/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-04-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 05 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:03] <annevk> think so
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  52. # [01:17] <boblet_> hixie: yt? would like to get your take on del vs s
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  55. # [01:21] <boblet_> I’m unsure how I’d use/style them on the same page, and I’m also wondering what other use cases for s apart from discounts
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  59. # [01:27] <zewt> whenever i'm working in java i feel like i'm in school with a hall monitor looking over my shoulder
  60. # [01:27] <zewt> "unreachable code? that violates school rules!!! FATAL ERROR"
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  110. # [03:25] <Hixie_> boblet_: here briefly now
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  128. # [03:52] <kochi> MikeSmith: yt?
  129. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> kochi: います。
  130. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> mission accomplished
  131. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> for publication
  132. # [03:53] <kochi> hello!
  133. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> hey man
  134. # [03:53] <kochi> thanks for your help
  135. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> I didn't do anything!
  136. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> Art did it all
  137. # [03:54] <kochi> BTW, we still list Bono-san's name on the doc
  138. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> oh
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  140. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> we can move him to former editor
  141. # [03:54] <kochi> What is the convention for ex-member?
  142. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> usually we just add a "Former editor(s)" heading after the "Editors" heading
  143. # [03:57] <kochi> any example spec which has that?
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  146. # [03:59] <kochi> at least, his email address is unreachable now
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  153. # [04:06] <kochi> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-sparql11-query-20130321/ has "Previous Editor"
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  155. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> kochi: yeah "Previous Editor" is fine too
  156. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> there really are not rules and no strong convention
  157. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> there really are no rules and no strong convention
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  160. # [04:12] <kochi> i see, thanks. I'll follow the "previous editor" school.
  161. # [04:13] <kochi> I'll look into respec whether it supports anything like that.
  162. # [04:14] <kochi> As it is published anyway (Apr.4 version), no way to modify the editor part?
  163. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> kochi: there is a way
  164. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> which is, I edit it in place
  165. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> you want me to do that now?
  166. # [04:17] <kochi> yes, if it's possible!
  167. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> ok
  168. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> gimme a minutes
  169. # [04:17] <kochi> thanks a lot!!
  170. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> kochi: ok, done - http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ime-api-20130404/
  171. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> kochi: btw, also nice to see good feedback from Microsoft
  172. # [04:20] <kochi> Thanks!
  173. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> or rather, the promise of some more feedback upcoming
  174. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> from Travis
  175. # [04:21] <kochi> BTW, hbono at google.com is already unreacheable so could you also remove the address? I think the company name is fine because he belonged to it then.
  176. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> they clearly seem quite interested in teh API and planning to implement it
  177. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> ok, will do
  178. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> do you knwo where Bono-san went to?
  179. # [04:22] <kochi> I heard some rumor, but can't talk about it here ;)
  180. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> ok
  181. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> yeah I seem to remember hearing the rumor too but can't recall the details
  182. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> anyway I like him and hope he's doing well wherever he is
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  184. # [04:24] <kochi> I hope so, too. He should be performing quite awesome wherever he is
  185. # [04:26] <kochi> re Microsoft's feedback, yes, they seem definitely interested.
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  187. # [04:29] <kochi> also I'm waiting Nakano-san's feedback.
  188. # [04:29] <kochi> but he seems quite busy.
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  194. # [04:41] <kochi> MikeSmith: it seems my name is deleted in the "Editors" section :)
  195. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> oops
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  198. # [04:52] <kochi> MikeSmith: Thanks, it looks good now. :) :)
  199. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> great
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  264. # [08:04] <heycam> MikeSmith, ping
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  269. # [08:12] <heycam> MikeSmith, (nm, I have mailed sysreq)
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  275. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> heycam: ok but I'm still happy to check up on it if you want
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  277. # [08:18] <heycam> MikeSmith, oh I just wanted to check if it was possible to manually allows mails from a particular address to public-svg-wg
  278. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> sure it is
  279. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> can do it right now
  280. # [08:19] <heycam> MikeSmith, oh great. would you be able to add cam+svgwgrepo@mcc.id.au
  281. # [08:19] <heycam> I changed the svgwg.org repo hooks to use that address some time ago, not realising that it stopped the commit notifications going to the list :/
  282. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> h
  283. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> ah
  284. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> heycam: ok, done now
  285. # [08:20] <heycam> MikeSmith, great, lemme just test
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  288. # [08:28] <heycam> MikeSmith, hmm, something isn't working; http://www.pastebin.mozilla.org/2275132
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  292. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> heycam: please try it again now
  293. # [08:42] <tobie> What's the correct name to refer to JS APIs which are not part of the DOM? Is "BOM" still used?
  294. # [08:43] <tobie> Or does that make me sound real old school?
  295. # [08:43] <heycam> these days I think of BOM as byte order mark
  296. # [08:43] <heycam> but I think people used to use BOM = Browser Object Model
  297. # [08:44] <heycam> MikeSmith, seem to get the same error when talking to the smtp server
  298. # [08:44] <heycam> oh hang on
  299. # [08:44] <tobie> It's the latter I was implying, and it does sound slightly dated, doesn't it?
  300. # [08:44] <heycam> I think it does
  301. # [08:44] <heycam> MikeSmith, "250 Accepted'
  302. # [08:44] <heycam> MikeSmith, I'll try by comitting a change now...
  303. # [08:45] <tobie> mmm.
  304. # [08:45] <heycam> I'd just go with web platform apis or something… dunno if there's a good acronym for it
  305. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> I never heard of "browser object model" before
  306. # [08:46] <heycam> hey, we're free to implement whatever APIs we want: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_Object_Model
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  308. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> heycam: cool. it's like having the Driving Ace in Mille Bornes
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  310. # [08:50] * heycam doesn't know what those words mean but can look them up
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  312. # [08:50] <Ms2ger> tobie, we call those "DOM" too
  313. # [08:51] <tobie> who is "we"?
  314. # [08:51] <Ms2ger> Me
  315. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> DOM0?
  316. # [08:51] <heycam> oh yeah DOM 0, that term sounds more familiar
  317. # [08:52] <tobie> Ms2ger: You just stepped up your game another level, here.
  318. # [08:52] <Ms2ger> :D
  319. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> it seems to be what we usually call DOM0
  320. # [08:53] <tobie> Ms2ger: would you say the navigator object is part of the DOM?
  321. # [08:53] <Ms2ger> Yes
  322. # [08:53] <tobie> or really?
  323. # [08:53] <tobie> wow
  324. # [08:54] <tobie> you too, MikeSmith?
  325. # [08:54] <heycam> MikeSmith, so the mail sent from my repo hooks doesn't seem to have made it to the archives yet; neither this manual test http://www.pastebin.mozilla.org/2275183
  326. # [08:54] <tobie> Or would you say it's a DOM0 API. :D
  327. # [08:54] <Ms2ger> Its implementation lives under dom/ in Gecko :)
  328. # [08:54] <heycam> ha
  329. # [08:54] <tobie> Ms2ger: by definition, this is an implementation detail. :D
  330. # [08:55] <Ms2ger> tobie, and? :)
  331. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> heycam: yeah but I tried sending a message to the list from my own address and it doesn't seem to have made it to the list yet either
  332. # [08:55] <heycam> MikeSmith, ok, might be a delay then
  333. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> yeah
  334. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> tobie: I think DOM0 was defined as whatever the early versions of netscape navigator and IE did that wasn't later defined in a standard spec
  335. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> until HTML5 at least
  336. # [08:58] <tobie> The DOM is a modelization of the HTML contained in the page. navigator, for example, has nothing to do with this.
  337. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> yeah but it's using "DOM" loosely in this case
  338. # [08:58] <tobie> yeah
  339. # [08:58] <tobie> I'm asking because the kind folks at webplatform.org are struggling with this
  340. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> which is better than using BOM which most people have no cleue what it means in that context and it's ambiguous with BOM the byte-order-mark
  341. # [08:59] <tobie> agreed.
  342. # [09:00] <Ms2ger> Would you say that Event is part of the DOM?
  343. # [09:00] <tobie> ha
  344. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> tobie: I suggest the webplatform.org crew got with "what used to be called DOM0 but is not part of the current HTML LS and DOM (Core/4) specifications"
  345. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> *go with
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  347. # [09:00] <tobie> sounds great for a url too
  348. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> heh
  349. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> *now part of
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  351. # [09:01] <tobie> what about js apis?
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  353. # [09:02] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  354. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> tobie: "non-DOM standard JS APIs that are not a standard part of EcmaScript"
  355. # [09:07] <heycam> MikeSmith, would I have got one of those "please approve archival of your email" things to cam+svgwgrepo@mcc.id.au?
  356. # [09:07] <heycam> MikeSmith, I only just checked and allowed through cam+svgwgrepo@mcc.id.au to my address (thought it was automatic with my mail server but apparently not)
  357. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> heycam: you would and you did but I already went into the admin console and approved them for you
  358. # [09:09] <heycam> MikeSmith, aha ok.
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  362. # [09:18] <jgraham> We call those things DOM
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  364. # [09:18] <jgraham> Even though they are not the Object Model of a Document
  365. # [09:18] <jgraham> But really, if the webplatform.org people can't live with that level of confusion they need a different hobby
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  372. # [09:29] <tobie> jgraham: In truth, I'm the one having issues with that level of confusion.
  373. # [09:30] <tobie> It's terribly difficult to teach something which has awfully confusing naming.
  374. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> There's "JS", which is everything in ECMAScript and related extensions
  375. # [09:31] <Ms2ger> And then there's "DOM", which is everything defined in IDL
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  377. # [09:31] <Ms2ger> Except for Typed Arrays, those are JS too
  378. # [09:31] <heycam> MikeSmith, the mails came through. thanks a lot!
  379. # [09:31] <heycam> MikeSmith, you can close the sysreq ticket?
  380. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> heycam: yup
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  411. # [10:25] <zcorpan> krijn_: please add this to updateFilter() in the log's s.js:
  412. # [10:25] <zcorpan> krijn_: || lis[i].textContent.search(/^# \[\d\d:\d\d\] * .+ is now known as /) == 0
  413. # [10:27] <zcorpan> krijn_: maybe the other checks should also use textContent.search(/^.... instead, since sometimes people quote such a line and then it shouldn't be hidden
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  423. # [10:44] <krijn_> zcorpan: done
  424. # [10:45] <zcorpan> krijn_: thanks
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  445. # [11:26] <annevk> tobie: most of the naming should be sorted now though
  446. # [11:27] <tobie> annevk: yeah, I'm just complaining that we have no better name for describing what XHR is than: it's a DOM API.
  447. # [11:27] <annevk> tobie: I'd call it a platform API
  448. # [11:27] <annevk> or just an API really
  449. # [11:28] <tobie> so naming is sorted now...
  450. # [11:28] <tobie> but everyone uses a different nam.
  451. # [11:28] <annevk> Not really sure why TC39 keeps referring to non-DOM stuff as DOM
  452. # [11:28] <tobie> s/nam/name/
  453. # [11:29] <annevk> Yeah that's true. Some people call elements tags, and tags elements, etc.
  454. # [11:29] <tobie> So this morning I woke, wrote a page long rant on naming choice in webplatform, then doubled check my assumptions in here, trashed the email and went on with my real job.
  455. # [11:29] <tobie> s/woke/woke up/
  456. # [11:30] <tobie> s/check/checked/
  457. # [11:30] <Ms2ger> Get some more tea
  458. # [11:30] <annevk> Yeah it's bad. The continued confusion between ECMAScript and JavaScript is also annoying.
  459. # [11:30] <tobie> confusion?
  460. # [11:31] <annevk> Some say it's the same, some say JavaScript is referring in particular to Mozilla's implementation (which I think is nonsense, but you know), ...
  461. # [11:31] <Ms2ger> As opposed to JScript, eh
  462. # [11:31] <tobie> annevk: yeah, that is nonsense
  463. # [11:32] <tobie> JS == common name for ES
  464. # [11:32] <tobie> JS != ES + special Moz thingies.
  465. # [11:33] <tobie> But of course some will disagree.
  466. # [11:33] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  467. # [11:33] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  468. # [11:33] <tobie> I wish Oracle would just step in here and clarify.
  469. # [11:33] <tobie> :D
  470. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> Let's call it OracleScript
  471. # [11:34] <tobie> That sounds suprising good, actually.
  472. # [11:34] <annevk> Except for the part where it's a new name
  473. # [11:35] <tobie> OracleScript: No need to learn how to code, it will read your mind.
  474. # [11:36] <tobie> These distinctions remind me of comp.lang.javascript
  475. # [11:37] * Quits: nessy (~silviapf@124-149-71-84.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  476. # [11:38] * jgraham waits for tobie to go and clean out his brain
  477. # [11:38] <tobie> I'm certainly not going back there.
  478. # [11:38] <tobie> :)
  479. # [11:43] <annevk> ooh man, I sure hope we don't turn into a newsgroup
  480. # [11:44] <Ms2ger> That's a support forum
  481. # [11:44] <jgraham> We are already calcifying and turning into an old standards organisation, just like IETF and W3C did :)
  482. # [11:45] * Quits: vcarbune (~vcarbune@188.26.163.3) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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  484. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> We should start a new one
  485. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> Anyone up for a WHICHWG?
  486. # [11:49] <jgraham> I've always wanted WHYWG
  487. # [11:49] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-217-68-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  488. # [11:50] <darobin> WITCHWG?
  489. # [11:57] <chee> JS == common name for ES, but JS !== common name for ES
  490. # [11:57] <chee> WATWG
  491. # [11:57] <Ms2ger> jgraham, http://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5 doesn't seem to have noticed that I just pushed another commit there
  492. # [11:58] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Dunno what went wrong there
  493. # [11:58] <jgraham> But I triggered the update manually
  494. # [11:59] <Ms2ger> Great, ta
  495. # [12:01] <annevk> "The app Critic will be able to: Read your public information." hmm
  496. # [12:02] <jgraham> Yeah. That's what "public" means, really
  497. # [12:03] <jgraham> (I can't ask for fewer permissions than that)
  498. # [12:04] <jgraham> (which makes sense because I could equally get the public information by scraping github.com)
  499. # [12:04] <jgraham> (but it isn't enough permissions to do useful things like add comments to pull requests or add a "Merge Pull Request" button)
  500. # [12:04] <chee> so rly it's just saying when you log in with github you will have logged in using github
  501. # [12:05] <jgraham> It's saying you'll have logged in using github, but the app won't be able to do anything that it couldn't do even if you hadn't logged in via github and only knew your github username
  502. # [12:06] <chee> right
  503. # [12:06] <annevk> still somewhat weird that this is allowed as the app does not use TLS
  504. # [12:06] <annevk> but I guess that's no big deal, unless the app can ask for more
  505. # [12:07] <jgraham> Nothing is transmitted in the clear
  506. # [12:07] <jgraham> Well, almost nothing
  507. # [12:07] <jgraham> Your github credentials go only to github over https
  508. # [12:08] <jgraham> and the final access token is retrieved from github over https
  509. # [12:09] <jgraham> The only thing that goes in the clear is a temporary code which is tied to a secret
  510. # [12:09] <jgraham> (and the secret is never transmitted)
  511. # [12:11] <annevk> my connection to your server could be MITM'd
  512. # [12:13] <jgraham> True, but what secret information is going over that connection?
  513. # [12:15] <jgraham> I guess someone could steal a cookie and use critic as if they were you
  514. # [12:17] <webben> [re naming conventions for XHR
  515. # [12:17] <webben> what's wrong with BOM?
  516. # [12:17] <webben> (browser object model)
  517. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> Nobody uses it
  518. # [12:18] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  519. # [12:19] <jgraham> annevk: Anyway if you can suggest a sutiably inexpensive way to set up TLS I am happy to do so
  520. # [12:19] <webben> Ms2ger: "Nobody" is a bit of an exaggeration.
  521. # [12:19] <darobin> and BOM already means something else
  522. # [12:19] <annevk> webben: means Byte Order Mark
  523. # [12:19] <darobin> something nasty, too
  524. # [12:19] <webben> e.g. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms952643.aspx
  525. # [12:19] * annevk goes to urbandictionary
  526. # [12:20] <Ms2ger> Exaggeration is my middle name
  527. # [12:20] <webben> yeah confusion with Byte Order Mark is suboptimal
  528. # [12:20] <darobin> annevk: no, by nasty I really did just mean Byte Order Mark
  529. # [12:20] <jgraham> I thought "Byte Order Mark" was the "something nasty"
  530. # [12:20] <annevk> darobin: aaah, you had me excited
  531. # [12:20] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-217-68-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  532. # [12:20] <annevk> "Word that is interchangable with bro, dude, man, friend, buddy, pal, mon, bredrin, n*igga etc used in the trap."
  533. # [12:20] <darobin> annevk: funny that, I thought that Byte Order Mark would actually get you more excited than something saucy from urbandict :)
  534. # [12:21] <annevk> Yo bom, BOM that resource.
  535. # [12:21] <darobin> maybe we should suggest to Unicode that they rename it to Byte Reading Order
  536. # [12:22] <annevk> BRO that shit up
  537. # [12:22] <darobin> extra bonus: "Dude, have you check the Bro Code on that file?"
  538. # [12:22] <darobin> *checked
  539. # [12:22] <annevk> I checked the BRO code and it was totally authoritative of my behavior.
  540. # [12:23] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-217-68-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  542. # [12:23] <darobin> the BRO code says I'm Big Endian, baby, uh huh!
  543. # [12:23] <annevk> I think this is much more useful use of my time than trying to come up with a note for Authoritative Metadata, which incidentally is about the same thing.
  544. # [12:23] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
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  546. # [12:24] <jgraham> I'm not sure that authorative metadata is a good use of anyone's time (but don't take my word for it)
  547. # [12:24] <darobin> echo "Authoritative Metadata is just evil." > note-to-tag.txt
  548. # [12:24] <darobin> there, done it for you bro
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  554. # [12:34] * Ms2ger wonders if anybody plans to implement MediaController
  555. # [12:35] * jgraham wanders lonley as a cloud
  556. # [12:41] <annevk> darobin: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect-20130405.html
  557. # [12:41] <annevk> darobin: lets see what they say
  558. # [12:43] <darobin> annevk: you just added the warning?
  559. # [12:43] <annevk> darobin: yeah
  560. # [12:43] <darobin> I like it :)
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  565. # [12:50] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  569. # [13:23] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  570. # [13:46] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|brb
  571. # [13:47] <Ms2ger> darobin, ping
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  574. # [13:57] <darobin> Ms2ger: ?
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  578. # [13:57] <Ms2ger> darobin, is it possible that the new idl parser doesn't handle const DOMString product = "Gecko"; ?
  579. # [13:58] <darobin> Ms2ger: "The ConstValue part of a constant declaration gives the value of the constant, which can be one of the two boolean literal tokens (true and false), the null token, an integer token, a float token, or one of the three special floating point constant values (-Infinity, Infinity and NaN). "
  580. # [13:58] <darobin> so, yes
  581. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> Oh, it is actually wrong
  582. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> ?
  583. # [13:59] <darobin> the parser is right, I think the spec is wrong
  584. # [13:59] <darobin> WebIDL doesn't support string constants
  585. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> Mm
  586. # [13:59] <darobin> which seems deliberate, but I can't recall why
  587. # [14:00] <Ms2ger> We have some in IDB too
  588. # [14:00] <darobin> yeah
  589. # [14:00] <jgraham> So it's the WebIDL spec that's wrong? >)
  590. # [14:00] <darobin> I've taken the path of slavishly following the spec in the code; I'd really rather this were fixed in the spec
  591. # [14:00] <darobin> jgraham: ayup
  592. # [14:00] <jgraham> s/>/:/
  593. # [14:01] <darobin> paging heycam|away
  594. # [14:02] <jgraham> It's it like 2am in upsidedown land?
  595. # [14:02] <jgraham> *Isn't
  596. # [14:02] <darobin> it's annevk's fault: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2011OctDec/0040.html
  597. # [14:02] <darobin> jgraham: no, it's 2300
  598. # [14:04] <jgraham> Ah, I was closer for New Zealand
  599. # [14:04] <jgraham> More evidence that NZ is better I think
  600. # [14:05] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-217-68-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  601. # [14:06] <darobin> Ms2ger: full blame for that change should be attributed to annevk, heycam|away, sicking, jgraham, Hixie_, and dom
  602. # [14:07] <darobin> I suggest we hold some kind of punitive tribunal
  603. # [14:07] * Ms2ger shakes his fast at those involved
  604. # [14:08] <Ms2ger> "WorkerLocation implements URLUtilsReadOnly, but one is undefined or not an interface"
  605. # [14:08] <Ms2ger> Is it just me, or does that error message read weirdly?
  606. # [14:09] <jgraham> darobin: I can hardly be blames!
  607. # [14:09] <jgraham> *blamed
  608. # [14:09] * Joins: scor (scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  609. # [14:09] <jgraham> """Anyway possibly I am starting to sound like someone who cares. I'm not
  610. # [14:09] <jgraham> sure that I am."""
  611. # [14:10] <karlcow> "I'm not sure that I am." I should keep that around on a yellow sticky note.
  612. # [14:11] <Ms2ger> Does that imply "I'm not sure that I think"?
  613. # [14:11] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
  614. # [14:11] <jgraham> More like "I might not think", perhaps?
  615. # [14:13] <karlcow> It was maybe a self-warning on the line of "Choose your battle."
  616. # [14:13] <karlcow> or "Do I care enough?", "Is it worth my time?", etc.
  617. # [14:14] <darobin> Ms2ger: where is that error message from? idlharness?
  618. # [14:14] <Ms2ger> Yes
  619. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Er, no
  620. # [14:15] * darobin looks
  621. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> The parser
  622. # [14:15] <darobin> huh
  623. # [14:15] <karlcow> In my annoying features of the Web list this morning (infinite scrolling with XHR), but do I care enough :)
  624. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> ... I think
  625. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Halp
  626. # [14:16] <darobin> Ms2ger: no, it's from idlharness
  627. # [14:16] <darobin> ah, I see how that weird message comes to be
  628. # [14:18] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  629. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> 2021 Pass
  630. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> 1856 Fail
  631. # [14:20] * Ms2ger sighs
  632. # [14:20] <darobin> Ms2ger: the error message should now be helpful
  633. # [14:21] <Ms2ger> darobin, ta
  634. # [14:21] <Ms2ger> Now, on another note
  635. # [14:21] <darobin> np
  636. # [14:22] <Ms2ger> Will Blink remove support for HTMLBaseFontElement?
  637. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> Yet another note...
  638. # [14:25] <Ms2ger> 'assert_throws: getting property on prototype object must throw TypeError function "function () { [native code] }" did not throw' isn't an obvious way of saying 'you don't implement onstorage'
  639. # [14:28] <darobin> isn't that the reverse?
  640. # [14:29] <jgraham> Hmm, I thought properties were supposed to be on prototypes?
  641. # [14:30] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  642. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> Right
  643. # [14:31] <Ms2ger> But if you do window.Node.prototype.ownerDocument, you get an exception
  644. # [14:33] <Ms2ger> darobin, don't I have push access to the th.js repo?
  645. # [14:33] <darobin> Ms2ger: lemme check
  646. # [14:34] <darobin> now you do
  647. # [14:34] <darobin> I made team web-platform-test allowed to push there, I reckon it makes sense
  648. # [14:35] <Ms2ger> Makes sense to me, at least :)
  649. # [14:35] <jgraham> Well
  650. # [14:36] <jgraham> It would be nice to get code review before people push
  651. # [14:36] <jgraham> Which means using the PR mechanism
  652. # [14:36] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/pull/22
  653. # [14:37] <Ms2ger> There you go
  654. # [14:37] <darobin> jgraham: I would expect most people to use PRs
  655. # [14:37] <darobin> were I to make a major change, that's what I would do; but it's convenient to push for the smaller stuff
  656. # [14:38] <darobin> thanks, applied
  657. # [14:39] <jgraham> Yeah, it tends to be small, convenient pushes that break the world :)
  658. # [14:40] <jgraham> I wouldn't object to having a slightly lax system if this were some time critical project with lots of people working on it all the time and lots of churn. But it's not, so asking for review of all changes seems totally reasonable.
  659. # [14:41] * Ms2ger is all for review
  660. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> Where do I scribble down enhancement requests for idlharness.js, btw?
  661. # [14:42] <darobin> Ms2ger: the issues?
  662. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> Github issues? Somewhere in bugzilla?
  663. # [14:42] <darobin> if you can avoid bugzilla, I'd be very thankful
  664. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> Hah
  665. # [14:43] <darobin> Ms2ger: in fact the repo has an idlharness label
  666. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> I like bugzilla ;)
  667. # [14:43] <darobin> I guess you'd have to :)
  668. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> And it has a bunch of issues already
  669. # [14:44] <zewt> most of my experience with bugzilla is having it drop a 200x200 matrix of projects and components at me when i'm trying to report a bug and expecting me to know what to click
  670. # [14:47] <jgraham> I can't express the joy I feel at the thought of using an issue tracker system designed to let <del>idtions</del><ins>delightful humorists</ins> add animated gifs as comments.
  671. # [14:47] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
  672. # [14:47] <jgraham> *idiots
  673. # [14:47] <jgraham> Sigh
  674. # [14:47] <zewt> yeah that's not a good word to typo
  675. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> jgraham, jira?
  676. # [14:48] * darobin barfs
  677. # [14:48] <darobin> don't do things like that man
  678. # [14:48] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't think jira lets you do that.
  679. # [14:48] <jgraham> I mean it's bad, but not *that* bad
  680. # [14:48] <darobin> jira doesn't let you do anything
  681. # [14:48] <jgraham> Also, no one runs JIRA exposed to the web (right?!)
  682. # [14:49] <zewt> i think that's usually the point heh
  683. # [14:49] <darobin> most of my memories of jira involve using Firebug to remove the disabled flag on its submit button because 1) it disables it on click, 2) the backend times out all the time
  684. # [14:49] <jgraham> I have to say I have never had the particular problem
  685. # [14:50] <zewt> heh yeah i've written user scripts to kill forms that do that (in other things)
  686. # [14:51] <zewt> they're painfully annoying to write in chrome compared to firefox though
  687. # [14:51] <zewt> since i have to edit it, switch to settings dialog, drop it in, confirm instead of just editing it in-place and reloading
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  689. # [14:56] <zewt> ... so, is gmail really now trying to force everyone to top-post, with no option to stop collapsing quotes on reply?
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  694. # [15:12] <annevk> press down, hit enter
  695. # [15:12] <annevk> hsivonen: opting out of synchronous access to CSSOM needs elaboration
  696. # [15:13] <annevk> hsivonen: does it mean it will suddenly appear at some point?
  697. # [15:16] <hsivonen> annevk: I'd make it unavailable unless the page calls some async method for requesting availability first
  698. # [15:16] <hsivonen> to avoid race conditions
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  722. # [16:09] <hsivonen> John Foliot sure likes DRM: supporting even a withdrawn EME CfC. :-)
  723. # [16:09] <zewt> every time? not okay
  724. # [16:09] <zewt> ... how does anyone get anything done in eclipse? it's the buggiest IDE i've used in years
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  726. # [16:10] <hsivonen> Eclipse is very good for Java
  727. # [16:10] <zewt> i spend more time fighting with its imaginative bugs than getting work done, where it'll randomly decide to have no text cursor, scroll edit boxes around uncontrollably and now my arrow keys won't work
  728. # [16:10] <zewt> it's heinous
  729. # [16:10] <hsivonen> pretty good for C++, too
  730. # [16:11] <hsivonen> too bad their QA for CDT is so bad that they mamaged to break debugging and ship a couple of major releases with debugging broken
  731. # [16:11] <hsivonen> don't they dogfood that stuff?
  732. # [16:11] <zewt> this feels like a product with barely any QA at all
  733. # [16:12] <hsivonen> C++ debugging that is
  734. # [16:12] <zewt> never used it for anything but android java
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  736. # [16:13] * Ms2ger kicks Opera
  737. # [16:13] <zewt> ... apparently it deleted the key bindings for arrow movement and some other things (and not just me; found it on SO)
  738. # [16:14] <zewt> o_O
  739. # [16:16] <zewt> heh great, there's a bug report on eclipse that has a year and a half of lots of people going "yeah me too" and that's about it
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  741. # [16:20] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Hey, we're better than Eclipse!
  742. # [16:21] <zewt> don't get too excited, MSVC and Xcode are other things that are better than Eclipse
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  746. # [16:29] <Ms2ger> Git people!
  747. # [16:30] <Ms2ger> How do I commit only some of the changes I made to a file?
  748. # [16:31] * Joins: nimbu (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  749. # [16:32] <gsnedders> git add -p
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  754. # [16:38] <jgraham> Indeed, git add -p is awesome
  755. # [16:38] <jgraham> It is the only way to add
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  757. # [16:40] <darobin> has anyone considered making tests for IPv6 support in the TS?
  758. # [16:40] <darobin> I ask because we have the option of having w3c-test.org be IPv6 enabled
  759. # [16:40] <SimonSapin> I like git cola, if only to select lines to commit with a cursor
  760. # [16:42] <Ms2ger> I prefer Coca Cola, myself
  761. # [16:43] <jgraham> darobin: I haven't, but if we have the option we should of course take it
  762. # [16:44] <jgraham> Could be needed for all sorts of things e.g. the URL spec tests
  763. # [16:44] <darobin> jgraham: yeah that's what I was thinking
  764. # [16:45] <darobin> I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't asking for something that for some reason I hadn't thought of wasn't needed
  765. # [16:45] <darobin> it's a go then
  766. # [16:45] <darobin> we should get it soon
  767. # [16:45] <jgraham> SimonSapin: I don't really believe in frontends for git, for some reason
  768. # [16:45] <darobin> think what you want of W3C, the System team is awesome :)
  769. # [16:46] <darobin> jgraham: but... but... they exist! I've seen them!
  770. # [16:46] <SimonSapin> jgraham: me neither, in general, except for the particular use case
  771. # [16:46] <jgraham> darobin: Insert an implied "the utility of" is you must :p
  772. # [16:46] <jgraham> *if
  773. # [16:47] <jgraham> One day i will type all the words I think and not random other words
  774. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> jgraham, okay, two and a half hours, but I managed to address your first comment about Aryeh's reflection tests
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  776. # [16:52] <zcorpan> is this misplaced or deliberate? https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/tree/master/media
  777. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, uh, you'd have to ask the person who added them
  778. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I believe that was zcorpan
  779. # [16:54] <zcorpan> that predated it moving to github
  780. # [16:54] <zcorpan> iirc
  781. # [16:54] <Ms2ger> But yeah, I believe resources/media was intentional
  782. # [16:54] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Great
  783. # [16:55] <darobin> they're useful
  784. # [16:56] <jgraham> Ms2ger: value !== -0?
  785. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> Something wasn't happy with -0s
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  787. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> I suppose...
  788. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> foo.bar = -0
  789. # [16:59] <Ms2ger> assert_equals(foo.bar, -0)
  790. # [17:00] <jgraham> Hmm, assert_equals is supposed to distinguish -0 and 0
  791. # [17:00] <Ms2ger> Oh, hmm
  792. # [17:00] <Ms2ger> This makes my head hurt
  793. # [17:00] <darobin> assert_equals isn't just === ?
  794. # [17:00] <Ms2ger> Let's see what happens when I take it out
  795. # [17:01] <jgraham> darobin: assert_equals is SameValue in ES terms
  796. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> And I'd need to check if Aryeh actually calls into assert_equals
  797. # [17:02] <jgraham> darobin: http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es5.1-final.html#sec-9.12
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  799. # [17:03] <gsnedders> darobin: assert_equals is === but where NaN is equal to itself and 0 and -0 differ.
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  802. # [17:04] <darobin> interesting, and pretty cool actually
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  804. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> Is that ==, ===, ==== or =====?
  805. # [17:05] <jgraham> =, =, ==, ===, =====, ========
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  809. # [17:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: How many of the asserts rely on built-ins not being modified?
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  811. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> jgraham, so if I drop that, I get additional failures like
  812. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> canvas.height: setAttribute() to "-0" followed by IDL get assert_equals: expected -0 but got 0
  813. # [17:09] <jgraham> That sounds like a bug somewhere
  814. # [17:09] <jgraham> I'm not sure where though :)
  815. # [17:10] <jgraham> Presumably integer types in WebIDL should never be -0
  816. # [17:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'd like to remove all dependencies on built-ins not being modified, and hence capture them ahead-of-time.
  817. # [17:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: You mean how much use does it makes of the ES "stdlib"?
  818. # [17:11] <jgraham> The answer is more or less "I'm not sure"
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  820. # [17:11] <jgraham> What's your use case?
  821. # [17:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: Object.hasOwnProperty is used a fair bit
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  823. # [17:11] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I guess it's better to move the test into ReflectionTests.parseInt
  824. # [17:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: Using testharness.js for JS tests.
  825. # [17:12] <jgraham> OK
  826. # [17:12] <jgraham> Well it seems like it has a certain cost
  827. # [17:12] <Ms2ger> gsnedders++
  828. # [17:12] <jgraham> We could of course create an object called es or something
  829. # [17:12] <jgraham> and then do es.Object.hasOwnProperty
  830. # [17:13] <jgraham> Does that sound sufficient
  831. # [17:13] <jgraham> ?
  832. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> Where es.Object is a copy of Object, I guess?
  833. # [17:13] <jgraham> Yeah
  834. # [17:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: capturing them along where settings and the like is created? That WFM.
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  836. # [17:14] <jgraham> var es = {null:null, undefined:undefined, Object:Object, [...]}
  837. # [17:14] <gsnedders> undefined may as well equal void 0
  838. # [17:14] <Ms2ger> Well crap
  839. # [17:14] <gsnedders> Given that's guaranteed to be write.
  840. # [17:14] <gsnedders> write? right.
  841. # [17:14] <jgraham> Left?
  842. # [17:15] <gsnedders> Up up, down down?
  843. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> jgraham, and moving the test also fixes some tabIndex tests, let me push that
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  846. # [17:19] <darobin> is there a reason why srcdoc couldn't have blob url instead of about:srcdoc?
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  853. # [17:30] <zcorpan> can you open a blob url in a new tab?
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  857. # [17:31] <jgraham> Probably not
  858. # [17:32] <jgraham> Or, maybe?
  859. # [17:32] <jgraham> No, I guess middle clicking a link gives you a seperateES environment with window.opener unset
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  864. # [17:37] <darobin> mmm, good question
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  868. # [17:45] <darobin> it works at least in Fx20: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2204
  869. # [17:45] <darobin> whether that's a good thing is another question :)
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  871. # [17:46] <darobin> oooh
  872. # [17:47] <darobin> Chrome actually does something interesting: when you open the blob url in a new tab it turns it into blob:http%3A//software.hixie.ch/39326891-4ab9-4254-a3a6-0ab4c4cb3cd1
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  874. # [17:49] <darobin> ah, no, it's not on clicking it's before, I was looking in the wrong place
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  914. # [18:40] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  1074. # Session Close: Sat Apr 06 00:00:00 2013

The end :)