/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 27 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:19] <GPHemsley> annekv: (Typo?)
  12. # [00:19] <GPHemsley> annevk: Are we moving towards not having "Standard" in the title of our specs?
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  15. # [00:34] <annevk> GPHemsley: don't think so, but I'm jetlagged
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  17. # [00:43] <GPHemsley> oh, it's zcorpan's fault
  18. # [00:43] <GPHemsley> https://github.com/whatwg/xref/commit/5c4dacc47cfe7748bdf552858b6efa380fef388b
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  43. # [01:54] <GPHemsley> Does anyone here happen to know anything about the new (March 29, 2013) MIME type "application/font-sfnt" beyond what is in the IANA registration?
  44. # [01:54] <GPHemsley> (or perhaps have access to the ISO/IEC 14496-22 "Open Font Format" specification
  45. # [01:54] <GPHemsley> ?)
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  47. # [01:57] <GPHemsley> Oh, nevermind; it's a Publicly Available Standard
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  50. # [02:06] <GPHemsley> the registration is included in an amendment as Annex E, but it appears to be identical to what is at IANA
  51. # [02:06] <GPHemsley> (as it should be, I suppose)
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  55. # [02:20] <GPHemsley> as I think I was saying, the registration is in ISO/IEC 14496-22:2009/Amd 2:2012
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  86. # [04:30] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: ping
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  92. # [04:50] <GPHemsley> Does anyone have an opinion on whether I should assume that a MIME type is ASCII/UTF-8?
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  96. # [04:57] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: sounds reasonable, if nothing else specifies it.
  97. # [04:58] <SimonSapin> you’d need to define error handling, although you might not have to do it yourself if you refer to the Encoding standard. (Which AFAIR defaults to inserting replacement characters.)
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  245. # [13:22] <hsivonen_> I wonder if <script defer> has ever worked per spec in Gecko
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  248. # [13:29] <Ms2ger> That seems unlikely from first principles
  249. # [13:30] <jgraham> It's a browser feature, all browser features mismatch the spec, therefore it mismatches the spec?
  250. # [13:36] <Ms2ger> Sounds about right
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  255. # [13:58] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: it was inconsistent so i just picked one. if you prefer to include the suffix, feel free to change it
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  279. # [15:17] <GPHemsley> zcorpan: If they're all consistent now, that's fine.
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  281. # [15:18] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: It was more a question of whether I should refer to bytes (0x20) or code points (U+0020)
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  289. # [15:43] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: IIRC, your data: URL spec was waiting on me to complete the "parse a MIME type" algorithm; if so, that's now done.
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  291. # [15:43] <GPHemsley> (Where "complete" and "done" indicate that the algorithm now fully terminates, not that it can't be improved.)
  292. # [15:44] <GPHemsley> http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#parse-a-mime-type
  293. # [15:45] * GPHemsley wonders if the data: URL spec won't have the same issue wrt bytes vs. code points
  294. # [15:47] <GPHemsley> ah, right, it was the data: URL spec that sparked the discussion about null vs. empty string parameter values
  295. # [15:48] <GPHemsley> (the "parse a MIME type" algorithm handles/allows this distinction)
  296. # [15:50] <GPHemsley> (it's the difference between ";base64;" and ";base64=;"
  297. # [15:50] <GPHemsley> )
  298. # [15:52] <GPHemsley> hmm... I may have to do special handling on commas
  299. # [15:52] <GPHemsley> but perhaps not; perhaps that's more in scope of the data: URL spec
  300. # [15:53] <GPHemsley> you'll basically just have to search for matching quotes before you can determine the right comma to split on
  301. # [15:53] <GPHemsley> which is annoyingly unfortunate
  302. # [15:53] <GPHemsley> (it's possible that half of this dialog is going on in my head)
  303. # [15:55] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Note that you should be doing percent decoding before any processing/splitting
  304. # [15:55] <GPHemsley> IIUC
  305. # [15:56] <GPHemsley> hmm...
  306. # [15:56] <GPHemsley> "Attribute values in [RFC2045] are allowed to be either represented as
  307. # [15:56] <GPHemsley> tokens or as quoted strings. However, within a "data" URL, the
  308. # [15:56] <GPHemsley> "quoted-string" representation would be awkward, since the quote mark
  309. # [15:56] <GPHemsley> is itself not a valid urlchar. For this reason, parameter values
  310. # [15:56] <GPHemsley> should use the URL Escaped encoding instead of quoted string if the
  311. # [15:56] <GPHemsley> parameter values contain any "tspecial"."
  312. # [15:56] <hsivonen_> the <script defer> code is so broken in terms of the spec that I have a hard time believing I could have accidentally broken it that badly if it used to be correct
  313. # [15:56] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
  314. # [15:57] * GPHemsley will shut up now
  315. # [15:57] <annevk> GPHemsley: basically you can get both string and byte sequence input for media types
  316. # [15:57] <GPHemsley> annevk: Yeah, that's what I figured...
  317. # [15:57] <GPHemsley> :/
  318. # [15:57] <GPHemsley> annevk: So I need to keep working with code points, then?
  319. # [15:58] <annevk> I guess you should figure out how implementations deal with the mismatch
  320. # [15:58] <annevk> and if they try to share code and if they want to, etc.
  321. # [15:59] <GPHemsley> how would I even go about testing how a MIME type is parsed?
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  323. # [16:04] <GPHemsley> interesting... apparently Firefox accepts "text/html/test" as a valid MIME type (but it prompts for download)
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  325. # [16:05] <annevk> You'd read the source code
  326. # [16:05] <annevk> I wonder why in http://first-website.web.cern.ch/sites/first-website.web.cern.ch/files/u4/Screen%20Shot%202013-05-27%20at%202.25.30%20PM.png sometimes trailing dots are used, sometimes :80, sometimes both, ...
  327. # [16:06] * GPHemsley notes that the data: URL RFC doesn't even define what it means to be base64-encoded
  328. # [16:08] <annevk> I wouldn't pay too much attention to RFCs
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  331. # [16:10] <GPHemsley> that was just an aside
  332. # [16:10] <GPHemsley> since I was looking for a source
  333. # [16:10] <GPHemsley> (I figured it'd at least be linked from the RFC)
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  335. # [16:12] <hallvors> annevk: what is the #fragment part of the URL called in the Fetch spec? There is no instance of the word "fragment", just wondering if it's not covered there or named something else
  336. # [16:13] * Quits: reyre_ (~reyre_@142.204.133.18) (Remote host closed the connection)
  337. # [16:14] <annevk> hallvors: it's not called out at the moment, it'd be called "fragment"
  338. # [16:15] <hallvors> ok, thx
  339. # [16:17] <annevk> "The hypertext community were unimpressed with the web"
  340. # [16:17] <annevk> http://first-website.web.cern.ch/blog/1991-web-page-found-password-lost
  341. # [16:18] <GPHemsley> ...first I have to find the source code...
  342. # [16:19] <Ms2ger> annevk, yeah, too messy
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  344. # [16:21] <GPHemsley> ah, I think I've got it
  345. # [16:21] <annevk> where did hallvors go?
  346. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> Pang
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  354. # [16:33] <GPHemsley> boy the Gecko code does a lot work based on file extensions..
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  374. # [17:29] <GPHemsley> hmm... RFC 2231 specifies parameter continuation for MIME types in mail (i.e. actual MIME); RFC 5987 states HTTP doesn't need it
  375. # [17:29] <GPHemsley> so now I have to decide what to do
  376. # [17:30] <GPHemsley> I suppose I could just let downstream assemble any continued parameters
  377. # [17:30] <GPHemsley> yeah, that probably makes sense
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  381. # [17:33] <GPHemsley> or else give the algorithm a parameter to indicate whether to support continuations
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  396. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> oh, hmm... apparently my algorithm does allow arbitrary value-less parameters
  397. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> only if it's the last one in the MIME type
  398. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> interesting
  399. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> that's probably not right
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  403. # [18:03] * GPHemsley wonders whether Google's decision to create Blink was made to intentionally ensure that mobile doesn't become a monoculture
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  406. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> *becomes a Google-owned monoculture
  407. # [18:05] <GPHemsley> fair enough, I suppose
  408. # [18:05] <GPHemsley> depends on how well WebKit does without Google, I guess
  409. # [18:07] <GPHemsley> does Chrome have an equivalent of Firefox's Page Info?
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  416. # [18:17] <Philip`> GPHemsley: Does it matter how technically well WebKit does, given that Apple can force the use of WebKit on iOS, so web developers will have to support it regardless of how far it might fall behind some Android browsers?
  417. # [18:17] <GPHemsley> ah, right, I knew there was something I was forgetting
  418. # [18:18] <GPHemsley> so then my original point still stands then, doesn't it?
  419. # [18:19] <jgraham> It is an interesting question
  420. # [18:19] <jgraham> Does Apple need the web more than then web needs apple
  421. # [18:20] <Philip`> If Google changes the default Android browser to use Blink, and Apple doesn't abandon their current course, then I guess it's inevitable that it'll create a multicuture
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  423. # [18:21] <jgraham> If WebKit on iOS became the new IE6 (which, as expressions go, is the new black), would people stop buying iOS devices, or would developers just grit their teeth and make things work with WebKit/iOS
  424. # [18:21] <zewt_> is that a serious question? heh
  425. # [18:22] * zewt_ is now known as zewt
  426. # [18:22] <GPHemsley> WebKit on iOS would only become the new IE6 if it stopped innovating
  427. # [18:22] <jgraham> Well that was the premise
  428. # [18:22] <jgraham> That it fell far behind "some Android browsers"
  429. # [18:22] <GPHemsley> that doesn't appear to be happening at the moment though, right?
  430. # [18:22] <zewt> (people don't buy iOS devices for the browser)
  431. # [18:22] <jgraham> I have no idea
  432. # [18:23] <jgraham> I don't think anyone does really
  433. # [18:23] <Philip`> I'd probably assume Google's main motivation was that they think they can do everything better than everyone else, so Blink lets them get a competitive advantage over iOS, and if that resulted in a technically inferior iOS losing market share and dyng then they'd be perfectly happy with that, regardless of the monoculturality
  434. # [18:23] <GPHemsley> one would presume that Apple would not let their iOS browser stagnate as the rest of the Web moved forward
  435. # [18:23] <GPHemsley> (because it doesn't look like the rest of the Web is going to give up this time)
  436. # [18:24] <GPHemsley> Philip`: Yeah... I was just looking for a glimmer of Don't Be Evil, that's all
  437. # [18:24] <jgraham> AFAICT (and I stress, I have no special insight here) we haven't reached any kind of steady state in blink or webkit development post-split
  438. # [18:24] <darobin> if iOS lost market share for being technically inferior, it would be dead by now
  439. # [18:25] <jgraham> zewt: No, but would they accept a browser that was much worse than on other platforms
  440. # [18:25] <zewt> to what? having done a lot of both iOS and Android dev in the last year, i can tell you it's not inferior to android for development nor for users, heh
  441. # [18:25] <jgraham> Is the allure of the walled garden so strong that people would forego the web entirely?
  442. # [18:25] <zewt> jgraham: they don't have any choice, short of jumping ship entirely, which I expect nearly nobody would do
  443. # [18:25] <jgraham> If not, how bad would it have to be?
  444. # [18:25] <Ms2ger> On another note, sure would be nice if calendar providers interoperated
  445. # [18:26] <jgraham> I wonder if it is true that "nearly nobody" has jumped from iOS to another smartphone platform
  446. # [18:26] <zewt> due to browsers?
  447. # [18:26] <jgraham> In general
  448. # [18:26] <zewt> not talking in general
  449. # [18:26] <jgraham> Well at present the browsers are rather similar
  450. # [18:27] <jgraham> So "due to browsers" isn't a very interesting question
  451. # [18:27] <jgraham> +default
  452. # [18:27] <jgraham> Dunno if anyone has changed specifically to get Firefox/Opera Mobile
  453. # [18:27] <zewt> i don't think the browser is a big enough chunk of people's use of iOS, even if it was catastrophically bad I suspect the app marketshare of iOS would still keep most people there
  454. # [18:28] <jgraham> (I should note that "most people" don't use iOS, but perhaps you mean "most current users")
  455. # [18:28] <zewt> what? i mean most users of iOS, of course
  456. # [18:29] <jgraham> Ms2ger: And make it easy to switch to an alternate provider? Why would they do that?
  457. # [18:29] * toyoshiAw is now known as toyoshim
  458. # [18:30] <zewt> i'd hope that apple would have the sense to keep their browser current; just saying, don't make the web-centric view that they have to or everyone will leave, since the browser isn't the center of iOS
  459. # [18:31] <Philip`> Given that the market is still expanding, it's probably more important to worry about attracting new users to a platform, than about switching existing users
  460. # [18:31] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Remote host closed the connection)
  461. # [18:32] * jgraham didn't actually take any view, just said it was an interesting question
  462. # [18:32] <Philip`> (and it's much easier to influence a new user who hasn't got a heavy investment in one platform already)
  463. # [18:32] <zewt> and apple tends to keep the browser on iOS just-slightly-worse for using apps than native, to make sure people keep making native apps
  464. # [18:33] <zewt> (eg. can't put an app bookmark on the home screen without the user using an obscure UI; no WebGL)
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  479. # [18:56] <GPHemsley> Does any WHATWG spec define what it means to convert something to ASCII lowercase?
  480. # [18:57] <zewt> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#converted-to-ascii-lowercase
  481. # [18:57] <GPHemsley> hmm, DOM apparently
  482. # [18:58] <GPHemsley> or that
  483. # [18:59] <GPHemsley> thanks
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  511. # [20:49] <ripples> pewpew
  512. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> Ahem?
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  565. # [22:56] <GPHemsley> Feedback welcome: http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#parse-a-mime-type
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  592. # Session Close: Tue May 28 00:00:00 2013

The end :)