it makes the construct more readable I think
  264. # [08:42] <Hixie> just need to turn that into prose
  265. # [08:42] <Hixie> "elif" is more readable than "else if"? o_O
  266. # [08:43] <annevk> that's a lot of code
  267. # [08:43] <Hixie> yeah
  268. # [08:43] <Hixie> it's not particularly optimised for anything
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  270. # [08:45] <Hixie> nn
  271. # [08:46] <annevk> g'night!
  272. # [08:46] <Hixie> (if you come up with anything that the algorithm doesn't handle, other than hex and two-part version numbers, let me know)
  273. # [08:46] <Hixie> (anything that actually comes up in real tables, that is)
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  320. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> jgraham: jetty servers on w3c-test.org are running again
  321. # [10:16] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@63.133.197.135) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  322. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> so those tests should be able to connect
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  327. # [10:28] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Thanks
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  330. # [10:36] * jgraham verifies that IE passes all tests Microsoft released
  331. # [10:36] <jgraham> In related news: sky blue
  332. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> heh
  333. # [10:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: Are you sure? Looks gray here.
  334. # [10:38] <jgraham> In related news: Weather in Scotland miserable
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  337. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> >>The first Proposed Recommendation for XHTML 1.0 had to be sent back to the HTML Working Group because it defined different names for the <img> element depending on whether it appears in a "Strict", "Transitional", or "Frameset" document<<
  338. # [10:43] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@148.216-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  339. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> I don't understand what "defined different names for the <img> element" means
  340. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Feb/0166.html
  341. # [10:45] <darobin> I think various XHTML products are the only ones ever to get kicked back at PR stage
  342. # [10:45] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net)
  343. # [10:45] <darobin> mention kicking stuff at PR stage and SimonSapin show up
  344. # [10:45] <darobin> it's spooky
  345. # [10:46] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Nor I, not even going all the way back to the oldest WD, through the first PR…
  346. # [10:46] <SimonSapin> Hi :)
  347. # [10:47] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Have you been renaming stuff in XHTML 1.0 after first PR?
  348. # [10:47] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: I was not born yet
  349. # [10:48] <Ms2ger`> I find that hard to believe
  350. # [10:48] * Kolombiken2 is now known as Kolombiken
  351. # [10:50] <gsnedders> Even /I/ was born then.
  352. # [10:50] <Ms2ger`> And you're what, 15 now?
  353. # [10:51] <gsnedders> Ms2ger`: I'd be 15 in I was born the year before XHTML 1.0's first PR.
  354. # [10:51] <gsnedders> s/in/if/
  355. # [10:51] <Ms2ger`> And were you?
  356. # [10:51] <gsnedders> No.
  357. # [10:52] * Joins: danja (~danny@host167-8-dynamic.8-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  358. # [10:52] <gsnedders> I was born seven years prior.
  359. # [10:52] * Ms2ger` counts
  360. # [10:52] <Ms2ger`> 22?
  361. # [10:52] <hsivonen> I wish we had the locale-sensitive HTML parser behavior-affecting prefs in one file instead of being spead out across a zillion localization repos...
  362. # [10:53] <gsnedders> Ms2ger`: 20, turn 21 in April.
  363. # [10:53] <gsnedders> 14+7 = 21.
  364. # [10:53] <Ms2ger`> Ah, prior to the RP
  365. # [10:53] <Ms2ger`> PR
  366. # [10:53] <jgraham> RIP?
  367. # [10:53] <SimonSapin> My previous sentence was not true. But I barely knew what a Working Group was when CSS 2.1 went to PR.
  368. # [10:54] <Ms2ger`> Which PR? ;)
  369. # [10:54] <SimonSapin> I think that darobin was talking about this: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2013JanMar/0056.html renaming Page Visibility
  370. # [10:54] <SimonSapin> the last one
  371. # [10:54] <darobin> SimonSapin: actually we were talking about another
  372. # [10:54] <darobin> <MikeSmith> >>The first Proposed Recommendation for XHTML 1.0 had to be sent back to the HTML Working Group because it defined different names for the <img> element depending on whether it appears in a "Strict", "Transitional", or "Frameset" document<<
  373. # [10:54] <Ms2ger`> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1063663989&count=1
  374. # [10:54] <darobin> and then you show up :)
  375. # [10:55] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@DSL212-235-42-65.bb.netvision.net.il)
  376. # [10:55] <SimonSapin> yeah, but I had nothing to do with XHTML
  377. # [10:56] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: not trolling at all in the first sentence of that ac-forum post. :-)
  378. # [10:56] <darobin> so you claim, sir
  379. # [10:56] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: I don’t know what you mean ;)
  380. # [10:57] <darobin> hsivonen: yeah, I thought the same — it's good to have trolling AC reps around
  381. # [10:57] <Ms2ger`> Sad that tobie isn't one anymore ;)
  382. # [10:58] <odinho> Yeah, who took over for fb?
  383. # [10:58] <Ms2ger`> Simon Stewart
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  385. # [10:59] <odinho> Ms2ger`: okay thanks :-)
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  389. # [11:03] <annevk> It's a good day today. I once again think I know everything I need to know to work out the fetch algorithm.
  390. # [11:04] <jgraham> Days when you are all set up for crushing disappointment are good days?
  391. # [11:09] <annevk> jgraham: I'm eager to learn
  392. # [11:09] <annevk> And if it all goes to shit it's still good as I'll meet beverloo at the bar tonight
  393. # [11:09] <darobin> the crowd goes wild
  394. # [11:09] * darobin go annevk! go annevk!
  395. # [11:10] <darobin> annevk: are you covering non-GET in fetch as well?
  396. # [11:10] <darobin> (or planning to at some point)
  397. # [11:10] <annevk> darobin: it covers all HTTP requests basically
  398. # [11:10] * Joins: [[zz]] (~q@node-1938.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net)
  399. # [11:10] <annevk> darobin: from whatever API endpoint
  400. # [11:11] <annevk> (conceptually, implementations are quite a mess still)
  401. # [11:11] <darobin> good, there are some interesting discrepancies with some methods
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  405. # [11:31] <annevk> I wish Gmail had Opera Mail's "ignore thread" feature
  406. # [11:31] <hasather> annevk: http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=47787
  407. # [11:33] <annevk> hasather: it seems that does not work for auto-archived messages?
  408. # [11:34] <othermaciej> ac-forum trolling? this I must see
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  410. # [11:36] <annevk> hasather: Yeah, so www-archive is automatically archived already. What I want I suppose is to mark any new messages in certain threads as read if the thread is of no interest to me.
  411. # [11:39] <SimonSapin> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/44133608152/the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world-is-shifting almost sounds like other discussions
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  420. # [11:54] <marcosc> Is there some way in JS to get what the browser is sending as the "Accept-Language:" (without doing gymnastics)?
  421. # [11:57] * marcosc puts on his gym outfit, and chalks up his hands, just in case
  422. # [11:58] <annevk> marcosc: you have to be more specific
  423. # [11:59] <annevk> marcosc: also, the answer is likely "no"
  424. # [11:59] <marcosc> yeah, I think I remember the answer being no
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  427. # [12:04] <darobin> marcosc: it depends on what you mean by "gymnastics"
  428. # [12:05] <darobin> you can make a request to a header echo service
  429. # [12:05] <darobin> (sorry to hear about Joey man :( I hope things won't be too bad)
  430. # [12:08] <marcosc> darobin: gymnastics = basically pulling them from the server. Or somehow coercing them out of XHR, which doesn't seem possible.
  431. # [12:08] <darobin> yeah you can't do that
  432. # [12:08] <darobin> well
  433. # [12:08] <darobin> maybe you could with NavigationController :)
  434. # [12:08] <marcosc> darobin: thanks, re: Joey. He's a tough bastard... little cancer won't slow him down :)
  435. # [12:08] <darobin> but not yet for sure
  436. # [12:08] <darobin> yeah, keep going Joey!
  437. # [12:09] <marcosc> :)
  438. # [12:09] <marcosc> darobin: is there any rough draft of NavigatorController?
  439. # [12:10] * darobin shakes fist at slightlyoff
  440. # [12:11] <darobin> slightlyoff: can you please add marcosc to the NavCon repo? Or make it public :)
  441. # [12:12] <annevk> slightlyoff is off
  442. # [12:13] <annevk> try again in seven days
  443. # [12:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I'd appreciate your review of https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Localizations_and_character_encodings
  444. # [12:21] * annevk looks
  445. # [12:22] <annevk> hsivonen: it should establish context at the beginning a bit clearer, since some might mistakenly think this applies to localization files
  446. # [12:22] <annevk> hsivonen: well it does, but the title does not
  447. # [12:26] <hsivonen> annevk: what title would you suggest?
  448. # [12:26] <annevk> sorry, I tried to think of something better but couldn't
  449. # [12:27] <annevk> hsivonen: encoding names are not consistently cased
  450. # [12:27] <annevk> hsivonen: Encoding Standard is not linked
  451. # [12:27] <annevk> hsivonen: other than that looks good to me
  452. # [12:28] <hsivonen> annevk: reload for linkification
  453. # [12:28] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  454. # [12:30] <hsivonen> annevk: made casing Gecko-canonical
  455. # [12:30] <annevk> hsivonen: k, I wonder if we should introduce "display name" as a property of encodings that does the non-lowercase thing
  456. # [12:30] <annevk> (in the standard)
  457. # [12:31] <annevk> oh well, maybe some day
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  462. # [12:53] <SimonSapin> Is U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN (SHY) the only character that suggests line breaks?
  463. # [12:59] <annevk> there's also a zero-width space of sorts
  464. # [12:59] <annevk> and prolly others, because you know, Unicode
  465. # [13:03] <annevk> SimonSapin: http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr14/ (although I believe people have issues with this document)
  466. # [13:03] <annevk> SimonSapin: (but my recollection is from 3-7 years ago so that may have changed)
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The end :)