/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-03-18 / end

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  131. # [10:04] <zcorpan> if old gecko looked for "mathml" in the SI, and this is what the mathml spec uses, why is a new FPI suggested instead of doing what old gecko did?
  132. # [10:04] <zcorpan> the new FPI isn't going to fix the mathml spec
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  134. # [10:05] <zcorpan> if the mathml spec is going to be changed (to use the new FPI), it could be changed to use one of the already supported doctypes or to avoid entities
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  150. # [10:48] <odinho> So, webapps (particulary) and webappsec joining web-platform-tests will create a folder explosion because of all the different specs.
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  153. # [10:48] <odinho> I am right in that we'll have toplevel folders for every spec, right?
  154. # [10:49] <odinho> (because I just said so on the webappsec list :P heh)
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  156. # [10:49] <Ms2ger> Yes
  157. # [10:49] <Ms2ger> Webapps has ~15 at this point
  158. # [10:49] <odinho> Okay, goodie, I didn't lie.
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  163. # [11:01] <zcorpan> Hixie: is it possible to allow https for resources.whatwg.org ?
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  166. # [11:01] <Ms2ger`> Ah, darobin_
  167. # [11:02] <zcorpan> or should we mirror e.g. file-bug.js somewhere on dvcs.w3.org or so? (how?)
  168. # [11:03] <zcorpan> darobin_: ^
  169. # [11:03] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  170. # [11:04] <darobin> zcorpan: what do you want to do with file-bug.js?
  171. # [11:04] <Ms2ger`> darobin, I want you to fix https://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/approved/interfaces.html
  172. # [11:04] <zcorpan> darobin: include it in e.g. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/raw-file/tip/cssom-view/Overview.html
  173. # [11:05] <zcorpan> darobin: http: no longer works and resources.whatwg.org doesn't support https
  174. # [11:05] <darobin> zcorpan: ok, but I'm missing some context :) does it need to be on the same origin?
  175. # [11:05] <darobin> ah, gotcha
  176. # [11:06] <darobin> I reckon you could mirror it yes, or I could set that up
  177. # [11:06] <darobin> I could even mirror it to w3c-test.org which does support https
  178. # [11:07] <zcorpan> darobin: if you could set up a mirror somewhere, that'd be splendid :-)
  179. # [11:07] <darobin> zcorpan: is the source on github somewhere?
  180. # [11:07] <darobin> Ms2ger`: it's looking like someone clobbered the webidl2.js clone there, investigating
  181. # [11:08] <Ms2ger`> darobin, more to the point, there's no WebIDLParser.js
  182. # [11:08] <zcorpan> yes. https://github.com/whatwg/resources.whatwg.org
  183. # [11:08] <darobin> zcorpan: ta, looking at that now
  184. # [11:08] <darobin> Ms2ger`: hmmmm, yeah, that's... from webidl.js v1 — it doesn't exist anymore
  185. # [11:09] <Ms2ger`> darobin, why not just call it that too?
  186. # [11:09] <darobin> call what what?
  187. # [11:09] <Ms2ger`> The new parser .js file
  188. # [11:09] <darobin> it doesn't have the same interface
  189. # [11:10] <darobin> that DOM test is referring to a dirty hack from ancient history
  190. # [11:10] <Ms2ger`> And so do all other idlharness.js tests
  191. # [11:10] <darobin> Ms2ger`: oooh, fun!
  192. # [11:10] <darobin> so, when I announced an update, I'm guessing no one took notice?
  193. # [11:11] <Ms2ger`> Oh, I did test the update
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  195. # [11:11] <Ms2ger`> Only at that point, it didn't require changing the test
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  197. # [11:11] <darobin> I didn't remove the WebIDLParser.js
  198. # [11:11] <darobin> I have no idea who did
  199. # [11:11] <darobin> ok, let me apply a quick fix
  200. # [11:13] <darobin> oh right, the quick fix won't work
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  202. # [11:13] * darobin injects some coffee
  203. # [11:13] <darobin> Ms2ger`: may I propose a way forward?
  204. # [11:14] <darobin> how about you move those tests to GH
  205. # [11:14] <darobin> once they're there, I fix all the idlharness madness?
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  208. # [11:14] <Ms2ger`> How?
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  211. # [11:15] <Ms2ger`> darobin, I mean, the tests need to include a <script> that points to the parser, right?
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  213. # [11:17] <darobin> zcorpan: http://w3c-test.org/resources.whatwg.org/
  214. # [11:17] <tobie> Wouldn't it make sense to compile those tests server side anyway?
  215. # [11:17] <zcorpan> darobin: thanks!
  216. # [11:17] <Ms2ger`> I probably object to any compilation step
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  218. # [11:17] <tobie> Ms2ger`: why?
  219. # [11:18] <Ms2ger`> Because that makes it harder to set up
  220. # [11:18] <darobin> Ms2ger`: the right way with the new idlharness is: http://berjon.com/tmp/geotest/
  221. # [11:18] <tobie> makes what harder to setup?
  222. # [11:18] <darobin> so yes you need to change the <script>
  223. # [11:18] <darobin> Ms2ger`: what I was offering was to do that part, but in exchange for that you move the files to GH
  224. # [11:19] <darobin> that way, I don't get to do any hg, and you don't get to do any JS
  225. # [11:19] <darobin> seems like a good plan for all involved
  226. # [11:19] <Ms2ger`> darobin, why? What's wrong with changing the file name of the script to what it was before, instead of changing all the references?
  227. # [11:19] <darobin> hmmmm
  228. # [11:20] <darobin> I could add a rewrite for sure, but I'm wondering if it's enough
  229. # [11:20] <Ms2ger`> tobie, first, I have no idea what kind of compilation you're thinking about, and second, I want to be able to checkout a repository and not need to do any compilation step before I can run my tests
  230. # [11:20] <Ms2ger`> darobin, let's try that first, then :)
  231. # [11:20] <darobin> sorry, I got up at 5 to go get my daughter at the train station, this "logic" you insist on using is not making it's way through
  232. # [11:20] * darobin needs sugar
  233. # [11:21] * Ms2ger` wonders what darobin's daughter was doing at the train station at 5am
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  235. # [11:22] <darobin> Ms2ger`: coming back from her ski holiday :)
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  237. # [11:30] <tobie> Ms2ger`: what's your use case for running those tests?
  238. # [11:30] <tobie> I mean: what are you aiming to do when running them like that?
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  242. # [11:31] <Ms2ger`> tobie, running tests while offline, adding tests and running them, integrating them in a continuous integration system
  243. # [11:32] <tobie> Ms2ger`: there's a bunch of tests that have build steps: e.g.: all ref tests, i18n tests, some other ones I can't remember right now.
  244. # [11:32] <zcorpan> Ms2ger`: i guess you have write access to anolis, right?
  245. # [11:33] <Ms2ger`> zcorpan, I do, yes
  246. # [11:33] <Ms2ger`> tobie, my ref tests run fine without any build steps
  247. # [11:33] <zcorpan> Ms2ger`: could you change the <!--logo--> substitution to load the image over https?
  248. # [11:33] <tobie> oh. on FF.
  249. # [11:33] <zcorpan> Ms2ger`: sub.py, search for "logo"
  250. # [11:33] <tobie> Sure.
  251. # [11:33] <Ms2ger`> Sure
  252. # [11:33] <Ms2ger`> zcorpan, you could also send me a pull request ;)
  253. # [11:34] <zcorpan> thanks
  254. # [11:34] <tobie> You have a custom build of the browser however. :)
  255. # [11:34] <zcorpan> Ms2ger`: oh it's on github now?
  256. # [11:34] <Ms2ger`> zcorpan, bitbucket
  257. # [11:35] <Ms2ger`> tobie, no, I've also got a test runner that allows running reftests
  258. # [11:35] <Ms2ger`> tobie, based on manual inspection, of course
  259. # [11:35] <tobie> oh.
  260. # [11:35] <tobie> yeah.
  261. # [11:36] <tobie> I'm wondering if there's be value in providing build of the test suite.
  262. # [11:36] * zcorpan 101 switching trains
  263. # [11:36] <Ms2ger`> I still don't know what you mean by "build"
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  265. # [11:36] <tobie> damned. I thought switching terminology in the middle of my argument would trick you.
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  268. # [11:38] <tobie> Ms2ger`: for example, i18n tests are all contained in a php file and generated on the fly into testharness tests.
  269. # [11:39] <tobie> idlharness tests are also turned into testharness tests, but client-side.
  270. # [11:39] <Ms2ger`> I'm not quite convinced that's a reasonable thing to do, but sure
  271. # [11:39] <tobie> I'm not convinced either.
  272. # [11:39] <tobie> I'd be doing it if I was.
  273. # [11:40] <tobie> Not asking about it.
  274. # [11:40] <tobie> :)
  275. # [11:40] <Ms2ger`> Anyway, I'm off for lunch and class after that
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  277. # [11:43] <Ms2ger`> And tell zcorpan that I pushed his change
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  291. # [12:02] <zcorpan> logo-ED is still http: but maybe that was pointed out already? is someone fixing that?
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  294. # [12:10] <zcorpan> darobin: ^
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  296. # [12:11] <darobin> damn, he left
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  303. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: https://w3c-test.org/resources/WebIDLParser.js seems to be back
  304. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> https://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/approved/interfaces.html is still broken
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  306. # [12:59] * Ms2ger pokes darobin
  307. # [12:59] <darobin> MikeSmith: it's not the right one
  308. # [13:00] <darobin> I'll fix this after lunch
  309. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> ok
  310. # [13:00] <darobin> go back to vacation :)
  311. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> :-)
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  327. # [13:30] <zcorpan_> darobin: here now
  328. # [13:31] <darobin> zcorpan_: I think that bug's been reported before but I can't find a trace of it so I reported it again
  329. # [13:32] <zcorpan_> darobin: ok, thanks
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  338. # [13:44] <zcorpan_> would be fun to see how join() behaves with host objects as this
  339. # [13:46] <darobin> zcorpan_: I approve of your idea of fun
  340. # [13:47] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2165
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  344. # [13:49] <zcorpan_> that one had the same behavior in opera/chrome/firefox. this one is different in firefox: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2166
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  346. # [13:51] <Ms2ger> zcorpan_, yeah, that's probably getting fixed as we move form to our new bindings
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  350. # [14:06] <zcorpan_> for how long are we going to have "experimental-webgl" as the context? forever?
  351. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> Probably
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  354. # [14:08] <zcorpan_> splendid
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  357. # [14:12] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: reviewed http://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/8
  358. # [14:13] <Ms2ger> Yep, thanks
  359. # [14:13] <Ms2ger> And good that that one is notreached indeed :)
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  361. # [14:21] <Ms2ger> So is it expected that any time I click a critic link, I get redirected to /home instead?
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  365. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> zcorpan_, so about the spec bug for typed arrays, apparently TC39 is going to spec them and the editors don't care about the Khronos spec anymore
  366. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: is it reported to tc39?
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  369. # [14:29] <Ms2ger> zcorpan_, not by me, but dherman said they'd make sure to match implementations
  370. # [14:30] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: i got redirected to home once as well. weird. jgraham, you know what's up?
  371. # [14:31] <odinho> Man, that was GitHub integration. It asked me to authorize critic when I clicked that.
  372. # [14:31] <odinho> I pressed OK, got to home screen, -- but this next time I got to the review. :-)
  373. # [14:31] <Ms2ger> I've put a note on my todo list to review the tc39 spec once it happens
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  375. # [14:33] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: ok
  376. # [14:33] <webben> Hmm. Is there a sane way to read the HTTP bis work in HTML format?
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  378. # [14:34] <webben> or is going and picking through https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/ to get the slightly crufty "HTML" the best currently possible?
  379. # [14:34] <hsivonen> From the "are CDMs plug-ins or not" dept: https://plus.google.com/100314989943113365362/posts/ULA2Wvb2MNE
  380. # [14:37] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: jgraham: https://github.com/jensl/critic/issues/33
  381. # [14:37] <Ms2ger> webben, things like http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-httpbis-authscheme-registrations-06.html are the best you can get
  382. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> odinho, fwiw, I tend to keep my manifests sorted on the filename
  383. # [14:42] <odinho> Ms2ger: But they don't even seem alphabetically sorted atm :-)
  384. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> odinho, they should be if you ignore the "support" part
  385. # [14:44] <odinho> Oh, that's too advanced for me to understand, okay :-) No fan, but I see you have a system.
  386. # [14:45] <odinho> I think I would've done -> manual a, support a, support b, a, b, c
  387. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> That would also work
  388. # [14:46] * Ms2ger doesn't think it matters too much
  389. # [14:46] <odinho> But haven't written in those extra things. -- Nah, it doesn't. Hence note :D
  390. # [14:48] <webben> Ms2ger: that's an improvement over what I'd found cheers
  391. # [14:48] <darobin> Ms2ger: check https://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/approved/interfaces.html again sweetie
  392. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> np
  393. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> Thanks, my love
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  395. # [14:54] <jgraham> Ms2ger, odinho: Yeah, the critic GH integration doens't pass the url you were actually tryimng to access through the OAuth redirection hoops, so you always end up on the homepage after you log in
  396. # [14:54] <jgraham> It's a bug
  397. # [14:54] <Ms2ger> Okay
  398. # [14:55] <odinho> jgraham: Still I'm impressed, quite nice work there :-)
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  415. # [15:37] <Ms2ger> Hmm, does critic automatically catch addressed issues?
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  419. # [15:52] <darobin> zcorpan_: I'm told the logo bug should be gone
  420. # [15:54] <zcorpan_> darobin: verified. thanks!
  421. # [15:54] <darobin> zcorpan_: I only sent an email, the almighty systeam actually took care of it :)
  422. # [15:55] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: if something is changed on the line(s) of the issue, critic assumes the issue is addressed, i think
  423. # [15:55] <Ms2ger> Interesting
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  427. # [16:16] <Ms2ger> So, anyone who still wants to have a look at the webgl tests?
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  435. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> If so, feel free to do that at some later point
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  439. # [16:47] <zcorpan_> jgraham: hmm. i'm trying to use the return value of a function that i run with step()
  440. # [16:47] <zcorpan_> jgraham: but step() seems to throw away the return value
  441. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> What would you expect it to return?
  442. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> step() runs immediately
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  445. # [16:50] <zcorpan_> var rv = this.step(function() { return 'Foo'; }); // rv === 'Foo'
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  447. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> Mm
  448. # [16:51] <zcorpan_> currently rv === undefined
  449. # [16:51] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  450. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> Pull request? ;)
  451. # [16:52] <zcorpan_> sure. i think it's just prepend 'return ' to this line: func.apply(this_obj, Array.prototype.slice.call(arguments, 2));
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  461. # [17:06] <zcorpan_> https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/pull/14
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  471. # [17:26] <zcorpan_> are there specific Date values that are particularly interesting to test in structured clone?
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  473. # [17:28] * zcorpan_ notices that new Date(-0) has two possible implementations per spec
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  485. # [17:44] <jwalden> it might not take too much pushing to give that only one implementation, if browser engines agree on what should happen with that, but I don't know the actual reason both are permitted -- choice-of-representation seems pretty weak without different implementations actually requiring it
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  488. # [17:52] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2167 - opera/chrome have different representations, firefox doesn't
  489. # [17:53] <zcorpan_> maybe it depends on the hardware, too
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  492. # [17:54] <zcorpan_> i'll just test that, whatever the representation, it's consistent between window and worker and it doesn't get mangled from structured clone
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  544. # [19:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://platform.html5.org/history/ needs an entry for fonts
  545. # [19:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: but I'm not sure where
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  591. # [21:24] <Hixie> man, browsers don't seem to have caught up with the dnd model
  592. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Hah
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  596. # [21:26] <tantek> Hixie, maybe it's a bad model?
  597. # [21:27] <Ms2ger> Maybe it's such horrible code that nobody wants to touch it with a foot-long pole?
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  611. # [21:43] <tantek> Ms2ger, why not both?
  612. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> Possible
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  655. # [22:59] <Hixie> tantek: it's the improvements to the model they're not picking up, not the original model
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  663. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the original terrible model is reasonably usable everywhere, last I checked.
  664. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> But not the good stuff with @dropzone and such.
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  671. # [23:18] <tantek> maybe there's insufficient web developer demand for the improvements?
  672. # [23:18] <tantek> I don't see many web sites with dnd in general
  673. # [23:18] <tantek> how well does dnd work with mobile / touch interfaces?
  674. # [23:18] <tantek> (wild guess as to why people are not worrying/caring about it)
  675. # [23:19] <Hixie> yeah, i'm sure it's not a high priority
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  677. # [23:24] <gsnedders> tantek: FB uses DND on desktop, at least.
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  682. # [23:29] <tantek> gsnedders, as does G+ with the whole goofy circles thing
  683. # [23:30] <tantek> DnD people from one circle to another etc.
  684. # [23:30] <tantek> but of course none of that is available on mobile / touch / iOS etc.
  685. # [23:30] <tantek> so it's … meh
  686. # [23:30] <Hixie> i don't understand why we couldn't make dnd work on mobile
  687. # [23:30] <Hixie> but yeah
  688. # [23:31] <tantek> Hixie - ask the UI/UX/designer people
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  690. # [23:32] <tantek> and I agree - there's something odd how mobile touch UIs are all about "swipe this and swipe that" but no drag & drop
  691. # [23:32] <tantek> which seem like almost the same physical gesture
  692. # [23:32] <tantek> is it the difference of having a specific hit-target to start swiping from?
  693. # [23:33] <tantek> and don't mobile games use swiping from specific hit-targets?
  694. # [23:33] <tantek> not sure why it hasn't made its way into web UIs
  695. # [23:33] <tantek> just observing that it hasn't
  696. # [23:35] <gsnedders> tantek: Does FB not serve the desktop version to tablets? On the other hand, you can't drag files around on iOS/Android…
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  698. # [23:41] <Hixie> it took me about 3 minutes to work out that "R" in this bug means "are". https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9482
  699. # [23:41] <Hixie> and the guy probably saved all of 200ms.
  700. # [23:41] <Hixie> NOT A WIN.
  701. # [23:41] <Hixie> tantek: there's drag-and-drop in some mobile stuff, e.g. bad piggies uses it.
  702. # [23:42] <gsnedders> I feel like I should give a witty response to that in txtspk, but I don't think my knowledge of the language is good enough.
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  706. # [23:45] <tantek> and here I thought R was a programming language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_%28programming_language%29
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  708. # [23:52] <jwalden> somebody tell zcorpan if they see him before I do that implementation of new Date(-0) has two representations *only* so that implementations can store dates, internally, as either an int64_t or a double; SpiderMonkey stores internally as double but adds 0 in TimeClip so -0 doesn't have weird behavior; for any implementation using double representation it's easy to look like int64_t, but...
  709. # [23:52] <jwalden> ...probably far harder the other way; thus mandating +0 behavior is probably the thing the most people'd be compatible with; I can't think of a good reason to support this difference at the hardware level -- anyone using double representation can do +0 to pretend to be int64_t-represented, and implementations have to have double capabilities to represent math generally, so I don't see why...
  710. # [23:52] <jwalden> ...mandating as-if-by-int64_t would be prevented by hardware issues
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  713. # Session Close: Tue Mar 19 00:00:00 2013

The end :)