/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-21 / end

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  65. # [02:45] <annevk> "Anne's behavior is quite similar to crismannoble's but crismannoble is more of a whiner."
  66. # [02:45] <annevk> "Anne is an awesome Javascripter who loves pushing code. Anne is an early-week worker who seems to work best in the wee hours."
  67. # [02:45] <annevk> Listen up TC39!
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  74. # [02:57] <sgalineau> annevk, you high?
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  79. # [03:05] <annevk> Heh, just playing with http://osrc.dfm.io/
  80. # [03:07] * heycam|away|away is now known as heycam|away
  81. # [03:07] * heycam|away is now known as heycam|away|away
  82. # [03:07] * heycam|away|away is now known as heycam
  83. # [03:08] <heycam> TabAtkins, my IRC bouncer gets confused sometimes about whether it should append an "|away"
  84. # [03:08] <heycam> TabAtkins, there is no such functionality in Web IDL yet
  85. # [03:08] <TabAtkins> heycam: So if I want to use a Map for CSSStyleRule#vars, what should I do?
  86. # [03:09] <heycam> TabAtkins, do you want this Map to dynamically reflect the variable declarations, and to affect the declarations when you set properties on it?
  87. # [03:10] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  88. # [03:10] <heycam> TabAtkins, then I think you don't want a Map, since you can't "watch" the map for changes
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  90. # [03:11] <TabAtkins> Well, apparently I don't want a naked getter/setter object either
  91. # [03:11] <heycam> TabAtkins, oh, why not?
  92. # [03:11] <TabAtkins> annevk can explain better, but I think it's because just using an "object map" is subject to trickiness with things defined on the prototype chain, including Object.prototype.
  93. # [03:12] <TabAtkins> Someone can add Object.prototype.foo and it'll show up on el.style.vars.foo, even though there's no var-foo rule.
  94. # [03:12] <annevk> heycam: basically what we did for dataset is disliked by TC39
  95. # [03:13] <heycam> annevk, I'm not sure there is a better solution currently
  96. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> The better solution is to magic up a Map.
  97. # [03:13] <annevk> TabAtkins: a Map does not have the .vars.x functionality
  98. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> (Also, using a Map probably is better in general, because you interoperate with the rest of the collection API stuff.)
  99. # [03:13] <heycam> Map just has get() and set() methods, right?
  100. # [03:13] <annevk> TabAtkins: it only has .vars.get("x")
  101. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> annevk: Right, but .vars.get('x') wouldn't kill me.
  102. # [03:14] <annevk> TabAtkins: in that case just create your own Map like URLQuery does
  103. # [03:14] <heycam> I think the problem is that Map is being thought of as an interface that you want to use for vars, but ES6's Map is a concrete class
  104. # [03:14] <annevk> TabAtkins: you need to do that anyway since you need the serialization stuff to happen
  105. # [03:14] <heycam> and a class that doesn't allow watching it for changes
  106. # [03:14] <annevk> TabAtkins: whereas Map is just in/out
  107. # [03:15] <TabAtkins> annevk: But I want it to be a Map for the purpose of working with the iterable functions, getting the rest of the Map extras, etc.
  108. # [03:15] <TabAtkins> URLQuery can't quite do that yet, because MultiMap doesn't exist.
  109. # [03:15] <TabAtkins> But I assume it's planned to do that.
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  111. # [03:15] <annevk> TabAtkins: I guess, if MultiMap ever exists :)
  112. # [03:15] <annevk> (and if that matches)
  113. # [03:15] <heycam> this sounds very similar to the problem of Arrays
  114. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> Ah, it will. And I think we did a good job with it.
  115. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> heycam: It's identical to that problem.
  116. # [03:16] <heycam> there's no Array interface that we can use for things like NodeList
  117. # [03:16] <annevk> heycam: yeah, I guess you want [MapClass] or some such
  118. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> Yup yup.
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  120. # [03:16] <heycam> it would be great if there were native ES6 functionality for Array-likes, Map-likes, ...
  121. # [03:16] <annevk> heycam: or map CSSVariables { ... }
  122. # [03:17] <heycam> annevk, sure, but I'd like there to be a blessed way of doing similar things in plain JS
  123. # [03:17] <heycam> annevk, so that it's obvious what an IDL map should correspond to
  124. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> heycam: There is, at least for Maps.
  125. # [03:17] <heycam> TabAtkins, oh yes?
  126. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> In teh constructor, run Map.call(this)
  127. # [03:17] <annevk> heycam: I thought you could put Array on the prototype chain?
  128. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> You'll get a mapdata set up, etc.
  129. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> And also put Map on the prototype chain to get the methods.
  130. # [03:17] <heycam> annevk, you can, but I don't think that's going to get you the "platform object wants to monitor the object for changes" functionality
  131. # [03:18] <TabAtkins> heycam: We can just define our own methods, which do some work and then defer to Map.prototype.add or whatever.
  132. # [03:18] <annevk> heycam: you'll have to implement the methods yourself, always, I think, it's just that you want to share the methods
  133. # [03:18] <annevk> heycam: share the extra methods :)
  134. # [03:18] <heycam> annevk, ok, but also prevent Map.prototype.set from working
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  136. # [03:18] <TabAtkins> Ah right, yes.
  137. # [03:18] <annevk> hmm
  138. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> Also, you can't even defer to Map.prototype.get, since your mapdata is magically populated.
  139. # [03:19] <heycam> I think you want to wrap a Map object that is hidden from the outside
  140. # [03:19] <heycam> and that wrapper object has the same-feeling interface to a Map
  141. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> But this really shouldn't be a hard spec problem, any more than saying that the properties on an object are magically populated, like you can do today.
  142. # [03:19] <heycam> but forwards to the Map object inside it, as well as doing whatever other dynamic things it wants
  143. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> heycam: And, ideally, is detectably a Map using the standard testing methods.
  144. # [03:19] <annevk> TabAtkins: well, we need to get it right :-)
  145. # [03:19] <heycam> TabAtkins, that might be a problem
  146. # [03:20] <annevk> TabAtkins: once we know what's right, specifying it is not really a problem
  147. # [03:20] <heycam> you want to identify it has implementing this Map-like interface, but not being a Map object itself
  148. # [03:20] <heycam> because it's not one of these concrete Map objects really
  149. # [03:20] * TabAtkins goes to read the ES spec around Maps real quick.
  150. # [03:21] <TabAtkins> If I'm right, the ideal way is to just define that the mapdata is magical, populated by something per-spec, and mutations to it have some spec effect as well.
  151. # [03:23] <heycam> and the default Map object behaviour that ES has just has no other spec effect?
  152. # [03:23] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  153. # [03:23] <heycam> sounds reasonable on first read
  154. # [03:27] <TabAtkins> The spec for .get() just grabs from the [[MapData]] internal property. We can hook this; the normal Map constructor initializes it to empty, but we could just define that it's instead filled with something specific.
  155. # [03:27] <TabAtkins> The spec for .set() appends tuples to [[MapData]], but that could be generalized or overridden to allow a hook for specs.
  156. # [03:28] <heycam> TabAtkins, so it would be nice if there were a plain JS way of doing this hooking. otherwise I can imagine complaints that we shouldn't be doing more messing with internal [[Properties]] like this
  157. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> Everything else is defined in terms of get/set or just reading from [[MapData]] directly.
  158. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> heycam: Certainly. I'll bug es-discuss.
  159. # [03:28] <heycam> cool
  160. # [03:28] * heycam wonders if Arrays could be specced similarly
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  180. # [04:15] <TabAtkins> heycam: Bugging done. Comment if you'd like.
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  265. # [07:32] <annevk> Man, this comment syntax in VTT is annoying.
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  267. # [07:33] <annevk> Well, the parser not having conformance requirements is annoying.
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  309. # [09:20] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: shouldn't "reconsume the current input token" be called "unconsume the current input token"
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  315. # [09:29] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: not sure how it *should* be called, but yeah that’s what it means.
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  319. # [09:31] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: if you put in http://w3c-test.org/resources.whatwg.org/file-bug.js i can file bugs instead of whining in irc :-)
  320. # [09:33] <SimonSapin> most css specs expect feedback on www-style
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  336. # [10:25] <hsivonen> did hangouts of desktop always require a special NPAPI plug-in or was it Flash a couple of years ago?
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  338. # [10:26] <kinetik> hsivonen: i remember installing a plugin for it back when it was first announced.
  339. # [10:27] <hsivonen> kinetik: ok
  340. # [10:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yes, apparently because Flash couldn't (until last year) encode using anything but Sorenson Spark
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  367. # [11:26] <annevk> I wonder what is happening to public-webapps: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013AprJun/0762.html
  368. # [11:27] <annevk> It's not April 1...
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  373. # [11:31] <marcosc> annevk: heh, I had to respond to that
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  410. # [12:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: fail https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22106
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  428. # [13:43] <marcosc> sooo... anyone looked at the Web Audio API? The "Required Support for Alternate Names" seems like an epic f'up. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-file/tip/webaudio/specification.html#AlternateNames
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  431. # [13:46] <marcosc> there is a lot of badness in that spec
  432. # [13:47] <jgraham> Well if they got past the whole "the spec is the WebKit implementation" thing, that's a win at least
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  454. # [14:28] <marcosc> jgraham: but the spec doesn't even match WebKit
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  491. # [15:34] <annevk> marcosc: there's a bunch of Mozilla guys on that already
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  495. # [15:35] <annevk> marcosc: long and short of it is that Google managed to get some crappy API shipped on iPhone via Apple so now we're stuck with it...
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  497. # [15:36] <jgraham> Is there actually a web api that has worked out OK?
  498. # [15:36] <marcosc> annevk: yeah, but why not then stick with the old names
  499. # [15:36] <marcosc> ?
  500. # [15:36] <marcosc> why have two names for things
  501. # [15:36] <marcosc> it's confusing
  502. # [15:36] <jgraham> It seems like every single one we have decided was horrible just after it shipped
  503. # [15:36] <marcosc> they have noteOn() and start(), and they don't even work as the spec says
  504. # [15:36] <annevk> jgraham: are TextEncoder and TextDecoder bad?
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  506. # [15:37] <jgraham> annevk: Dunno, does anyone ship them?
  507. # [15:37] <annevk> jgraham: think so
  508. # [15:37] <annevk> marcosc: because the old names suck and methods are cheap?
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  510. # [15:38] <annevk> "cheap" lest anyone thinks we should boil the ocean
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  519. # [15:46] <darobin> jgraham: don't we usually realise they're horrible and then ship them anyway?
  520. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> Did someone mention webrtc?
  521. # [15:48] <marcosc> :)..... :(
  522. # [15:48] <darobin> that's beyond horrible
  523. # [15:48] <jgraham> Well there's usually a race between realising they're horrible and shipping them
  524. # [15:48] <jgraham> But somehow never between fixing them and shipping them
  525. # [15:49] <marcosc> ok, so lesson here is not to bother fixing
  526. # [15:49] <marcosc> "jQuery will fix it" :D
  527. # [15:49] <marcosc> The W3C - jQuery will fix it (TM)
  528. # [15:50] <marcosc> heh
  529. # [15:50] <marcosc> I like it
  530. # [15:50] * Ms2ger fires marcosc
  531. # [15:51] <marcosc> You can't fire me! I quit!
  532. # [15:51] <marcosc> :)
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  534. # [15:51] <jgraham> marcosc: To paraphrase mpilgrim, I think the moral of the story is that it’s time for us to find a new hobby. Preferably one that doesn’t involve angle brackets. Or computers. Or electricity.
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  539. # [15:54] <marcosc> that would be nice
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  591. # [17:17] <darobin> hsivonen: I am being asked if CC-BY addresses all the use cases in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/html-license-options.html#usecases, do you know if that happens to be the case?
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  594. # [17:18] <darobin> hsivonen: I think it's the case, but I'm wondering if it's something you've checked
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  614. # [17:49] <tantek> darobin - it's something I've checked, and in general it does, with the only possible source of conflicts has to do with *GPL open source where the "BY" requirement is unable to be passed on. But in practice *GPL open source projects seem to get around this somehow.
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  616. # [17:49] <tantek> theoretically CC0 is best for this reason - it cleanly satisfies all the use cases
  617. # [17:50] <tantek> that being said, CC-BY is an excellent step forward here, and I think one that everyone who needs those use-cases will be able to work with.
  618. # [17:51] <tantek> the "BY" clause seems to make it a "less scary" option to some W3C folks, so if that's what it takes, to take a big step toward open licensing, I think it is worth it.
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  624. # [18:05] <darobin> tantek: thanks, that's what I thought
  625. # [18:05] <tantek> darobin - hence why I'm ok supporting the CC-BY experiment for HTML5 extension specifications in the HTMLWG charter
  626. # [18:05] <darobin> note that for the code-related parts I think that in general they should fall under the W3C Software License irrespective of whether they appear in the body of the spec or not
  627. # [18:06] <tantek> darobin - that's an interesting exception clause. Perhaps we can similarly say that code-related parts in anything CC-BY we publish are subject themselves to CC0.
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  629. # [18:06] <tantek> any code examples, any algorithms
  630. # [18:06] <darobin> that could probably be done without much of a problem assuming CC-BY is accepted
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  632. # [18:06] <tantek> that would address the "only possible source of conflicts" case I noted above
  633. # [18:06] <tantek> indeed
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  635. # [18:07] <darobin> I've asked team-legal about the current situation regarding the Software License as it's not at all clear from the current copyright document
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  637. # [18:07] <Ms2ger> Does the HTML parser count as a code part?
  638. # [18:08] <darobin> Ms2ger: I doubt any interpretation would agree, but it certainly has crossed my mind :)
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  661. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I just copied the naming from HTML's parser. ^_^
  662. # [18:46] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  681. # [19:06] <testtest> alert("hello world")
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  683. # [19:09] * window Hello world
  684. # [19:09] * window is now known as ambv
  685. # [19:09] <testtest> :)
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  699. # [19:28] <hallvors> annevk, where art thou?
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  704. # [19:31] <nimbu> miketaylr: i am sure you were referring to anne in your tweet
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  709. # [19:31] * hallvors goes to see what Mike is tweeting about
  710. # [19:32] <nimbu> hallvors: https://twitter.com/miketaylr/status/336894563497160704
  711. # [19:32] <nimbu> hallvors: ALSO HAI LONG TIME NO SEE
  712. # [19:32] <miketaylr> nimbu: you can't prove that!
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  715. # [19:33] <hallvors> nimbu: thanks :-D although I'm seeing you on Twitter all the time so it's more a case of "long see no time"!
  716. # [19:33] <nimbu> ahahah
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  718. # [19:33] <hallvors> <3
  719. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> Sounds more like gsnedders
  720. # [19:35] <nimbu> Ms2ger: but 15 YO
  721. # [19:35] <nimbu> on xhmlt2
  722. # [19:35] <jgraham> Could be Hixie except for the 15 part :)
  723. # [19:35] <nimbu> :D
  724. # [19:35] <nimbu> miketaylr: put all of us out of our misery by revealing the redacted
  725. # [19:35] <jgraham> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1042630901&count=1
  726. # [19:35] <hallvors> interesting exercise to come up with a list of all the people in the world who were digging XHTML at 15
  727. # [19:35] <nimbu> ahahaha omg
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  729. # [19:36] * jgraham has plenty of misery but doubts that knowing who miketaylr was talking about will reduce it much
  730. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> OH: "Updated Candidate Recommendation of XPath and XQuery Functions and Operators 3.0"
  731. # [19:37] <nimbu> i want to tweet this
  732. # [19:37] <nimbu> hixie's view of xhmlt2
  733. # [19:37] <hallvors> good old times :)
  734. # [19:37] <nimbu> lol structurally sound <l>ine element
  735. # [19:37] <jgraham> It does sound like satire now
  736. # [19:37] <jgraham> But I believe he was serious when he wrote it
  737. # [19:37] * hallvors didn't write XHTML until it was out of fashion
  738. # [19:37] <nimbu> "I've gone over two years now without using it. I know this, because I set about, two years ago, to see if I could find a use case for the style attribute, and I never found one. "
  739. # [19:37] <nimbu> omg all gold here.
  740. # [19:38] <nimbu> ahahah
  741. # [19:38] <jgraham> Kind of puts paid to the idea that he can't change his mind
  742. # [19:38] <jgraham> Oh, Hixie still thinks that about the style attribute
  743. # [19:39] <nimbu> i would agree if he thinks so about css
  744. # [19:39] <jgraham> That there isn't a use case for it?
  745. # [19:39] <jgraham> Oh I see
  746. # [19:39] <jgraham> *if*
  747. # [19:39] <jgraham> Well no I think he still believes exactly what he wrote there
  748. # [19:40] <jgraham> That it is always possible to work without an inline style attribute
  749. # [19:40] <jgraham> Or at least, to the extent it isn't, that represents deficiencies in CSS
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  751. # [19:42] <jgraham> Not that I can find the mail right now
  752. # [19:42] <nimbu> ha.
  753. # [19:42] <hallvors> Hixie prefers people who have class to people who have only style. Who would disagree with that?
  754. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> I remember the time he only allowed style="" on font elements
  755. # [19:43] <hallvors> that's a fontastic idea
  756. # [19:43] <nimbu> ahahahahahhaha hallvors
  757. # [19:44] * Ms2ger cringes
  758. # [19:44] <nimbu> O DEAR LORD Ms2ger
  759. # [19:44] <nimbu> no
  760. # [19:44] * hallvors is apparently too tired to stop making stupid jokes
  761. # [19:45] <nimbu> it is a great joake hallvors
  762. # [19:45] <hallvors> I'll licence the word fontastic to you any day Divya ;)
  763. # [19:46] <nimbu> immediately using this license hallvors THNX
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  790. # [20:18] <zcorpan> marcosc: i've whined about it (web audio), but seemingly without success. please bring it up on the list (asking for the new names to be removed)
  791. # [20:18] <marcosc> zcorpan: I will
  792. # [20:18] <marcosc> I'm putting together a demo
  793. # [20:18] <zcorpan> thanks
  794. # [20:18] <marcosc> to show that it's borked
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  796. # [20:19] <marcosc> ... but I literally just bought Dead Space and Dead Space 2 for EU10 on Steam... so I'm gonna go play! :D
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  850. # [21:36] <Yuhong> Wonder if Hixie is at Google I/O or something.
  851. # [21:37] * Quits: josemanuel (~josemanue@73.213.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es) (Quit: Saliendo)
  852. # [21:41] <tantek> #googleio was last week
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  855. # [21:43] <jgraham> I believe Hixie is away for a few days
  856. # [21:43] <jgraham> or s/days/weeks/ perhaps
  857. # [21:44] <Ms2ger> Monthish
  858. # [21:45] <jgraham> Which is "a few weeks", more or less :p
  859. # [21:45] <jgraham> (days was a misleadingly small unit)
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  861. # [21:46] <hober> Yuhong: he's on (or at least was on) vacation
  862. # [21:48] <Yuhong> I wanted to mention that the crash in http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1115899732&count=1
  863. # [21:49] <Yuhong> Was later rediscovered in http://blogs.norman.com/2011/security-research/drag-and-drop-vulnerability-in-ms11-050 and it turned out to be a exploitable crash fixed in MS11-050.
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  929. # Session Close: Wed May 22 00:00:00 2013

The end :)