/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 24 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <hober> i think people google around for how to do what rniwa wants, they find object-fit: contain, they assume it does what they want, and then they see this weird extra space for no apparent reason
  4. # [00:00] <hober> the other case (letterboxing etc.) isn't as common/compelling
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  6. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Again, all that means is that we need a property that does what they want.
  7. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> It doesn't negate the use-case for object-fit.
  8. # [00:02] * Quits: Martin1982 (~Martin198@541A8D15.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Gone snoring)
  9. # [00:04] <hober> while true, i'd rather change object-fit to do something like what rniwa wants in the common case, and then additionally make it possible to do the (weirder) behavior with some additional values
  10. # [00:04] * Quits: krit (~krit@sjfw1.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  11. # [00:04] <hober> 'object-fit: contain letterbox' or some such
  12. # [00:04] <rniwa> TabAtkins: it seems better to address a more common use case.
  13. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Oh god no. Again, no vertical-align trainwreck. A single property doing two very different things is just asking for confusion.
  14. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Like, what would "letterbox" even mean for regular content? It's nonsense.
  15. # [00:06] <rniwa> TabAtkins: exactly, that's why it doesn't make much sense for "object-fit: contain" to behave that way.
  16. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> Listen. Just let me define the property for you. I'll post it on the list. You can implement it. Everyone will be happy.
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  18. # [00:07] <rniwa> TabAtkins: adding a new property to address my use case will be great
  19. # [00:07] <rniwa> TabAtkins: but I still have concerns for the current behavior of object-fit: contain because it's confusing for authors.
  20. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Only because their is no way to get what they currently want, and they don't believe that, so they try everything that looks remotely like it'll work.
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  22. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> I'm not going to keep repeating myself about the value of object-fit's current behavior. It has its uses.
  23. # [00:09] <rniwa> TabAtkins: and I'm saying that those use cases aren't compelling.
  24. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Unluckily for you, we have existing things in the web that use the functionality. Removing object-fit just means those things are more magical and can't be tweaked.
  25. # [00:09] <rniwa> TabAtkins: what existing things?
  26. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> <video>. I've already explained this.
  27. # [00:10] <rniwa> TabAtkins: how can video be using this feature when no browsers other than Opera have implemented it?
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  29. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Video is using the functionality that object-fit describes.
  30. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> It letterboxes.
  31. # [00:11] <rniwa> TabAtkins: also, the fact that some element has some interesting layout algorithm doesn't mean we have to expose that as a css property
  32. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> If we dont' have object-fit, that just means you can't do that yourself, or tweak the existing behavior.
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  34. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Unless the "interesting layout algorithm" is a legacy mistake, it is a good thing to make the web platform self-describable.
  35. # [00:12] <rniwa> TabAtkins: I don't those are use cases
  36. # [00:12] <rniwa> think*
  37. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> I do. Shrug.
  38. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> People get to ahve different opinions!
  39. # [00:13] <rniwa> TabAtkins: sure, i agree to disagree
  40. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> (Or rather, people get to disagree because I'm not willing to put the effort into either convincing them, or convincing myself and self-updating sufficiently to be consistent again. No one should ever disagree, as reality is objective, if we had enough processing power.)
  41. # [00:14] <rniwa> reality is very subjective.
  42. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Wrong. ^_^
  43. # [00:14] <rniwa> TabAtkins: again, i agree to disagree :)
  44. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> And since reality is objective, there's an objective answer to that question.
  45. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Your perception of reality is subjective, by definition.
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  47. # [00:16] <hober> offhand, i think you could describe <video> with existing platform features without object-fit
  48. # [00:17] <hober> but i didn't just try that :)
  49. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> If you reify <video> into a non-replaced element containing a [video-pane thing], sure.
  50. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Or rather, you could, once we introduce the sizing property that respects aspect-ratios better.
  51. # [00:18] <hober> then we wouldn't need the weird property value any more, wheee
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  53. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> You'd need an equalivalent property, plus enough Web Components to describe <video>, plus some way of describing [video-pane thing].
  54. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Better? Arguably either way, I think. ^_^
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  56. # [00:21] <hober> you don't need enough web components to describe video, you just need a pseudo element for the [video-pane thing]
  57. # [00:22] <hober> which could be useful for "the image in the <img>" etc
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  210. # [07:12] <annevk> zcorpan: you should probably comment on http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/#object-model and try to fight against useless interfaces like "CSSFontFeatureValuesRule"
  211. # [07:12] <annevk> zcorpan: might as well just expose it as a CSSRule for now
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  220. # [07:45] <annevk> Planning travel is the worst thing. It's great to see the world, but committing to a set of days and particular flights upfront...
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  268. # [10:23] <zcorpan> annevk: i agree that the design for CSSRule seems weird. i'll ponder what it should be like instead, if it's worth changing it
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  270. # [10:25] <annevk> zcorpan: so we can't change CSSRule, but we can avoid introducing new crappy string-based APIs in CSS
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  340. # [14:12] <oal> Is there a document with all valid html tags, and the attributes and attribute values they take?
  341. # [14:13] <oal> Preferably json or something I can parse easily
  342. # [14:13] <webben> oal: mmm well i think the validator still uses a relaxng schema of some sort
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  344. # [14:16] <oal> webben, hmm, no way of grabbing that somehow?
  345. # [14:16] <jgraham> What do you mean "attributes and attribute values they take"?
  346. # [14:16] <oal> I was thinking about scraping http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/elements.html, if nothing else is available
  347. # [14:17] <jgraham> There can be rather complex rules that can't be expressed in a schema
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  349. # [14:17] <oal> jgraham, style, type etc
  350. # [14:17] <oal> ok
  351. # [14:19] <oal> Scraping the w3.org page above should be enough then. At least I get all available tags, and which ones are form related :)
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  355. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> Keep in mind that scraping the w3.org page probably isn't kosher from a copyright POV
  356. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> whatwg.org/html is fine, though
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  358. # [14:36] <oal> Ms2ger, thanks for letting me know. I'll use the whatwg one then :)
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  364. # [14:52] <jgraham> hallvors: Nice
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  370. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> Mm, tests
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  375. # [15:11] <hallvors> jgraham: um, thanks - but what? Merging the MS tests? ;-)
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  384. # [15:34] <hallvors> hmm.. still some bugs in those MS tests :-/
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  386. # [15:45] <jgraham> hallvors: Yeah
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  388. # [15:48] <hallvors> send-timeout-events exposes bugs in all browsers it seems
  389. # [15:48] <hallvors> I thought my review had been sloppy and the test was buggy, but apparently all implementations get it wrong differently :-p
  390. # [15:51] <zcorpan> review welcome :-) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0630.html
  391. # [15:51] <zcorpan> have a nice weekend guys. (i'll read the logs if you want to dump comments here)
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  413. # [16:30] <GPHemsley> hmm... the GIF parser in WebKit shares a common ancestor with the one in Gecko
  414. # [16:30] * GPHemsley wonders what that means for interop
  415. # [16:31] <jgraham> Means that the GIF spec couldn't go to Rec. on the basis of those implementations (if the spec was at the W3C)
  416. # [16:32] <jgraham> OTOH Opera/Presto doesn't share image decoders except for WebP
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  418. # [16:36] <GPHemsley> (and Blink shares ancestor with WebKit, so...)
  419. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> "+5 Insightful"
  420. # [16:40] * Ms2ger remembers the days he read /.
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  422. # [16:50] <GPHemsley> "GIF is a legacy format; we recommend against generating new images in it." - giflib
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  442. # [17:31] <GPHemsley> FTW: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/GIF
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  482. # [18:30] <zewt> i had to create a gif just the other day :|
  483. # [18:30] <zewt> because Android's video handling is catastrophically stupid (in native code)
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  533. # [19:30] <GPHemsley> hmm... renaming usernames on MediaWiki requires an extension
  534. # [19:30] <zewt> :|
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  537. # [19:39] <GPHemsley> annevk: Skimming Fetch, it seems like I might want to use it in mimesniff. Agree?
  538. # [19:40] <GPHemsley> annevk: (Any chance you could define "resource"?)
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  541. # [19:47] <GPHemsley> annevk: "basic fetch" does not seem to allow for custom "about:" URLs; is that intentional?
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  548. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> annevk: Hm, it's more convenient to make it a custom interface, because then you can attach the rules about what goes inside of it better.
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  551. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> annevk, zcorpan: But I suggested in the mailing list that it needs to descend from CSSGroupingRule, and then it's done. You get free interface for actual rules.
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The end :)