/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-03-20 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Don't you want to escape *all* the \ characters, regardless of what they code for?
  14. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> /\n/ selects a newline, after all. It's a valid escape sequence.
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  51. # [01:44] <zewt> i seem to spend a depressing amount of time on both lists trying to convince people that interop matters
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  122. # [06:01] <Hixie> MikeSmith: please don't change the URL field of WHATWG bugs, our pipeline uses that field for the spec annotations
  123. # [06:04] <Hixie> oh nevermind
  124. # [06:04] <Hixie> i was misreading the bugmail
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  126. # [06:04] <Hixie> this is old stuff
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  130. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ok, well, I'll avoid changing it from now on anyway
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  188. # [09:43] <zcorpan> why doesn't ImageBitmap have width/height attributes?
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  213. # [11:03] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: yes, maybe. though an escaped character that doesn't need to be escaped maybe shouldn't be escaped in .source? haven't tested that
  214. # [11:05] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: /\n/ is indeed what we want when doing e.g. eval('var re = /' + new RegExp('\n').source + '/'); (instead of getting a literal newline there which would result in an error)
  215. # [11:07] <hsivonen> It's uncool that Google+ has a different URL space for desktop Firefox and for Firefox for Android
  216. # [11:08] <hsivonen> if you use a desktop URL on mobile, you have to tap through an ad for the G+ Android app and then get redirected to the mobile URL
  217. # [11:08] <hsivonen> if you use a mobile URL on desktop, you don't get redirected to desktop UI and URL
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  222. # [11:16] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
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  227. # [11:35] <zcorpan> it seems opera/chrome/firefox didn't bother implementing this part of structured clone:
  228. # [11:35] <zcorpan> If input is an Array object
  229. # [11:35] <zcorpan> Let output be a newly constructed empty Array object whose length is equal to the length of input.
  230. # [11:35] <zcorpan> Note: This means that the length of sparse arrays is preserved.
  231. # [11:35] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2170
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  255. # [13:30] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  256. # [13:36] <hsivonen> I really need to find time for validator stuff. I'm so behind the times. On Encoding Standard and everything else.
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  261. # [13:47] <hsivonen> hmm. what's the content population that was analyzed for https://meaningless-stats.appspot.com/global ?
  262. # [13:48] <hsivonen> ooh. it scrapes the DOM in Chrome rather than the source
  263. # [13:48] <hsivonen> and its users probably have Gmail open all the time
  264. # [13:49] <hsivonen> that would explain the differences between the ARIA numbers between slightlyoff's and Steve's stats
  265. # [13:50] * Joins: Badreddin (~Nur@189.192.155.69)
  266. # [13:53] <hsivonen> I wonder how much was lost in minuting regarding Jeff Jaffe's juxtapositioning of "security" and "DRM" http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-tagmem-minutes.html
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  269. # [14:03] <slightlyoff> hsivonen: my stats are super skewed right now. Need many more users before they become statistically significant
  270. # [14:05] <slightlyoff> hsivonen: but yes, generally it should turn up quite a bit more than a surface skim (what most crawlers do) will.
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  273. # [14:12] * hsivonen notes a job title "innovation architect"
  274. # [14:13] * hsivonen wonder if the TAG is envious of Innovation Architecture. Seems cooler than mere Technical Architectur.
  275. # [14:13] <annevk> https://meaningless-stats.appspot.com/about wut?
  276. # [14:14] * darobin hsivonen: I think that as Architecture Astronauts they're unlikely to be jealous of anyone
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  278. # [14:16] <darobin> those stats look like they're considering SVG content as custom elements
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  280. # [14:18] <hsivonen> why does this press release append Google Widevine to a list of analytics services? http://www.brightcove.com/en/company/press/brightcove-launches-native-player-solution-premium-video-apps-apple-ios-google-android-devices
  281. # [14:19] * Quits: Masklinn (~textual@109.89.134.164) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  282. # [14:21] <hsivonen> I wonder if it means that Brightcove's SDK contains a DRM component from Widevine but the person writing the press release doesn't bother to categorize name dropping
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  286. # [14:23] <hsivonen> how does one get to blog on a community group blog?
  287. # [14:23] <hsivonen> just join the group and post away?
  288. # [14:24] <hsivonen> or is there some more vetting involved?
  289. # [14:29] <hsivonen> whoa. looks like the WordPress posting UI is available to me, too.
  290. # [14:29] <manu-db> hsivonen: yeah, I think you just join the group - I can create a new post for every group I'm a part of.
  291. # [14:29] <slightlyoff> annevk: that's hipster-ipsum
  292. # [14:29] <slightlyoff> annevk: will fix
  293. # [14:29] <hsivonen> manu-db: ok
  294. # [14:29] <annevk> hehe
  295. # [14:30] <manu-db> hsivonen: Actually, you can create a new post for any group - but you can only put it's status as "pending review"
  296. # [14:30] <manu-db> an admin actually has to come along and approve the post for the group (I'm guessing it has to be one of the group chairs)
  297. # [14:30] <slightlyoff> annevk: http://hipsteripsum.me/
  298. # [14:31] <annevk> this amuses me
  299. # [14:32] <slightlyoff> annevk: which?
  300. # [14:32] <manu-db> hsivonen: Scratch that - I just published something to the RWW main page and I'm just a member of that group...
  301. # [14:33] <annevk> slightlyoff: your link
  302. # [14:33] <slightlyoff> the "beer me" button mad me LOL the first time I saw it
  303. # [14:33] <manu-db> hsivonen: So, basically you can pwn the blog of any group you join... minor security issue there... :)
  304. # [14:33] <slightlyoff> fucking hipsters = )
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  307. # [14:40] <darobin> manu-db: it's not a security issue, CGs are designed to be open
  308. # [14:40] <darobin> obviously, that does open up the possibly of someone going on a stupidity rampage
  309. # [14:40] <darobin> but to date, that hasn't happened
  310. # [14:40] <darobin> (we have mailing lists for that :)
  311. # [14:44] <manu-db> darobin: things tend not to be a security issue until somebody abuses the hell out of it. I can think of an automated attack that would have one wordpress account sign up, join all the W3C groups and (using the XML RPC API or WebDriver) delete every blog post from every community group. :)
  312. # [14:45] <SimonSapin> darobin: is there some kind of revision history on blogs, in case one is vandalized? (although I don’t expect that to happen)
  313. # [14:45] <darobin> yeah, that might indeed be possible
  314. # [14:45] <manu-db> seems like a simple way to prevent that would be to require publication/deletion of any article to be handled by a chair of the group...
  315. # [14:45] <darobin> I'm pretty sure we have at the very least backups of everything
  316. # [14:45] <manu-db> but I don't care enough about it to make a fuss :)
  317. # [14:45] <darobin> manu-db: if you want process, we have CGs for that
  318. # [14:45] <darobin> seriously, CGs are made to be open and built on trust
  319. # [14:45] <manu-db> CGs? or WGs?
  320. # [14:45] <darobin> WGs (above)
  321. # [14:46] <SimonSapin> I don’t think we should worry too much about preventing this, but being able to *revert* it might be good
  322. # [14:46] <darobin> we have means to revert, I don't know how convenient they are, but they exist
  323. # [14:46] <manu-db> darobin: It's not about trusting folks in the CG... it's about trusting everybody on the Web (which is a bad thing to do)
  324. # [14:46] <darobin> in any case, no problem to report in something like 18months
  325. # [14:46] <darobin> which isn't to say that it won't happen, but I like the openness, even at the cost of risk
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  327. # [14:47] <darobin> manu-db: but that's the point: people in the CG should be self-selected from everyone on the Web
  328. # [14:47] <darobin> and yes, that includes bad people
  329. # [14:47] <karlcow> sigh "JJ: example 1: in the press, the Chinese governments has been running an operation to go through the web and attack information resources around the web." — http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-tagmem-minutes.html
  330. # [14:47] <manu-db> darobin: I'm a security guy at heart - I just see an unnecessary security problem here... that's all. :)
  331. # [14:47] <darobin> openness breed good faith
  332. # [14:47] <manu-db> yeah, just look at 4chan!
  333. # [14:48] <manu-db> and chatroulette
  334. # [14:48] <darobin> manu-db: I know, but same as for wikis
  335. # [14:48] <darobin> chatroulette is full of good faith!
  336. # [14:48] <manu-db> most good wikis are heavily watched for spam (which is a constant)
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  338. # [14:48] <manu-db> re: chatroulette ... and furries!
  339. # [14:48] <darobin> I think we actually have tools for spam tracking on the CG system
  340. # [14:49] <darobin> W3C has a fairly heavy antispam infrastructure overall — we get A LOT of it
  341. # [14:50] <hsivonen> fwiw, I didn't see anything that should not have been posted. I was just curious if Dale Cruse has some chair-ish powers and if so with what affiliation
  342. # [14:50] <karlcow> Let me guess. US government never never ever hacks other countries systems?
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  344. # [14:50] <hsivonen> karlcow: I'd be more curious to hear people who were there clarify the "security" and "DRM" juxtaposition
  345. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the validator I have a couple of big patches in need of landing that I hope you can find time to review soon. One is for the message-filtering feature, and the other is for the show-outline feature.
  346. # [14:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do I have requests in my email that I've failed to address?
  347. # [14:52] <karlcow> hsivonen: the thing which bothers is the use of "consent manufacturing" information for justifying something.
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  349. # [14:53] <karlcow> talking about validators I wonder who is in charge of feed-validator these days.
  350. # [14:54] <hsivonen> karlcow: is Sam not in charge?
  351. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no I've not sent them to you for review yet because I didn't want to bomb them on you if you were already deluged with day-job work, and have you feel like you needed to get to them right away
  352. # [14:54] <karlcow> yeah maybe.
  353. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but I can send them to you and you can just get to them whenever you have time. They're enhancements and nobody else is specifically waiting on them, so there's no rush to land them.
  354. # [14:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: please do send them. I'll try not to be terrible about review schedule this time
  355. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> karlcow: I think it's been a very long time since anybody has been working on the feed validator
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  357. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, will do
  358. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> karlcow: same for the main W3C validator. Ville was semi-active on it for a while but went quiet a couple years ago.
  359. # [14:58] * karlcow found https://github.com/rubys/feedvalidator/issues/7
  360. # [14:58] <hsivonen> so what are the top validator issues I should look at? 1) Reviews for MikeSmith, 2) Whine about lack of encoding declaration even if everything is ASCII, 3) Encoding Standard-compliant label handling, 4) ???
  361. # [14:59] <karlcow> MikeSmith: yes. I have seen some commits yesterday though.
  362. # [14:59] <hsivonen> 4) Make a parser release with the XOM null pointer fix in it
  363. # [14:59] <karlcow> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/markup-validator/summary
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  367. # [15:05] <hsivonen> 5) Make HTML4 validation never activate by default
  368. # [15:07] <annevk> hsivonen: complain about Polyglot Markup
  369. # [15:07] <annevk> </troll>
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  371. # [15:07] <annevk> hsivonen: Validate HTTP headers?
  372. # [15:07] <annevk> hsivonen: e.g. people seem to misuse CORS headers
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  374. # [15:08] <hsivonen> annevk: good idea. that would be dependent on upgrading the Commons HttpClient
  375. # [15:08] <hsivonen> which is a big patch. I should finish it
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  377. # [15:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so I see you improved IANA charset stuff 10 days ago. Any objections to ditching the IANA data and using the Encoding Standard?
  378. # [15:11] <hsivonen> did Hixie already edit the spec accordingly?
  379. # [15:15] <hsivonen> annevk: is your build script for munging encoding.json into the table that's in the spec?
  380. # [15:15] * Joins: gavinc (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name)
  381. # [15:16] <hsivonen> ...open source and available?
  382. # [15:16] <annevk> hsivonen: I run a script and copy and paste
  383. # [15:17] <hsivonen> annevk: is the script open source and available?
  384. # [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen: the label table is https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/blob/master/tools-label-table.py
  385. # [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen: generating the indexes is https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/blob/master/index.py
  386. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no objections to ditching IANA and using the Encoding standard. Good riddance. That fix I made was just a band-aid to help some people who had run into problems with local installs due to IANA changing the format of the registry from plain-text to XML.
  387. # [15:18] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  388. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> I think that's the biggest priority among the items on your list -- #3
  389. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> after that, I think we should get around to 5) Make HTML4 validation never activate by default
  390. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> as a priority
  391. # [15:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
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  404. # [15:53] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  406. # [15:55] <Steve____> hixie: re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Feb/0103.html w3c validator now implements <main> validation as per HTML 5.1
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  415. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: did you see my ping yesterday bout the <decorator> spec?
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  421. # [16:13] <hsivonen> annevk: hmm. so "replacement" should not be accepted as a valid encoding name by validators, right?
  422. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> wow Kevin Lynch left Adobe
  423. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> and moved to Apple
  424. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> that's pretty big
  425. # [16:16] <hsivonen> CTO?
  426. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> yeah
  427. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> good one, too
  428. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> moved to a VP position at Apple
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  430. # [16:18] <hsivonen> what should the validator say when iso-2022-cn or replacement is used where an encoding label is expected?
  431. # [16:18] <hsivonen> same as in the case of an unrecognized label?
  432. # [16:19] <hsivonen> I guess so
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  436. # [16:27] <annevk> hsivonen: only utf-8 really...
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  443. # [16:38] <zewt> gah, second time i've been bit by this bizarre behavior in ios webkit where having a click handler at all (even one that does nothing) has side-effects
  444. # [16:38] <zewt> confusing as hell
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  456. # [16:59] <zewt> uhh, what the hell?
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  461. # [17:00] <zewt> i hope i'm going insane, because it seems like in ios webkit, if you click an element, capturing event listeners on the document aren't fired unless a click event handler exists on the actual element you're clicking
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  465. # [17:00] <zewt> it's like it's not firing the event at all unless a click handler exists on the element itself
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  477. # [17:16] <tobie> zewt: http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2010/09/click_event_del.html
  478. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: nice work on the encodings support. I'll push it out to the w3c validator today
  479. # [17:18] <zewt> sure is nice to have hours wasted by multiple horrible incompetent hacks inside apple
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  482. # [17:18] <zewt> can't work around it by putting an onclick handler on the element since that has side-effects (which, at the most fundamental design level of events, it shouldn't)
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  484. # [17:18] <zewt> so i guess i'll have to work around it using touch events directly (which don't seem to have this problem)
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  486. # [17:21] <zewt> (which throws the hypothesis of this being an optimization out the window; touchmove is fired orders of magnitude more often)
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  489. # [17:39] <darobin> gotta love ppk
  490. # [17:39] <darobin> 's comparison to Netscape 3
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  493. # [17:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah cool, what does the encoding support do?
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  497. # [17:45] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: no, I didn't! was it awesome?
  498. # [17:48] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: there's no one working on decorators spec now. If someone volunteers to edit, I'd be happy to help.
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  524. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: I wonder if Dominic might be interested?
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  527. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: I can talk to him about it after I get back home (I'm in Indiana on a personal visit for another week)
  528. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> annevk: the encoding support currently just restricts the recognized charset encoding values to those that the Encoding standard recognizes (instead of to all that's in the IANA registry)
  529. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> it does not yet emit an error message for documents that use a value other than UTF-8
  530. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> I don't know if hsivonen intentionally avoided having it do that or if it's something we can plan to add
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  533. # [18:21] <annevk> sounds good
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  542. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw I'm happy to add fonts to platform.html5.org but dunno which spec to add
  543. # [18:39] <annevk> MikeSmith: I meant for http://platform.html5.org/history/ really
  544. # [18:39] <annevk> MikeSmith: I was trying to figure out when we added them to the platform (I still don't know)
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  546. # [18:40] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: which Dominic?
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  549. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: clooney
  550. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: ↑
  551. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: ah ok. well, there's a lot of stuff missing still from that page. Like, all of CSS3. I been hoping somebody would take an interest in adding that and other stuff
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  627. # [21:15] <Hixie> can anyone work out what is wrong with the example that this bug refers to? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19547
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  673. # [22:30] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Could it be that that person expects "row" to apply to the left, as well?
  674. # [22:30] <GPHemsley> Otherwise, I have no idea
  675. # [22:30] <Hixie> hmmmm, could be
  676. # [22:31] <Hixie> well, spec seems clear that that's an incorrect interpretation, so i guess i'll just leave it as NEEDSINFO
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  683. # [22:48] <Yuhong> I found an IE9 info leak for ASLR bypass just by looking at this bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16757#c10
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The end :)