/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-20 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  53. # [04:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: CSS needs to define somewhere "origin of style sheet" (which is the origin of the document that included the style sheet)
  54. # [04:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: then CSS Fonts and such can just use that
  55. # [04:19] <annevk> zcorpan: your "Sync cssom specs" commit to xref broke stuff
  56. # [04:19] <annevk> zcorpan: e.g. it doesn't seem like there's separate references for the getclientrects methods anymore
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  93. # [08:19] <TabAtkins> annevk: kk, can do. Looks like Cascade might be the best place to put it.
  94. # [08:19] <TabAtkins> Since it defined @import
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  96. # [08:22] <hsivonen> what are the normal working hours for #sysreq? Boston office hours on weekdays?
  97. # [08:26] <TabAtkins> Likely.
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  104. # [08:37] <annevk> hsivonen: also France
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  118. # [08:55] <TabAtkins> annevk: Thoughts on issue 2 at <http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#the-input-byte-stream>?
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  122. # [09:06] <annevk> TabAtkins: fwiw, TC39 crowd dislikes CSSVariablesDeclaration-type interfaces
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  124. # [09:07] <annevk> TabAtkins: because of Object.prototype
  125. # [09:07] * annevk looks at issue 2
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  127. # [09:08] <annevk> TabAtkins: I think hsivonen might have a better informed opinion on that
  128. # [09:09] <annevk> TabAtkins: it's not entirely clear to me that restriction would make things safer
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  132. # [09:31] <annevk> Hmm, serialization of arbitrary CSS token streams as required by CSS Variables also seems interesting
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  139. # [09:51] <Ms2ger> annevk, I think that's all, then. Want to fix the other bug too? :)
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  174. # [10:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: that one requires more thinking from what I remember
  175. # [10:12] <jgraham> heycam seems to be suck in some superposition of states
  176. # [10:13] <annevk> In other news, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-texttracks/2013May/0016.html makes me sad. "it might inform a discussion of TTML profiles" is like a double red flag.
  177. # [10:13] <annevk> TTML is bad. Profiles also bad. Combined, ...
  178. # [10:16] <annevk> jgraham: he's here
  179. # [10:17] <jgraham> Wavefunction must have collapsed
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  184. # [10:27] <ambv> jgraham: I got some feedback during the conference. First of all, it seems people expect html5lib to provide a custom tree format. I directed them towards bs4 for a straightforward querying API.
  185. # [10:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: so yeah, the idea was that HTML would invoke the "set parser"
  186. # [10:27] <annevk> Ms2ger: e.g. "Either when an element is created that has a class attribute or when an element's class attribute is set to a value other than the empty string, set the element's classes to the new value, parsed." is what DOM uses itself
  187. # [10:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: if that is missing anything or is not convenient enough, that'd be good to know
  188. # [10:30] <jgraham> ambv: Interesting. I mean that doesn't make much sense, but I see why people would think that
  189. # [10:30] <jgraham> Because it's traditional for libs to tightly couple parsing and representation
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  191. # [10:31] <ambv> yes, I share your view that it's great to have those decoupled.
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  193. # [10:31] <ambv> jgraham: Another thing, it seems we're currently very slow compared to other parsers and this makes for some poor PR, aka FUD.
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  195. # [10:31] <ambv> So increasing performance would be a good target for post-1.0 releases.
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  203. # [10:57] <jgraham> ambv: Well it's no secret that we're slow. Not sure it's possible to squeeze that much more performance out of pure python
  204. # [10:57] <jgraham> Or at least, we have spent non-trivial effort benchmarking it in the past
  205. # [10:59] <jgraham> Reading through one character at a time just isn't very efficient. But that's needed for a compliant implementation.
  206. # [10:59] <jgraham> Really I think the effort would be better spent on writing a C implementation in libxml2
  207. # [10:59] <jgraham> Then lxml.html would be fast and non-sucky
  208. # [10:59] <ambv> We can at least work with the PyPy guys to make it JIT compile better.
  209. # [10:59] <jgraham> Yeah, that makes sense
  210. # [11:00] <jgraham> Especially since lxml on PyPy doesn't seem to work so well
  211. # [11:00] <ambv> Currently for huge documents it's 5x faster than CPython but for typical documents it's 2x … slower.
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  213. # [11:01] <ambv> jgraham: lxml still is 30x faster than html5lib on PyPy ;) but I guess there's much potential in improving html5lib performance. it would be big news for both html5lib and PyPy if we got the performance on par with lxml.
  214. # [11:01] <ambv> jgraham: https://github.com/ambv/html5lib-microbench
  215. # [11:02] <SimonSapin> jgraham: in libxml2, do you mean incremental conformance improvements on the existing parser, or a brand new implementation?
  216. # [11:03] <jgraham> SimonSapin: Yes :p
  217. # [11:03] <SimonSapin> jgraham: yes to which?
  218. # [11:04] <jgraham> One of those. It was a non-exclusive or, right? ;)
  219. # [11:05] <jgraham> I haven't looked at the existing parser well enough to know if "incremental improvements" are likely to end up with something conformant
  220. # [11:05] <SimonSapin> I had in mind, which do you think would be the way to go?
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  223. # [11:06] <jgraham> If they would, that would be the low risk option, but my general feeling is that unless you started with the right architecture you won't end up with something conformant
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  225. # [11:06] <jgraham> And so far only WebKit were close to having the right architecture
  226. # [11:06] <jgraham> and taht was because the spec was based on more on webkit than on anyone else
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  229. # [11:13] <Ms2ger> annevk, do we have a bug on Hixie to invoke the set parser, then?
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  241. # [11:56] <annevk> marcosc: you don't want "Call resolver's reject(value) method with error as value argument."; you want to call the internal resolve algorithm
  242. # [11:56] <annevk> Ms2ger: that could be that bug I suppose
  243. # [11:56] <Ms2ger> wfm
  244. # [11:56] <annevk> Ms2ger: bit slow today
  245. # [11:57] <marcosc> annevk: makes sense
  246. # [11:57] <marcosc> (I din't write the text, fwiw)
  247. # [11:57] <annevk> marcosc: k
  248. # [11:58] <annevk> marcosc: also needs to say something about running the remaining steps asynchronously and not terminating when you return
  249. # [11:58] <annevk> marcosc: looks okay otherwise
  250. # [11:58] <marcosc> annevk: thanks :)
  251. # [11:59] <marcosc> annevk: will update the corresponding bug on the sysapps repo
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  258. # [12:44] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: "When errors occur in CSS, the parser attempts to recover gracefully, throwing away only the minimum amount of content before returning to parsing as normal." isn't quite true. for instance, a broken selector throws away the entire ruleset rather than just the selector
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  262. # [12:46] <zcorpan> or maybe i misunderstood. it talks about the parser, while throwing away rulesets happens later
  263. # [12:47] <ambv> jgraham: http://pypi-externals.caremad.io/help/what/
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  268. # [12:51] <jgraham> ambv: Context?
  269. # [12:52] <ambv> jgraham: distutils is very very very slow when it scrapes websites to find downloadable links. Disable this functionality by explicitly listing that we only publish packages on PyPI
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  271. # [12:52] <ambv> this makes downloading packages significantly faster
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  274. # [12:56] <gsnedders> ambv: Yeah, I saw that a few days ago.
  275. # [12:56] * tyl_ is now known as espadrine
  276. # [12:57] <gsnedders> ambv: But I thought it was in setup.py that changed the metadata, not just on PyPI
  277. # [12:57] <ambv> gsnedders: the newest distribute and setuptools are smarter than that but the default is still spurious scraping unless you opt-in on PyPI to the faster method
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  279. # [12:59] <gsnedders> ambv: Does this have to be done per-version?
  280. # [12:59] <gsnedders> Le sigh.
  281. # [13:00] <gsnedders> No, doing it once seems enough.
  282. # [13:00] <gsnedders> Well, okay.
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  285. # [13:11] <ambv> :-)
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  316. # [15:23] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: isn't the specced bad-url behavior bad for future compat if we want to add expressions in url()?
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  386. # [17:44] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I don't think we ever can.
  387. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> Apparently document.all.tags has been broken in Gecko since Fx3.0
  388. # [17:44] <miketaylr> :'(
  389. # [17:44] <miketaylr> quit breaking my sweet dhtml site guys
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  391. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Should tell sicking :)
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  398. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> annevk: Can you explain what the Object.prototype problem is? Keys set on Object.prototype showing up as non-own properties on all objects? I don't know why that's a problem for this kind of interface, or what I could do about it.
  399. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> annevk: Maybe expose it as a JS Map?
  400. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> annevk: Also, Syntax + CSSOM mandate how to serialize arbitrary token streams.
  401. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> (Or rather, will, once CSSOM finishes serialization stuff.)
  402. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Text about error-recovery is of course approximate and non-normative. But throwing away "just the selector" on a ruleset wouldn't help much - you'd be left with a ruleset with no selector, which doesn't match anything.
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  404. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> But anyway, I have compat constraints to operate under with error recovery.
  405. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, I think the point was about |foo, #broken# { ... }| not applying anything to foo
  406. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Hm, exposing Variables as a JS Map seems like a much better idea anyway. Wonder why I didn't think about that?
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  408. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Ah, perhaps. That was unclear. Regardless, we know that was a mistake, but not one we can fix.
  409. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> ;_;
  410. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> heycam|away|away: Your username is weird. Also, there any IDL magic necessary to make something be a JS Map?
  411. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, you guys might want to drop document.all.tags too
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  422. # [18:54] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  423. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: I'll send an email.
  424. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> Ta
  425. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Got a bug or something I can ref?
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  441. # [19:58] <GPHemsley> ICYMI: The Open Source (read: GitHub) Report Card: http://osrc.dfm.io/
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  444. # [20:01] <jgraham> "It seems—from their activity streams—that jgraham and w3c are probably friends"
  445. # [20:01] <jgraham> Hmm
  446. # [20:01] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  447. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> Ha
  448. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, er, thought I'd replied: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=874084
  449. # [20:02] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@md80536d0.tmodns.net) (Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi)
  450. # [20:02] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  451. # [20:03] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.19.10) (Client Quit)
  452. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> "Ms2ger is a trend setting Javascripter"
  453. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> Well, that sure is news to me
  454. # [20:04] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  455. # [20:04] <jgraham> Maybe writing testharness.js is a trend?
  456. # [20:04] <jgraham> +tests
  457. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> Still one you set, then
  458. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Also, apparently I do my work at 3am
  459. # [20:05] * Joins: chriseppstein (ceppstei@dagmar.corp.linkedin.com)
  460. # [20:05] <jgraham> Yeah, I'm not convinced by its timezone corrections (and neither is it, to be fair)
  461. # [20:06] <GPHemsley> It's kinda revealing about how much work one does on GitHub vs. off it
  462. # [20:07] <GPHemsley> like, GitHub has no idea about my PHP stuff because it's not really on GitHub
  463. # [20:08] <GPHemsley> (and GitHub thinks mimesniff is Tcl, for some reason)
  464. # [20:09] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.71.136.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  465. # [20:10] * Ms2ger kicks document.all some more
  466. # [20:11] <jgraham> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
  467. # [20:11] <jgraham> On the other hand document.all deserves it
  468. # [20:11] <jgraham> So please continue
  469. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> document.all["2"]
  470. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> What gives?
  471. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> How about ("2"), item("2"), namedItem("2")?
  472. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> The answer is obvious
  473. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> "depends on the browser"
  474. # [20:17] <jgraham> wwied?
  475. # [20:17] <jgraham> Or really wdied?
  476. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> ?
  477. # [20:18] <jgraham> what does IE do?
  478. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> Ah
  479. # [20:20] * Quits: decotii (~decotii@static-98-116-12-109.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  480. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> getElementsByTagName("*")[2] for [], () and item(), and the thing with name "2" for namedItem()
  481. # [20:22] * Quits: yorick (~yorick@oftn/member/yorick) (Remote host closed the connection)
  482. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> Oh wait
  483. # [20:23] * Ms2ger should look at the right lines
  484. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> getElementsByTagName("*")[2] for [] and (), and the thing with name "2" for item() and namedItem()
  485. # [20:27] <jgraham> Ah, so presto got it "right" then
  486. # [20:27] <jgraham> No surprise there :)
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The end :)