/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-03-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 08 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:07] <esprehn> gotta love manual memory management
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  16. # [00:30] <jamesr> who owns https://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-ED ?
  17. # [00:30] <jamesr> at the bottom it has this: background-image: url(http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/logo-ED);
  18. # [00:30] <jamesr> which produces mixed content if a spec referencing that stylesheet is loaded over https
  19. # [00:31] <jamesr> the logo is served over https
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  31. # [01:02] <zewt> man, gmail is totally broken right now
  32. # [01:02] <zewt> every time i click a reply box, it scrolls up to the top of the mail i'm replying to
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  69. # [01:33] <zewt> heh StreamBuilder: If there is enough data available to satisfy the amount requested in the read, return the amount specified. The data should be returned in the order the data was appended.
  70. # [01:33] <zewt> should :(
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  85. # [01:57] <Garbee> zewt, gmail is working fine for me.
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  87. # [02:01] <zewt> (fyi, not everyone sees the same gmail at the same time)
  88. # [02:02] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  89. # [02:02] <Garbee> Yea, but are you sure it isn't a plugin messing with it?
  90. # [02:03] <zewt> i was seeing it at work in chrome, and now at home in firefox; just smells like i've been stuck in a crappy bucket and I just have to wait for it to wear off
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  93. # [02:07] <Garbee_> yea, hopefully it will go away in a little bit.
  94. # [02:08] <Garbee_> I'm stuck in Freenode hell right now myself. Maybe when I get online in the morning it will be fixed.
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  103. # [02:23] <jamesr> is the CSS 'display' property defined as animatible currently? where is it defined (or at least its animatibility)? and how the heck do you spell that word?
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  105. # [02:25] <zewt> no idea about the answer, except that it wouldn't seem to make sense (animate from inline to block?)
  106. # [02:27] <jamesr> well presumably it'd animate like any other discrete thing
  107. # [02:27] <jamesr> jump from one value to the other at some point
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  109. # [02:27] <zewt> but it'd have to reflow, which means in theory every block on the page might have to animate somehow
  110. # [02:28] <jamesr> that's true of almost any property that can be targetted by an animation
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  113. # [02:29] <zewt> not most properties i've animated, at least (topp/left in pos: absolute, opacity, transforms, etc)
  114. # [02:29] <jamesr> if you animate something to the side such that it causes a vertical scrollbar it'll reflow the world
  115. # [02:30] <jamesr> and that just happens suddenly at some point in the animation
  116. # [02:30] <zewt> sure, but that just reflows when you cross the boundary
  117. # [02:30] <jamesr> and this would reflow whenever the 'display' value changes to a new thing
  118. # [02:30] <zewt> if you're animating from block to inline, there's some kind of continuous change happening to everything affected by it
  119. # [02:31] <jamesr> no there isn't. look, if you don't know the answer feel free to just say you don't know
  120. # [02:31] <zewt> i guess i can't picture what "50% block 50% inline" would mean, visually
  121. # [02:31] <zewt> wow, no need to be a dick
  122. # [02:31] <jamesr> nothing wrong with that. i don't know where it is either
  123. # [02:31] <zewt> in case you didn't read, the very first thing I said is that I don't know the answer
  124. # [02:32] <zewt> ending conversation, too irritated
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  127. # [02:36] <zewt> (sorry, overreacted a bit, but conversing about a question is an ordinary thing on irc)
  128. # [02:37] <astearns> jamesr: I think I can say that the animatability of 'display' is not currently defined anywhere. It's not defined in any of the places I'd expect the definition to be, anyway
  129. # [02:37] <jamesr> astearns, do you know where the 'display' property itself is defined?
  130. # [02:38] <tantek> CSS 2.1
  131. # [02:38] <jamesr> ah, appendix F
  132. # [02:38] <astearns> jamesr: in CSS2.1 and the new level 3 Display module http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display-3/
  133. # [02:39] <astearns> but (TabAtkins) the new module says to look to the "individual properties" to see what's animatable, then those properties don't say if they are
  134. # [02:39] <jamesr> css transitions has an 'Animatable' section on each property, for instance
  135. # [02:40] <jamesr> so looks like the answer is css-display-3 needs to add this row to its tables of property definitions
  136. # [02:40] <astearns> yep
  137. # [02:40] <jamesr> it has "Animatable: see individual properties" for the "display" shorthand itself
  138. # [02:40] <jamesr> it'll get there, i suppose
  139. # [02:41] <astearns> I expect display-box would not be animatable. Not sure about the rest
  140. # [02:42] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  141. # [02:47] <JonathanNeal> Where is the part of the spec that talks about how to validate an element name or a classname?
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  150. # [03:21] <esprehn> zewt: I thought we weren't doing StreamBuilder yet
  151. # [03:22] <esprehn> or rather, that we were going to replace it with new Stream() like BlobBuilder I'd hope
  152. # [03:23] <zewt> esprehn: no idea; all I know about Streams is reading the spec
  153. # [03:23] <esprehn> ah
  154. # [03:23] <zewt> BlobBuilder is dead (or legacy), right? replace by new Blob()
  155. # [03:23] <zewt> replaced
  156. # [03:24] <zewt> (however it's constructed I wouldn't expect it to affect those issues, though)
  157. # [03:24] <zewt> Steam, I mean
  158. # [03:25] <zewt> ... Stream (accursed laptop)
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  161. # [03:30] <moo-_-> zewt: yes
  162. # [03:30] <moo-_-> dead like a doornail
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  165. # [03:33] <zewt> doing "new Stream" would want to be a subclass of Stream, since you wouldn't want system-provided Streams to also have the StreamBuilder API, but other than that, makes sense
  166. # [03:33] <zewt> (though less of a win, since you still end up with two classes)
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  177. # [04:15] <esprehn> zewt: new WhateverSystemStream I guess, or Stream.create(...) might be okay. The builder stuff is full of sadness
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  184. # [04:31] <zewt> esprehn: more concerned about the brittle interop smell of script-sourced streams as a concept
  185. # [04:32] <zewt> sounds like something that's tempting and sounds useful but might bite everyone in the ass badly long-term
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  222. # [07:55] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: did you write your js css parser using a tool, or just straight up in js?
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  298. # [10:59] <JonathanNeal> any string parsers up?
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  305. # [11:15] <SimonSapin> JonathanNeal: not sure what you mean by string parser, but I’m pretty sure this one https://github.com/tabatkins/css-parser is written manually based on the algorithms in the spec
  306. # [11:16] <SimonSapin> IIRC it’s even a goal to be very close to the spec
  307. # [11:16] <JonathanNeal> Trying to parse "{0 {1 {2 {3} 2} 1} 0} {0 {1 {2 {3} 2} 1} 0}" into a hierarchy.
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  309. # [11:18] <SimonSapin> JonathanNeal: if you’re okay with CSS tokens I suppose you could use css-parser and repeatedly call consumeAPrimitive()
  310. # [11:20] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Hmm, are you actually trying to parse CSS or some custom thing?
  311. # [11:20] <SimonSapin> but writing recursive decent parsers for simple languages is not too hard
  312. # [11:21] <JonathanNeal> some custom thing :) plus i've always wanted to better understand parsers.
  313. # [11:22] <jgraham> Well that specific thing doesn't look too hard
  314. # [11:24] <jgraham> I mean there are only 3 tokens and no need for lookahead
  315. # [11:27] <zcorpan> i don't understand why this fails. :-( http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebSockets/tests/submissions/Opera/interfaces/WebSocket/close/005.html i don't spot any difference from the old test which passes
  316. # [11:29] <jgraham> zcorpan: Which assert fails?
  317. # [11:29] <zcorpan> the first in the onclose hanlder
  318. # [11:30] <JonathanNeal> jgraham: like this? http://codepen.io/jonneal/pen/hHIzF
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  320. # [11:32] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, the readyState one?
  321. # [11:32] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: yes
  322. # [11:32] <Ms2ger> Passes on Fx, it seems
  323. # [11:33] <zcorpan> huh, fails for me in firefox
  324. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> But I get assert_equals: expected 3 but got 0
  325. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> So, passes is a big word :)
  326. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> And, uh, timeouts :/
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  328. # [11:35] <zcorpan> yeah, i guess the timeout can be reduced a lot
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  332. # [11:40] <zcorpan> ah! s/step/step_func/ makes it pass
  333. # [11:40] <zcorpan> so subtle
  334. # [11:40] <jgraham> Horray for weak typing?
  335. # [11:42] <jgraham> (if you can think of any way I can make it easier to avoid that error please say)
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  337. # [11:48] <zcorpan> i guess i would have noticed it sooner if i stepped through the script in a debugger
  338. # [11:49] <zcorpan> or make step() return a function that gives a warning somewhere
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  340. # [11:56] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  341. # [11:57] <zcorpan> jgraham: i'll implement the warning thing
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  343. # [12:00] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-html-longdesc-20130312/
  344. # [12:01] <annevk> I always thought it was McCathieNeville
  345. # [12:01] <annevk> one l
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  347. # [12:03] <SteveF> annevk: I am now retiring my accessibility work is done!
  348. # [12:04] <annevk> no man, need longdesc for <main>
  349. # [12:05] <SteveF> oops yeah back to work...
  350. # [12:05] <SteveF> am secretly working on longdesc for longdesc but its a secret
  351. # [12:06] <annevk> I heard rumors about <img extralongdesc=""> for people that are beyond blind
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  353. # [12:07] <SteveF> am no longdesc lover, but am pleased the draft has been published so I don't have to think about it anymore
  354. # [12:08] <SteveF> though I am a lover and do have a long desk
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  359. # [12:10] <zcorpan> jgraham: hmm. step() can throw, which makes it a bit hard to make it return a warning function
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  361. # [12:11] <SteveF> photo of my long desk https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/309984608001343488
  362. # [12:11] <zcorpan> that is kinda a showstopper. can't think of a way around it
  363. # [12:12] * zcorpan drop it
  364. # [12:12] <zcorpan> +s
  365. # [12:13] <marcosc> annevk: in XHR, when an event is fired on "onerror", it passes a ProgressEvent. I'm not clear how one gets at the actual "error"? I was expecting some kind of error object to be available.
  366. # [12:14] <annevk> marcosc: there's no such thing
  367. # [12:15] <marcosc> annevk: sure, but I was kinda hoping for a http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-domexception-network_err
  368. # [12:16] <annevk> marcosc: it's equivalent
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  370. # [12:16] <annevk> error event is the async version of that
  371. # [12:17] <marcosc> ok, what I was after was the details of why it failed. I wanted to display those details or try to do something with them.
  372. # [12:17] <annevk> right, there's no such thing
  373. # [12:18] <marcosc> Maybe something for XHR level 3? :)
  374. # [12:18] <zcorpan> marcosc: exposing to web content why a network request failed is generally considered a security issue
  375. # [12:18] <annevk> Fetch exposes 1) end-user abort, 2) network error, 3) redirect (sometimes), 4) everything else
  376. # [12:19] <annevk> marcosc: there's no levels anymore
  377. # [12:19] <annevk> marcosc: and what zcorpan said
  378. # [12:19] <marcosc> ok, makes sense. Just wanted to check the rationale
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  383. # [12:26] <zcorpan> marcosc: related: hybi tried to expose error reason but that just led to the API spec overriding it http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/network.html#closeWebSocket
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  385. # [12:27] <marcosc> zcorpan: thanks!
  386. # [12:27] <zcorpan> which happened instead of just fixing the protocol spec because people who understand web security had got fed up and stopped paying attention to hybi
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  388. # [12:30] <marcosc> ok, one more dumb question: when I try to fetch the following URL (http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-acdi-20030901), it returns a 301, which causes XHR to throw the error. My understanding is that XHR should do the redirect. What am I missing?
  389. # [12:30] <darobin> did you set any specific headers?
  390. # [12:31] <marcosc> darobin: no
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  392. # [12:32] <marcosc> it craps out with http://marcoscaceres.github.com/bib_entry_maker/
  393. # [12:32] <annevk> marcosc: does the redirect have CORS headers supplied?
  394. # [12:32] * marcosc looks at darobin :)
  395. # [12:32] <annevk> marcosc: I think you're hitting that
  396. # [12:32] <darobin> hey you can use curl just as well as I!
  397. # [12:32] <darobin> indeed, that's the bug
  398. # [12:33] <darobin> I'll alert systeam
  399. # [12:33] <marcosc> thanks darobin :)
  400. # [12:35] <marcosc> darobin: fwiw, I think some of the really really old specs (pre 2000) also have some CORS issues.
  401. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> I think that's the least of their issues
  402. # [12:36] <marcosc> heh
  403. # [12:37] <darobin> marcosc: that might be possible
  404. # [12:37] <darobin> I don't know when the current system was set up — there's weird stuff in the oldies
  405. # [12:37] <marcosc> yeah, they must be on another server or something
  406. # [12:38] <darobin> like this http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210
  407. # [12:38] <marcosc> oh man! I'm so gonna start using that BG!
  408. # [12:38] <darobin> that one's under CORS alright
  409. # [12:38] <darobin> it was all the rage back then
  410. # [12:38] <darobin> it makes the specs so readable
  411. # [12:38] <marcosc> it's like I'm reading paper
  412. # [12:39] <Ms2ger> The PNG spec has it too
  413. # [12:39] <darobin> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1-961217
  414. # [12:39] <marcosc> I even reached out to my screen only to realise that it was not a real thing
  415. # [12:39] <darobin> I have fond memories of spending a lot of time with http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1-961217#appendix-b as my first serious computer hacking project :)
  416. # [12:39] <marcosc> and red links FTW!
  417. # [12:40] <darobin> I think I still have that background imprinted in my retina
  418. # [12:40] <marcosc> heh
  419. # [12:40] <darobin> gotta love statements like "The grammar below is LL(1) (but note that most UA's should not use it directly, since it doesn't express the parsing conventions, only the CSS1 syntax)."
  420. # [12:41] <marcosc> :)
  421. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> "Spec? What spec?"
  422. # [12:42] * Joins: darobin_ (~darobin@78.109.80.74)
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  424. # [12:42] <annevk> "We drank too much to figure out the details, but you know, we had a good time and we think this'll improve the web quite a bit."
  425. # [12:43] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238) (Quit: sedovsek)
  426. # [12:43] <darobin_> "If you want to know the parsing conventions we're talking about, no problem, just drop by for a beer" is how I read it
  427. # [12:43] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  428. # [12:44] <annevk> Which they did, which is why we ended up reverse engineering IE, which was a lot less fun.
  429. # [12:44] <Ms2ger> darobin, btw, still waiting for you to move the tests repo
  430. # [12:45] <darobin> ah yes, I could do that :)
  431. # [12:46] <darobin> annevk: we should've accepted that beeer
  432. # [12:46] <marcosc> Ok... now I need to somehow convince the IETF to enable CORS
  433. # [12:46] <annevk> hahaha
  434. # [12:46] <annevk> too early for jokes man
  435. # [12:49] <darobin> marcosc: you might mention something about using HTML while you're there
  436. # [12:49] <darobin> oh, and UTF8
  437. # [12:49] <marcosc> lets not go crazy
  438. # [12:49] <darobin> marcosc: see Twitter
  439. # [12:49] <darobin> IMHO your best shot at it
  440. # [12:49] <marcosc> heh
  441. # [12:50] <darobin> marcosc: I'll let you reply to Mark
  442. # [12:50] <marcosc> ok, thanks
  443. # [12:51] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
  444. # [12:51] <marcosc> Once he sees the awesome biblio entry maker, he will make it happen
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  449. # [13:04] <annevk> so Stream
  450. # [13:04] <annevk> what was the reason to have a separate reader object for file?
  451. # [13:05] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@58.157.197.113.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  452. # [13:09] <annevk> I hope somebody knows
  453. # [13:11] <hsivonen> lovely charset stuff: https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsXMLHttpRequest.cpp#2661
  454. # [13:11] * Joins: klaaspieter (~klaaspiet@095-097-240-221.static.chello.nl)
  455. # [13:12] <annevk> hmm
  456. # [13:13] <annevk> so the spec asks for lowercasing at the moment I Think
  457. # [13:13] <annevk> man
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  460. # [13:29] <jgraham> darobin: You know that thing about "don't use this grammar" is still in 2.1, right?
  461. # [13:32] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@115.112.64.6) (Quit: Leaving)
  462. # [13:33] <darobin> jgraham: yeah but I prefer the original source, it has more style
  463. # [13:35] * Quits: gjones (~gjones@cpc22-brig15-2-0-cust92.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: gjones)
  464. # [13:41] <zcorpan> jgraham: OK i've gone through all the websocket tests now and fixed things i noticed were wrong
  465. # [13:41] <zcorpan> jgraham: should i let someone know?
  466. # [13:42] <jgraham> zcorpan: public-webapps-testsuite
  467. # [13:43] <jgraham> Reply to the last mail I sent there, I guess
  468. # [13:43] <zcorpan> i found an old thread, yeah
  469. # [13:44] <zcorpan> it's kinda funny that people complained about the proposed timeline
  470. # [13:44] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/mid/512F18DB.3010503@opera.com is the message to reply to infact
  471. # [13:45] <zcorpan> hmm, i guess i'm not subscribed, can't find that in my inbox
  472. # [13:46] <jgraham> Subscribe and download the archive files?
  473. # [13:46] <zcorpan> seems like bad use of my time :-) i'll just reply to another message and link to the above
  474. # [13:46] <zcorpan> and subscribe
  475. # [13:47] <jgraham> Fair enough :)
  476. # [13:47] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.4.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  477. # [13:49] <jgraham> Would be kind of useful if mail clients let you set the In-Reply-To header
  478. # [13:49] <jgraham> (well I guess some do)
  479. # [13:49] <darobin> some clients allow you to show arbitrary headers
  480. # [13:49] <darobin> even Mail.app supports that
  481. # [13:49] <darobin> the problem is usually getting them to show it in a useful way
  482. # [13:51] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.4.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  483. # [13:53] <jgraham> I mean set when you compose.
  484. # [13:53] <zcorpan> jgraham: what's next? postMessage?
  485. # [13:54] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.133.46.71) (Quit: bbl)
  486. # [13:54] <jgraham> Possibly register*Handler since that seemed to be almost good to go. But certainly postMessage is the other option
  487. # [13:55] <zcorpan> i don't see postMessage in my critic dashboard. but register*Handler is there
  488. # [13:55] <jgraham> Right, there isn't a review for postMessage
  489. # [13:55] <jgraham> I could create one I guess
  490. # [13:56] <zcorpan> ah, ok
  491. # [13:57] <hsivonen> annevk: so the File API allows the caller to pass an encoding
  492. # [13:57] <hsivonen> annevk: and currently, Firefox throws if the encoding is bogus
  493. # [13:58] <hsivonen> annevk: if the BOM overrides, what should happen when there is a BOM and bogus encoding argument?
  494. # [13:58] <hsivonen> should the BOM just take precedence
  495. # [13:58] <hsivonen> or should the bogosity of the argument be checked first?
  496. # [13:59] * hsivonen is quite unhappy that Firefox's File API impl asks the magic 8-ball for charset instead of doing what the spec says and just falling back to UTF-8
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  498. # [14:00] <jgraham> zcorpan: Created a review for those tests
  499. # [14:00] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-39.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  500. # [14:02] <annevk> hsivonen: see my email to public-webapps
  501. # [14:03] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  502. # [14:04] <hsivonen> annevk: File API review?
  503. # [14:04] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah, I told sicking that would be a BAD IDEA®
  504. # [14:04] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-39.dsl.telepac.pt)
  505. # [14:05] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah, end of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0707.html
  506. # [14:06] <hsivonen> annevk: ok, so throw first
  507. # [14:06] <hsivonen> annevk: afaict, WebKit does not throw
  508. # [14:06] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-39.dsl.telepac.pt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  509. # [14:06] <hsivonen> and doesn't sniff for BOM, either
  510. # [14:06] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah, the current spec does not say to throw
  511. # [14:07] <annevk> hsivonen: not looking for the BOM seems like a bug per current spec
  512. # [14:08] <annevk> hsivonen: I don't care strongly about the throwing I suppose, although it would be consistent with TextDecoder as I noted in my email
  513. # [14:09] <hsivonen> annevk: OK. I'll keep throwing in my patch
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  525. # [14:33] <annevk> Btw, http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-html-longdesc-20130312/#widl-Element-longdesc is bogus, but I'm not sure if anyone cares...
  526. # [14:33] <hsivonen> annevk: wait, when did you tell sicking that using chardet was a bad idea?
  527. # [14:34] <SteveF> annevk: have pinged chaals
  528. # [14:35] <annevk> hsivonen: dunno, seems it might have been four years ago now?
  529. # [14:35] <hsivonen> annevk: whoa. so before review and that stuff still landed?
  530. # [14:35] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@2001:980:9368:1:7dd7:5d41:c2bf:3cd3) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  531. # [14:37] <jgraham> If only the spec had a testsuite and people felt bad about failing it
  532. # [14:39] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  533. # [14:39] <annevk> hsivonen: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/1105.html is my earliest feedback
  534. # [14:40] <annevk> hsivonen: can't actually find where I said that "doing detection" would be bad because it's not interoperable
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  539. # [14:55] <annevk> darobin: seems your b-day coincides with red nose day
  540. # [14:56] <darobin> annevk: that's, errm
  541. # [14:56] <annevk> apt?
  542. # [14:56] <darobin> I guess!
  543. # [14:56] * Quits: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  544. # [14:57] <darobin> I think it'll be at the Royal Oak in Bethnal Green
  545. # [14:57] <darobin> (to be confirmed though)
  546. # [14:59] <annevk> that's a bit out of the way, but should be okay
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  551. # [15:05] <darobin> Bethnal Green rocks :)
  552. # [15:05] <hsivonen> not only does File API use the detector, but it uses the detector through the wrong API...
  553. # [15:06] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@100.155.125.91.dyn.plus.net)
  554. # [15:06] <jgraham> darobin comes all the way from France, and you think that going < 10 tube stops is "a bit out of the way"?
  555. # [15:06] <annevk> it's like 40min according to Google Maps, though I might be able to avoid the tube by taking a bus
  556. # [15:07] <jgraham> (that probably needed a smilie)
  557. # [15:07] <darobin> jgraham: in .nl, ten tube stops takes you to Belgium, give him some time to adapt
  558. # [15:07] <annevk> I could also walk, which it estimates at 1:07 which is not all bad
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  560. # [15:07] <SimonSapin> annevk: do you dislike the tube that much?
  561. # [15:08] <annevk> SimonSapin: no, the tube connection to there is just bad
  562. # [15:08] <jgraham> (seems like bethnal green tube station is <20 minutes by tube from Leicester Square, which is near Moz. at least, iirc)
  563. # [15:09] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@100.155.125.91.dyn.plus.net) (Excess Flood)
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  565. # [15:09] <annevk> (the pub is not next to that station)
  566. # [15:10] * Parts: mmazer (~mmazer@bas2-toronto08-1096792173.dsl.bell.ca)
  567. # [15:11] <jgraham> No
  568. # [15:11] * Joins: decotii (~decotii@hq.croscon.com)
  569. # [15:11] <jgraham> It's not next to *any* station
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  577. # [15:17] <annevk> but it is next to a bus stop :)
  578. # [15:17] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl7-115-39.dsl.telepac.pt)
  579. # [15:18] <annevk> We should maybe put something here about architecture otherwise management might think we're slacking off, solely discussing London's public transport for a b-day party next Friday (not even today!)...
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  582. # [15:23] <jgraham> I hate MySQL
  583. # [15:23] <jgraham> I think that has me covered
  584. # [15:24] <annevk> <css/>
  585. # [15:25] <zewt> heh
  586. # [15:25] <zewt> mysql pretty much seems like what novices pick because nobody told them about postgres
  587. # [15:25] <jgraham> In this case that might well be true
  588. # [15:26] <jgraham> (actually it might well be Hixie that picked MySQL back in the dawn of time)
  589. # [15:26] <jgraham> (I'm not sure)
  590. # [15:27] <zewt> "lamp" is probably the single worst open-source quasi-marketing fad there was
  591. # [15:28] <zewt> "hey everyone! you should use these three bad technologies so you fit the acronym"
  592. # [15:28] <jgraham> Is apache "bad"
  593. # [15:28] <jgraham> ?
  594. # [15:29] <jgraham> (ngix might be better, but it didn't exist at the time)
  595. # [15:29] <zewt> well, it's not so good that it should be used without evaluation, at least
  596. # [15:30] <zewt> i think it's more the "stop thinking and just use this set of things"-ishness of it all that i found unpleasant
  597. # [15:30] <jgraham> So, if anyone does know why MySQL allows you to override the charset and the collation on a per-connection basis, and how I fix the collation to be utf8_bin, that would be helpful
  598. # [15:31] * Joins: Zauberfisch|idle (~Zauberfis@2a01:4f8:100:73c3::3)
  599. # [15:31] <zewt> dear gmail: stop logging me out while i'm writing mail. thanks
  600. # [15:31] <jgraham> (Well I can do SET NAMES ...) but I don't know how that interacts with sqlalchemy, exactly
  601. # [15:31] <annevk> jgraham: maybe matjas?
  602. # [15:31] <annevk> dunno if he's online
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  604. # [15:36] * ronald_mansveld is now known as ronaldmansveld
  605. # [15:39] <darobin> fwiw when LAMP was minted it was descriptive of a practice, not an attempt to prescribe or sell it
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  607. # [15:41] <jgraham> "The description in the following sections may appear complex, but it has been found in practice that multiple-level defaulting leads to natural and obvious results."
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  609. # [15:42] <zewt> giggle
  610. # [15:42] <jgraham> I believe that is the "I'm high as a kite" moment
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  613. # [15:43] <zewt> tip to anyone running a business: if the user email thing you use calls itself "constant contact", you're a spammer
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  615. # [15:45] <matjas> jgraham: check the mysql.conf settings in this post http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/mysql-utf8mb4
  616. # [15:45] <matjas> err, /etc/my.cnf
  617. # [15:45] <matjas> jgraham: also, why utf8_bin and not utf8mb4_bin?
  618. # [15:46] <jgraham> matjas: Don't tell me, I can guess this one, utf8 doesn't actually let you store all of unicode?
  619. # [15:46] <matjas> jgraham: you guessed it.
  620. # [15:46] <matjas> MySQL’s `utf8` is a lie
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  622. # [15:47] <jgraham> OK, I was wrong
  623. # [15:48] <jgraham> The "high as a kite" moment came long before they got to the documentation
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  627. # [15:51] <gavinc> yeah, but utf8mb4 means that all the things you think about how big indexs are and how long the built in types are, are wrong :(
  628. # [15:52] <gavinc> a number of places that say "characters" mean, sets of bytes / 3, not bytes / 4
  629. # [15:52] * jgraham would be happy if all the things he thought about how equality works were right
  630. # [15:53] <annevk> Oh yes, we have a NES at the office!
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  632. # [15:55] <zewt> sad when I make a big list of what seem to me like horrifying complex interop nightmares, and the reply ignores them all and just goes "but it's easier to implement"
  633. # [15:55] * Joins: klaaspieter (~klaaspiet@095-097-240-221.static.chello.nl)
  634. # [15:59] <zcorpan> {if(themALL.code = DOMException.SECURITY_ERR)
  635. # [15:59] <zcorpan> {e++}
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  637. # [15:59] <zcorpan> jgraham: it seems safe to assume that the above was meant to be ==, right?
  638. # [15:59] * Joins: baku (~baku@2-236-39-253.ip231.fastwebnet.it)
  639. # [16:00] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah
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  649. # [16:20] <jgraham> zcorpan: (I'm sure it meant to be === :)
  650. # [16:20] <zcorpan> jgraham: i made it == :-P
  651. # [16:21] <zcorpan> ok i'll call it a day now. will finish my batch of converting URLs to be server-agnostic and commit that on monday
  652. # [16:22] <zcorpan> have a nice weekend
  653. # [16:23] <jgraham> You too
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  655. # [16:23] <zcorpan> it doesn't start all too well. i blame brucel for that...
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  657. # [16:24] <zcorpan> i hope i have recovered on monday at least
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  659. # [16:24] <zcorpan> anyway
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  681. # [17:10] <annevk> zewt: fwiw, I agree with sicking et al that passing of Stream from XHR is weird
  682. # [17:10] <annevk> zewt: and counter to the model
  683. # [17:10] <zewt> i think the "xhr keeps running" thing is completely batshit insane
  684. # [17:10] <zewt> and that returning the stream fits the model--start request, something happens, onload fires when the result is available--quite well
  685. # [17:11] <annevk> no, the model is that you wait for the complete response, including its entity body, or just wait forever if that happens to load forever
  686. # [17:12] <zewt> nothing about the xhr api implies that
  687. # [17:12] <annevk> stream is just another way to expose the resonse entity body
  688. # [17:12] <annevk> response*
  689. # [17:12] <annevk> XHR controls the entire request/response, everything implies that
  690. # [17:13] <zewt> nothing i can see :)
  691. # [17:14] <zewt> and i think that's a minute concern anyway, compared to all the issues with doing it that way
  692. # [17:14] <zewt> every time i think about it, whole new issues come to mind
  693. # [17:15] <jgraham> It does seem pretty odd to have an XHR that will never fire onload
  694. # [17:15] <jgraham> But doesn't have an error
  695. # [17:16] <annevk> zewt: I don't think there's that many issues to be honest
  696. # [17:16] <annevk> jgraham: it will fire onload once the connection closes
  697. # [17:16] <jgraham> "yay"
  698. # [17:16] <jgraham> I mean, that seems rather useless
  699. # [17:16] <zewt> i've listed quite a number, so by all means reply to a few :)
  700. # [17:17] <zewt> (on the list, can't get into that much detail right now)
  701. # [17:17] <annevk> zewt: the event ordering thing is just getting all the task sources right, sync xhr and streams seems pointless, ...
  702. # [17:17] <jgraham> It is pretty clear in general that people want a way to hook into "this data is usable now"
  703. # [17:18] <zewt> sync xhr and streams isn't useless at all; let me open a synchronous request in a worker and parse the result as it comes in
  704. # [17:18] <annevk> jgraham: ah yeah, we should maybe have an event for when the headers are in / first bit of entity body is in
  705. # [17:19] <jgraham> Why wouldn't we call that event "load"?
  706. # [17:19] <annevk> zewt: since the parsing is async anyway it doesn't have to be loaded sync
  707. # [17:19] <annevk> jgraham: because load means the entity body is in
  708. # [17:19] <zewt> sorry, don't understand that
  709. # [17:19] <annevk> k
  710. # [17:19] <jgraham> annevk: That's a very low-level view
  711. # [17:20] <zewt> for example, if you wanted to implement something EventSource-like in a worker
  712. # [17:20] <jgraham> To put it differently, what's the use case for load being after the stream is closed?
  713. # [17:22] <zewt> given a synchronous version of StreamReader (there isn't one yet, but that's a separate problem), you'd just run a sync XHR to create the Stream, then use StreamReader to synchronously read data as it comes in--this seems very useful
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  717. # [17:28] <annevk> jgraham: tick the progress bar
  718. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> jgraham, yt?
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  720. # [17:28] <jgraham> Ms2ger: For a few seconds
  721. # [17:29] <jgraham> annevk: Don't really see how that's a use case for load-after-close
  722. # [17:29] <jgraham> Could be a use case for a close event on the stream
  723. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> jgraham, do you know what the has_assertions() is for in the testharness.js results table code?
  724. # [17:29] <zewt> jgraham: well, i wouldn't necessarily say that we need use cases for side-effects of design
  725. # [17:29] <annevk> jgraham: euhm, the stream is somewhat distinct from network transfer
  726. # [17:30] <annevk> jgraham: you wouldn't want your progress bar implementation to have to hook into different objects
  727. # [17:31] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Not obviously. I am thinking that git blame will point at Aryeh. I will look more at home in a bit
  728. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> Mm
  729. # [17:32] * Ms2ger looks
  730. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> Huh, no, to Peter
  731. # [17:33] <jgraham> Right, I was just thinking
  732. # [17:33] <jgraham> This is probably to do with the stuff for extracting metadata from the test file
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  734. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> Oh, that kind of assertions
  735. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> Meh
  736. # [17:34] <jgraham> You can do something like test(function(){}, name, {assert:"Somethihng from a spec"})
  737. # [17:34] <jgraham> Yeah, quite confusing
  738. # [17:34] <jgraham> Shouldn't have let that through code review I think, but oh well
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  744. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> jgraham, btw, is the result table the only user of the templating code?
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  760. # [18:11] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  761. # [18:11] <annevk> good afternoon dglazkov
  762. # [18:14] <annevk> pushed an update to http://html5.org/temp/fetch.html btw; now maps Hixie-stuff to annevk-stuff
  763. # [18:14] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  764. # [18:15] <annevk> Hixie: fwiw, I can probably change it back completely, but I think that once we unravel the various request/response things for offline we're going to end up with the kind of request/response model this thing outlines so I'd rather just go there...
  765. # [18:15] <slightlyoff> annevk: I owe you a read-through of that
  766. # [18:16] <slightlyoff> annevk: would love seeing it in pseudo-code instead of prose, though = (
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  768. # [18:16] <annevk> slightlyoff: there's http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Pseudo-code though it's not entirely accurate anymore
  769. # [18:17] <annevk> slightlyoff: but it gives a high-level overview that's somewhat accurate and illustrates some of the weirdness
  770. # [18:17] <slightlyoff> aha! thanks.
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  772. # [18:18] <slightlyoff> I enjoy that this is Python...the language of the web! ;-)
  773. # [18:19] <annevk> I find Python more writable and readable than JavaScript and since I don't have to run it anywhere...
  774. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> We all hate JS here
  775. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> That's why we work on the DOM :)
  776. # [18:20] <dglazkov> I don't hate JS
  777. # [18:20] * kbrosnan_ is now known as kbrosnan
  778. # [18:21] <annevk> Right, the DOM will supplant JavaScript eventually :p
  779. # [18:21] <dglazkov> I try not to hate anything
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  782. # [18:22] <annevk> dglazkov: you're not following the channel rules
  783. # [18:22] <annevk> (there are none, but you also do and do not have to leave your sense of logic at the door)
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  785. # [18:24] <slightlyoff> Ms2ger: it shows? ;-)
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  787. # [18:25] <tobie> slightlyoff: :(
  788. # [18:25] <annevk> I usually don't design APIs, but when I do, it shows.
  789. # [18:26] <slightlyoff> hah
  790. # [18:26] <slightlyoff> = )
  791. # [18:26] <annevk> Seriously though, I'm mostly documenting a mess created ten years ago, plus CORS, which is only partly my fault.
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  793. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> vindication http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuite/2013Mar/0015.html Indeed something wonky in MS Redmond network that was causing websocket test failures
  794. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> advantage jgraham
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  796. # [18:32] <karlcow> Oh pseudo-code I can read! http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Pseudo-code ♥ annevk
  797. # [18:33] <annevk> Maybe we should just write specs in Python/JavaScript rather than English
  798. # [18:34] <karlcow> \o/
  799. # [18:34] <annevk> <- not serious
  800. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> Why not brainfuck?
  801. # [18:35] * karlcow proposes pseudo-Haiku for minimalism
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  803. # [18:35] <annevk> Why not Zoidberg?
  804. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> Because he's not a programming language
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  810. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> in programming languages were people, INTERCAL would be me
  811. # [18:41] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yes
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  815. # [18:46] <jgraham> MikeSmith: So what to do about the websockets thing? Do you actually see the websockets requests for the Microsoft IPs?
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  817. # [18:47] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Well actually
  818. # [18:48] <jgraham> I don't know about the testharnessreport.js that plinss wrote
  819. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> jgraham: didn't check yet. I am considering to not do any further troubleshooting of their effed up network for them until they pay me for the invoice I submitted to them for the time I already spent. Which to be fair was probably less than 1 hour total, but I bill at Oracle DBA rates.
  820. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> Doesn't look like it
  821. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> jgraham: seriously I plan to do nothing except to support moving them into approved
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  823. # [18:49] <jgraham> MikeSmith: heh
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  825. # [18:50] <jgraham> Anyway, my suspicion is that it is indeed something on the Microsoft network that's causing the problem
  826. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> yup
  827. # [18:51] <jgraham> But it looks like Ken believes that the W3C might be treating requests from Microsoft differently
  828. # [18:51] <jgraham> So it would be good to rule that out
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  842. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> jgraham: if W3C is treating requests from MS differently it would be because our network defenses are doing it for a good reason
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  844. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> e.g., them having some tools that end up making abusive amounts of DTD requests
  845. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> DTD DDoS
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  847. # [19:12] <jgraham> Well yeah, it could be
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  849. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> actually now that I say that I recall that have in fact already had some specific problems with MS and W3C network that I never heard any resolution about it
  850. # [19:12] <jgraham> I don't really see why rate limiting would cause this type of problem though
  851. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> yeah it was not a simple rate limiting problem
  852. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> I think it may not have even been the W3C network specifically but instead som MIT network defenses
  853. # [19:14] <jgraham> Interesting
  854. # [19:14] <jgraham> I wonder why it would affect websockets in particular
  855. # [19:15] <jgraham> (also, the irony of Microsoft not being able to access tests on a server that they paid for is not lost on me)
  856. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> heh
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  864. # [19:24] <Hixie> christ, the w3c continues its "stable" nonsense
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  866. # [19:28] <marcosc> :)
  867. # [19:29] <marcosc> speaking of which, we are remaking the famous red bar at the bottom of specs: https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/issues/21
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  871. # [19:33] <karlcow> Well Microsoft doesn't always fix their product, even when told. :)
  872. # [19:33] * karlcow has his own story with a lunar calendar
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  876. # [19:34] <Hixie> hm, still no heycam
  877. # [19:34] <Hixie> is he on vacation?
  878. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  879. # [19:34] <Hixie> k
  880. # [19:34] * Ms2ger checks the dates
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  882. # [19:35] <Hixie> no worries
  883. # [19:35] * Hixie punts the bug to Q2
  884. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> That's probably best
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  886. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> I suspect he'll spend the rest of Q1 on email backlogs :)
  887. # [19:36] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@193.136.98.59)
  888. # [19:37] <Ms2ger> Looks like heycam is away until the 24th
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  890. # [19:39] <karlcow> though it seems Apple is no better.
  891. # [19:39] <jgraham> karlcow: You were bitten by a Microsoft employee and now you can't go out at the full moon?
  892. # [19:40] <karlcow> grep MoonPhase.ics access.log.132* | grep "Feb/2012" | wc -l
  893. # [19:40] <karlcow> 516354
  894. # [19:40] <karlcow> "GET /2002/09/13-MoonPhase.ics HTTP/1.1" 410 319
  895. # [19:40] <karlcow> half a million requests last February for a file which 410 Gone.
  896. # [19:40] <karlcow> which is
  897. # [19:41] <karlcow> These days it seems to be mostly coming from iOS and DataAccess
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  901. # [19:42] <karlcow> I guess Microsoft Outlook finally removed it from distribution.
  902. # [19:43] <karlcow> the initial file (Gone now) had a cache information for years, but any kind of calendars are still checking everything 30 minutes or so.
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  904. # [19:44] <internaut_jack> Looks like the "contenteditable" attribute doesn't allow <label> elements to be edited.
  905. # [19:44] <karlcow> Sometimes I wonder if instead I should put a calendar with a repeating event every day that would fill the calendar of people
  906. # [19:44] <internaut_jack> As in, they look like they should be able to be edited, and the text can be *deleted*
  907. # [19:44] <internaut_jack> But not typed
  908. # [19:44] <internaut_jack> Anyone seen this?
  909. # [19:44] <Hixie> internaut_jack: sounds like a browser-specific issue
  910. # [19:45] <internaut_jack> This is in Chrome 25.0.1364.155
  911. # [19:45] <internaut_jack> Would someone please validate? I'll file a bug if it can be replicated.
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  914. # [19:49] <Hixie> seems to work fine for me
  915. # [19:50] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2137
  916. # [19:57] <internaut_jack> Hixie, the div has the contenteditable attribute in your example, rather than the label
  917. # [19:57] <internaut_jack> Try putting it right on the label element itself
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  924. # [20:18] <garciawebdev> can i use any values on the rel attribute? or just the ones listed on http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#linkTypes ?
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  927. # [20:20] <JonathanNeal> garciawebdev: 4.12.5.14 Other link types Extensions to the predefined set of link types may be registered in the microformats wiki existing-rel-values page. http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=existing-rel-values
  928. # [20:21] <JonathanNeal> Not sure if the validator reflects it, though.
  929. # [20:23] <garciawebdev> JonathanNeal, thanks, validator said my value was not valid
  930. # [20:24] <garciawebdev> but i've seen many use other values not specified there, so i just wanted to check
  931. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: what I just wrote above, ^ ,is that legit?
  932. # [20:25] <JonathanNeal> garciawebdev: I think it's right. It's what the spec says. I just wouldn't want to mislead you.
  933. # [20:26] <garciawebdev> JonathanNeal what's right? the validator complaining about my value?
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  935. # [20:27] <JonathanNeal> Ah, sorry, that you can use those values. I thought it would give you a warning in the validator, but I see that it gives you an error.
  936. # [20:27] <Hixie> internaut_jack: i tried it on the <label> too, seemed to work fine
  937. # [20:27] <Hixie> internaut_jack: can you make a test case that shows the problem?
  938. # [20:28] <internaut_jack> Hixie, I have a fiddle, and it works fine there too. Debugging further to see if I can replicate elsewhere.
  939. # [20:28] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: if there's a spec that defines what the link type does, sure
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  951. # [20:49] <tantek> garciawebdev - what rel value are you using that's giving you an error?
  952. # [20:50] <garciawebdev> tantek, it's rel="invite"
  953. # [20:50] <garciawebdev> designer put it...
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  955. # [20:50] <garciawebdev> and use that to initialize a jQuery plugin
  956. # [20:50] <garciawebdev> you know...
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  964. # [21:07] <Hixie> garciawebdev: what does it do?
  965. # [21:08] <garciawebdev> Hixie, sorry, not actually a plugin, it opens a modal
  966. # [21:08] <garciawebdev> when clicking on a button
  967. # [21:09] <Hixie> but what dos rel=invite mean?
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  986. # [21:47] <garciawebdev> Hixie that's what i'm not sure
  987. # [21:48] <garciawebdev> Hixie, i don't know, maybe the designer thought he could put anything into rel. is it possible or not?
  988. # [21:48] <garciawebdev> (to put anything on it)
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  1026. # [22:53] <tantek> garciawebdev - it's possible if it's defined in a spec, and if it's not redundant with existing rel values.
  1027. # [22:53] <tantek> I'm not sure rel="invite" makes sense for a modal
  1028. # [22:54] <tantek> I'm not even sure what would make sense for a link to a modal
  1029. # [22:54] <tantek> is it a dialog like one you would enter in friends's emails to invite them to use the site?
  1030. # [22:54] <garciawebdev> tantek, i see, i didn't saw it in a spec, also, no, it doesn't. i think a valid href makes more sense
  1031. # [22:54] <tantek> yeah
  1032. # [22:54] <garciawebdev> tantek exactly, you seem to read minds
  1033. # [22:54] <garciawebdev> hahhahah
  1034. # [22:55] <garciawebdev> exactly that
  1035. # [22:55] * tantek tries not to abuse his powers.
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  1046. # [23:14] <Hixie> can anyone work out what anne is talking about in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20571 ?
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  1057. # [23:42] <tantek> garciawebdev - looks like there's some use of data-rel=dialog here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10949549/jquery-mobile-how-to-simulate-data-rel-dialog
  1058. # [23:42] <tantek> I wonder if that use is related to your use
  1059. # [23:44] <tantek> so we have the <dialog> element for marking up in-page dialog content, but we don't really have a way to markup external pages that are used as dialogs for the current page, do we?
  1060. # [23:44] <garciawebdev> tantek i'm almost sure it's an arbitrary decision of the designer to use it for selecting that anchor from jQuery
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  1070. # Session Close: Sat Mar 09 00:00:00 2013

The end :)