/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 03 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:13] <tantek> mailing lists might actually help with this: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2013-05-02/
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  20. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Yay, I have Jonas agreeing with me so far!
  21. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> That's helpful.
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  25. # [00:39] <Domenic_> is it just me or are my emails not threading correctly -_-
  26. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Works for me.
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  28. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Also: ARRRRGH, I'm not intending my mails to read as "We made a spec and you didn't, so stfu".
  29. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> I was getting getting angry at Mark for pretending like there's a real spec for promises-in-his-head that we all have to defer to, so that whatever I say is irrelevant.
  30. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> I was, however, intending them to be read as "Shit or get off the pot."
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  35. # [00:49] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: are you aware of his involvement in Promises/A+?
  36. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Yes, definitely.
  37. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> But, to the best of my knowledge, he keeps referring to a tc39 promises spec, not the separate promises/a+ spec that you're in charge of.
  38. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> If I'm wrong, sorry, but he hasn't made this clear. ^_^
  39. # [00:58] <Domenic_> I'm not sure that's what he's referring to, but it was my impression he was, because part of the Promises/A+ goal is to be something TC39 can build on, and his involvement has been toward that.
  40. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> My experience is that Mark is often unclear to the point of being obfuscatory. :/ It takes effort to make sure you actually know what he's talking about.
  41. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> But whatever, I'm just trying to get shit down, and don't mean to be rude to anyone. :/
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  134. # [06:01] <Redface> im at seoul digital forum. Tim Buners Lee showed up yesterday and today is for Jessica Alba
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  264. # [11:25] <hallvors> darobin: busy?
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  266. # [11:29] <darobin> hallvors: sort of, why?
  267. # [11:30] <hallvors> I was told to ask you for help fixing some settings on w3c-test.org
  268. # [11:30] <hallvors> (unfortunately, I don't know what exactly needs changing)
  269. # [11:30] <hallvors> But this test fails because the server doesn't allow PHP to send custom HTTP status text: http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/XMLHttpRequest/status-basic.htm
  270. # [11:32] <hallvors> (If somebody else is less busy and could fix it, just tell me who to talk to)
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  272. # [11:32] <hallvors> GET http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/XMLHttpRequest/resources/status.php?code=502&text=YO&content=&;type= should say "502 YO", not "502 Bad Gateway"
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  275. # [11:35] <annevk> heh, I wrote that test :-)
  276. # [11:36] <hallvors> annevk: I know :)
  277. # [11:36] <hallvors> you don't happen to know an Apache pref that needs changing?
  278. # [11:36] <annevk> happy to break both browsers and servers
  279. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> I say we have darobin set up that python server we've been talking about
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  283. # [11:38] <darobin> hallvors: ah yes, that's a known bug
  284. # [11:38] <darobin> Ms2ger: that won't happen today, but it would indeed be good
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  286. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> Tomorrow? :)
  287. # [11:39] <darobin> hallvors: I need to divide and conquer the terrible mess that the Apache config is there to figure out why it won't allow that
  288. # [11:39] <darobin> Ms2ger: it will be the tomorrow of some day :)
  289. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> Heh
  290. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> Hmm, is http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/css2/ actually public?
  291. # [11:40] <annevk> darobin: maybe it's something from PHP?
  292. # [11:40] <darobin> annevk: that's certainly possible too
  293. # [11:41] <darobin> that's one of the many things I love about PHP, it has so many configuration options and so many ways of setting them that you're always certain that it'll just work the same across machines
  294. # [11:41] * hallvors 's irony detector just got triggered
  295. # [11:42] <hallvors> annevk: did you see my attachment in the XHR auth bug?
  296. # [11:42] <SteveF> darobin: i want to move using aria doc to github whats the procedure?
  297. # [11:42] <darobin> SteveF: you want it under the w3c account?
  298. # [11:43] <SteveF> yes as its a html wg deliverable
  299. # [11:43] <darobin> SteveF: ok, what shortname do you want?
  300. # [11:43] <annevk> darobin: how is PHP run?
  301. # [11:43] <darobin> annevk: I think through mod_php (IIRC)
  302. # [11:43] <SteveF> darobin: aria-in-html
  303. # [11:44] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: why not? It’s an ED
  304. # [11:45] <SimonSapin> I’m not sure why it’s not under http://dev.w3.org/csswg/
  305. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, do you know how hard it is to get Bert to make an ED public?
  306. # [11:45] <SimonSapin> not really
  307. # [11:46] <SimonSapin> but I think it’s good that it’s public
  308. # [11:46] * Quits: PyNick (~PyNick@d68079.upc-d.chello.nl) (Quit: Or, is killing myself a way of drinking?)
  309. # [11:46] <annevk> hallvors: no, pointer?
  310. # [11:46] <Ms2ger> It is good indeed
  311. # [11:47] <Ms2ger> Would be interesting to see when the wg first resolved to make it public, and when it actually became public
  312. # [11:47] <hallvors> question: when I push something to GitHub, how long does it take until the corresponding /submissions/ folder for the pull request is updated on w3c-test.org?
  313. # [11:47] <jgraham> "it depends"
  314. # [11:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: is: http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/css2/,access
  315. # [11:47] <SimonSapin> we resolved in February to have one, not sure about publicity
  316. # [11:47] <jgraham> It should be quick (it is push based, not intermittent polling)
  317. # [11:48] <jgraham> But sometimes the github queue gets backed up and you have to wait
  318. # [11:48] <hallvors> annevk: bug 15418 , attachment: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=1353
  319. # [11:48] <hallvors> jgraham: thanks
  320. # [11:48] <hallvors> ah, updated now :-)
  321. # [11:48] <annevk> hallvors: guess I don't get email for attachments
  322. # [11:49] <annevk> Ms2ger: what's the Python server you've been talking about?
  323. # [11:49] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: "RESOLVED: Develop text for CSS2.1 PER as open editor's draft (while continuing to maintain errata). Publish PER when we're done & have updated implementation report" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0382.html
  324. # [11:49] <SimonSapin> it says "open"
  325. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> annevk, a magical solution for all our problems
  326. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> annevk, in python
  327. # [11:50] <annevk> Ms2ger: ah, sounds like what I've been arguing for for a while, but never created (other than simpleserver which I stole from Aleto)
  328. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> annevk, but it needs someone to do work, so, yeah :)
  329. # [11:51] <SimonSapin> what kind of python server?
  330. # [11:51] <Ms2ger> For testing
  331. # [11:52] <jgraham> A perfect one
  332. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> That I can run in Mozilla automation
  333. # [11:52] <annevk> hallvors: that diagram doesn't work
  334. # [11:52] <hallvors> well, what's the problem?
  335. # [11:52] <annevk> hallvors: also, user agents do challenge even if user/pass are provided in URL
  336. # [11:53] <annevk> hallvors: and user/pass in open() are just copied to the URL
  337. # [11:53] <hallvors> Opera doesn't, I think
  338. # [11:53] <annevk> hallvors: so those are equivalent
  339. # [11:53] <hallvors> (and it seems like bad UI :-p)
  340. # [11:53] <annevk> Rebel Opera or Clone Opera?
  341. # [11:53] <hallvors> Rebel
  342. # [11:53] <hallvors> of course :-p
  343. # [11:53] <annevk> hehe
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  345. # [11:53] <annevk> well wait
  346. # [11:53] <annevk> challenge does not mean prompt
  347. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> No, it means challenge
  348. # [11:54] <hallvors> hm.. not following you then
  349. # [11:54] <hallvors> by "challenge", do you mean "send request without authorize first"?
  350. # [11:56] <hallvors> in the diagram, user/pass in open() are handled just like in URL..
  351. # [11:56] <hallvors> so I'm still not sure what's not working for you
  352. # [11:56] <annevk> hallvors: send request, if get a 401, redo request with Authorization header
  353. # [11:57] <annevk> hallvors: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTTP_Authentication has my notes
  354. # [11:57] <annevk> hallvors: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-basic-fetch has it in spec language
  355. # [11:57] <annevk> my idea is to obsolete most of XHR's HTTP infrastructure with that spec
  356. # [12:00] <hallvors> I just need enough details somewhere to make sure XHR tests have usable pass conditions :-p
  357. # [12:00] <annevk> hallvors: okay, so one problem with your diagram is that for cross-origin and credentials in the URL, you don't want to transmit an Authorization header
  358. # [12:00] <annevk> hallvors: in fact, you just want to return the 401
  359. # [12:00] <hallvors> (btw I want to split up your send-authentication.htm into multiple tests. It's pretty hard to get an overview of what it tests, and some browsers throw a ton of auth prompts at you)
  360. # [12:00] <annevk> hallvors: please do
  361. # [12:00] <annevk> hallvors: that test was more a proof of concept than an actual test :/
  362. # [12:00] <annevk> I should probably not have checked it in without understanding it as much as I do now
  363. # [12:01] <hallvors> - CORS and credentials in URL should send Authorization header *if* target server allows it and withCredentials is true, no?
  364. # [12:02] <annevk> ooh, what I'm not handling yet is the conflict of Authorization via setRequestHeader() and credentials via URL I just realized...
  365. # [12:02] <hallvors> (and if target server sends 401 or there is a 401 response cached)
  366. # [12:02] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  367. # [12:02] <hallvors> annevk: in XHR spec, right?
  368. # [12:02] <hallvors> that's too high level for Fetch, I presume.
  369. # [12:03] <annevk> no Fetch is the perfect place I think
  370. # [12:03] <annevk> it'll get the headers and the URL so it can make a sensible decision
  371. # [12:03] <annevk> whatever sensible is :)
  372. # [12:04] <hallvors> IMO header should "win"
  373. # [12:04] <hallvors> because from JS authors PoV, it's set later
  374. # [12:04] <annevk> well I guess if you set a header you don't wait for challenge
  375. # [12:04] <annevk> so I guess in a way that's already handled
  376. # [12:05] <annevk> back to your question...
  377. # [12:07] <annevk> hallvors: so yeah, I think we could allow that. My main question with CORS and URL credentials is whether it's a lot of additional complexity and whether that'll actually be used or whether we're just wasting implementer resources...
  378. # [12:09] <hallvors> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=1355
  379. # [12:09] <hallvors> changed handling of cached credentials (per your wiki notes)
  380. # [12:10] <hallvors> IMO it doesn't seem to add a lot of complexity.. but we could of course request a small implementor review for this.
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  384. # [12:19] <annevk> hallvors: you're missing the entry point of no supplied credentials and getting a 401 back
  385. # [12:19] <annevk> hallvors: and getting a 401 back with a malformed WWW-Authenticate header or some such
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  387. # [12:20] <hallvors> shouldn't that just be passed on to the JS?
  388. # [12:20] <annevk> no we prompt
  389. # [12:22] <hallvors> I think we should avoid that if possible..
  390. # [12:22] <hallvors> (and by "if possible" I mean "if it has no compat impact"..)
  391. # [12:22] <annevk> pretty sure we have to prompt
  392. # [12:23] <annevk> I think we also prompt if the credentials turn out to be incorrect
  393. # [12:23] <darobin> SteveF: you should be good to go with https://github.com/w3c/aria-in-html
  394. # [12:24] <annevk> hallvors: also, I think if you set the Authorization header, for cross-origin, you don't need withCredentials to be true and the server to say both Allow-Credentials and opting in for that header...
  395. # [12:27] <hallvors> Hm.. need to think about that. It should be an easier concept (and implementation) to treat all credentials equally, but in the scheme right now setting an Authorization header and not setting .withCredentials means a cross-domain request is just terminated.
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  397. # [12:32] <annevk> setting an Authorization header is just very different from using open() -> URL credentials
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  399. # [12:35] <hallvors> Agree, to some extent. But then it would be easier to not apply .withCredentials to HTTP auth at all
  400. # [12:35] <SteveF> darobin: thanks
  401. # [12:35] <hallvors> so cross-origin HTTP auth would depend only on whether target server says it accepts Authorization
  402. # [12:36] <hallvors> (effectively .withCredentials would then be .withCookies I guess)
  403. # [12:37] <hallvors> (it's already a bit confusing to have both anonymous flag and .withCredentials. It's not really obvious why both are needed.)
  404. # [12:39] <hallvors> annevk: http://www.lucidchart.com/invitations/accept/518393da-9438-47e2-9d30-08f60a000d50
  405. # [12:40] <annevk> anonymous flag does more
  406. # [12:41] <SteveF> darobin: what should i be calling the spec doc?
  407. # [12:41] <hallvors> hides Origin:
  408. # [12:41] <annevk> we also never prompt for cross-origin
  409. # [12:41] <annevk> at the moment
  410. # [12:41] <SteveF> darobin: Overview,html?
  411. # [12:42] <annevk> that's why URL credentials are not handled for CORS
  412. # [12:42] <darobin> SteveF: nah, use index.html
  413. # [12:42] <SteveF> ok thanks
  414. # [12:42] <darobin> Overview.html is an antique W3C convention that dates back to when the world hadn't settled on index.html
  415. # [12:42] <annevk> anonymous flag sort of forces all requests to be CORS requests, whereas withCredentials only takes effect for those requests that are actually cross-origin
  416. # [12:43] <annevk> (fetch makes this somewhat clearer I think)
  417. # [12:43] <SteveF> darobin: :-)
  418. # [12:43] <hallvors> why is that distinction required?
  419. # [12:43] <SteveF> darobin: all i need to do now is get the editors draft url redirected right?
  420. # [12:43] <annevk> hallvors: say withCredentials is false
  421. # [12:44] <hallvors> i.e. could we say .withCredentials defaults to true for local, false for CORS but can be set to the other value?
  422. # [12:44] <annevk> hallvors: I request same-origin /test which redirects to http://cross-origin.example/test
  423. # [12:44] <annevk> hallvors: the first request will have credentials, the second won't
  424. # [12:44] <hallvors> (and allow setRequestHeader('Origin', 'about:blank') )
  425. # [12:44] <darobin> SteveF: you can do that with an .htaccess
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  427. # [12:44] <annevk> hallvors: however, with the anonymous flag set, neither would
  428. # [12:44] <annevk> hallvors: that's not a valid value for Origin
  429. # [12:45] <SteveF> darobin: me dumb, ok will check it out its current url is https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/aria-unofficial/raw-file/tip/index.html
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  431. # [12:45] <darobin> SteveF: I wouldn't worry too much about that
  432. # [12:45] <SteveF> OK
  433. # [12:46] <darobin> SteveF: just including a link to the new in a warning box on the old is fine too — in fact it may be better as it keeps history and all
  434. # [12:46] <SteveF> darobin: and get other editors access
  435. # [12:46] <SteveF> darobin: is that something I can do myself?
  436. # [12:47] <hallvors> Oh, it's "referrer source" wich isn't exactly Origin..
  437. # [12:47] <hallvors> If the anonymous flag is set, the URL "about:blank", and the referrer source otherwise.
  438. # [12:48] * hallvors keeps stumbling across the XHR-Fetch line
  439. # [12:48] <annevk> in the end XHR will just be a light wrapper around Fetch
  440. # [12:49] <annevk> it's the legacy API for Fetch (history rewritten)
  441. # [12:49] <hallvors> anyway, it's your view that for XHR auth, .withCredentials should only apply to cached stuff (i.e. from earlier manual input)?
  442. # [12:51] <annevk> even that felt somewhat dodgy I've to say
  443. # [12:51] <annevk> having withCredentials for cookies only and just ignoring URL credentials always might be more sensible?
  444. # [12:52] <annevk> ugh
  445. # [12:52] <hallvors> I'd support that
  446. # [12:52] <hallvors> just to simplify implementations..
  447. # [12:53] <annevk> yeah, I guess we should ask though, how often people use HTTP auth
  448. # [12:53] <annevk> shall I email webapps and do a tweet?
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  451. # [12:54] <hallvors> annevk: could you click the lucidchart URL and look at the schema now?
  452. # [12:54] <hallvors> (scroll up for the URL :-p)
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  455. # [12:58] <annevk> complex :)
  456. # [12:58] <hallvors> The relevant question is how often people use HTTP Auth *with* XHR, especially cross-origin :-p
  457. # [12:59] <hallvors> ..and how often they use XHR to a HTTP Auth guarded URL *and* want the end user to input user name and password manually (instead of having it hard-coded in the JS)
  458. # [13:00] <hallvors> (Actually it is slightly simplified by removing .withCredentials :))
  459. # [13:00] <darobin> SteveF: you need to give me the GH accounts of the other editors, unless you can seem to modify access yourself under Setting -> Teams
  460. # [13:00] <annevk> hallvors: ah yes, you'd prolly never want the prompting
  461. # [13:01] <SteveF> darobin:ok thanks will see if not will give you names
  462. # [13:01] <hallvors> I would very much prefer not having to spec any sort of prompting :-p
  463. # [13:01] <annevk> hallvors: okay, so that argues for cross-origin -> yes to go directly to done
  464. # [13:01] <annevk> hallvors: well, we have prompting already
  465. # [13:02] <hallvors> but I don't think XHR+HTTP Auth+prompting is used in the wild
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  467. # [13:02] <hallvors> so we could try to kill it
  468. # [13:02] * Quits: codeho (~codeho@178-26-87-50-dynip.superkabel.de) (Quit: codeho)
  469. # [13:02] <annevk> I don't think that matter much to be honest
  470. # [13:02] <annevk> and it would be inconsistent with <img>
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  472. # [13:03] <hallvors> if it's not about compat , what would stop us from killing it?
  473. # [13:03] <annevk> I don't think we should have such arbitrary differences between <img> and XHR
  474. # [13:03] <hallvors> non-violence preferences at the W3C?
  475. # [13:03] <hallvors> :)
  476. # [13:03] <hallvors> I think IMG and XHR are pretty different
  477. # [13:03] <annevk> not fetch-wise
  478. # [13:04] <annevk> that's the whole point of fetch, to look at these features together
  479. # [13:04] <hallvors> if fetch has impact on UI, it needs to consider what good UI is
  480. # [13:04] <annevk> and not make exceptions because the author of API Y thinks he knows better than the author of API Z
  481. # [13:04] <hallvors> this is probably the only place Fetch requires stuff from the UI
  482. # [13:04] <annevk> there's two places
  483. # [13:04] <annevk> HTTP auth, and HTTP proxy auth
  484. # [13:05] <annevk> and both are because of HTTP being silly
  485. # [13:05] <annevk> and both are legacy
  486. # [13:05] <annevk> and both should not be on/off on a per API basis I think without some proper consideration
  487. # [13:05] <hallvors> IMO it would make it a lot easier to have good UI if we say that only a top-level URL loaded in a window can trigger auth prompts
  488. # [13:05] <annevk> (and in fact, proxy auth can prolly be never off)
  489. # [13:06] <annevk> yes, but legacy
  490. # [13:06] <hallvors> (proxy auth is a bit different.. needs to happen on first request whatever that is)
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  492. # [13:06] <hallvors> legacy / compat might require supporting HTTP auth also for main URL in a frame/iframe
  493. # [13:07] <hallvors> (and of course *sending* credentials for IMG et all if within a realm with known credentials)
  494. # [13:07] <hallvors> but I'm pretty sure no compat considerations force us to support prompting for IMG
  495. # [13:07] <annevk> I've encountered cases where the <img> would be behind credentials and the main document would not be
  496. # [13:07] <hallvors> really?
  497. # [13:08] <annevk> yeah, W3C has had stuff like that
  498. # [13:08] <annevk> prolly as legacy as their Overview.html stuff, but still
  499. # [13:08] <hallvors> I've seen bug reports for Opera because it prompted for inline resources and other browsers didn't
  500. # [13:08] <hallvors> we can ignore the W3C
  501. # [13:08] <annevk> oh no
  502. # [13:08] <annevk> all browsers prompt: http://dump.testsuite.org/xhr/auth/
  503. # [13:08] <hallvors> it's not the real world :-p
  504. # [13:09] <hallvors> weird.. I have certainly seen cases where Opera popped up unexpected prompts and others didn't
  505. # [13:09] * Parts: shwetank (~shwetank@122.161.73.32) ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
  506. # [13:12] <annevk> nice to have someone else care about fetch for a couple of hours though
  507. # [13:12] <annevk> it's been lonely
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  509. # [13:14] * Ms2ger sends annevk some beer
  510. # [13:14] * Joins: PyNick (~PyNick@d68079.upc-d.chello.nl)
  511. # [13:14] <annevk> Ms2ger: heh, thanks, but we've got a full fridge of that, no locks
  512. # [13:16] <jgraham> puiblic-script-cood needs a policy that discourages +1 type messages
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  516. # [13:17] <jgraham> *public-script-coord
  517. # [13:18] <jgraham> At least I didn't call it public-script-cod-piece
  518. # [13:18] <jgraham> *pubic
  519. # [13:18] <hallvors> argh. can't find the bug(s) I remember
  520. # [13:18] <jgraham> Fuck, now I typod the typo
  521. # [13:18] <hallvors> maybe it was just server side sniffing..? :-(
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  523. # [13:18] <hallvors> it's hard to make tpyos deliberatley
  524. # [13:19] <Ms2ger> hallvors, server side sniffing? Surely that would never happen to Opera
  525. # [13:19] <jgraham> Anyway, to recap, messages like "I strongly [dis]agree with X" or "±1" should be considered off topic and subject to censure.
  526. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> Objection!
  527. # [13:21] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@node-591.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net)
  528. # [13:22] <hallvors> Ms2ger: I actually expected this to get retweeted more: https://twitter.com/hallvord/status/327322391049019394 :-p
  529. # [13:22] * Ms2ger looks at public-script-coord
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  531. # [13:22] <Ms2ger> Yeah, no
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  533. # [13:23] <Ms2ger> Looks like all the useful threads there are started by bz
  534. # [13:24] <hallvors> Annevk: great if you tweet and E-mail trying to gather some feedback..
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  536. # [13:26] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/PWET-statement-of-principles.html hahaha
  537. # [13:26] <jgraham> "As of 2012, this DOCUMENT IS OBSOLETE, PLEASE SEE OUR NEW CODE (member-only during development, public eventually)"
  538. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> I guess (most of) the W3C does public things like Google does open source
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  548. # [13:49] <zewt> Ms2ger: as a PR stunt, with as many roadblocks to prevent people from annoyingly actually using them?
  549. # [13:49] <Ms2ger> Sounds right
  550. # [13:50] <zewt> <- has had a fix for a really annoying bluetooth stack bug in android sitting in a local repo somewhere since like 2.1, way too hard to try to push it upstream
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  563. # [14:27] <annevk> hallvors: oh, I think I'm convinced
  564. # [14:27] <annevk> hallvors: but I guess I can email a summary
  565. # [14:28] <hallvors> OK. Honestly, I'm not sure what I convinced you of right now :)
  566. # [14:29] <hallvors> so if you send out a summary I'll have to read it :-D
  567. # [14:30] <annevk> hallvors: well with withCredentials being for cookies, and not using the "authentication entry" or URL credentials for CORS
  568. # [14:31] <hallvors> OK :-)
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  571. # [14:32] <hallvors> darobin: w3c-test.org runs PHP as an Apache 2.0 Filter rather than a Handler
  572. # [14:32] <hallvors> maybe there is a bug in PHP's Filter setup?
  573. # [14:33] <darobin> hallvors: you're debugging that with your l33t powers?
  574. # [14:33] <darobin> mmmm, actually that would likely make sense
  575. # [14:33] <hallvors> nah, just committed a phpinfo() file to my pull request ;-)
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  577. # [14:33] <darobin> lol
  578. # [14:33] <hallvors> http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/submissions/103/XMLHttpRequest/resources/info.php
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  580. # [14:36] <darobin> oooh, great, it has SOAP enabled!
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  583. # [14:45] <annevk> so I guess some setting in http://httpd.apache.org/docs/current/filter.html must be wrong
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  592. # [14:59] <annevk> hallvors: email sent
  593. # [15:02] <annevk> hallvors: tweet tweeted
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  595. # [15:02] <annevk> there's got to be a better way to say that
  596. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> twit twatted
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  598. # [15:03] <zcorpan> SteveF: sorry to wontfix your bugs, but really, the focus of html-differences is "differences from html4", not "differences between whatwg and w3c"
  599. # [15:04] <SteveF> zcorpan: no problem
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  601. # [15:05] <annevk> +1 to keeping it focused
  602. # [15:06] <annevk> hmm
  603. # [15:06] <annevk> blob URLs
  604. # [15:07] <zcorpan> (listing all differences between whatwg and w3c would be quite useful but should be a separate document)
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  606. # [15:07] <zewt> annevk: i'm ... trying, heh
  607. # [15:07] <annevk> yeah, I think SteveF is actually working on that
  608. # [15:07] <SteveF> yes I am
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  610. # [15:07] <zcorpan> nice
  611. # [15:08] <annevk> zewt: I dread even opening that thread, but it's one of the last ones I haven't...
  612. # [15:10] <zewt> it's just rehashing the same stuff again
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  614. # [15:11] <zcorpan> heh, consensus by general not caring :-)
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  616. # [15:23] <hallvors> annevk: "For CORS, we'd return to the caller right there" - what did you mean by this? It sounds like we basically would discard user/pass from open() or URL.
  617. # [15:24] <annevk> hallvors: you don't discard them necessarily, since you'd first do a challenge request and that'll return something and if that's a 401 you just tell the caller that and you never end up using user/pass
  618. # [15:25] <annevk> hallvors: it comes down to the same thing though
  619. # [15:25] <hallvors> But then there is no point in having user/pass arguments in the open() method??
  620. # [15:26] * hallvors this language is too hard, wants the W3C to move towards consensus by dancing
  621. # [15:26] <annevk> hallvors: right, for CORS there wouldn't be
  622. # [15:28] <annevk> hallvors: the only other thing we'd need I guess is a flag in XHR that'd allow you to request that kind of behavior for normal requests too so you don't get a prompt
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  624. # [15:29] <hallvors> So you want the only way to do HTTP auth for CORS requests to be to roll your own Authorization header?
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  626. # [15:33] <annevk> yes
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  628. # [15:34] <annevk> I believe that's currently the case too, in implementations
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  630. # [15:35] <hallvors> It's a surprising limitation to authors.
  631. # [15:35] <annevk> zewt: so they met for x hours and still haven't defined dereferencing? *sigh*
  632. # [15:36] <hallvors> at least I think it will cause questions like "why didn't I get access to that CORS-enabled file by passing the right user name and password to open()?"
  633. # [15:36] <annevk> zewt: I think part of the question is "the browser not doing anything with it"
  634. # [15:36] <annevk> zewt: that understanding might be flawed
  635. # [15:37] <annevk> hallvors: haven't seen them thus far
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  648. # [15:51] <hallvors> annevk: CORS uptake is good but it's not ubiquitous yet
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  653. # [15:55] <annevk> hallvors: yeah we'll have to see
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  656. # [15:58] * carwin|afk is now known as carwin
  657. # [15:59] <hallvors> I would still prefer to use user/pass in CORS requests if the server accepts Authorization headers. Seems to be more in line with what authors would expect. As you wanted to treat XHR and <img> the same way, I think doing this would also support your use case with <img> from a different HTTP - auth - protected origin better, no?
  658. # [15:59] * Parts: carwin (~carwin@unaffiliated/carwin)
  659. # [16:00] <annevk> <img> has a different path
  660. # [16:00] <annevk> tainted cross-origin, XHR cannot get there
  661. # [16:01] <annevk> tainted cross-origin would still do Auth
  662. # [16:01] <annevk> also, what you're saying does not quite work that way, as user/pass would require both preflight and 401, that seems like a hell of a lot of complexity for a marginal case
  663. # [16:03] <hallvors> it would be nice to remove that challenge-response mode too
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  665. # [16:03] <annevk> euh
  666. # [16:03] <annevk> that's part of the protocol
  667. # [16:04] <hallvors> and say that if JS provides user/pass we just send it :-p
  668. # [16:05] <hallvors> anyway, at the place in the algorithm we're discussing both preflight and 401 are already done
  669. # [16:06] <hallvors> so the only question is: re-try the request with an Authorization: based on the user/pass the script already gave us.. or give up and return the 401 response to the script?
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  671. # [16:06] <hallvors> The complexity is already in the protocol
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  673. # [16:07] <hallvors> We're just trying to decide if we're going to push some of the handling of that complexity over to the JS author.
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  678. # [16:17] <hallvors> (well, both preflight and 401 are done if we ensure we define this as a request that requires a preflight )
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  686. # [16:34] <annevk> right, the preflight is not done at all
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  688. # [16:35] <annevk> it sounds super tricky
  689. # [16:36] <annevk> try to explain it as a set of modifications to Fetch without hurting yourself in the process
  690. # [16:36] <annevk> (sorry for slow reply, had a meeting)
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  693. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> Damn meetings :)
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  698. # [16:41] <annevk> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/42434634433/we-welcome-anne-back-to-full-time-wage-slavery
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  710. # [17:17] <zcorpan> having looked through the commits for 5.1 for the past 8 months or so, the only things worth noting in html-differences were removal of hgroup and unforking of stuff
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  716. # [17:25] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  814. # [21:16] <MikeSmith> tantek: I added rel=discussion and rel=issues to the validator code and pushed it to the W3C validator
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  817. # [21:21] <tantek> nice. thanks MikeSmith.
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  835. # [22:15] <Hixie> as a head's up, i'm gonna be afk most of this month
  836. # [22:15] <Hixie> heads' up?
  837. # [22:16] <Hixie> heads-up?
  838. # [22:16] <Hixie> heads up?
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  842. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> heads-up
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  851. # [22:33] <GPHemsley> indeed, two words for the verb, one word (or hyphenated) for the noun: log in vs. login, set up vs. set up, etc.
  852. # [22:33] <GPHemsley> although I suppose "heads up" isn't a verb in the traditional sense
  853. # [22:33] <GPHemsley> it's more of a command
  854. # [22:33] <GPHemsley> as in "put your heads up"
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  856. # [22:34] <GPHemsley> but anyway
  857. # [22:34] <GPHemsley> the point is the same
  858. # [22:34] <GPHemsley> :)
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  864. # [22:43] <nimbu> TabAtkins: if you are celebrating formal friday i have a question for you
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  866. # [22:44] <nimbu> TabAtkins: has the idea of using only constants been considered as a step 1 of custom properties.
  867. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by that? Do you mean that the variables can't be mutated by JS? Or do you mean that they're global rather than tree-scoped, so there's no cascade?
  868. # [22:47] <nimbu> TabAtkins: i meant the second
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  870. # [22:48] <nimbu> TabAtkins: but i am guessing the first is true for custom properties as they stand no?
  871. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Custom properties are just properties, so they can be mutated by JS like any other property, yes.
  872. # [22:48] <nimbu> right.
  873. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> The second was of course explored, many times by many people, both inside and outside the CSSWG. It wasn't until I made tree-scoped variables that the WG finally decided they were useful enough to accept.
  874. # [22:49] <nimbu> :||||||
  875. # [22:49] <nimbu> okay
  876. # [22:49] <nimbu> i wil dig thro the emails
  877. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> See: every single variables proposal *ever* before I finally got mine through.
  878. # [22:51] <nimbu> ahahha
  879. # [22:51] <nimbu> :(
  880. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Why?
  881. # [22:52] <nimbu> nothingggg
  882. # [22:52] <nimbu> i am just looking
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  920. # [23:56] <Hixie> abarth: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19662#c7
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  923. # Session Close: Sat May 04 00:00:00 2013

The end :)