/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 10 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Not with x-, no. But with "starts with -", they would.
  4. # [00:00] <annevk> Why, the ones we'd mint would not start with -
  5. # [00:00] <annevk> And the ones we'd mint would affect the parser of selectors...
  6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Depends on if we'd set that as the required pattern or not. ^_^
  7. # [00:01] <annevk> Well that ship has kinda already sailed with form controls which we're explaining in terms of this...
  8. # [00:01] <annevk> And if you don't think that ship has sailed, they could both use ::part :)
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  10. # [00:02] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  11. # [00:03] <esprehn> ::part seems pretty weird
  12. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> Form controls currently use a "starts with - and a prefix" pattern.
  13. # [00:04] <annevk> Hmm... http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#pseudo-elements
  14. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> I think IE might implement ::value. The other three don't exist, but tantek is being stubborn and won't remove them.
  15. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> We also have ::placeholder.
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  17. # [00:07] <annevk> I guess I could be okay with ::- but it seems kinda magic...
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  19. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Current element naming is kinda magic, too, since we only require that it has a dash in the name somewhere.
  20. # [00:08] <tantek> TabAtkins - which would you like me to remove?
  21. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> ::choices, ::repeat-index, and ::repeat-item
  22. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> They won't survive CR, I guarantee.
  23. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> So might as well chop them now.
  24. # [00:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: note that there we actively try to avoid clashes between what authors and specs can introduce
  25. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> And xforms is dead.
  26. # [00:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: which is contrary to this ::- proposal
  27. # [00:10] <tantek> TabAtkins - not stubbornness, just haven't edited the draft to do so yet
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  29. # [00:10] <tantek> consider them gone
  30. # [00:10] <tantek> they've been at risk for so long
  31. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> tantek: Long-term lack of editting looks like stubbornness from the outside. ^_^
  32. # [00:10] <tantek> and no-one cares to implement
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  34. # [00:10] <tantek> TabAtkins, never ascribe to stubborness what you can ascribe to laziness.
  35. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> tantek: Also: I'm half a bottle of wine in, so I may be a little more abrasive than usual right now.
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  37. # [00:10] <tantek> (or intertia)
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  39. # [00:10] <tantek> inertia even
  40. # [00:11] <tantek> btw, speaking of removing things, the TV people are still complaining about the impending axing of the nav-* directional properties.
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  42. # [00:11] <annevk> heh
  43. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Produce a browser that someone cares about, and we can talk.
  44. # [00:11] <tantek> btw, even ::value has not shown to be especially well adopted, might punt that to CSS4-UI also
  45. # [00:12] <tantek> hence the note
  46. # [00:12] <annevk> it seems better to nuke those pseudo-elements indeed
  47. # [00:12] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  48. # [00:13] <tantek> yeah we'll just keep going to last call maybe
  49. # [00:13] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  50. # [00:13] <annevk> and instead of from the perspective of CSS, consider what we need from the perspective of web componentizing form controls
  51. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> I'd keep ::value around until the f2f (and put an agenda item in for it)
  52. # [00:13] <a-ja> aren't ::value and ::placeholder kinda tied together?
  53. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> a-ja: Maybe!
  54. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Or rather, they *could* be, if we want to take them in that direction.
  55. # [00:13] <tantek> TabAtkins - nah, hence postponing to CSS4-UI rather than outright dropping (unlike the other three)
  56. # [00:13] <tantek> no need to keep it in 3
  57. # [00:14] <tantek> Tab are you going to be around at I/O?
  58. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> tantek: I'll be in the south bay for I/O.
  59. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> ie. not at i/o.
  60. # [00:15] <tantek> remote i/o
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  64. # [00:19] <annevk> DHTML: document.write(); Ajax: XMLHttpRequest; HTML5: CSS3
  65. # [00:19] <annevk> aah forgot Web 2.0
  66. # [00:20] <annevk> Web 2.0: SEO
  67. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> web 2.-: jquery
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  77. # [00:34] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: what specifies the case-sensitivity of counter *names*?
  78. # [00:34] <SimonSapin> coundn’t
  79. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: The fact that they're a user-defined identifier?
  80. # [00:34] <SimonSapin> couldn’t find it in 2.1, or lists 3
  81. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> I'm probably not invoking the grammar properly right now.
  82. # [00:35] <SimonSapin> hum, ok
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  84. # [00:36] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: yeah, should be <custom-ident> (defined in Values 3) rather than <ident>
  85. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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  87. # [00:38] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: do you have it written somewhere, or should I send this to www-style?
  88. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> No, go ahead and send it to www-style so I'll pick it up when I'm next ready to work on those specs.
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  101. # [01:01] <annevk> TabAtkins: are you free Monday?
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  103. # [01:01] <annevk> TabAtkins: or maybe Sunday or some such?
  104. # [01:01] <nimbu> annevk: are you still here?!
  105. # [01:01] <annevk> nimbu: uhuh
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  107. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> annevk: I'm working with fantasai Monday, but otherwise kinda free.
  108. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Sunday I'm available in the morning/early afternoon. After that my wife's home.
  109. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Also: were you on the Google campus this afternoon?
  110. # [01:03] <annevk> TabAtkins: wasn't
  111. # [01:03] <annevk> TabAtkins: Sunday morning would be nice, will ping you around then
  112. # [01:04] <hober> annevk: fyi the hangover helped put me in the right mood for wednesday's dnt meeting, thanks! :)
  113. # [01:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: oh actually, might get tricky too
  114. # [01:04] <annevk> hober: hehehe
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  123. # [01:11] <zewt> gar where the heck did blocking sites in google search results go
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  172. # [02:21] <annevk> "We don't want the Web to be a bunch of cordoned-off apps." I wonder if Jeff Jaffe heard of SysApps.
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  185. # [02:55] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/QA/2013/05/perspectives_on_encrypted_medi.html
  186. # [02:55] <zewt> uninteresting
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  188. # [02:57] <karlcow> Thus Spoke Zarathustra
  189. # [02:58] <zewt> i find it hard to believe anyone arguing for drm in an open web (an obviously fundamental incompatibility) doesn't have a personal stake in the matter, and arguing against it is, well, obvious; so arguments on both sides are uninteresting to me
  190. # [03:00] <zewt> (it's also an ancient argument, not significantly changed by the web context, so I'd be surprised if there's any new content in it this time around)
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  418. # [11:48] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yes, I think I agree with your reading of the spec
  419. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> Thanks :)
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  435. # [13:07] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/QA/2013/05/perspectives_on_encrypted_medi.html#c4842306
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  459. # [14:21] <Ms2ger> jgraham, do you know if Opera has tests for form.foo?
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  461. # [14:23] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't know
  462. # [14:24] <jgraham> I might remember to look later
  463. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> I would be grateful if you could
  464. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> Our code for that is so full of suck... :/
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  470. # [14:44] <Ms2ger> Consider http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2245
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  474. # [15:08] <GPHemsley> Is there precedent (that I can look at) for using ABNF in WHATWG specs?
  475. # [15:08] <darobin_> GPHemsley: yes, but no one has lived to tell the tale
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  478. # [15:10] <Ms2ger> Does http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-button-element.html#publickeyandchallenge count as abnf?
  479. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: seems like it ise
  480. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> eh or does ABNF use braces?
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  482. # [15:12] <GPHemsley> I was referring specifically to RFC 5234: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5234
  483. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> there was some other ABNF in the spec
  484. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> maybe still there
  485. # [15:12] * MikeSmith tries to remember what
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  487. # [15:15] * GPHemsley also wonders if he should distinguish between "well-formed" MIME types and "valid" MIME types
  488. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: that sounds odd
  489. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> I'd wonder who cares about the distinction
  490. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> not implementors
  491. # [15:17] <GPHemsley> k
  492. # [15:17] <GPHemsley> in other news, there is no .abnf class in the spec CSS file
  493. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> so I guess whatever other ABNF Hixie had in the there before, it's gone now
  494. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> ah I remember
  495. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> it was for the text content of script elements
  496. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> or maybe style elements
  497. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> can't remember which
  498. # [15:19] <jgraham> If you think you want to use ABNF you are probably doing it wrong
  499. # [15:19] <darobin> definitely
  500. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/scripting-1.html#restrictions-for-contents-of-script-elements
  501. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> that is BNFish still
  502. # [15:20] <GPHemsley> that is precisely the ABNF I was referring to
  503. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  504. # [15:21] <GPHemsley> though I note it doesn't have special styling
  505. # [15:21] <GPHemsley> MikeSmith: Thanks for finding it
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  507. # [15:21] <GPHemsley> jgraham, darobin: Care to elaborate/enlighten?
  508. # [15:21] <darobin> GPHemsley: ABNF is fine for describing things like valid document constraints
  509. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> yeah that's the case here
  510. # [15:22] <darobin> but it tends to suck if what you want is to describe implementation behaviour
  511. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> it's not defining parsing here
  512. # [15:22] <darobin> GPHemsley: as MikeSmith says, you *don't* want it to define parsing rules
  513. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> well it also suck if you have to write a parser based on it anyway
  514. # [15:23] <darobin> but it's good to describe constraints on content
  515. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> I did have to write a parser for the validator based on that ABNF
  516. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> and it was was PITA
  517. # [15:23] <darobin> yeah
  518. # [15:23] <darobin> supposedly you could generate one
  519. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> right, in theory
  520. # [15:23] <GPHemsley> in your defense, though, it has rules like "any string that doesn't contain a substring that matches not-data1"
  521. # [15:23] <darobin> but I've never seen a tool that really worked well for the languages I was interested in
  522. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> darobin: yep, I tried that in this case but gave up after running into nothing but fail
  523. # [15:24] <darobin> had the same problem with WebIDL
  524. # [15:25] <darobin> ended up hand rolling because none of the generators made any sense
  525. # [15:25] <GPHemsley> Well, the alternative is to have something like this, which seems like overkill: http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#parse-a-mime-type
  526. # [15:25] <darobin> GPHemsley: if you want to constrain how an implementation behaves, and you want error handling, you need stuff like that
  527. # [15:25] <GPHemsley> Also, I'm currently using the hodgepodge definition from HTTP to define what a MIME type is: http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#valid-mime-type
  528. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> we could just replace that ABNF with something based on the state-machine code I wrote for it in the validator. And then Hixie could run that through his pre-processor that turns the code into semi-prose.
  529. # [15:26] <jgraham> GPHemsley: There are two valid approaches for speccing parsing algorithms that I have seen: explicit state machines and prose recursive descent parsers
  530. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> I much prefer http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#parse-a-mime-type even if/when it seems like overkill
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  532. # [15:27] <GPHemsley> If I rewrite the definition of "valid MIME type" and related terms using my own ABNF, it would simplify the definitions (and the dependencies) and I think it would making defining parsing easier
  533. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> hmm
  534. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> it would not make it easier to implement man
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  536. # [15:27] <jgraham> Most of the difficulty in parsing is handling edge cases
  537. # [15:27] <GPHemsley> I don't think it would make it any harder, either, though
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  539. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> well only one person has to define the parsing behavior, so optimizing the spec to make things easier for one person doesn't seem like such a great plan
  540. # [15:29] <GPHemsley> I do wonder what makes it difficult, though
  541. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> browser implementors at least are very happy without ABNF and with state-machine-type definitions instead
  542. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> IETFers are a different story of course
  543. # [15:29] <GPHemsley> but ABNF can be used to define state machines, can't it?
  544. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: look back at what darobin said
  545. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> especially about handling errors
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  547. # [15:30] <GPHemsley> What I have in mind is something like "if it doesn't match ABNF-A, do X"
  548. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> hmm
  549. # [15:31] <GPHemsley> I don't plan to just say "here's the ABNF, bye"
  550. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> as somebody who may need to be implementing parsing for this, I would not like that much
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  552. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> that's kind of the worst of both worlds
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  554. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> I think you are likely to make everybody even less happy with that than now
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  556. # [15:33] <jgraham> Yeah, unless there is exactly one error path, and even then, that sounds horrendous
  557. # [15:33] <GPHemsley> but isn't it essentially just a regexp?
  558. # [15:34] <jgraham> No actual browser when confronted with parsing problem thinks "hey, I know, I'll use regexps"
  559. # [15:34] <Ms2ger> Actually...
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  561. # [15:34] * jgraham suddenly becomes very afraid of the Gecko code
  562. # [15:34] <GPHemsley> ^_^
  563. # [15:34] <Ms2ger> :D
  564. # [15:35] <GPHemsley> OK, so, then I have to ask: Do you all take issue with "valid MIME type" as it's currently defined?
  565. # [15:35] <jgraham> But seriously, bonsai or it didn't happen
  566. # [15:36] <GPHemsley> The link again: http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#valid-mime-type
  567. # [15:36] <GPHemsley> " A valid MIME type is a media-type, as defined in HTTP/1.1 or its successor, and is made up in part by a type and a subtype. The MIME type portion of a valid MIME type is the string represented by concatenating type, the string "/", and subtype. [HTTP]
  568. # [15:36] <GPHemsley> The MIME type portion of a valid MIME type excludes all parameters and is case-insensitive. [HTTP] "
  569. # [15:36] <GPHemsley> That's the part that I'm planning to replace with ABNF
  570. # [15:37] <jgraham> (I guess for the past half decade or so I mean mxr, but bonsai sounded better)
  571. # [15:37] <GPHemsley> heh
  572. # [15:37] <GPHemsley> I was like, "Do we really need to go back to CVS for this?"
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  574. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: making something essentially be a regexp is not a great goal. We have some code in the validator for parsing <time> that is an actual regexp where we do capturing groups and then check to see which capturing-group matches failed. i.e., pretty much what you've described
  575. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> and it's nasty
  576. # [15:39] <GPHemsley> Hmm
  577. # [15:39] <GPHemsley> OK
  578. # [15:39] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I guess I was thinking about pattern="" calling into the JS engine, which is kinda something else
  579. # [15:39] <GPHemsley> can you point me to a pretty example, then? :)
  580. # [15:39] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  581. # [15:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Right, in that case the input is a regexp, so there's not that much choice
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  584. # [15:40] <jgraham> Obviously pattern should have taken BNF
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  588. # [15:42] <darobin> GPHemsley: the thing is, in most cases you can't have isABNF || error()
  589. # [15:43] <darobin> what you want is ABNFConstruct1 || error1(), ABNFConstruct2 || error2(), etc.
  590. # [15:43] <darobin> actually if we had a language that did that nicely it could be sweet
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  592. # [15:43] <GPHemsley> Well, yeah. I plan to use multiple ABNF rules
  593. # [15:43] <darobin> GPHemsley: at some point you're getting very close to prose then :)
  594. # [15:43] <GPHemsley> Perhaps I should just write it and let you all criticize it after the fact :P
  595. # [15:47] <darobin> GPHemsley: that's the right attitude :)
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  621. # [16:35] <GPHemsley> Do WHATWG specs generally have abstracts?
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  624. # [16:39] <darobin> GPHemsley: some do, some don't
  625. # [16:39] <darobin> (IIRC)
  626. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I was wondering if you remembered to look for those tests ;)
  627. # [16:39] <darobin> GPHemsley: using an abstract will simplify the life of whoever gets to steal your spec on behalf of a W3C WG
  628. # [16:39] <GPHemsley> Ah, so if I want to discourage that, I should remove it? ^_^
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  630. # [16:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: No, but now was a good time to remind me. Looking coming right up
  631. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> \o/
  632. # [16:40] <jgraham> I wouldn't get too excited
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  634. # [16:41] <GPHemsley> darobin: Do you have any sense as to which portion is the majority?
  635. # [16:41] * GPHemsley feels like the mimesniff abstract is mostly redundant to the introduction
  636. # [16:41] <darobin> GPHemsley: if you want to discourage that you should submit your spec to the HTML WG when it gets its new open license :)
  637. # [16:42] <darobin> GPHemsley: but overall, no, I don't know what the majority is
  638. # [16:42] <GPHemsley> Also, does anyone have any distinction between "key word" and "keyword"?
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  640. # [16:43] <darobin> I think you want the latter
  641. # [16:43] <GPHemsley> darobin: I think I do, too, but that would go against the status quo
  642. # [16:44] <GPHemsley> (RFC 2119 uses "key word", and that is propagated to specs mentioning RFC 2119)
  643. # [16:45] <darobin> GPHemsley: ah, dunno then. I'd still use keyword at least outside of that context
  644. # [16:45] <GPHemsley> I'd like to use keyword inside of that context ;)
  645. # [16:46] <darobin> has anyone looked at making &apos: accepted in text/html as well? I thought it was but apparently not
  646. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born
  647. # [16:46] <darobin> GPHemsley: I wouldn't sweat it
  648. # [16:46] <darobin> MikeSmith: EME spec? :)
  649. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> heh
  650. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> well, now that you bring that up: http://www.w3.org/News/2013#entry-9813
  651. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media/
  652. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> the rest is future history
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  654. # [16:50] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Well I found a file called Testcase%20showing%20the%20problem..html
  655. # [16:50] <Ms2ger> Heh
  656. # [16:51] <jgraham> Which isn'ta testcase and doesn't show the problem, but does seem to be related to named getters on forms
  657. # [16:51] <jgraham> Apart from that I'm not seeing much
  658. # [16:51] <jgraham> Asking zcorpan or hallvors on Monday might be a good strategy
  659. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> Sounds like I'm trying to coerce baku_ into writing them, then :)
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  803. # [21:22] <GPHemsley> X-Content-Type-Options is now specced: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2013-May/039561.html
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  816. # [21:51] <annevk> GPHemsley: I don't think that's what actually happens for <img>
  817. # [21:52] <annevk> GPHemsley: I'm pretty sure that image/png will still decode image/gif
  818. # [21:52] <annevk> GPHemsley: because of the way image decoders work
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  840. # [22:32] <GPHemsley> annevk: I'm not sure what you mean. How does what you said contradict what I said?
  841. # [22:33] * GPHemsley is starting to wonder whether he remembers how to put thoughts into words.
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  845. # [22:43] <annevk> GPHemsley: X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff still works for image/gif labeled as image/png I think
  846. # [22:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: I think the spec has that wrong, or did you test that case?
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  886. # [23:57] * Quits: zdobersek (~zdobersek@cpe-77.38.31.63.cable.t-1.si) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  889. # Session Close: Sat May 11 00:00:00 2013

The end :)