/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-03-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 26 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  22. # [00:34] <MikeSmith> so I see the definition of valid e-mail address changed
  23. # [00:34] * MikeSmith tries to remember if the validator is actually checking that
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  30. # [00:54] <Hixie_> http://html5.clearboth.org/spec.html o_O
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  32. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> That's... a lot of work.
  33. # [00:57] <Hixie_> i suspect it's machine-transalted.
  34. # [00:57] <Hixie_> translated.
  35. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> Likely.
  36. # [00:58] <Hixie_> why does http://www.w3.org/TR/webstorage/ have a disproportionate share of the source of bug spam?
  37. # [00:58] <Hixie_> weird
  38. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7771&to=7772 seems like a pretty bing change in behavior. Or not?
  39. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> the appcache change you just checked in
  40. # [00:59] <Hixie_> it's a change.
  41. # [00:59] <Hixie_> not a huuuge change.
  42. # [00:59] <Hixie_> all it does is switch the order of two steps in the navigate algorithm
  43. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> ok
  44. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> didn't come from a bug or comment?
  45. # [01:00] <Hixie_> should only affect people who have appcaches with a manifest saying they are in prefer-online mode, where some of the resources they explicitly cache happen to have URLs listed in their fallback namespaces
  46. # [01:00] <Hixie_> it was something i happened to come across when fixing another bug
  47. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> OK
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  49. # [01:01] <Hixie_> seriously, why is /webstorage/ such a big source of spam
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  53. # [01:10] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Sure. Could you file a bug, if there isn't already one?
  54. # [01:14] <Hixie_> sure
  55. # [01:14] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: (I know there's already a bug about clarifying the definitions of the various parts.)
  56. # [01:15] <Hixie_> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21393
  57. # [01:16] <GPHemsley> thanks
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  63. # [01:19] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: FYI, when that change happens, you may have to update references to algorithms. (I think they use "media type".)
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  65. # [01:20] <Hixie_> yeah
  66. # [01:20] <Hixie_> just reassign the bug to me if there's something to change on my end
  67. # [01:21] <GPHemsley> Did your recent commit change all sections that reference mimesniff?
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  70. # [01:24] <Hixie_> it changed all sections that reference [MIMESNIFF]
  71. # [01:24] <Hixie_> i may have some where i forgot the reference, in which case i missed them
  72. # [01:24] <Hixie_> i definitely have cases where the references are indirect through the first one that mentions MIMESNIFF, i hope they're ok
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  75. # [01:27] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Just so I know, whose responsibility is it to check on that? ;)
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  77. # [01:29] <Hixie_> my spec, my responsibility
  78. # [01:29] <Hixie_> but if you see any, let me know :-)
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  82. # [01:39] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Would s/media type/MIME type/ be acceptable, as far as you're concerned?
  83. # [01:40] <zewt> calling mime types "media type" seems like calling urls "uris" and megabytes "mibibytes", heh
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  86. # [01:41] <GPHemsley> zewt: We're past that discussion already.
  87. # [01:41] <zewt> javascript "ecmascript"
  88. # [01:41] <zewt> GPHemsley: not until people stop doing them :P
  89. # [01:41] <GPHemsley> zewt: Well, I meant in this context.
  90. # [01:42] <GPHemsley> although your latter two examples have sufficient distinction to warrant separate terms, I think
  91. # [01:42] <zewt> they're all things where somebody took a well-understood term, went "we need a new term for some anal reason!", resulting in more confusion than any conceivable benefit. heh
  92. # [01:43] <zewt> (or some close variant, of course)
  93. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> the binary prefix issue was more than just "some anal reason"
  94. # [01:44] <GPHemsley> and there does exist http://javascript.spec.whatwg.org/
  95. # [01:44] <zewt> yeah, that's trying to help hard drive marketing departments justify lying
  96. # [01:44] <zewt> also, the idea that anyone would seriously expect me to say "gibibytes" out loud with a straight face is pretty legitimately hilarious
  97. # [01:44] <GPHemsley> (which may or may not fall under your claims of justifications)
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  99. # [01:45] <GPHemsley> actually, no, the prefixes maintain the distinction betwen 1000 and 1024
  100. # [01:45] <GPHemsley> it's just that now, when people use the SI prefixes, they actually mean the SI meanings
  101. # [01:45] <GPHemsley> instead of the binary ones
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  106. # [01:49] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: fine by me, but obviously as with any such thing check that the result is sound :-)
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  109. # [01:50] <GPHemsley> I think it is; I don't reference CSS, and I didn't really use "MIME type" before.
  110. # [01:53] <Hixie_> i just mean make sure you don't have anything that says "And if you check the <em>media</em> type..." or "the second letter of the term "media type" is "e"" or some such
  111. # [01:53] <Hixie_> obviously those examples are silly
  112. # [01:53] <Hixie_> but you know what i mean
  113. # [01:53] <Hixie_> gotta go
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  115. # [01:55] <GPHemsley> ah, hmm... the only conflict might be wrt the terminology discussion about the various parts: does "MIME type portion" make the same amount of sense as "media type portion"?
  116. # [01:55] <GPHemsley> perhaps not, but that terminology should change anyway
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  118. # [01:58] <GPHemsley> of course, there may now be a question: should the standard be called "MIME Type Sniffing"?
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  122. # [02:09] <stevefaulkner> any known implementations of inert attribute?
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  125. # [02:12] <falken_> stevefaulkner: i'm working on it for webkit, but it's not really done
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  127. # [02:13] <stevefaulkner> falken_: thanks, what about the dialog element?
  128. # [02:13] <falken_> stevefaulkner: yes, i'm also working on that... something is landed but it also has a lot of work still
  129. # [02:14] <stevefaulkner> falken_: cool! you have a bug number?
  130. # [02:15] <falken_> stevefaulkner: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84635
  131. # [02:15] <stevefaulkner> falken_: thanks!
  132. # [02:15] <falken_> stevefaulkner: np
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  198. # [05:44] <sangwhan> paul_irish: Yes, I saw this: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73885 - but there is no rationale, just hard facts. Was curious about the reasoning, apart from it's possibly the lowest hanging fruit.
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  373. # [12:04] <annevk> Hmm, what the best list to discuss new Web Notifications features?
  374. # [12:04] <annevk> Or Notifications API features, really. Now public-web-notification has arisen from the death...
  375. # [12:07] <smaug____> hmm, I don't follow public-web-notifications
  376. # [12:07] <smaug____> I think
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  398. # [12:40] <annevk> Man, CSP specifications are a mess...
  399. # [12:40] <annevk> If the security crowd gives you that, you gotta wonder...
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  443. # [14:04] <hsivonen> how should v.nu pharse the whine about non-UTF-8 encodings?
  444. # [14:04] <hsivonen> how about "Legacy encoding \u201C" + encoding.getCanonName() + "\u201D used. To avoid data loss in form submissions and data corruption in the handling of non-ASCII characters in query strings in URL, documents should use UTF-8." ?
  445. # [14:04] <hsivonen> s/URL/URLs/
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  447. # [14:05] <jgraham> That sounds over-technical to me
  448. # [14:05] <jgraham> Specifically "data corruption in the handling of non-ASCII characters in query strings in URL"
  449. # [14:06] <hsivonen> hmm. and the rationale would be untrue for UTF-16
  450. # [14:06] <hsivonen> and partially untrue for GB18030
  451. # [14:07] <hsivonen> just "Legacy encoding \u201C" + encoding.getCanonName() + "\u201D used. Documents should use UTF-8."
  452. # [14:07] <hsivonen> then?
  453. # [14:09] <jgraham> Yeah, if you start getting questions about it then add more information
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  456. # [14:11] <hsivonen> old copyright years in license headers make me feel old and unproductive
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  460. # [14:21] <annevk> Maybe at some point error messages should have links to more information?
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  463. # [14:23] <hsivonen> whoa. wchen landed <template>. the first time I have a collision in the htmlparser repo a couple of minutes after hg pull -u
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  468. # [14:38] <hsivonen> UTF-8 whine deployed: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Ftest%2Fmoz%2Fcharset-menu%2Fchild-6-meta-parent-bomless-utf-16-child-with-http.htm16be
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  471. # [14:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: nice
  472. # [14:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: do you plan on removing the messages about preferredness?
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  474. # [14:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes, but I'd rather back it up with Hixie's spec text instead of willfully violating the spec on my own
  475. # [14:57] <hsivonen> so I'll work on other stuff first
  476. # [14:57] <zcorpan> ok
  477. # [14:57] <hsivonen> specifically, changing the parser to use Encoding Standard alias resolution
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  479. # [14:59] <annevk> alias -> labal
  480. # [14:59] <annevk> label even
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  491. # [15:09] <hsivonen> encodings supported by the Encoding Standard but not by OpenJDK6:
  492. # [15:10] <hsivonen> hz-gb-2312
  493. # [15:10] <hsivonen> iso-8859-10
  494. # [15:10] <hsivonen> iso-8859-14
  495. # [15:10] <hsivonen> iso-8859-16
  496. # [15:10] <hsivonen> iso-8859-8-i
  497. # [15:10] <hsivonen> macintosh
  498. # [15:10] <hsivonen> replacement
  499. # [15:10] <hsivonen> x-mac-cyrillic
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  501. # [15:10] <hsivonen> x-user-defined
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  503. # [15:10] <hsivonen> annevk: why isn't hz-gb-2312 aliased to replacement yet?
  504. # [15:11] <annevk> hsivonen: can we remove that encoding?
  505. # [15:11] <hsivonen> I hope we can but I don't know
  506. # [15:12] <odinho> jgraham: And we can't contribute pike tests back? :P Hehe. Okay :/ They are sometimes possible to transalte though. Although that is $work
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  509. # [15:18] <annevk> hsivonen: if we remove it I can update the spec
  510. # [15:19] <annevk> hsivonen: I'd prefer not going too far ahead of what impls are doing I think
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  512. # [15:20] <hsivonen> so I think I will need to make the htmlparser depend on https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/ for code generation
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  514. # [15:20] <hsivonen> what's the right way to deal with a git repo dep in a hg-based project?
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  516. # [15:21] <hsivonen> should I just put a directory called encoding in ignore and tell people who wish to rerun code generation to pull https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/ into a dir called encoding as a child dir of htmlparser?
  517. # [15:21] <hsivonen> or should I tell people to pull it as a sibling
  518. # [15:21] <hsivonen> I guess sibling is easier
  519. # [15:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: any objections to making build.py pull https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/ as a sibling of the other repos?
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  522. # [15:24] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks for having this stuff under compatible copyright terms :-)
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  524. # [15:25] <annevk> my pleasure
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  528. # [15:26] <hsivonen> annevk: do all characters in the single-byte encodings decode to the Basic Multilingual Plane?
  529. # [15:27] <annevk> afaik
  530. # [15:28] <hsivonen> great
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  537. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no objections from me
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  542. # [15:51] <zewt> are there even any legacy multibyte encodings that go outside it except for gb18030?
  543. # [15:51] <Hixie_> hsivonen: if there's something where i'm blocking you, send me a quick mail about it, i'm only barely paying attention to IRC these days due to busy "real world" stuff
  544. # [15:51] <Hixie_> (should be back able to pay full attention to stuff in june)
  545. # [15:55] <hsivonen> Hixie_: I sent email to the list. basically, allowing non-preferred labels for non-UTF-8 encodings would solve the problem. OK if I assume that?
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  547. # [15:59] <zewt> (should just use encoding labels, not encoding names, right?)
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  549. # [16:03] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i guess the logic is that now that there's a fixed set, it doesn't matter what people pick, they are always going to be treated the same?
  550. # [16:03] <Hixie_> hsivonen: i'm still a bit dubious about allowing ISO-8859-1 if you're not following the actual 8859-1 spec
  551. # [16:03] <Hixie_> hsivonen: which is the main reason the restriction was in place before
  552. # [16:03] <Hixie_> hsivonen: iirc
  553. # [16:04] <zewt> (the 8859-1 spec should be updated to just include the win-1252 characters and end one little bit of lunacy, heh)
  554. # [16:04] <Hixie_> well that's kind what encoding.spec.whatwg.org does
  555. # [16:05] <hsivonen> Hixie_: well, it's not particularly useful for authors to be told to change a label that works to another that works
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  558. # [16:07] <Hixie_> hsivonen: won't there be software that gets it wrong? e.g. anything using iconv presumably doesn't handle 8859-1 "correctly" if you're using win1252 specials, right?
  559. # [16:07] <zewt> hsivonen: hmm, yeah, seems like noise that would make the encoding-related warnings that are actually useful stand out less (declare your encoding; use utf-8)
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  561. # [16:10] <hsivonen> Hixie_: oh if you care about non-browser software that's also Encoding Standard-incompliant, then the legacy labels might indeed be a problem
  562. # [16:10] <zewt> maybe that's not a big issue as long as it's at a lower level of warnings (not a big angry red alert)
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  564. # [16:10] <Hixie_> gotta go
  565. # [16:11] <Hixie_> if you decide it's not something we should care about, update the list thread accordingly and say in that mail that i said that i'd do whatever you did
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  596. # [17:13] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/ gives me an error
  597. # [17:13] <zcorpan> "Can't connect to the database."
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  603. # [17:23] <nielsle> Are there any tools for doing something like latex page references with css3 regions? That is: Get the label of a div containing a given label and display it as text within the html-page. (I am not trying to solve a specific problem. I just wondered if it was possible)
  604. # [17:23] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  606. # [17:25] <astearns> nielsle: Nothing declarative has been decided on. You can of course use JavaScript to accomplish this now, until we agree how it can be done in CSS
  607. # [17:25] <nielsle> Thanks :)
  608. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I've pushed the parser encoding-reporting changes to the W3C service now too
  609. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: apparently some problem with W3C servers right now
  610. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> ah, db
  611. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> they working on it
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  614. # [17:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  615. # [17:31] <cwilso_> Yeah, it's making the logistics of the (just started) Web Audio FTF interesting. :) (Can't get to logistics)
  616. # [17:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think I'll implement the label and single-byte stuff from the Encoding Standard soon
  617. # [17:31] * zcorpan stumbles upon http://webdevdata.org/
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  622. # [17:37] <nimbu1> zcorpan: woah wat dat?
  623. # [17:37] <nimbu1> who is behind it?
  624. # [17:39] <miketaylr> these guys http://www.w3.org/community/webdevdata/
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  629. # [17:45] <sangwhan_> Interesting how there seems to be a Mozilla bug on "de-supporting" ISO-2022-KR while it's not supported
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  633. # [17:49] <divya> miketaylr: interesting but what data is being published dont want to download datasets to find out >:|
  634. # [17:51] <annevk> sangwhan_: it is supported for decoding
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  636. # [17:51] <annevk> hsivonen: non-browser software is also why we'd want to restrict to utf-8 though, although I guess a case can be made that most non-browser software knows how to deal with iso-8859-1 in some way
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  639. # [17:54] <sangwhan_> annevk: Ah, I assume it's still in the Gecko core for Thunderbird use?
  640. # [17:55] <annevk> Oh it is disabled now from the browser side?
  641. # [17:55] <annevk> sangwhan_: no, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=827796 is not fixed
  642. # [17:56] <sangwhan_> It could be the Opera test case I used is flawed, but it passed fine on Chrome and IE7(!)
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  645. # [17:59] <sangwhan_> Regardless, ISO-2022-KR should go
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  647. # [18:02] <SteveF> zcorpan: webdevdata is stuff i have collected, the one from dec is expanded (35000) home pages from top 50000
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  655. # [18:12] <SteveF> <main> element now supported in Chrome stable version 26
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  663. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> TIL Hixie_ speaks French.
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  665. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> Like a ten-year-old, apparently
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  672. # [18:27] <GPHemsley> Hmm... I'm thinking the term "MIME type with parameters" will prove to be problematic with other definitions used in mimesniff
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  676. # [18:29] <GPHemsley> e.g. I'll have to use "valid MIME type with parameters" everywhere I currently use "valid MIME type"
  677. # [18:29] <GPHemsley> which seems unnecessarily unwieldy
  678. # [18:30] <GPHemsley> on the other hand, though, I never seem to do anything with parameters
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  681. # [18:31] <GPHemsley> oh, except in the unfinished "parse a MIME type" algorithm
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  684. # [18:31] <GPHemsley> hmm
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  686. # [18:32] <GPHemsley> ah, the parameters are also important for the "supplied MIME type" as it relates to the "MIME type sniffing algorithm"
  687. # [18:33] <GPHemsley> but perhaps I will change "MIME type portion" (formerly "media type portion") to "MIME type without parameters"
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  699. # [18:52] <zewt> i've never viewed parameters as part of a mime type in the first place; mime type as just "text/plain" and parameters metadata associated with it
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  724. # [19:34] <gsnedders> So how long, how FF includes OdinMonkey, before someone deliberately starts serving code that takes an impractical amount of time to compile, given they're still doing on-thread compilation?
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  727. # [19:37] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: is there a bug open on this?
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  731. # [19:39] <Ms2ger> <dvander> (1) it's parallel and (2) that would be a problem in most browsers, for normal js, prior to fx 20
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  735. # [19:40] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Ah, last I'd seen making it parallel was still to-do. And the only thing is it's far easier to do with AOT complication.
  736. # [19:40] <gsnedders> Yes, you *can* still hit it in other borwsers doing JIT compilation.
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  836. # [23:25] <rillian> what should document.createElement('track').track return?
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  855. # Session Close: Wed Mar 27 00:00:00 2013

The end :)