/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-04-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 13 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:02] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21180 is the best bug ever
  7. # [00:02] <Hixie> the sum total of the bug description is "please correct"
  8. # [00:04] <rillian> Hixie: be fair. there's a section reference. they're not expecting all of HTML to be corrected.
  9. # [00:05] <Hixie> fair enough.
  10. # [00:05] <Hixie> no idea what's wrong though!
  11. # [00:05] <rillian> if only it had said #main-element
  12. # [00:06] <annevk> /whois rillian
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  26. # [00:32] <Hixie> css people who care about bidi, ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21188
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  31. # [00:36] <Hixie> well this is an extreme case of this copy-and-paste phenomenon: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21196&list_id=7566
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  49. # [00:58] <Hixie> heycam|away: ping for advice on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19611
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  61. # [01:21] <Hixie> mounir: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11937
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  68. # [01:38] <jsbell> heycam|away: in WebIDL, is the TypeSuffix nonterminal intentionally recursive, i.e. type[][][]?[]????[][] ? Seems like it should only be allowing type, type?, type[] and type[]? but perhaps I'm mis-reading.
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  70. # [01:41] <jsbell> I mean: a nullable array of nullable array of array of array of nullable array (etc) of type is itself a conceivable type, but is that expressiveness *in WebIDL* intentional or a grammar glitch in the spec?
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  103. # [02:34] <zewt> apis without specs can be comedic
  104. # [02:36] <zewt> x = otherwindow.console.log; x("log"); worked in firefox and ie9 but not webkit, and now we have webkit people wanting to change to making it work while ie10 apparently (untested) doesn't allow it anymore
  105. # [02:36] <zewt> bleh, guess i should set up a vm for ie10
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  107. # [02:41] <zewt> why does google let people run ads for "ie10" that have titles "FREE INTERNET EXPLORER 10" that go to random other things, is there no screening at all
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  116. # [03:05] <heycam> Hixie, so my opinion on the DOMStringMap thing is that it would be nicer if it were [OverrideBuiltins], so you don't get the other properties from Object.prototype shining through
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  234. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Apr/ appears to suggest a ttwf is in progress
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  238. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah in Seattle
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  246. # [13:06] <smaug____> " WebIDL systematically leads to APIs hostile to the working JavaScript programmer." is not very helpful
  247. # [13:07] <annevk> where is that from?
  248. # [13:07] <annevk> oh you're reading that thread too
  249. # [13:08] <annevk> I try to read past the blame game
  250. # [13:08] <annevk> it's not very interesting
  251. # [13:11] <smaug____> I'm trying to understand the complaints
  252. # [13:11] <smaug____> but since the complaints are just "this is not good"
  253. # [13:11] <smaug____> it is a bit hard to argue anything
  254. # [13:11] * Ms2ger has long given up on those trolls
  255. # [13:14] <annevk> smaug____: they have been concrete though and given feedback
  256. # [13:14] <annevk> smaug____: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/43696/WD-proximity-20121206/2740
  257. # [13:14] <annevk> smaug____: part of the problem is us
  258. # [13:15] <annevk> smaug____: we haven't done early outreach and just shipped a bunch of broken APIs
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  260. # [13:15] <annevk> smaug____: I can totally understand that it makes it feel kinda futile to then make concrete proposals for an alternative
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  263. # [13:19] <smaug____> well, as an example, it isn't clear what the event handling API should look like
  264. # [13:19] <smaug____> it doesn't have to be what jQuery does
  265. # [13:19] <annevk> the high-level comment there is that what we have now for these sensor APIs is very bad
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  267. # [13:20] <annevk> registering a handler activates the sensor
  268. # [13:20] <annevk> and removing the handler deactivates it
  269. # [13:20] <annevk> event listeners should not have such side effects at all
  270. # [13:20] <smaug____> why not
  271. # [13:21] <smaug____> if it is not visible to the API user
  272. # [13:21] <smaug____> that *if* is rather important here :)
  273. # [13:21] * smaug____ goes to check what sensors API does
  274. # [13:22] <Ms2ger> Yay, DAP
  275. # [13:22] <annevk> it's totally visible
  276. # [13:22] <annevk> Ms2ger: more like yay dougt
  277. # [13:22] <Ms2ger> Ugh, dougt
  278. # [13:22] <smaug____> editor is Dzung
  279. # [13:23] <annevk> smaug____: most of those APIs were copied straight from B2G
  280. # [13:23] <smaug____> ah
  281. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> You can hardly blame the B2G APIs on WebIDL
  282. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> They all use XPIDL
  283. # [13:23] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html is the first one that happened I think
  284. # [13:23] <smaug____> uh
  285. # [13:23] <smaug____> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/sensor-api/Overview.html is totally non-sense
  286. # [13:24] <smaug____> The event handler passed to addEventListener must provide the signature: interface SensorCallback {
  287. # [13:24] <smaug____> void ondata (double value, double min, double max);
  288. # [13:24] <smaug____> };
  289. # [13:24] <annevk> smaug____: haha
  290. # [13:24] <Ms2ger> Note "The Device APIs Working Group decided to put this general Sensor API specification on hold and work on each sensor separately (see e.g. the Device Proximity)."
  291. # [13:25] <annevk> smaug____: fwiw, I might sensor APIs in a more general sense
  292. # [13:25] <annevk> smaug____: things like proximity, orientation, etc.
  293. # [13:25] <annevk> s/might/meant/
  294. # [13:25] <smaug____> Ms2ger: oh, I should read that boilerplate
  295. # [13:25] <smaug____> but good
  296. # [13:26] <Ms2ger> It might perhaps be helpful if these APIs weren't all developed in small groups without Web API design experience
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  298. # [13:29] <jgraham> There is a second problem which is that engine constraints mean that we sometimes can't design the APIs that JS programmers would design
  299. # [13:29] <smaug____> we should have kidnapped Andrei in London (saw him when we were going to the Thai-restaurant) and make him to fix geo spec
  300. # [13:30] <jgraham> e.g. the weblinkit adversion to having C++ own js objects
  301. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> Is weblinkit what we're calling it now?
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  303. # [13:53] <annevk> smaug____: oh he was there? missed that
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  334. # [16:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: I don't care what you believe. :)
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  341. # [16:09] <jgraham> I thinkn forcing imports to be alphabetial is just silly :)
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  343. # [16:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: I think using an abstract concept of generality is silly.
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  345. # [16:12] <jgraham> I think being anal about import orders is silly
  346. # [16:13] <jgraham> Just move the from foo import bar to before the next empty line and stop discussin git :)
  347. # [16:13] <jgraham> *discussing it
  348. # [16:13] <gsnedders> I already did.
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  350. # [16:13] <jgraham> You seem to still be discussing it :)
  351. # [16:13] <gsnedders> And I broke the build. :)
  352. # [16:14] <gsnedders> I should really run tests locally first. :)
  353. # [16:14] <jgraham> Oh, missing a comma
  354. # [16:15] <gsnedders> Yeah, pushed fix.
  355. # [16:16] <jgraham> So are you planning to rebase this? I have no idea if/how github/critic would cope with that
  356. # [16:17] <gsnedders> Will rebase then close pull request manually.
  357. # [16:17] <jgraham> OK
  358. # [16:17] <gsnedders> At least I think I have to do it manually.
  359. # [16:17] <gsnedders> But waiting for Travis CI first. I haven't tested the fixes on Python 3.
  360. # [16:17] <jgraham> Yeah, i have the feeling that history rewrites on PR branches wouldn't work so well
  361. # [16:17] <gsnedders> Could try. :)
  362. # [16:18] <gsnedders> But non-fast-forward stuff is always evil to push.
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  364. # [16:19] <jgraham> Well it's a rather common critic workflow, as well you know (and typically doesn't cause any problems)
  365. # [16:19] <gsnedders> (`pip install lxml` is a real bottleneck on Travis CI, sadly.)
  366. # [16:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: But that's the critic repo, which people don't often fetch
  367. # [16:22] <gsnedders> Getting us actually passing tests with all the optional extras is making me feel that html5lib might, you know, work.
  368. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> It does?
  369. # [16:27] <jgraham> gsnedders: I know *why* it works
  370. # [16:27] <jgraham> :)
  371. # [16:29] <jgraham> So where are all the TestTWF people?
  372. # [16:30] <jgraham> Oh, I guess it is only 7:30 am
  373. # [16:30] <jgraham> So possibly asleep
  374. # [16:33] <jgraham> Someone should tell them to go on IRC in #testing or something. Although I don't know how much I'll be around to help
  375. # [16:34] <jgraham> Hopefully a bit at least
  376. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> I don't know if I should be around, in that case ;)
  377. # [16:36] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also now pushed huge commit removing all trailing whitespace :)
  378. # [16:37] <jgraham> Yay! No more red!
  379. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> So is github the canonical repo now?
  380. # [16:39] <jgraham> Yes
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  383. # [16:41] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Well, four repos. :)
  384. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> Yay.
  385. # [16:42] <gsnedders> If you find anything bogus in the history, file a bug. And then we'll have to decide whether it's worthwhile rewriting history to remove.
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  387. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> annevk, I get a "term not defined: dom manipulation task source" when generating dom
  388. # [16:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: hmm sorry about that
  389. # [16:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: I have not updated xref yet because the migration of CORS is not entirely complete
  390. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> Ah, I see
  391. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> No worries
  392. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> I was just looking if html5lib still worked
  393. # [16:53] <annevk> k
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  398. # [17:11] <Hixie> 03:21 < heycam> Hixie, so my opinion on the DOMStringMap thing is that it would be nicer if it were [OverrideBuiltins], so you don't get the other properties from Object.prototype shining through
  399. # [17:11] <Hixie> er
  400. # [17:11] <Hixie> mispaste. that was for the bug.
  401. # [17:11] <Hixie> what i meant to paste here was: http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1c8wzq/htmltagpy_a_new_module_to_wrap_content_in_html/c9eclnh?context=3
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  403. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> Oh, so *that*'s what's been messing with your productivity ;)
  404. # [17:19] <Hixie> messing with my productivity? have you _seen_ the chart for the last week? :-P
  405. # [17:19] <Hixie> i've been kicking ass! :-P
  406. # [17:20] <Ms2ger> Last week, yes ;)
  407. # [17:20] * Ms2ger has noticed that in his inbox too
  408. # [17:21] <Hixie> hehe
  409. # [17:21] <Ms2ger> I wish all weeks were that way :)
  410. # [17:24] <annevk> Hixie: fwiw http://angularjs.org/ is what Google promotes, prolly under the "HTML5" banner and allows custom elements, much like web components, which come to think of it, are probably also promoted as "HTML5"
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  413. # [17:31] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, i know
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  418. # [17:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: Speaking of people pushing non-ff updates to remotes, deleting remote branches it's tracking upsets critic a little
  419. # [17:48] <jgraham> By which I mean "I get email about it"
  420. # [17:48] <jgraham> Please at least close the review so that the tracking stops :)
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  422. # [17:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: It already is closed.
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  425. # [17:58] <jgraham> Huh, so why is it still tracking?
  426. # [17:59] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@31.47.112.204)
  427. # [18:00] <jgraham> Well when I close it it stops tracking... I guess I should either read the code or ask jl
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  430. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> annevk: Do you know off-hand what encodings have รง encoded at 0x87?
  431. # [18:15] <GPHemsley> annevk: (Search for "07390000" in http://memory.loc.gov:8081/ll/llhb/030/llhb030.txt for a live web example)
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  433. # [18:21] <GPHemsley> annevk: Oh, hint: IBM code page 850 has it. Not in the Encoding spec, but available in Firefox.
  434. # [18:21] <Hixie> wtf https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&list_id=7641&longdesc=213.37.128.77&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr
  435. # [18:21] <Hixie> this one IP has filed four of these bogus bugs with just selected text
  436. # [18:21] <Ms2ger> Does that URL say "longdesc"?
  437. # [18:23] <Hixie> longdesc is what bugzilla calls a comment internally
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  442. # [18:39] <Hixie> how dod i compare to arbitrary unicode strings in js, with case folding?
  443. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> foo.toLowerCase() === bar.toLowerCase()?
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  446. # [18:42] <Hixie> is thought that wasn't good in all languages or something
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  464. # [19:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: I am very alarmed. html5lib.treewalkers.etree throws ImportError on loading, yet all tests pass.
  465. # [19:42] <odinho> Not really 100% coverage there? :P
  466. # [19:46] <Philip`> If it couldn't load any of the tests, then none of them failed, therefore they all passed - seems perfectly logical
  467. # [19:48] <gsnedders> tl;dr: keep your try blocks small to not catch exceptions you don't mean to
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  469. # [19:50] <gsnedders> Is there any way to get text outside of the html element? It's always reparented, right?
  470. # [19:53] <bholley> Hixie: yt?
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  472. # [19:54] <Hixie> bholley: yeah, sup
  473. # [19:54] <bholley> Hixie: was just curious about dialogArguments
  474. # [19:54] <bholley> The dialogArguments IDL attribute, on getting, must check whether its browsing context's active document's origin is the same as the dialog arguments' origin. If it is, then the browsing context's dialog arguments must be returned unchanged. Otherwise, if the dialog arguments are an object, then the empty string must be returned, and if the dialog arguments are not an object, then the stringification of the dialog arguments must be returned.
  475. # [19:54] <bholley> (from the spec)
  476. # [19:54] <bholley> Hixie: why do we have to stringify in the non-same-origin case?
  477. # [19:54] <Hixie> one sec, switching computers and have to reboot the one i'm switching to. brb.
  478. # [19:55] <bholley> Hixie: np
  479. # [19:57] <Hixie> k, back
  480. # [19:57] * Hixie reads
  481. # [19:59] <Hixie> oh it's just because otherwise you can leak cross-origin access
  482. # [19:59] <Hixie> e.g. if it contains a DOM Node
  483. # [19:59] <Hixie> you've just leaked that entire origin
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  485. # [20:00] <bholley> Hixie: but we're talking about the primitive case
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  487. # [20:00] <bholley> Hixie: objects are the empty string, right?
  488. # [20:01] <Hixie> oh, hm
  489. # [20:01] * bholley reads the dichotomy as object vs primitive, and assumes that nodes would fall into the object case, but might be missing a subtlety
  490. # [20:01] <Hixie> no, i don't think you are
  491. # [20:02] <Hixie> maybe it's what browsers do?
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  493. # [20:02] <Hixie> or maybe i was just absent-minded when speccing that...
  494. # [20:02] * Hixie looks at blame
  495. # [20:02] <bholley> not what Gecko does, haven't checked anything else
  496. # [20:04] <bholley> Hixie: I'm asking because I'm trying to simplify our whole setup for this stuff so that we can just do the origin check directly on the jsval when it comes time to define it on the global. But only objects (non-primitives) have an origin associated with them, so it's difficult to know whether to stringify or not in the primitive case
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  498. # [20:05] <Hixie> looks like this text dates back to the first introduction of the text in the spec
  499. # [20:05] <Hixie> so it's probably just a mistake
  500. # [20:06] <bholley> Hixie: \o/
  501. # [20:07] <bholley> Hixie: want me to file?
  502. # [20:08] <Hixie> i'd like us to test other browsers first
  503. # [20:08] <Hixie> well, before we change the spec, anyway
  504. # [20:08] <Hixie> no harm having a bug on file to track it
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  506. # [20:09] <bholley> Hixie: ok, I'll write a quick testcase
  507. # [20:10] <bholley> Hixie: also, can you clarify what you mean by "named properties other than child browsing context names" in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21674 ?
  508. # [20:10] <Hixie> (hahah, the guy who said i should read up on html5 edited his comment to remove that bit of it)
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  510. # [20:10] <gsnedders> (Where? :))
  511. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1c8wzq/htmltagpy_a_new_module_to_wrap_content_in_html/c9eclnh?context=3
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  513. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> bholley, global scope polluter
  514. # [20:12] <Hixie> bholley: like, window.foo for <a name=foo>
  515. # [20:12] <bholley> Hixie: oh god, I sure hope not
  516. # [20:13] <bholley> Hixie: certainly not in Gecko
  517. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> bholley, fwiw, I think we have a special case for nsIDOMWindows
  518. # [20:13] <bholley> Ms2ger: special-case in what sense?
  519. # [20:13] <bholley> Ms2ger: as in the way we handle it in AccessCheck.cpp?
  520. # [20:13] <bholley> IsFrameId?
  521. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> Oh, no
  522. # [20:14] <bholley> Hixie: but yeah, in Gecko this just goes straight to the browsing context tree, and I'd be very suspicious of doing anything more general
  523. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> I was thinking of something in nsWindowSH::GetProperty, but that's dead
  524. # [20:14] <bholley> Hixie: I'll test enumerability now
  525. # [20:15] * bholley grumbles about SSH lag while writing testcases on his server, but then remembers that he's sitting on an airplane
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  527. # [20:16] <odinho> bholley: mosh
  528. # [20:16] <bholley> odinho: mosh?
  529. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> mosh
  530. # [20:16] <odinho> my bestest friend. mobile-shell/mosh yes.
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  532. # [20:17] <bholley> odinho: what is that?
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  534. # [20:17] <odinho> bholley: No, who knows, try a apt-get install mosh or your equivalent, and check it out ;-)
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  536. # [20:18] <odinho> bholley: It helps you with laggy connections. Works better in typical mobile situations. E.g. when changing connections, or having very high latency. It has local echo e.g.
  537. # [20:19] <bholley> hm, there's no homebrew for it
  538. # [20:19] <bholley> odinho: or wait, is this server-side or client-side?
  539. # [20:19] <odinho> Yes there is, -- I have used an OS X machine once.
  540. # [20:19] <odinho> bholley: You need it on both.
  541. # [20:19] <bholley> odinho: brew install mosh gives no results
  542. # [20:19] <odinho> http://mosh.mit.edu/
  543. # [20:19] <odinho> bholley: brew install mobile-shell maybe
  544. # [20:20] <bholley> odinho: bingo
  545. # [20:20] <odinho> ^_^ The website has an OK first page that will list the main points.
  546. # [20:21] <Hixie> bholley: i agree that we shouldn't expose it, but interestingly this means the supported properties differ based on who is accessing the Window...
  547. # [20:21] <bholley> Hixie: I don't follow
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  549. # [20:27] <Hixie> bholley: as in, ('foo' in w) is true if you're same-origin with w and false if you're not, if there's an <a name=foo> in w's document
  550. # [20:28] <bholley> Hixie: well, the same holds for expandos, right?
  551. # [20:28] <Hixie> yeah, i guess it's the same
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The end :)