/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-04-16 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Apr 16 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:01] <rillian> did the websec-mime-sniff draft become http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org or is one a fork of the other?
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# [00:05] <Hixie> rillian: yeah, iirc ietf basically didn't like it existing
# [00:06] <Hixie> abarth would know more
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# [00:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: No, getting a selector to match elements whose contents are numeric is not realistic in the short term. It's basically equivalent in difficulty to getting one which matches a regex against text contents, which has been shot down for performance reasons for a long time.
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# [00:08] <Hixie> TabAtkins: can you comment to that effect on the bug? would be much appreciated. (also if you have any other ideas for addressing that use case, cos i'm all out of ideas on that front)
# [00:08] <rillian> abarth: IIRC we were trying to limit things to the first 500 bytes and/or only mask/compare
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> Yes, I can comment. I think the right thing to do is simply having the column selectors/combinator that Selectors 4 has, which is sufficient.
# [00:08] <rillian> which is why the mp3 and webm sniffing doesn't really work. Does that match your recollection?
# [00:09] <rillian> Hixie: thanks
# [00:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins: cool, thanks
# [00:10] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Though... Hm, testing an attribute value for numeric-ness would probably work.
# [00:10] <TabAtkins> It's roughly equivalent in difficulty to the existing attr operations.
# [00:10] <TabAtkins> (Fundamental problem with testing text content is what to do with non-child text nodes.)
# [00:13] <Hixie> i once proposed [attr>4] and related selectors
# [00:13] <Hixie> fwiw
# [00:13] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I wanna put those into either Selectors 4 or 5.
# [00:13] <TabAtkins> We're trying to shut down 4, so it'll probably make 5.
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# [00:18] <TabAtkins> I wonder what kind of syntax would make sense to test if an attr was numeric.
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# [00:18] <TabAtkins> I mean, you could definitely do :matches([foo>0], [foo<=0]), but that's a bit verbose.
# [00:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah
# [00:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: also, you should clearly switch to an unversioned development model so you could add things whenever :-)
# [00:22] <TabAtkins> Hixie: As soon as we get CR of a spec, we push the unversioned url to a new version, so we can work on whatever we were waiting on.
# [00:22] <TabAtkins> The only time versioning gets in our way now is the period between "ok, time to stabilize and finish what we've got" and "CR published!".
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# [00:23] <TabAtkins> Hmm, since we already have a type flag for case-insensitive matches, maybe we can just use that. [foo n] matches if the foo attribute's value is numeric.
# [00:24] <TabAtkins> Or just make a new comparison. [foo <=> 0] tests for numericness. ^_^
# [00:25] <Hixie> there's an unversioned url?
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> Now there is! Just drop the number (or dash-number) from any dev.w3.org css url, and you'll get the latest draft.
# [00:26] <Hixie> ooo
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox-1 and css-flexbox both point to the same spec, for example.
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> We're planning to apply the same policy to our /TR drafts.
# [00:27] <TabAtkins> All the old css3-foo links still work, because we added redirects, but the preferred url form now is "css-foo", or "css-foo-N" if you want a specific version.
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# [01:08] <Hixie> abarth: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19662#c7
# [01:09] <abarth> Hixie: hi
# [01:09] <abarth> Hixie: looking
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# [01:12] <abarth> Hixie: too complicated for me to think about right now, sorry. I've added it to my asana for this week
# [01:14] <Hixie> thanks!
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# [01:16] <Hixie> abarth: while i have you here, are you still working on web origin?
# [01:16] <Hixie> abarth: in particular, it seems a bit ambiguous what "host" means when the origin has an ipv6 address in it
# [01:16] <Hixie> abarth: whether it has the []s or not
# [01:16] <abarth> yeah, we never resolved that issue
# [01:17] <abarth> do you know which way it ought to be?
# [01:19] <Hixie> i think square brackets included?
# [01:19] <Hixie> but i'm not really sure
# [01:19] <Hixie> it would match url.spec.whateg.org
# [01:19] <Hixie> whatwg even
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# [01:20] <Hixie> abarth: but really my question isn't so much about the serialisation, but about whether "the host part of the tuple" contains the square brackets or not
# [01:20] <Hixie> abarth: and that i've really no idea if it should or not
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# [01:21] <abarth> this gets into how much browsers canonicalize IP addresses
# [01:21] <abarth> As I recall, IE and Chrome do a lot of canonicalization
# [01:21] <abarth> whereas Firefox and Safari do very little canonicalization
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# [01:22] <abarth> I don't remember the details about this particular bit of canonicalization
# [01:22] <Hixie> url.spec.whatwg.org requires a specific form
# [01:22] <abarth> for my money, i'd err on the side of more canonicalization
# [01:22] <abarth> so, if you supply and IPv4 address in octal, it will end up as a dotted quad?
# [01:23] <Hixie> no idea if he supports octal
# [01:24] <Hixie> oh, ipv4 parsing isn't yet defined
# [01:24] <Hixie> indeed host parsing isn't defined other than ipv6
# [01:24] <abarth> i see
# [01:25] <abarth> if folks like the general approach of canonicalizing IP addresses, then we should canonicalize IPv6 address to include the [ ]
# [01:25] <Hixie> k
# [01:26] <Hixie> so I should assume the 'host' part of an origin tuple includes the brackets?
# [01:26] <abarth> yes
# [01:26] <Hixie> is there somewhere i can file a bug on web origin, or does that go on your list too? :-)
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# [01:32] <abarth> Hixie: you can file an issue in this github project: https://github.com/abarth/websec
# [01:33] <Hixie> k
# [01:35] <gsnedders> hober: I presume you don't mind if I base the new html5lib documentation on http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/08/djangosd-html5lib? :)
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# [01:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: We (html5lib) got mentioned in PEP-411!
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# [01:50] <hober> gsnedders: fine by me! i think most or all of my site is cc by sa, iirc
# [01:50] <TabAtkins> Ah, you crazy viral copylefters.
# [01:50] <gsnedders> hober: Yeah, it says so. But would be nice to have docs same license as everything else, and given I'm basically just ripping off your structure :P
# [01:51] <hober> :)
# [01:51] <hober> i forgot all about that talk
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# [04:46] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/meetings/2013-02-28#Mike_Smith__28_tm__29___27_s_Complaint
# [04:47] <MikeSmith> "q+ to ask why tool authors who work for us get to wag the dog here"
# [04:47] <MikeSmith> gotta love that kind of response
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# [04:52] <Hixie> hahaha
# [04:52] <Hixie> "damn these people sending us valid feedback, why do we have to make a good technology that considers things we hadn't thought of"
# [04:53] <Hixie> this is as opposed to when _I_ disagree with you, when that happens i just try to drown you in a wall of text, amirite? ;-)
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# [04:56] <zewt> Hixie: but they thought of everything, therefore the feedback must be invalid, qed
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# [05:07] <MikeSmith> not even clear to me from those minutes what point he was trying to make
# [05:07] <MikeSmith> "I think that the tool is broken."
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# [05:08] <MikeSmith> broken in that it actually implements what the spec says, instead of, I guess, what they intended for it to say, or what somebody should be expected to assume from reading it
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# [05:08] <MikeSmith> I've had some many cases of that with the RDFa specs
# [05:09] <MikeSmith> e.g., before the spec never explicitly stated that the values of the various RDFa attributes could be the empty string
# [05:11] <MikeSmith> so beack then I commented about that and I think I got the same kind of response; i.e., something like "Well of course they can be the empty string. ANy fool can see that. So the spec doesn't actually have to say it."
# [05:11] <Hixie> to be fair, a lot of spec authors are of the mindset that specs don't have to be thorough and precise
# [05:11] <Hixie> a _lot_ of w3c and ietf specs are like that
# [05:12] <Hixie> they give a general idea, and leave the details to implementors
# [05:12] <Hixie> HTML4 being a classic example
# [05:12] <Hixie> but by no means either the worst or the first
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# [05:13] <MikeSmith> yeah
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# [05:13] <MikeSmith> but I would hope the bar is a lot higher these days
# [05:14] <Hixie> a lot of people were never asked if they agreed with the kind of spec quality css2.1 started
# [05:14] <Hixie> and so they're still in the old world
# [05:14] <Hixie> where spec writing was easy :-)
# [05:14] <MikeSmith> heh
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# [05:15] <zewt> wow, irssi is terrible
# [05:15] <zewt> it takes _foo_ and underlines it
# [05:16] <zewt> you know you've worked on crappy terminal irc client too long if you're implementing that and actually think it's not horrible gimmicky nonsense
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# [05:16] <othermaciej> implementors can't be trusted to figure out the details in a consistent way
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# [05:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: don't forget, this is the same mindset that thinks that non-conforming documents are irrelevant because interop doesn't matter if the author screwed up
# [05:18] <zewt> (which itself assumes that a nonconforming document is the author's fault)
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# [05:19] <Hixie> it often is, to a first approximation, but that's of no consolation to the users when 97% of documents are trivially non-conforming in some way or other :-)
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# [05:21] <zewt> but 97% of documents are nonconforming != 97% of authors screwed up :P
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# [05:21] <zewt> (no, we're not disagreeing in any material way)
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# [09:04] <Ms2ger> annevk: I saw a Gecko patch for autoRevoke, btw
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# [09:25] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: do you have any URLs to sites that do smooth scrolling?
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# [10:00] <zcorpan> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16920 seems good to me
# [10:01] <zcorpan> hmm, except for "This should be done even if the video is paused, except if video playback hasn't ever started yet."
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# [10:34] <annevk> Why can https://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/MailingListQuery.pl?queryList=www-dom and such no longer be accessed with Member credentials?
# [10:36] <Ms2ger> jgraham, so how do I get my pr mirrored?
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# [10:40] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunno but maybe not intentional
# [10:40] <MikeSmith> annevk: best to e-mail sysreq@w3.org to ask
# [10:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: In theory, if you have push access, do nothing
# [10:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Since the code is totally untested and therefore broken, tell dom to start looking for the stacktrace in the log
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# [11:18] <annevk> I wonder why filing bugs no longer works on HTML?
# [11:18] <annevk> Or did I just file dozens?
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# [11:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: there's a harness and then almost no tests
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# [11:24] <hsivonen> I know one should not read Internet comments, but there are just so many ill-informed people commenting on the Netflix HTML5 news on The Verge.
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# [11:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: pointer to the harness?
# [11:29] <a-ja> hsivonen: read article, but not comments....pretty silly ones, eh?
# [11:30] <zcorpan> anyone have API design opinions on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20328 and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19753 ?
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# [11:31] <annevk`> Looks like a future
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# [11:35] <zcorpan> allElementsFromPoint(x,y, 'document') ?
# [11:36] <Ms2ger> 'document'?
# [11:37] <annevk> lol, who is annevk`?
# [11:38] <annevk> ah, should have known
# [11:38] <Ms2ger> :)
# [11:39] <hsivonen> a-ja: even the article was just press release journalism summarising the Netflix post without checking other sources for relevant info
# [11:39] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20328 wants to use these methods outside the viewport, in the canvas area
# [11:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: https://bitbucket.org/validator/validator/src/0d0e5f1771339b55adda64089b12a32c5dacb78c/test-harness?at=default
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# [11:40] <annevk> zcorpan: document.hitTest({x:2, y:5}) -> static list (same as the one to be returned from document.find()
# [11:42] <zcorpan> annevk: and what about choosing which area you want (viewport vs document)?
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# [11:42] <annevk> context:"page" / "client" or some such?
# [11:42] <hsivonen> the coverage at Ars is a bit better, but is still pretty close to mere press release journalism
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# [11:46] <hsivonen> at least over at Ars, the commenters have more clue than over at The Verge
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# [11:48] <annevk> Oh that is interesting. Netflix made a bet on DRM ending up in HTML?
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# [11:53] <hsivonen> annevk: well, at this point, EME shipping on Chrome OS is not a bet anymore
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# [12:10] <marcosc> darobin: in respec, how do I escape [[HasOwnProperty]] without respect trying to associate it with a biblio entry?
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# [12:11] <marcosc> s/respect/respec
# [12:11] <Ms2ger> Bwahahaha
# [12:11] <marcosc> heh
# [12:11] <Ms2ger> Try [[
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# [12:12] <marcosc> no, Ms2ger, I'm sure Respec will handle this in a clever way
# [12:12] <marcosc> :)
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# [12:17] <Ms2ger> Bwahahaha
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# [12:19] <annevk> You want to write a spec. You think, I'll use ReSpec. Now you have two problems.
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# [12:25] <zcorpan> annevk: do you have a fancy name for the new caretPositionFromPoint that returns a list?
# [12:25] <annevk> caretHitTest?
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# [12:27] <annevk> note though that without defining hit testing this will create a ton of issues down the road :(
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# [12:31] <annevk> it also seems somewhat unclear what kind of list you want to return
# [12:31] <annevk> e.g. if an element is transparent to hit testing, should it still be in the list?
# [12:31] <annevk> where should it be in the list?
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# [12:31] <marcosc> annevk, one day we will convince mounir that there is only one true tool for spec writing :)
# [12:31] <annevk> mounir is a co-chair now, he doesn't have to entertain the thought of spec writing anymore :p
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# [12:32] * heycam wonders where this idea of co-chairing and not having to do spec writing comes from :)
# [12:32] <marcosc> annevk pioneered that, heycam
# [12:33] <zcorpan> it seems the stated problem can be solved by setting pointer-events:none on the top-most element and calling elementFromPoint or caretPositionFromPoint again
# [12:33] <marcosc> heycam: annevk also told me that if we got on the TAG, we could lounge around all day by the beach and just get paid.
# [12:33] <marcosc> :)
# [12:36] <annevk> zcorpan: on the element returned?
# [12:36] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
# [12:37] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah, I guess at some point you might want to have things like "ignore pointer-events, ignore transparancy, ..."
# [12:37] <zcorpan> annevk: similar to the current workarounds that remove or hide the element, but without any visual glitch
# [12:37] <annevk> zcorpan: which the dictionary will help with
# [12:37] <heycam> marcosc, ha
# [12:38] <zcorpan> annevk: do you mean that you would want to get an element even if it is transparent or has pointer-events:none ?
# [12:40] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah maybe, would have to study hit testing APIs out there
# [12:42] * zcorpan finds http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/HTML5/HitTest/
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# [13:00] <hsivonen> wondering if I should file a bug to make Thunderbird and SeaMonkey always send email as UTF-8
# [13:00] <hsivonen> surely everyone can receive UTF-8 these days
# [13:01] <hsivonen> (except maybe Hixie on pine)
# [13:01] <annevk> yeah I'm not sure why that hasn't happened, but I'm thinking there might be some legacy out there in Japan and such on phones
# [13:02] <annevk> so that if you want your friend to be able to read the email, it better use the right encoding...
# [13:04] <hsivonen> I think we should find out
# [13:04] * hsivonen is generally annoyed by not doing stuff because of *maybe* weird stuff in Japan
# [13:04] * jgraham also uses (al)pine (sometimes) fwiw
# [13:05] <hsivonen> (actual weird stuff anywhere is another thing)
# [13:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: how does it deal with incoming UTF-8?
# [13:05] <jgraham> I don't reacall having character encoding issues
# [13:05] <jgraham> But I haven't exactly tested
# [13:05] <hsivonen> alpine was written in the mid-2000s, so it would be shameful for it not to support UTF-8
# [13:06] <hsivonen> I guess I'll file the bug and see what happens to it
# [13:07] <annevk> +1
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# [13:08] <marcosc> annevk: any chance http://*.spec.whatwg.org could be CORS enabled?
# [13:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: Incoming UTF-8 seems to work fine
# [13:10] <annevk> marcosc: yeah I guess
# [13:10] <odinho> marcosc: Or at least fetch? :P
# [13:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: great
# [13:10] <marcosc> odinho: all would be nice :)
# [13:11] <marcosc> annevk: should I file a bug somewhere?
# [13:11] <odinho> I was just thinking about doogfooding.
# [13:11] <odinho> Minus one o.
# [13:11] <marcosc> fetching fetch?
# [13:11] <marcosc> :)
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# [13:15] <annevk> so what's the way to make this work?
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# [13:15] <annevk> well, is there a simple way to add a header to the output of an entire domain
# [13:16] <annevk> in fact, does .htaccess take effect if you put it above the directory the site is served from?
# [13:18] <jgraham> annevk: No, but you can put it in the root, or change the apache config
# [13:18] <jgraham> (the documentroot I mean)
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# [13:20] <annevk> stupid console
# [13:20] <annevk> shows 304, but does not give a way to show what was actually returned from the cache
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# [13:21] <annevk> jgraham: so it does actually
# [13:22] <annevk> marcosc: everything but dom.spec.whatwg.org now has Access-Control-Allow-Origin:*
# [13:22] <hsivonen> bug filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=862292
# [13:22] <marcosc> thanks annevk!
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# [13:22] <marcosc> how come not dom?
# [13:22] <annevk> by adding "Header set Access-Control-Allow-Origin *" to a .htaccess file shared across the domains
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# [13:22] <annevk> marcosc: I need to fix that one separately unfortunately
# [13:23] <annevk> but should be easy
# [13:23] <marcosc> np, thanks for doing that :)
# [13:24] <marcosc> annevk: works well (confirmed with http://marcoscaceres.github.io/bib_entry_maker/)
# [13:24] <jgraham> Holy crap it does
# [13:24] <jgraham> That's insane
# [13:24] <annevk> DOM has it too now
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# [13:26] <marcosc> need to add all these references to Respec ... normative references to Living Standards For. The. Win...!
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# [13:42] <hsivonen> when do blobs get garbage collected if revokeObjectURL is not called?
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# [13:57] <zcorpan> i wonder how to define offset* for <col>/<colgroup>
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# [14:02] <zcorpan> is it sufficient to say that elements with computed value of 'display' of 'table-column' and 'table-column-group' must be considered to be CSS layout boxes for the purpose of the offset* attributes?
# [14:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, annevk : I did used to be that the mail clients on a lot of Japanese keitai did not support UTF-8 but I don't think that's the case any longer
# [14:04] <MikeSmith> it used to be that many did not even have fonts with glyphs for latin characters that have diacritical marks and such, non-ascii
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# [14:05] <MikeSmith> but I think that's not that case any longer either
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# [14:06] <MikeSmith> lacking those glyphs it didn't matter much how a message was encoded anyway, because you wouldn't be able to read it regardless
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# [14:16] <darobin> marcosc: you use [[\Foo]]
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# [14:17] <annevk> hsivonen: I suspect when everything else is collected
# [14:17] <annevk> hsivonen: although that might break fastback?
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# [14:48] <annevk> okay, so merging redirect fetch and CORS fetch was not a good idea :/
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# [14:51] <karlcow> [07:07] * hsivonen is generally annoyed by not doing stuff because of *maybe* weird stuff in Japan
# [14:52] <karlcow> I have the feeling is a combination of technology/culture at a certain point in space/time.
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# [14:52] <karlcow> I wonder what are the constraints on low-end phones in other territories
# [14:54] <karlcow> maybe less an issue now given that the low end phones anyway are a lot more powerful than 10 years ago.
# [14:54] <karlcow> bah
# [14:54] <annevk> bah?
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# [14:57] <karlcow> ah. my 「bah」in a 「can't be helped」way.
# [14:57] <karlcow> Shikata ga nai
# [14:58] <karlcow> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikata_ga_nai
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# [16:02] <RobbertAtWork> hsivonen: you did a lot of research on the HTML doctype in different browsers; is it a known effect that in IE6 the doctype is returned as comment node by getElementsByTagName()?
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# [16:02] <RobbertAtWork> hsivonen: freaks me out
# [16:02] <RobbertAtWork> hsivonen: http://robbertbroersma.nl/demo/html5-ie6/ alerts "#comment" in IE6
# [16:02] <marcosc> darobin: thanks!
# [16:03] <marcosc> Ms2ger: see! darobin made something clever :)
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# [16:04] <RobbertAtWork> hsivonen: it's not IE6 only by the way, it's IE8 as well
# [16:05] <annevk> RobbertAtWork: I think that was a known quirk of their old parser
# [16:07] <RobbertAtWork> annevk: I see. Never knew I had to filter getElementsByTagName() results by nodeType
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# [16:08] <annevk> RobbertAtWork: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1137740632&count=1
# [16:08] <annevk> RobbertAtWork: has some related fun stuff
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# [16:11] <RobbertAtWork> annevk: thanks!
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# [16:20] <Ms2ger> marcosc, unpossible
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# [16:59] <karlcow> "Use the glass://map URI to request a map." — developers.google.com/glass/location :(
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# [17:03] <annevk> It renders as an image?
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# [17:07] <karlcow> annevk: it seems
# [17:07] <karlcow> <img src="glass://map?w=width&h=height&marker=0;latitude,longitude&marker=1;latitude,longitude&polyline=;latitude,longitude,latitude,longitude"
# [17:07] <karlcow> width="width"
# [17:07] <karlcow> height="height"/>
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# [17:08] <annevk> I wonder if they're using a full browser or a subset of sorts
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# [17:09] <bholley> Hixie: yt?
# [17:09] <annevk> oh Java and Python
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# [17:11] <bholley> Hixie: am reading the spec correctly to mean that enumerating cross-origin DOM objects (Window and Location) shouldn't throw, but should instead return the appropriate cross-origin-accessible properties?
# [17:11] <bholley> Hixie: that is to say, "get the raw properties and then filter"?
# [17:13] <annevk> oh so everything is JSON
# [17:13] <annevk> and JSON can include some raw HTML
# [17:13] <annevk> that's some weird shit
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# [17:18] <annevk> smaug____: yo
# [17:19] <annevk> smaug____: so upload progress events
# [17:19] <annevk> smaug____: combined with a 307
# [17:19] <smaug____> meeting
# [17:19] <annevk> smaug____: your argument is invalid
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# [17:23] <annevk> So Gecko does not seem to dispatch a progress event in that sequence...
# [17:23] <annevk> Lets try setting up some stuff to make a redirect work...
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# [17:43] <nimbu> Dear whatwg http://tjvantoll.com/2013/04/15/list-of-pseudo-elements-to-style-form-controls/ is terrible is this specced somewhere?
# [17:43] <nimbu> or are there plans to?
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# [17:44] <annevk> only long term
# [17:45] <annevk> nimbu: latest is https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/blink-dev/ZAdZJWahyF8
# [17:45] <nimbu> annevk: thnx!
# [17:45] <nimbu> long term!!
# [17:45] <nimbu> long term we will have 100 new nasty pseudo elms
# [17:46] <nimbu> ok i will see what i can do.
# [17:46] <nimbu> thnx annevk
# [17:46] <annevk> well you know, HTML has been around for almost 20 years now and parsing got interoperable about a year ago
# [17:47] <annevk> but yeah, I'd love for this to get fixed
# [17:48] <nimbu> yeah no thanks to some super human efforts
# [17:48] <nimbu> we dont want to be there again
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# [17:51] <marcosc> darobin: might be a bug, but using [[\Foo]] shows up as [[\Foo]] in the spec :(
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# [17:55] <darobin> marcosc: it works here — pointer?
# [17:56] <marcosc> darobin: http://runtime.sysapps.org/
# [17:56] <marcosc> search for [[\
# [17:56] <Ms2ger> 0x7fdde645398
# [17:56] * marcosc waits for robin to point out some dumbass mistake that marcos made
# [17:56] * marcosc will find a way to blame Ms2ger
# [17:58] <darobin> marcosc: shows up as [[HasOwnProperty]] here...
# [17:59] <marcosc> darobin: what browser?
# [17:59] <darobin> I blame whatever benighted browser you must be using
# [17:59] <darobin> Firefox
# [17:59] <darobin> what else?
# [17:59] <marcosc> um,
# [17:59] <marcosc> that one with the funny color circle?
# [17:59] <darobin> more seriously I doubt that there's a browser difference here
# [17:59] <marcosc> checking
# [17:59] <darobin> or rather, not in processing
# [18:00] <marcosc> yeah, that would be weird on the Web
# [18:00] <darobin> I suspect you have a rather old ReSpec aggressively cached maybe?
# [18:00] <darobin> it would be weird for something this trivial :)
# [18:00] <darobin> yeah, works in Chrome here
# [18:00] <darobin> I suggest you reload with extreme prejudice
# [18:00] <marcosc> ok, thanks
# [18:00] <marcosc> will do that
# [18:00] <darobin> looks like your Chrome is pulling off a classic Opera
# [18:01] <marcosc> aren't they the same? :)
# [18:01] * marcosc drumroll please
# [18:01] <darobin> ka-ching
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# [18:02] <marcosc> darobin: one more tiny question... in section 3.3, why is the algorithm counting from 14? (i.e., picking up from counter in section 3)
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# [18:03] <darobin> hah, that's funny
# [18:03] <darobin> I don't believe that's something that ReSpec is doing...
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# [18:04] <darobin> it's... weird
# [18:04] <marcosc> mkay
# [18:05] <darobin> fascinating
# [18:06] <darobin> actually someone did add support for algorithm styling, for whatever reason
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# [18:10] <blink-bot> good morning, Whatwg!
# [18:11] <darobin> marcosc: I'm very puzzle about why the counter-reset doesn't kick in here
# [18:12] <marcosc> darobin: yeah, I thought the markup was ok. About to look at the CSS
# [18:12] <darobin> feel free to use a different class name
# [18:12] <darobin> but there's something really weird going on in the styling there
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# [18:13] <smaug____> annevk: back
# [18:13] <smaug____> haa haa
# [18:13] <smaug____> good morning blink-bot
# [18:13] <marcosc> darobin: yeah, gets more funky if you toggle "counter-reset: numsection"
# [18:13] <marcosc> then it goes to 21?
# [18:14] <smaug____> is that what dglazkov uses his 20% time for, being a blink-bot :p
# [18:14] <Ms2ger> He's off half of the time
# [18:14] <dglazkov> smaug____: I have no idea how that happened. Must've been drunk last week or something
# [18:14] <darobin> marcosc: I have no idea who added that horrible style or why
# [18:15] <darobin> I have half a mind to yank it
# [18:15] <darobin> whoever did it didn't add a test
# [18:15] <marcosc> ok, now it makes sense
# [18:15] <marcosc> I'll change the class name
# [18:15] <darobin> marcosc: that's what's weird: the counter-reset works once, but not the second time
# [18:16] <marcosc> it's like because it's in a sub section it won't reset
# [18:17] <marcosc> darobin: it breaks anyway for sub steps
# [18:17] <marcosc> darobin: you should probably yank it
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# [18:18] <marcosc> darobin: see any step in "teps for processing an application manifest "
# [18:18] <marcosc> "steps for processing an application manifest"
# [18:18] <marcosc> even
# [18:18] <darobin> marcosc: yeah, I'm going to pull it
# [18:18] <darobin> just looking through history to figure out who added it
# [18:18] <marcosc> git blame!!! git blame!!! :D
# [18:19] <marcosc> we need a "git name and shame "
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# [18:22] <darobin> ok, I don't think anyone uses that
# [18:22] * marcosc updates the spec
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# [18:30] <darobin> marcosc: that particular weird piece of madness is now gone
# [18:31] <darobin> it's a change grandfathered from something that came from v2 in HG
# [18:31] <marcosc> darobin: thanks!!!
# [18:31] <darobin> so, I blame hg
# [18:31] <jsbell> darobin: new respec.js push? I note the list of "undefined definition" errors in the IDB spec is way down today.
# [18:31] <Ms2ger> marcosc, did you mess with its references database?
# [18:32] <darobin> jsbell: yes, I found that the missing definition detection code had an issue
# [18:32] <marcosc> heh, Ms2ger not today :)
# [18:32] <darobin> which I plugged
# [18:32] <darobin> jsbell: I still need to look at your other problems
# [18:32] <darobin> I wish people stopped having issues with the current WebIDL code though, it would give me time to actually make the WebIDL bits modern and nice and all :)
# [18:33] <marcosc> darobin: users are the worst!
# [18:33] <marcosc> :)
# [18:33] <darobin> yeah, they want all sorts of shit :)
# [18:33] <marcosc> takes all the fun out of writing code
# [18:33] <jsbell> darobin: cool, thanks. The remaining errors list looks mostly legitimate; still interested in how to correctly reference an enum or interface member.
# [18:33] <jsbell> WANT WANT WANT
# [18:33] <Ms2ger> <dfn>?
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# [18:34] <darobin> jsbell: I'll look at that tomorrow, right now I've just finished doing my taxes and I need a beer :)
# [18:34] <Ms2ger> darobin, also, IDB has issues with TypeError claiming to be a DOMException
# [18:34] <jsbell> no rush
# [18:34] <jsbell> ms2ger: in an "Exceptio table" ?
# [18:34] <jsbell> +n
# [18:34] <jsbell> or in the prose?
# [18:34] <Ms2ger> Table
# [18:35] <jsbell> We need to kill the tables
# [18:35] <darobin> KILL THE TABLES
# [18:35] <Ms2ger> Yes please
# [18:35] <darobin> isn't that what Anssi's legacyThingie does?
# [18:36] <jsbell> I'm waiting on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21555 before replacing the exception tales with prose.
# [18:36] <jsbell> tables. Can't type today.
# [18:36] <darobin> jsbell: look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2013Apr/0132.html
# [18:36] <jsbell> Ugh, wrong bug link too...
# [18:36] <jsbell> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17681
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# [18:37] <darobin> jsbell: so yeah, it looks like noLegacyStyle: true in the config will kill the tables
# [18:38] <darobin> of course, that'll kill whatever content you were expecting to put there, too :)
# [18:38] <Ms2ger> darobin, ... again
# [18:38] <darobin> Ms2ger: ?
# [18:39] <Ms2ger> ReSpec made the tables disappear a while back
# [18:39] <jsbell> right, that's the problem with the IDB spec. Not all of the exceptions are defined in prose.
# [18:39] <darobin> Ms2ger: I think you're thinking about exceptions
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# [18:39] <darobin> completely different problem :)
# [18:40] <darobin> IDB suffered when ReSpec dropped support for WebIDL exceptions
# [18:41] <Ms2ger> darobin, I am talking about exceptions, yes
# [18:41] <jsbell> Yep, we're relying on { idlOldStyleExceptions: true }
# [18:41] <Ms2ger> darobin, what are you talking about, if not exceptions?
# [18:41] <jsbell> I was talking about exceptions too, so confused. :)
# [18:41] <darobin> I think I should add a feature to do spec linting, that would also collect the editors' emails, and would email them insults when they're doing stuff wrong :)
# [18:41] <darobin> Ms2ger: there are other tables, parameters and shit like that
# [18:41] <darobin> those need to go as well
# [18:42] <darobin> in the grand scheme of things
# [18:42] <darobin> which is moving everyone to better specs and all
# [18:42] * Ms2ger suggests anolis for that
# [18:43] * darobin giggles
# [18:43] <Hixie> bholley: i hope so, but wouldn't guarantee it
# [18:43] <Hixie> annevk: how does filing bugs not work?
# [18:43] <darobin> anyway, not that you fine people don't make for enjoyable conversation
# [18:43] <darobin> but as I was saying -> beer
# [18:43] <darobin> thanks for the laughs though Ms2ger ;)
# [18:44] <bholley> Hixie: can you confirm on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=862380 when you get the chance?
# [18:45] <Hixie> send me mail - i'm mostly afk for the next few days
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# [18:46] <Ms2ger> Tired from the sprint the last few days? :)
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# [18:48] <Hixie> you could say that
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# [19:03] <annevk> Hixie: dunno, I filed one manually
# [19:04] <Hixie> what wasn't working?
# [19:09] <annevk> Hixie: using the form from within Firefox
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# [19:21] <annevk> Hixie: seems to happen in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html
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# [19:22] <annevk> Hixie: tried to report a bug about blink
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# [19:30] <annevk> smaug____: see public-webapps I suppose
# [19:31] <smaug____> k
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# [19:33] <annevk> I'm still a bit stuck modelling http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#fetching
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# [19:34] <annevk> E.g. synchronous / asynchronous sharing a code path is hard.
# [19:34] <annevk> The user being able to cancel the request at any point, regardless of synchronous, is hard.
# [19:35] <annevk> Upload progress tasks being able to spain several requests, is hard. Although I guess the same goes for normal progress tasks...
# [19:36] <annevk> I'm very much cheating my way out of this engineering challenge by having a set of encompassing requirements that accompany the algorithm.
# [19:36] <annevk> Sorry, meant to so I'm close to doing that cheating.
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# [20:12] <Ms2ger> Nothing new on http://tc39memes.tumblr.com/ lately...
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# [20:17] <jsbell> Ms2ger: https://twitter.com/FakeAlexRussell isn't enough funny for you?
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# [20:32] <karlcow> A proposal for unprefixing https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/m/?fromgroups#!topic/blink-dev/E0OkYhvF7q8
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# [20:51] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, people still haven't figured out that you can have requirements for multiple conformance classes?
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# Session Close: Wed Apr 17 00:00:00 2013

The end :)