/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-22 / end

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  84. # [02:47] <zewt> nothing quite as much fun as discussions of the general form "i just started reading web specs yesterday, and you're doing everything wrong"
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  88. # [02:49] <jacobolus> is this a reasonable place to mention a typo in http://www.w3.org/TR/css-variables/#custom-property ? in the example, "main-color" should be "var-main-color" and "accent-color" should be "var-accent-color"
  89. # [02:49] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: ↑
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  167. # [04:29] <rillian> TabAtkins: have you looked at the new CSS selectors in the WebVTT spec? http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#css-extensions
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  169. # [04:30] <rillian> I'd like to get a sanity check on the design before we start implementing in Firefox.
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  195. # [06:11] <annevk> I updated http://quuz.org/webvtt/ a bit.
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  208. # [06:47] <TabAtkins> rillian: Yeah, they're kosher. I helped design it early, and the pseudo-classes are already in Selectors 4.
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  210. # [06:48] <annevk> TabAtkins: so you can't do something like ::before { content: voice } at the moment which seems sad
  211. # [06:48] <TabAtkins> annevk: Hm, interesting.
  212. # [06:48] <annevk> TabAtkins: and the restrictions on properties might be arbitrary?
  213. # [06:48] <annevk> TabAtkins: and if this is going to be implemented in terms of components long term, how will that affect this design and usage of pseudo-elements?
  214. # [06:49] <TabAtkins> I don't know if captions are meant to be addressed in components.
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  216. # [06:49] <TabAtkins> And I'm fine with custom things for built-in stuff, even if they *could* be done less conveniently with components.
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  221. # [06:50] <TabAtkins> annevk: There's a voice attribute, so if we support ::cue(::before)), you can just do "content: attr(voice);"
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  223. # [06:51] <annevk> TabAtkins: if components are the way to explain elements, they need to be able to explain captions I think
  224. # [06:51] <TabAtkins> The property restrictions may be arbitrary. It's supposed to be the properties that you can put on ::first-line
  225. # [06:51] <TabAtkins> Plus maybe something else?
  226. # [06:52] <annevk> As part of the "no magic" strategy...
  227. # [06:52] <TabAtkins> annevk: Maybe? They obviously need some ability to take a selector and apply it over a subtree.
  228. # [06:52] <TabAtkins> Maybe Components level 2. ^_^
  229. # [06:52] <TabAtkins> (Right now you can only surface individual elements as pseudo-elements.)
  230. # [06:53] <annevk> I meant to look into that. Whether components had a way to let styles bleed through. It seems the answer is no?
  231. # [06:53] <annevk> Do they just inherit var-*?
  232. # [06:54] <annevk> Overall that sounds okayish I suppose.
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  243. # [07:46] <TabAtkins> annevk: There's a switch you can set to let selectors match through, which defaults to false.
  244. # [07:46] <TabAtkins> There's another switch for inheritance, which defaults to true.
  245. # [07:46] <TabAtkins> And yes, it's expected that variables will be a major way to style them.
  246. # [07:46] <TabAtkins> But there is also a way to declare certain shadow elements as pseudo-elements on the component root.
  247. # [07:47] <rillian> TabAtkins: another thing we talked about is assigning automatic consistent colours to <v> nodes based on the attribute value
  248. # [07:47] <rillian> it would be nice if there were some way to do that with CSS
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  251. # [07:49] <TabAtkins> That seems... hard.
  252. # [07:49] <TabAtkins> It's basically declarative randomness, no?
  253. # [07:56] <annevk> TabAtkins: yes
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  256. # [07:56] <annevk> TabAtkins: you have a WebVTT file, which may be streaming, which has X different voices, which you want to allocate different colors so you can easily distinguish who is speaking (as alternative for the ::before thing)
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  258. # [07:58] <TabAtkins> This doesn't have to be random, actually. Hmm. If you didn't care what the values were, perhaps a color hashing function, which takes an arbitrary input (like an attr(voice) value) and produces a color from it.
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  260. # [07:58] <TabAtkins> This wouldn't guarantee the values were different, or far enough apart to be distinguishable, but it'd give you a good chance of it.
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  262. # [07:59] <TabAtkins> Alternately, make it explicit. Create a list of values, and have the page consume them by associating them with a key. The value assigned to each key is stable for the page, and the order they're consumed is defined somehow.
  263. # [07:59] <TabAtkins> So you could define, say, 20 colors for voices.
  264. # [08:00] <annevk> TabAtkins: alternatively, you'd do it on a per-cue basis I suppose
  265. # [08:01] <TabAtkins> annevk: You want persistent colors for each voice across a video.
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  267. # [08:01] <annevk> TabAtkins: upfront doesn't work for live-captioning
  268. # [08:02] <annevk> (not sure that will ever happen in practice in that way though :))
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  272. # [08:02] <TabAtkins> annevk: I meant that you declare a list of 20 appropriate colors up-front. CSS figures out which colors attach to which voice for you, first-come-first-serve.
  273. # [08:03] <annevk> Ah yeah. Combined with the hash table that works.
  274. # [08:04] <annevk> Does seem like a pie-in-the-sky feature a bit, but worth keeping in mind.
  275. # [08:05] <TabAtkins> Finding use-cases outside of WebVTT would help.
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  278. # [08:08] <annevk> You could maybe generalize it to select the first value from this list of values based on a string, then forever associate that value with that string and remove it from the list.
  279. # [08:09] <annevk> And then do silly things with it.
  280. # [08:10] <annevk> Color table rows based on their sort key?
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  282. # [08:11] <annevk> Should patent that. "New CSS-based feature to do silly things."
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  284. # [08:18] <rillian> TabAtkins: it could even select from an ordered list of colours
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  286. # [08:18] <rillian> oh, you said that
  287. # [08:23] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, generalizing to arbitrary values is pretty obvious.
  288. # [08:23] <TabAtkins> And your example isn't too terrible. ^_^
  289. # [08:23] <annevk> Make it so!
  290. # [08:23] <TabAtkins> Point is, sounds like a useful tool for a variety of disparate and somewhat interesting use-cases that are difficult to address otherwise.
  291. # [08:24] <TabAtkins> Ooooh, I wonder how much I can bodge this into a randomness feature.
  292. # [08:24] <TabAtkins> Because why force people to declare values when they don't have to? We can create some random functions, valid only in the list-declaring at-rule.
  293. # [08:25] <TabAtkins> This solves at least part of the "when do you evaluate?" problem with declarative randomness.
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  295. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> does Chromium not support audio/mpeg?
  296. # [08:25] <TabAtkins> Like, let the list be capped with a random function, so it generates infinite values after your predefined ones.
  297. # [08:26] <annevk> TabAtkins: I think you might want "repeat" too, or random-from-list
  298. # [08:26] <annevk> but yeah
  299. # [08:27] <annevk> man, styling my website in random colors would be great
  300. # [08:28] <TabAtkins> Haha
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  303. # [08:48] <rillian> MikeSmith: I believe it doesn't. MP3 is still a non-free format.
  304. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> rillian: ok
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  358. # [11:39] <annevk> So where's hallvors? I'm getting pretty close to using Fetch in XMLHttpRequest to see what might break...
  359. # [11:39] <annevk> Also, I guess I want some feedback from Hixie and others. Maybe I should send email.
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  370. # [12:18] <darobin> heh, "pretty dry reading"
  371. # [12:19] <darobin> annevk: "HTML Standard's fetch and potentially CORS-enabled fetch algorithms", -> potentially?
  372. # [12:19] <darobin> annevk: "and make provide a model" s/make//
  373. # [12:21] <darobin> annevk: "to fetch a resource or URL" what's the diff?
  374. # [12:22] <darobin> annevk: "Note: The block cookies flag is obsolete now." if so, then please either remove it or indicate why it's still in
  375. # [12:23] * Parts: JibberJim (~opera@132.185.151.37)
  376. # [12:23] <darobin> annevk: "The element's node document. " -> The element's document node. maybe?
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  379. # [12:25] <Ms2ger> darobin, no, "node document" is a well-defined term
  380. # [12:26] <darobin> ah, the DOM4 node document?
  381. # [12:26] <darobin> an indication that this is a term would help, I failed to parse the sentence on reading
  382. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> Hmm, yes, that should be a link
  383. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  384. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> Something is wrong with the preprocessing
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  387. # [12:29] <darobin> a lot of terms seem to be getting style but no link, too
  388. # [12:30] * Ms2ger looks what's up
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  390. # [12:32] <Ms2ger> People complain about tar arguments, but ln sucks too
  391. # [12:32] <darobin> annevk: ["true" is a string, while true is a byte string. ] maybe that example would be clearer if you didn't use a common boolean term
  392. # [12:32] <darobin> Ms2ger: you don't say :)
  393. # [12:33] <darobin> annevk: "considers bytes in the range 0x41 to 0x5A to be a match for their corresponding byte in the range 0x61 to 0x7A." -> does this need to state that the reverse is true too?
  394. # [12:33] <darobin> annevk: "via data URL" -> URLs
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  396. # [12:36] <annevk> darobin: so lots of thanks, will try to address these tomorrow
  397. # [12:36] <annevk> darobin: seems we're heading out for food
  398. # [12:36] <darobin> sure, I'll just keep dumping stuff in the logs
  399. # [12:36] * Ms2ger messes with the xrefs in the meantime
  400. # [12:36] <darobin> mostly it seems editorial so fart
  401. # [12:36] <darobin> so *far*
  402. # [12:37] <annevk> :-)
  403. # [12:37] <darobin> annevk: "A arequest has an associated " -> request
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  412. # [12:56] <Ms2ger> darobin, what was the potentially thing about?
  413. # [12:57] <darobin> Ms2ger: ah, I can parse that sentence better on re-reading it
  414. # [12:57] <darobin> it's "potentially-CORS-enabled"
  415. # [12:58] <darobin> on first read it seemed to say "this specification supplants (...) HTML Standard's fetch" and, you know, maybe, CORS-enabled fetch
  416. # [12:59] <darobin> I think the "potentially" is useless and would be better dropped
  417. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> Heh
  418. # [12:59] <Ms2ger> Well, that's the goal of this spec :)
  419. # [13:00] <darobin> yeah, which is why it should be clear and not "potential" :)
  420. # [13:01] <darobin> hmmm, most of these algorithms I can't usefully review without writing the code to match
  421. # [13:02] * darobin food
  422. # [13:03] <Ms2ger> Anyway, xrefs and "a arequest" should be fixed
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  424. # [13:07] <marcosc> slightlyoff: can you help us out quickly with some Futures spec terminoloty? https://github.com/sysapps/web-alarms/issues/29#issuecomment-18271329
  425. # [13:08] <marcosc> or terminology :)
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  428. # [13:30] <darobin> I love the mention that using cookies is a fingerprinting vector :)
  429. # [13:33] <Ms2ger> Keep your fingers off my cookies
  430. # [13:33] <Ms2ger> Cookies are delicious delicacies
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  438. # [13:50] <darobin> annevk: some more notes for when you come back https://gist.github.com/anonymous/fe3aa4243ae7b4f68376
  439. # [13:50] <darobin> I guess that for such editorial stuff I could have made a pull request
  440. # [13:50] <darobin> will see about that next time
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  485. # [15:53] <slightlyoff> marcosc: yeah, sorry for the delay
  486. # [15:56] <marcosc> slightlyoff: no probs, thanks for commenting
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  530. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, how's the new job? :)
  531. # [17:38] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: It’s awesome :D
  532. # [17:38] <SimonSapin> and a bit overwhelming
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  534. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> rillian: fwiw I managed to build Chromium with audio/mpeg support by feeding it a couple of gyp flags
  535. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> http://www.chromium.org/audio-video#TOC-GYP-Flags
  536. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> I guess that probably enables H.264 support too
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  540. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> Good lord, tc39 is *actually* telling me that I shouldn't reuse their data structures, and should instead just reinvent a Map-lookalike every time I want to use a Map in a spec.
  541. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> This is a dream, right?
  542. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> I'm dreaming right now?
  543. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> No, no
  544. # [17:52] <odinho> Sweet dreams
  545. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> That's Javascripty
  546. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> It's the Idiomatic Way
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  551. # [17:53] <jgraham> TabAtkins: In a moment MikeSmith will turn into Carrie Fisher and kiss you
  552. # [17:53] <jgraham> Which is weird
  553. # [17:53] <TabAtkins> jgraham: But oddly arousing.
  554. # [17:53] <jgraham> But it's your dream
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  556. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> Does MikeSmith have the buns on before he changes?
  557. # [17:54] <jgraham> Sure, like normal
  558. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> Cool, cool, just making sure.
  559. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> Wouldn't want it to get weird or anything.
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  634. # [19:38] <zewt> "Modified UTF-8 form"? there's a sequence of words that makes me rage inside
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  668. # [20:34] <rniwa> zewt: sounds like a scary stuff.
  669. # [20:34] <rniwa> zewt: where did you find this horror?
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  742. # [22:04] <zewt> google docs :(
  743. # [22:04] <zewt> (for Java stuff so the real blame might be on Oracle or Sun or whoever)
  744. # [22:05] <zewt> http://developer.android.com/training/articles/perf-jni.html
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  751. # [22:12] <Philip`> zewt: Is the problem that you're wanting some actual documentation of the JNI API, not just a collection of random tips?
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  756. # [22:16] <Philip`> zewt: Oh, I guess you were actually responding to rniwa
  757. # [22:17] <Philip`> in which case I'm pretty sure it's Sun's fault
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  760. # [22:21] <Philip`> zewt: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.3/docs/guide/jni/spec/types.doc.html#16542 - been there since at least 1997, apparently
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  762. # [22:22] <Philip`> Back then they thought a 16-bit char would be a sensible idea, too
  763. # [22:22] <Philip`> but it turns out Unicode is hard :-(
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  774. # [22:38] <dekiss> when Google joined whatwg?
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  782. # [22:47] <jgraham> dekiss: WHATWG doesn't have members really
  783. # [22:47] <jgraham> But Google employees have been active for a long time
  784. # [22:47] <dekiss> ?
  785. # [22:47] <dekiss> cmon
  786. # [22:47] <dekiss> apple opera mozilla started it right?
  787. # [22:47] <dekiss> well
  788. # [22:47] <dekiss> who operate it then?
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  790. # [22:47] <dekiss> it has closed membership i dont understand
  791. # [22:47] <dekiss> it must have directors or something
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  793. # [22:48] <dekiss> right?
  794. # [22:48] <dekiss> you want to say it has some kind of directors and it works like closed organization?
  795. # [22:49] <jgraham> Apparently the amount that you can get done without a heavyweight bureaucracy would surprise you
  796. # [22:49] <jgraham> WHATWG theoretically has a group of appointed members that can tell Hixie that he's useless
  797. # [22:50] <jgraham> In practice they have, as far as I know, done nothing
  798. # [22:50] <jgraham> In fact it's hard to imagine what they would do
  799. # [22:50] <hober> i think they actually did something once
  800. # [22:50] <jgraham> Because the response to the failure mode "Hixie has gone mad and won't listen to reason" is to fork the spec
  801. # [22:50] <hober> but i don't remember what it was
  802. # [22:51] <jgraham> Didn't they vote to allow annevk to join their club?
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  804. # [22:51] <jgraham> AFAIK the WHATWG site is hosted on Hixie's Dreamhost account
  805. # [22:52] <jgraham> In the early days some lawyers at Opera, Mozilla and Apple were involved in licensing the specification
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  807. # [22:52] <jgraham> Apart from that it's just a mailing list
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  810. # [22:53] <dekiss> hm
  811. # [22:53] <dekiss> its offiocial standard
  812. # [22:53] <dekiss> and 99% use it
  813. # [22:54] <jgraham> In this context I don't know what an "official" standard is
  814. # [22:54] <jgraham> It's not like there are laws about HTML compliance
  815. # [22:55] <jgraham> Browser vendors and market forces are the ultimate arbiters of what gets implemented
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  817. # [22:55] <dekiss> hm
  818. # [22:56] <dekiss> what about w3?
  819. # [22:56] <jgraham> But there is some competition between venues for doing standards work
  820. # [22:56] <dekiss> Tim don't have power?
  821. # [22:56] <dekiss> that is plain bad
  822. # [22:56] <dekiss> money=BAD
  823. # [22:56] <jgraham> On brand name, efficiency, IPR commitments, etc.
  824. # [22:56] <dekiss> jgraham I know thats true I just try to cinvience myself in oppposite
  825. # [22:57] <jgraham> So W3C have comparatively strong IPR policies which several vendors particuarly like
  826. # [22:57] <jgraham> e.g. Microsoft won't do work in the WHATWG
  827. # [22:58] <jgraham> They also have a rather strong brand
  828. # [22:58] <jgraham> Although they are currently engaged in a self-destruct campaign on that front
  829. # [22:58] <dekiss> why?
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  831. # [22:59] <jgraham> I don't know why.
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  835. # [23:00] <jedimind> hey its a place w/ people and stuff
  836. # [23:00] <jedimind> crazy
  837. # [23:00] <jgraham> But the whole DRM thing is doing a lot of harm to the whole "W3C => good for the web" association they have managed to build up
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  840. # [23:01] <jgraham> Also among vendors they are not renouned for being a place to get stuff done with a minimum of overhead
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  842. # [23:02] <gavinc> Okay, those are same vendors pushing the DRM stuff.
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  845. # [23:03] <jgraham> On the other hand WHATWG has a minimum of Process and is generally rather efficient at solving technical challenges, but doesn't offer the Patent policy so is rather weak on the IPR front
  846. # [23:03] <jgraham> (OTOH, it is possibly to republish WHATWG specs through W3C which can provide the benefits of both organisations)
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  850. # [23:07] <astearns> jgraham: those benefits being all the process of the W3C plus all the snarking from WHATWG about that process?
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  853. # [23:07] <dekiss> hm
  854. # [23:09] <jgraham> astearns: More like "getting stuff done from WHATWG without that process"
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The end :)