/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-03-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 04 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:32] <Yuhong> Well, IE9 finally supports XHTML, and IE8 is finally becoming obsolete.
  10. # [00:32] <Yuhong> The lack of XHTML support in IE8 is far from the only problem that make it a boat anchor.
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  15. # [01:06] <zewt> (can't tell if joking)
  16. # [01:07] <Philip`> (Depends if he meant IE8 was being a boat anchor, or XHTML was being a boat anchor)
  17. # [01:08] <Philip`> (I suggest throwing them both off a boat and seeing which sinks fastest)
  18. # [01:31] <zewt> (can't tell if joking about lack of XHTML actually being a problem that needed to be solved)
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  38. # [02:37] <Yuhong> IE8 being a boat anchor. It for example also do not support much of DOM level 2, which is why jQuery 2.0 won't support it.
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  85. # [07:32] <roc> on the same day WaSP declares "our work here is done", we have a Chrome ad from Disney saying "a Web experience built for Chrome"
  86. # [07:34] <tantek> roc: Wasp has been fairly inactive for a while
  87. # [07:34] <tantek> Declaring a boom does not deny the fact that you went out with a whimper.
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  250. # [11:40] <hsivonen> annevk: is there value other than encoding table and test case savings in dropping single-byte encodings whose lower half is ASCII and upper half has no overlap with ASCII?
  251. # [11:41] <annevk> hsivonen: very limited value
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  253. # [11:42] <hsivonen> hmm. Warner now allows HD movies in iTunes on Mac.
  254. # [11:42] <annevk> hsivonen: we can add ibm850 back I suppose
  255. # [11:43] <hsivonen> annevk: what other single-byte encodings did we drop? random Mac stuff?
  256. # [11:43] <hsivonen> http://www.voddler.com/en/movie/info/2798385737197326461/skyfall/
  257. # [11:44] <annevk> hsivonen: I haven't kept track
  258. # [11:44] <hsivonen> Voddler advertises Skyfall available for HTML5 streaming
  259. # [11:44] <annevk> hsivonen: or was not cc'd, either way
  260. # [11:44] <hsivonen> I wonder what HTML5 streaming means
  261. # [11:44] <hsivonen> can't be EME at this point in time
  262. # [11:44] <odinho> I called what I did HTML5 streaming, that was Ogg Theora + Vorbis. :-)
  263. # [11:45] <hsivonen> their payment service is down, so I couldn't pay 3.70 euros to check
  264. # [11:46] <hsivonen> annevk: does IE support IBM850? (I'm guessing yes, but didn't launch a VM to check)
  265. # [11:46] <gsnedders> That's like 3/4rds the cost of it in Norway. :(
  266. # [11:48] <annevk> hsivonen: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_Encodings suggests it does
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  270. # [11:53] <annevk> hsivonen: I'm not really sure what the right approach here is. Should we add an encoding per report we get?
  271. # [11:53] <annevk> hsivonen: given one report it's prolly likely other pages are affected and definitely other users.
  272. # [11:54] <annevk> hsivonen: then the next question is what set of labels we add. The same as IE or what we had before?
  273. # [11:54] * annevk does not like encodings
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  275. # [11:55] <gsnedders> You chose to work on it!
  276. # [11:55] <annevk> gsnedders: yes, to make it a solved problem
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  278. # [11:58] <mounir> annevk: you don't like encodings but you have two huge books on that subject on your desk... ;)
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  283. # [12:02] <annevk> Yeah, they'll be moving to the public bookshelf soon. I haven't opened them in a while now...
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  285. # [12:03] <annevk> Although I guess I should ask MikeSmith about the CJKV one as technically it's from Keio...
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  290. # [12:08] <hsivonen> annevk: the stuff we only supported with uninteroperable labels might not be worth putting back
  291. # [12:09] <hsivonen> annevk: single-byte encodings that IE supports with sane labels *might* be worth putting back
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  293. # [12:10] <hsivonen> I'm really quite surprised that someone uses the old DOS Western European encoding on the Web
  294. # [12:10] <annevk> hsivonen: on a site with login, no less
  295. # [12:11] <annevk> hsivonen: with a copyright statement amended for 2012
  296. # [12:11] <darobin> I'm not
  297. # [12:11] <annevk> good for you
  298. # [12:11] <darobin> plenty of people have really old legacy systems, and those tend to spill over
  299. # [12:12] <darobin> "we have this really old machine that handles our inventory, we've managed to put an FTP server in front of its daily exports, can you take that and put it on the web" is a relatively common request
  300. # [12:13] <darobin> what happens with the encodings there then really depends on the developer... which means you see horrors
  301. # [12:14] * darobin still remembers "it does strange things when our Chinese customers add new entries imported into our system" bug reports
  302. # [12:15] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  303. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: that CJKV book didn't belong to Keio, I don't think. It think it belonged personally to Felix Sasaki, and he gave it to me when he left W3C and moved back to Germany. So feel free to do whatever you want with it.
  304. # [12:16] <annevk> MikeSmith: my idea was to put it in Mozilla's community area
  305. # [12:17] <jgraham> Not to set fire to it?
  306. # [12:17] <annevk> MikeSmith: we have a public bookshelf there, but since there's no security someone might take it (but then hopefully they'll read it)
  307. # [12:17] <jgraham> Using the medieval adage "a problem enflamed is a problem solved"?
  308. # [12:18] <hsivonen> darobin: apparently wind energy is so old that it's old enough to have a DOS-era legacy system
  309. # [12:18] <annevk> jgraham: there's electronic copies :-(
  310. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah if you're not needing it yourself any more, seems like it'd be good to put it out there for others to if. If somebody's so keen on it to take it home, that wouldn't be a tragedy
  311. # [12:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: another person entangled in legacy encodings not a tragedy?
  312. # [12:22] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
  313. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> heh
  314. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> I just had to throw away at least 50 books at Keio becausethe office is going to be remodeled and we don't have room for them. I wish somebody had cared enough about any of them to already have walked off with them.
  315. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> some of them were pretty old, though. Like, a guide to the Korn shell.
  316. # [12:25] <annevk> next time mail them to this office, seems we have some space left
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  325. # [13:00] <annevk> what's the negation of the first two bullet points under 1. in http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/CR-cors-20130129/#cross-origin-request-with-preflight-0
  326. # [13:00] <annevk> boolean logic :(
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  328. # [13:03] <annevk> NOT(true OR true) == false AND false
  329. # [13:03] <jgraham> annevk: Can't really tell where the brackets are in those sentences anyway
  330. # [13:04] <annevk> but this is NOT(true OR true AND true) so false AND false OR false
  331. # [13:04] <jgraham> annevk: More brackets, please
  332. # [13:04] <annevk> jgraham: why not?
  333. # [13:05] <jgraham> Is it X OR (Y AND Z) or (X OR Y) AND Z
  334. # [13:05] <annevk> AND has precedence no?
  335. # [13:05] <Ms2ger> Not if you want to be clear :)
  336. # [13:05] <annevk> I'm open to rewriting this even more though
  337. # [13:06] * annevk wonders how
  338. # [13:06] <jgraham> In English? It's unclear. In other cases there might be rules
  339. # [13:06] <annevk> If ...
  340. # [13:06] <annevk> * there's no method cache match
  341. # [13:06] <annevk> * it's no simple method or the force preflight flag is set
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  343. # [13:07] <jgraham> !(X OR (Y AND Z)) = !X & !(Y AND Z) = !X & (!Y OR !Z)
  344. # [13:07] <jgraham> Which is what you said
  345. # [13:07] * Parts: panev (~spirit@92.247.13.234)
  346. # [13:07] <annevk> * for every header in request headers there is no cache match and the field name is not a simple header
  347. # [13:07] <annevk> Then ... preflight time
  348. # [13:08] <annevk> jgraham: does what I just wrote work?
  349. # [13:08] <annevk> (but it's wrong :-(, it only has to fail for one header)
  350. # [13:09] <jgraham> I'll go with no then :)
  351. # [13:09] <annevk> There's at least one header in request headers for which there is no cache match and which is not a simple header
  352. # [13:09] <jgraham> But the style is better
  353. # [13:09] <annevk> jgraham: try again
  354. # [13:09] <jgraham> (lunch)
  355. # [13:09] <annevk> so lame
  356. # [13:09] <annevk> and late for Sweden
  357. # [13:10] <gsnedders> It's jgraham.
  358. # [13:10] <gsnedders> It's early for him.
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  361. # [13:17] <annevk> Great success: http://www.iwanttouse.com/#apng,download
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  371. # [13:57] <jgraham> Using no specific features
  372. # [13:57] <jgraham> reaches 95.43% of web users
  373. # [13:57] * jgraham wonders what the other 4.57% are doing
  374. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> Amaya
  375. # [13:58] <jgraham> darobin is almost 5% of web traffic?
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  381. # [14:13] <hsivonen> jgraham: did you figure out what that meant?
  382. # [14:14] <hsivonen> some "other" browser unspecific matter?
  383. # [14:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: I suspect it means that 4.57% of users are using browsers that aren't covered by caniuse.com data
  384. # [14:14] <jgraham> Although that seems *very* high
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  387. # [14:31] <darobin> maybe their UA data includes bots
  388. # [14:31] <darobin> (by mistake)
  389. # [14:31] <jgraham> Seems to be from statcounter
  390. # [14:32] <jgraham> Can't really tell how one would get anything useful out of that
  391. # [14:38] <annevk> jgraham: oh it says that now? I had it at 0
  392. # [14:38] <gsnedders> Is that not ~% of "other" on statcounter?
  393. # [14:39] <jgraham> http://caniuse.com/usage_table.php
  394. # [14:39] <jgraham> Still doesn't add up to 100%
  395. # [14:40] * Quits: vincent_ (~woops@129.175.204.73) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  396. # [14:51] <SimonSapin> jgraham: did you count "Browsers not included on site" ?
  397. # [14:53] <jgraham> Yes
  398. # [14:53] <SimonSapin> I get 99.925, could be rounding errors
  399. # [14:53] <jgraham> 0.865 + 3.38 + 95.68 = 99.925
  400. # [14:54] <jgraham> Could be if the top number is only accurate to +- 0.005, I suppose
  401. # [14:55] <SimonSapin> or if each of these three values is a sum of rounded values, errors accumulate
  402. # [14:56] <gsnedders> Yay floats!
  403. # [14:58] <jgraham> Not floats at all
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  405. # [14:58] <jgraham> Just propogation of errors
  406. # [14:59] <jgraham> There are 65 values that are +/- 0.0005 and 12 values that are apparently +/- 0.05
  407. # [14:59] <jgraham> er 0.005
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  409. # [15:01] <jgraham> (and iirc you can just add in quadrature)
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  413. # [15:11] <annevk> Which task source does WebSocket use? The protocol that is?
  414. # [15:13] <jgraham> "The task source for all tasks queued in this section is the WebSocket task source."
  415. # [15:17] <annevk> ta
  416. # [15:17] <annevk> So is the networking task source the exclusive domain of "fetch"?
  417. # [15:17] <annevk> Sounds like we should have named it the fetch task source...
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  419. # [15:18] <zewt> does it even do anything, except to say "you don't have to guarantee task ordering with anything else"?
  420. # [15:19] <annevk> I think that's the main purpose. Which may mean XMLHttpRequest has a bug as it does not use the networking task source but should probably piggyback on that somehow...
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  423. # [15:26] <annevk> My main problem at the moment is that I don't really have a good interface for return this asynchronously... HTML has this text about queuing tasks, but that does not work for a number of cases...
  424. # [15:26] <hsivonen> I wonder if Google has done browser stats internally across all sites that use Google Analytics
  425. # [15:26] <annevk> Namely: upload progress events, preflight request done. Maybe something else?
  426. # [15:27] <annevk> Did we decide on when upload progress events are done? Is it when you get an ACK from the server?
  427. # [15:27] <annevk> Is that even how TCP/IP works?
  428. # [15:27] <zewt> annevk: are you basically looking for a way to write callbacks in a spec?
  429. # [15:28] <gsnedders> annevk: It's a violation of layering, but yes, it's the only way to do it.
  430. # [15:28] <annevk> zewt: kind of
  431. # [15:28] <zewt> gsnedders: no, there are different approaches
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  433. # [15:28] <zewt> well
  434. # [15:28] <annevk> zewt: except that if some flag is set there are no callbacks and it becomes a return value
  435. # [15:28] <zewt> i guess that's basically what it amounts to either way i'm thinking of
  436. # [15:29] <zewt> typically i look at the available buffer space on the socket, and figure out when it's emptied past what I want (but that's basically going to follow ACKs too)
  437. # [15:29] <annevk> gsnedders: we can also wait for a full HTTP response which may be what Gecko is doing
  438. # [15:29] <annevk> gsnedders: and depending on the status code dispatch either load or error or some such
  439. # [15:29] <zewt> annevk: that sounds like it breaks the point of upload progress events entirely
  440. # [15:30] <zewt> i mean, if you wait for the response, you're not firing upload progress *during the upload* at all, and that's the whole point ... right?
  441. # [15:30] <gsnedders> annevk: I think we shouldn't define it. Not really that nice to depend on things the TCP layer in the OS does…
  442. # [15:30] <annevk> zewt: mainly worrying about the final set of events
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  444. # [15:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: It would be astonishing if they didn't
  445. # [15:30] <gsnedders> annevk: Like, I think when you dispatch them during upload cannot be practically defined in such a way it can be implemented on all OSes.
  446. # [15:31] <annevk> gsnedders: we tried that, didn't work
  447. # [15:31] <zewt> i don't think it makes sense to wait any longer than the 200 OK, and maybe not even that long
  448. # [15:31] <annevk> zewt: in practice there's not going to be much difference between that and the full set of headers as I understand it, but sure
  449. # [15:31] <zewt> (if the server has a long delay while it figures out the answer to your upload, seems like upload should still be considered finished right away)
  450. # [15:32] <annevk> None of this is really helping me unfortunately :-(
  451. # [15:32] <gsnedders> Right, I think we have to have a minimum set of number to send (like at completion), but can send more?
  452. # [15:32] <gsnedders> Or annevk, that not work?
  453. # [15:32] <zewt> but "wait for a full HTTP response" sounds very wrong (then you're waiting for the response body, too)
  454. # [15:32] <annevk> zewt: oh sorry, not for the body, just long enough to see if you're gonna redirect
  455. # [15:33] <zewt> annevk: lacking more specific questions I can only throw darts :P
  456. # [15:33] <annevk> Maybe I should put my sketch up somewhere
  457. # [15:34] <annevk> http://html5.org/temp/fetch.html
  458. # [15:34] <zewt> also it might help to know what the "becomes a return value" case is about (sounds like sync/async, but my first impression would be to do both with callbacks)
  459. # [15:34] <annevk> It hasn't run through Anolis yet so it's quite ugly
  460. # [15:35] <annevk> Basically "fetch" is the entry point, which might invoke some other algorithms asynchronously (or synchronously if the synchronous flag is set)
  461. # [15:35] <zewt> i mean, if you want a synchronous caller to fetch to be able to get the same info about what's happening (callbacks) as an async one
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  466. # [15:36] <annevk> I guess I can keep the model where the other algorithms simply return the response to "fetch" which returns it in the end. And they also all queue tasks on the networking task source...
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  468. # [15:37] <annevk> The latter model would be used by asynchronous invokers, the other model by synchronous...
  469. # [15:39] <zewt> so, "notify caller that preflight succeeded..." is a callbacky case
  470. # [15:39] <annevk> It still leaves some questions. E.g. how to queue tasks if we don't know yet it'll be a redirect.
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  473. # [15:40] <zewt> could that be simply "invoke *preflight succeeded callback*, if set", make that an optional parameter to set, then let the caller sort out what to do with it (eg. queueing a task if it's async)
  474. # [15:41] <zewt> er, optional parameter to fetch (propagated down to this algorithm)
  475. # [15:43] <annevk> Actually, if we do this right we don't need that callback I think.
  476. # [15:43] <zewt> then since it's the caller queueing any tasks, fetch doesn't have to care (eg. if websocket or XHR use a different task source)
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  478. # [15:44] <zewt> are you thinking of having progress events be fired by fetch?
  479. # [15:44] <annevk> XHR checks for "preflight complete" but "fetch" can handle that logic perfectly as it knows what is a preflight and what is not
  480. # [15:44] <zewt> (iirc they're not very uniform across apis...)
  481. # [15:44] <annevk> zewt: not the actual firing, but queueing tasks that make them possible
  482. # [15:45] <zewt> that's what this callback is, right?
  483. # [15:45] <zewt> (i don't care particularly about this callback, it's just the first callback i saw)
  484. # [15:45] <annevk> This callback is kinda pointless. It just indicates that the upload events start when the body is being transmitted, which will always be after the preflight anyway...
  485. # [15:46] <annevk> So I think I could remove that from XHR entirely and it would in effect say the same thing...
  486. # [15:47] <zewt> afk a bit
  487. # [15:47] <annevk> HTML has these callbacks for fetch today: tasks queued while receiving the entity body for incremental display of images. The final task at the end of fetch.
  488. # [15:49] <annevk> For XHR I need upload. I also want to clarify somehow that networking tasks should start when we know it's not a redirect. So basically when the entity body is being transferred...
  489. # [15:50] <annevk> But maybe we need more granularity for certain APIs...
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  491. # [15:51] <annevk> I need Hixie
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  502. # [16:23] <annevk> marcosc: you're missing "HTTP" in hosted app
  503. # [16:23] <marcosc> annevk: true
  504. # [16:23] <marcosc> Added, thanks!
  505. # [16:23] <annevk> marcosc: though calilng a packaged app "web" seems like a stretch
  506. # [16:23] <marcosc> heh
  507. # [16:23] <marcosc> also true
  508. # [16:23] <marcosc> changed it to packaged app
  509. # [16:24] <marcosc> hosted web app is ok
  510. # [16:24] <marcosc> it still runs off http
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  521. # [16:41] <darobin> Hixie: do you mind sharing the preprocessor for the stuff that's showing up under http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#parsing-the-sort-key step 5.2?
  522. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> Heh, neat
  523. # [16:44] <darobin> yeah, it's pretty neat
  524. # [16:44] <Ms2ger> And if it breaks you, all the better ;)
  525. # [16:45] <darobin> my sweet, sweet and belovèd Ms2ger. :-*
  526. # [16:46] <zewt> gaaah
  527. # [16:46] <zewt> i click the order search box on amazon, start typing, and I end up with my search text randomly inserted in the middle of "Title, Department, Recipient"
  528. # [16:46] <zewt> dear amazon: use @placeholder, you idiots
  529. # [16:48] <darobin> I get the impression that adding more powerful form stuff has only encouraged developers to be more stupid in how they handle forms
  530. # [16:49] <zewt> seems like a few people use @placeholder, and everyone else goes "good idea!! i can do that in javascript!"
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  535. # [16:54] <darobin> yeah
  536. # [16:54] <darobin> the Twitter search form helpfully voids itself on load
  537. # [16:54] <darobin> it's always great when you type faster than it loads
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  539. # [16:54] <darobin> which is, well, rather easy
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  541. # [16:57] <zewt> symptoms of people testing on local networks
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  560. # [17:33] <annevk> ooh, I was already wondering what that was when reading the diff
  561. # [17:33] <annevk> so that's post-processed
  562. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> yeah
  563. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> seems like something that could be re-purposed in other specs
  564. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> fetch?
  565. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> the tool I mean
  566. # [17:40] <annevk> I was talking about Hixie's case-switch thingie
  567. # [17:40] <annevk> for once, although I'd love to talk about Fetch more :p
  568. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> I meant since you've just started writing up Fetch, if you have state-machine algorithms in there, you could write them using this case-switch shorthand, then have the tool make it into words for you
  569. # [17:43] <annevk> oh sorry, not that much case-switch going on right now
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  571. # [17:43] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  574. # [17:44] * MikeSmith wishes Mark would write all his messages from his iPhone instead because those are a lot easier to read
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  579. # [17:55] <annevk> So XHR dispatches loadstart, then readystatechange readystatechange and then progress events start?
  580. # [17:55] <annevk> that's prolly roughly what should be happening
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  582. # [17:57] <annevk> zewt: gsnedders: it seems for upload progress events we resolved to fire loadend when the outgoing buffer is empty
  583. # [17:57] <annevk> zewt: gsnedders: and not wait for ACK or some kind of HTTP response
  584. # [17:58] <annevk> zewt: gsnedders: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012JanMar/0749.html
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  639. # [19:21] <annevk> Hixie: reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Mar/0024.html would be great, ta
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  643. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Actually, I've pushed back on single-line comments in CSS until someone can demonstrate a low chance of breakage, particularly in minified stylesheets.
  644. # [19:27] <annevk> only allow them when a line starts with whitespace followed by // ?
  645. # [19:28] <annevk> but maybe that's not good enough for people
  646. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> Nah, people want them at the end of a line, after a property.
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  656. # [19:39] <GPHemsley> I want the ability to comment properties out without having to go to the beginning and end of a file.
  657. # [19:39] <GPHemsley> s/file/line/
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  659. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> That's easy - just put any invalid property-name char at the beginning of the line.
  660. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> If you want, use //
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  663. # [19:41] <GPHemsley> Yeah, I was thinking that might work
  664. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> That "comments it out" by invalidating the declaration, which causes the parser to swallow and ignore the entire declaration but no more.
  665. # [19:41] <GPHemsley> hmm... that could even work for inline styles, huh?
  666. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  667. # [19:41] <GPHemsley> interesting
  668. # [19:42] <GPHemsley> I wonder if that should be documented/reminded somewhere?
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  670. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> The annoying part is that if you want to put a comment *after* a declaration, using // will eat the *next* declaration instead.
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  672. # [19:42] <GPHemsley> right
  673. # [19:43] <GPHemsley> what if you end your comment in a semicolon?
  674. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> That'll work.
  675. # [19:43] <GPHemsley> hmm
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  677. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> That doesn't help with comments between blocks, though. There you'd need to end the comment with a {}, I think.
  678. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> Though... maybe not. Let me test.
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  680. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> No, you definitely need a {}, because the parser thinks it's in the selector for a style rule.
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  682. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> So, as long as you're commenting inside of a block, you can do "// <comment here>;" and it'll work.
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  684. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> Outside of a block, just use block comments.
  685. # [19:46] <GPHemsley> that sounds fair
  686. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> That might actually be useful to document.
  687. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> There's a thread waiting on some conclusions about this - I'll bring it up there.
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  689. # [19:47] <GPHemsley> Blocks require block comments. That's easy to rememeber.
  690. # [19:47] <GPHemsley> Perhaps even explicitly reserve the '//' property for comments?
  691. # [19:47] <GPHemsley> (IDK how that works.)
  692. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Properties already can't be named // anyway - they're restricted to idents.
  693. # [19:48] <GPHemsley> Hmm... by that logic, then, you could also use #, right?
  694. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  695. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Anything and everything that's not a valid property name.
  696. # [19:48] <GPHemsley> right
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  741. # [21:11] <Hixie> any blog admins around?
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  744. # [21:15] <JonathanNeal> i have a blog
  745. # [21:16] <Hixie> i meant the whatwg blog
  746. # [21:16] <Hixie> sorry :-)
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  755. # [21:23] <jgraham> I have an admin (but not for the WHATWG blog)
  756. # [21:24] <jgraham> (I think)
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  771. # [21:38] <GPHemsley> a wiki could be used as a blog... does that count? ;)
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  787. # [22:04] <zewt> line comments that don't actually work anywhere sound unpleasant
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  823. # [23:02] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Hej, at some point when you have a moment it would be awesome if you could look and see if there are any serverside errors that look like they correspond to what Ken's seeing?
  824. # [23:03] <jgraham> Hmm, that wasn't actually a question
  825. # [23:03] <jgraham> s/\?/./ perhaps
  826. # [23:03] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  827. # [23:04] <jgraham> It is pretty non-obvious to me why it would work for me and for you (most of the time) but never for him, unless it is something on his local network
  828. # [23:04] <jgraham> But still
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  837. # [23:25] <annevk> Hixie: you around?
  838. # [23:26] <annevk> Hixie: my first question was about <img> does fetch, then another <img> does a fetch, both queue network tasks, how do you know which task is for which image?
  839. # [23:27] <Hixie> why would you not know?
  840. # [23:27] <Hixie> that's like saying you put a ball on the ground, i put a ball on the ground, how do you know which ball was put down by whom
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  846. # [23:33] <annevk> Hixie: there's nothing in the task queue design that tells you these things
  847. # [23:34] <zewt> annevk: "the buffer is empty" implies the ACK is received, by definition
  848. # [23:35] <annevk> Hixie: as for tasks for uploading, don't you need to signify from the network layer that something is happening and then have the API layer expose that?
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  851. # [23:42] <annevk> zewt: k
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  858. # [23:54] <Yuhong> Ah, the WaSP.
  859. # [23:54] <Yuhong> That is the one that petitioned Netscape to cancel Mariner, leaving Netscape nothing to compete in time for IE5.
  860. # [23:55] <Yuhong> Which ended up increasing the use of document.all.
  861. # [23:55] <Yuhong> To the point other browsers had to implement it!
  862. # [23:57] <Yuhong> And yea, Mariner was going to implement getElementById too.
  863. # [23:57] <tantek> but not CSS
  864. # [23:57] <tantek> which was just a wee bit more important than getElementById
  865. # [23:58] <Yuhong> Netscape 4 implemented CSS but poorly, Netscape 5 was going to implement CSS better.
  866. # [23:58] <tantek> "poorly" is being generous
  867. # [23:58] <tantek> "better" than "poorly" was nowhere near good enough
  868. # [23:58] <tantek> (in comparison to what everybody else was coding support for)
  869. # Session Close: Tue Mar 05 00:00:00 2013

The end :)