/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-04-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 12 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [00:26] <Hixie> heycam: i'm assigning https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21591 to you, let me know if you disagree (reassign it to me and i'll do it the other way)
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  17. # [00:27] <heycam> Hixie, sounds good, I'll allow string constants
  18. # [00:28] * heycam 's public-script-coord folder is coming up on 1000 unread messages, so he promises to look at it next week
  19. # [00:28] <heycam> (the folder that is)
  20. # [00:28] <heycam> s/promises/futures/
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  22. # [00:29] <arv> heycam: Also, https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=114457
  23. # [00:29] * heycam looks
  24. # [00:31] <Hixie> heycam: cool, thanks. I'm also giving you https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21589; again, feel free to reassign it to me (request to allow trailing commas on enum definitions)
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  26. # [00:32] <heycam> ok
  27. # [00:32] <Hixie> (neither is a high priority)
  28. # [00:34] <Hixie> wtf is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21576 about
  29. # [00:34] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure the spec doesn't have that ID
  30. # [00:35] <Hixie> ah, an extension is to blame
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  39. # [00:51] <gavinc> Some day URL quoting will be consistent between servers, javascript, and browsers right? And I can stop doing "K+__amp__+L+Gates"... sigh
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  283. # [12:01] <annevk> jgraham: is the effect of the filter I created that I get a lot of email spam?
  284. # [12:01] <annevk> jgraham: because then I'm going to remove that again and only review if someone requests that I look at something
  285. # [12:13] <zcorpan> annevk: can you review https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/23 ? :-)
  286. # [12:14] <annevk> darobin: so I looked into "JSON-LD" and that draft is sooo bad
  287. # [12:14] <annevk> darobin: so I wonder whether I'll need to care about it
  288. # [12:15] <darobin> annevk: as I said the other day, I wasn't looking at the actual design but rather at the overall issue they had with WebIDL :)
  289. # [12:16] <darobin> annevk: I just realised that you weren't there when I brought it up (on another channel), but do you reckon that the TAG has a credible reason to support open licenses?
  290. # [12:16] <darobin> I'm just wondering if it would be useful weight to throw in
  291. # [12:24] <annevk> darobin: it enables distributed extensibility
  292. # [12:25] <annevk> And I'm only half-joking here as I think that's pretty much what this is about.
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  294. # [12:28] <darobin> annevk: if you feel you can make the case then you might want to caucus with your new friends and scare up a quick finding
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  298. # [12:42] <jgraham> annevk: If you only want to review in certain folders then you can change the filters. If you just want less mail in your inbox you can use OperaCritic-* headers to filter
  299. # [12:42] <jgraham> Or you can disable email in critic config, I think
  300. # [12:44] <annevk> I guess I only want to look at critic if someone asks me
  301. # [12:44] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  302. # [12:44] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  303. # [12:44] <jgraham> OK, well you should leave the filter but disable the email I think
  304. # [12:45] <jgraham> Although I suppose that won't work so well for reviews where you *do* want the email
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  306. # [12:47] <annevk> I don't need the email, if there's hurry someone can ping me I suppose
  307. # [12:47] <annevk> You don't want to rely on me there anyway :-)
  308. # [12:47] <jgraham> Well I do want to if you havew submitted comments on my tests :)
  309. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> And I want more people to get mail about new reviews :)
  310. # [12:55] <annevk> I'm getting no emails for now
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  323. # [13:14] <annevk> zcorpan: so I'm not intimately familiar with message ports
  324. # [13:14] <zcorpan> annevk: no problem, just read the spec :-P
  325. # [13:15] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@62.82.133.84.static.user.ono.com)
  326. # [13:16] <annevk> zcorpan: are timers and message channels on the same event loop?
  327. # [13:16] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess I should say "task source"
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  329. # [13:18] <zcorpan> annevk: no
  330. # [13:19] <annevk> zcorpan: 003.html seems to depend on when going before the other
  331. # [13:20] <annevk> I guess I should add comments
  332. # [13:19] <jgraham> darobin, odinho: Email?
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  334. # [13:19] <darobin> jgraham: ?
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  336. # [13:20] <darobin> jgraham: are you asking about what odinho meant by email in a somewhat compact manner?
  337. # [13:20] <jgraham> Yes
  338. # [13:20] <jgraham> Maybe should have been "Email?!"
  339. # [13:21] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  340. # [13:21] <darobin> jgraham: GitHub can send email on push, as you know, and we're using that at this point
  341. # [13:21] <jgraham> You have a script that gets email?
  342. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> Sounds like tinderbox
  343. # [13:21] <darobin> yeah
  344. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> It ended in tears
  345. # [13:21] <darobin> setting that up on a w3c box is simple
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  347. # [13:21] * sicking_ is now known as sicking
  348. # [13:21] <jgraham> And that was easier than a script that responds to a HTTP request?
  349. # [13:22] <darobin> it involved changing one line in an existing script and one line in an existing .forward
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  351. # [13:22] <jgraham> OK
  352. # [13:22] <darobin> whereas there was no existing script handling HTTP for this :)
  353. # [13:23] <darobin> if we start doing more things over HTTP then we can easily move to that, but this was really low cost
  354. # [13:23] <jgraham> Well I guess if you already have the infrastructure for it
  355. # [13:23] <darobin> the kind people in the W3C systeam recently moved the testing box under Puppet control
  356. # [13:24] <darobin> with that came all sorts of nice infrastructure
  357. # [13:24] <odinho> darobin: Merely curious on behalf of the list :-)
  358. # [13:25] <darobin> odinho: you'll have to tell me how you assess list curiosity one of these days ;)
  359. # [13:25] <odinho> ^_^
  360. # [13:25] <darobin> you folks going to the HTML & co f2f btw?
  361. # [13:25] <odinho> I'm not employed to do any spec/W3C/WHATWG things.
  362. # [13:26] <Ms2ger> Yet
  363. # [13:26] <odinho> (any more)
  364. # [13:26] <jgraham> Heh
  365. # [13:26] * jgraham isn't going either
  366. # [13:27] <Ms2ger> darobin, watch out, glazou will ambush you
  367. # [13:27] <darobin> ah, shame, beer could've been involved
  368. # [13:27] <darobin> Ms2ger: I'm not afraid of the glazou, I actually bump into him regularly around here :)
  369. # [13:27] <darobin> well, beer will be involved
  370. # [13:28] <darobin> but would've been nice in present company
  371. # [13:28] <jgraham> As batter for fish and chips?
  372. # [13:28] <jgraham> s/as/in/
  373. # [13:28] <darobin> you want me to use you guys as batter for F&C?
  374. # [13:28] <darobin> that doesn't sound wholly appropriate
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  381. # [13:38] <annevk> I was already going to SF beginning of May, didn't want to go twice
  382. # [13:38] <annevk> Also, I'm not in any of those groups
  383. # [13:40] <jgraham> You didn't rejoin webapps?
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  385. # [13:50] <Ms2ger> You can take my place
  386. # [13:55] <zcorpan> is there any presedent for a spec defining that clicks should go through? http://www.w3.org/mid/20839.59437.162735.705552@gargle.gargle.HOWL
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  391. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> text: {type: "string", treatNullAsEmptyString: true},
  392. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> link: {type: "string", treatnullAsEmptyString: true},
  393. # [14:01] * Ms2ger wonders if they both work
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  404. # [14:19] <annevk> jgraham: W3C didn't resolve the problem yet
  405. # [14:20] <annevk> zcorpan: there's a precedent for hit testing being wholly undefined
  406. # [14:21] <annevk> zcorpan: and CSS 'pointer-events' having some influence on that
  407. # [14:21] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
  408. # [14:22] <jgraham> You mean pointere events changes it from being undefined to being differently undefined?
  409. # [14:22] <annevk> jgraham: kinda like that, yes
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  415. # [14:47] <zcorpan> well then i guess multicol should just handwave it
  416. # [14:48] <smaug____> annevk seems to have the default answer "x should use Futures" these days :)
  417. # [14:49] <annevk> smaug____: I found my hammer
  418. # [14:49] <smaug____> ( I don't know whether that is right or wrong answer )
  419. # [14:55] <gsnedders> I feel like all I'm doing this week is filing bugs on Python implementations.
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  425. # [15:13] <zcorpan> gsnedders: too few Futures?
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  436. # [15:35] <zcorpan> ok so what's the correct branch naming? submission/Opera/my-topic ?
  437. # [15:37] <Ms2ger> I believe so, yes
  438. # [15:38] <darobin> zcorpan: we're not too strict on that...
  439. # [15:39] <darobin> note that if you name your branch submission/Opera/my-topic I think it'll clash when someone tries to name their submission/Opera/other-topic
  440. # [15:39] <Ms2ger> Don't think so
  441. # [15:39] <darobin> maybe not, I don't see why, but ISTR that someone had a problem
  442. # [15:40] <darobin> in any case, just make sure there's some identification of the submitter and the feature after "submission/"
  443. # [15:40] <Ms2ger> Given that there's three submission/Opera/*'s already :)
  444. # [15:40] <jgraham> submission/Opera would clash with submission/Opera/foo
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  446. # [15:41] <jgraham> Because that makes "Opera" a file under submisssion, so it can't also be a folder
  447. # [15:41] <darobin> ah, that's the one
  448. # [15:42] <zcorpan> ok
  449. # [15:43] <jgraham> (if helps if you know that branches are refs are files)
  450. # [15:44] <Ms2ger> I thought they were homeomorphic endofunctors mapping submanifolds of a Hilbert space?
  451. # [15:47] <darobin> only in same-sex git
  452. # [15:48] <Ms2ger> I hear France doesn't like that now
  453. # [15:48] <darobin> actually we do, the Senate just voted on it
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  457. # [15:53] <zcorpan> jgraham: should i ping you when i make a new PR or should i expect a critic review to appear?
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  464. # [15:58] <zcorpan> jgraham: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/75
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  469. # [16:07] <jgraham> zcorpan: A critic review does appear, but critic doesn't know your email address so you don't get notified
  470. # [16:08] <zcorpan> jgraham: how do i make it know my email?
  471. # [16:08] <jgraham> zcorpan: Add it to the "email" box on https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/home
  472. # [16:12] <zcorpan> ah
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  537. # [18:12] * karlcow is not on public-script-coord but the http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2013AprJun/0061.html
  538. # [18:12] <karlcow> >We need a few people who can drink from a firehose on "all the lists",
  539. # [18:12] <karlcow> >who then bubble issues up to public-script-coord.
  540. # [18:13] <karlcow> Does tc-39 post the minutes of their meetings to public-script-coord?
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  542. # [18:13] <karlcow> maybe that could be a 1st step if not done.
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  546. # [18:15] <annevk> I think what Boris suggested about routing all new drafts through public-script-coord is a good idea
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  548. # [18:15] <karlcow> but even that… it's a lot lot lot of high level and super technical inputs. It's becoming very hard to understand and follow.
  549. # [18:16] <annevk> TC39 meeting minutes I've seen so far require in-depth knowledge
  550. # [18:16] <karlcow> yeah
  551. # [18:16] <annevk> I can follow them, but when I look at what drafts people are cooking up I kinda doubt the same goes for them
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  555. # [18:17] <karlcow> chaos… each foot on a highly moving platforms. Loss of equilibrium.
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  557. # [18:18] <karlcow> :(
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  559. # [18:20] <jsbell> I strenuously object to more coordination between "the JS people" and "the DOM people". The entertainment that arises when one group realises what the other has done is far more popcorn-worthy than anything Hollywood spits out.
  560. # [18:20] <karlcow> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=meetings:minutes_feb_12_2009
  561. # [18:20] <annevk> I don't think it's all too bad really. We lack a bit of leadership and coherent vision.
  562. # [18:20] <annevk> jsbell: hehehe
  563. # [18:20] <karlcow> hmm not a lot of informations in these minutes
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  566. # [18:24] * karlcow is trying to see if a script would work for Hollywood with "Jaws Savage against Death Of Moan"
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  571. # [18:30] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2013Apr/att-0007/WebRequestStatusCodes4.html
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  573. # [18:31] <annevk> Hmm, should I follow public-web-perf too? Not entirely clear I would be able to get any work done if I just start subscribing to the firehose, as Brendan puts it.
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  583. # [18:50] <karlcow> annevk: the volume of mails starts to be insane. It's a full time job to just read them on all mailing-lists. One person doesn't scale (to my own misery for the open web summary)
  584. # [18:51] <annevk> Right, lets not forget it's a good thing too. This thing is more successful than ever.
  585. # [18:51] <annevk> We just need to deal with the growing pains somehow.
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  606. # [19:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: in "Add convenience functions for immediate/canceled promises" you agree with Future.resolve but yesterday you asked for .accept
  607. # [19:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: that's confusing
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  613. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> annevk: I forgot the exact names. Also, I haven't yet internalized the difference between accept and resolve.
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  618. # [19:44] <annevk> TabAtkins: thought I'd mention it since Domenic did point out what resolve() would do
  619. # [19:44] <annevk> TabAtkins: so I was confused whether you'd be okay with that or not
  620. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> He pointed it out? He must have done so in a way that doesn't actually explain it, since I still don't know what it does. :/
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  624. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> I suspect I'm well-placed to do the firehose thing (I subscribe to and read all of www-style, webapps, www-dom, script-coord, whatwg, and es-discuss), but because I read all of it, I'm bad at realizing when things need to be bubbled up for other people. ^_^
  625. # [19:53] <annevk> There's a bunch more, too. webappsec, media-capture, html-media, webcrypto, ...
  626. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I don't pay attention to those.
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  636. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> annevk: If I'm reading right, the difference between accept() and resolve() is that accept() just immediately resolves the future to the passed value, while resolve() checks if the value is also a future(/thenable), and if so, waits until *that* future resolves, and resolves the initial future to that value.
  637. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> That's a lot of pronouns, but you should get what I mean.
  638. # [20:08] <annevk> yes
  639. # [20:08] <annevk> yes
  640. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Okay. In that case, no reason not to provide all three of the resolver methods straight on Future.
  641. # [20:10] <annevk> sure
  642. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> I just sent email.
  643. # [20:10] <annevk> I'll look at most of that stuff later
  644. # [20:10] <annevk> there were some interesting ideas there too with respect to streams and signals
  645. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> Yes, I'd be interested in exploring that with you, when you have time.
  646. # [20:11] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm in SF May 6-10, MV the Monday after
  647. # [20:12] <annevk> TabAtkins: and in Tokyo June 6-23 or so, I hear you go there now and then
  648. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> I appear to be free in May, and I'll be in Tokyo for at least a week in the beginning of June (for SVG and CSS and maybe TTWF).
  649. # [20:13] <annevk> But hopefully we'll get some stuff sorted out async/via IRC by that time
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  651. # [20:14] <annevk> I gotta go for a bit, have been staring at this thing too long
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  657. # [20:22] * jgraham notes that all the suggestions in http://www.w3.org/mid/D236F78E-8320-4FC2-986B-6EE57FE6FED3@wirfs-brock.com are of the from "W3C should (do thing) to give TC39 a voice"
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  661. # [20:29] <jgraham> The obvious implication being that the right solution is "TC39 should disband and Javascript should be developed through the W3C"
  662. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> I suggest you reply with that and I sit back and enjoy the results :)
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  667. # [20:31] <divya> ahahhahaha
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  672. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, no, only if you date someone with mixed red-brown hair
  673. # [20:38] <Hixie> jgraham: "more meetings" doesn't seem to me like the best way to solve TC39's problems :-)
  674. # [20:39] <jgraham> I am really very tempted, but I can't quite bring myself to do it. Not because I'm not serious, but because I can't face all the explainations as to why it can't happen.
  675. # [20:39] <jgraham> (that was aimed as Ms2ger)
  676. # [20:40] <jgraham> I'm not sure "disband TC39 and start a W3C group instead" implies "more meetings"
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  678. # [20:41] <Hixie> jgraham: that e-mail was all about more meetings at TPACs
  679. # [20:41] <Hixie> as far as i can tell :-)
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  687. # [20:50] <Hixie> TabAtkins: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17812
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  689. # [20:54] <jgraham> Hixie: If they weren't a seperate body they wouldn't have *more* meetings at TPACs; it's just that their normal meetings would happen to be at TPACs and DOM people could attend (and they could attend e.g. webapps meetings if they wanted)
  690. # [20:55] * Ms2ger imagines that
  691. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> Every time someone mentions WebIDL
  692. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> "Hi, I'm from TC39, I don't know anything about how WebIDL works, and I think it sucks"
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  696. # [21:08] <Hixie> jgraham: fair enough
  697. # [21:08] <Hixie> jgraham: i didn't get teh feel from that e-mail that they wanted to disband TC39
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  699. # [21:09] <Ms2ger> Hixie, they don't
  700. # [21:09] <Ms2ger> Hixie, but jgraham pointed out that that would be a solution to the stated problems
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  702. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Suggest it. I've been told the historical reasons for why ES was developed in ECMA originally, but I don't remember what they are anymore. Certainly, whatever they were no longer applies.
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  735. # [22:43] <jwalden> I have a very very very vague recollection of the hurdles ECMA put in place being much lower, and therefore it being desirable to get something that corresponded much more closely to the implementation, than something "cleaner" but not compatible with the web
  736. # [22:43] <jwalden> that's what I remember hearing, at least
  737. # [22:45] <annevk> the dynamics have certainly changed since '96 though
  738. # [22:46] <jwalden> yup
  739. # [22:47] <jwalden> also the name *cough* Ecma *cough* :-)
  740. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> i think part of the reason had to do with Dan Connolly not arguing for it to come to W3C but instead letting it go to Ecma
  741. # [22:47] <annevk> And Bert Bos and something about a dead body?
  742. # [22:47] <jwalden> although, the context I vaguely remember hearing this in was that Ecma's still like that, wrt the MS Office XML formats
  743. # [22:47] <annevk> That might have been later
  744. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> and that largely because W3C at the time was averse to standardizing programming languages at W3C
  745. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> this was before XSLT
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  747. # [22:48] <jgraham> The policy was "no programming languages unless they are XML"?
  748. # [22:49] <MikeSmith> Netscape apparently submitted it initially to the W3C and IETF as well as Ecma
  749. # [22:49] <MikeSmith> jgraham: not sure there was any policy
  750. # [22:49] <MikeSmith> and it was before XML too
  751. # [22:49] <jgraham> Anyway I presume that ECMA would put up a fight to keep JS. After all they don't do anything else that anyone's heard of
  752. # [22:50] <MikeSmith> but note also that Microsoft had submitted JScript and VBScript to W3S too
  753. # [22:51] <MikeSmith> jgraham: they could continue to publish the EcmaScript spec regardless, even if the upstream spec came from a W3C group
  754. # [22:52] <jgraham> That doesn't sound entirely unreasonable
  755. # [22:52] <jgraham> But of course I don't know the constraints
  756. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> or maybe Javascript and the Microsoft specs had not but formally submitted to the W3C at the time but I think they were kind of being discussed for publication as standards in various places, including W3C
  757. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah me neither
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  759. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> hmm from what I can glean, apparently at that time in 96 there was some policy document published at W3C that talked about "Independence of essential services
  760. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> > from programming language
  761. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> "
  762. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> "While some services should remain specific to individual language runtime systems, the interface between the language runtime and the HTML document must be compatible with a variety of programming languages. Givent the history of programming languages, it's clear that binding such essential services to any particular language would compromise the evolution of the web."
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  765. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> Given that binding to a particular language *at that time* would probably have meant Java, they were probably right.
  766. # [23:01] <jgraham> Well except it is bound to a particular language so they were wrong
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  768. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> I meant that they were right about binding to Java compromising the evolution of the web.
  769. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> Later, the web de facto bound itself to a single language which was better, so they were wrong.
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  772. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
  773. # [23:06] <MikeSmith> anyway from what I can tell it seems that Netscape originally had preferred to take it to either W3C or IETF but the reason they didn't is that both the W3C and IETF basically told them No, we're not interested
  774. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Right. Nowadays, it does seem that the different orgs just make it harder to evolve the web semi-coherently.
  775. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> yup
  776. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> see also https://brendaneich.com/2011/06/new-javascript-engine-module-owner/
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  778. # [23:08] <MikeSmith> "At some point in late summer or early fall 1996, it became clear to me that JS was going to be standardized. Bill Gates was bitching about us changing JS all the time (some truth to it; but hello! Pot meet Kettle…). We had a standards guru, Carl Cargill, who knew Jan van den Beld, then the Secretary-General of ECMA (now Ecma). Carl steered our standardization of JS to ECMA.
  779. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Ah, accidents of history...
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  781. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> interesting statement at http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jep/3336451.0014.103/--why-standardization-efforts-fail?rgn=main;view=fulltext too
  782. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> from Carl
  783. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> "When the initial standards activity was being proposed, Java was still relatively new to market, and Microsoft had just forced Netscape to standardize JavaScript in Ecma. "
  784. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> "forced"
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  786. # [23:16] <odinho> Well, if vendors go together, it would be possible to fix the overarching problems, and evolve it somewhat more coherently.
  787. # [23:17] <odinho> Or at least in a hopefuly theory.
  788. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> reading https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/storage-dev/o6ZeVTXtuWQ
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The end :)