/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-29 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 29 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:02] <rafaelw> so presumably mark wants ecma end-of-turn stuff to be enqueued to this new microtask FIFO queue?
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# [00:02] <rafaelw> (promises, weakrefs, Object.observe, etc...)
# [00:03] <rafaelw> s/ecma/ecmascript/
# [00:08] <rafaelw> ok. i guess this horse is dead
# [00:08] <rafaelw> i'll open a bug that puts a stake in the ground and we can iterate from there.
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# [00:18] <sicking> rafaelw: sorry, yes
# [00:19] <sicking> rafaelw: say my name and my irc client will start blinking and stuff. It's really annoying but it works :)
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# [00:23] <rafaelw> sicking: ok.
# [00:23] <rafaelw> here's the bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22185
# [00:23] <rafaelw> Please add anyone I've missed.
# [00:23] <rafaelw> I'll try to write-up the proposal today or tomorrow.
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# [00:24] <aklein> rafaelw: thanks for writing this all down
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# [00:56] <JonathanNeal> So, in April http://html5doctor.com/the-hgroup-element/ mentioned they were "working on an article to help guide authors on which markup patterns they should use instead [of hgroup]" What has come of that? What would you folks recommend?
# [00:56] <JonathanNeal> And related, any developments on <subline> or something similar?
# [00:57] <Hixie> <hgroup> is the element to use.
# [00:57] <Hixie> if you have subheadings
# [00:58] <Hixie> hsivonen, MikeSmith, gsnedders: woops, sorry, just checked in a parser fix without marking it for conformance checkers and tools
# [01:00] <JonathanNeal> Huh, has it been undeprecated or something, Hixie?
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# [01:00] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: it was never deprecated, at the whatwg
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# [01:01] <boogyman> JonathanNeal: why now use the appropriate h-level then use the "next sibling" CSS selector
# [01:01] <boogyman> not*
# [01:01] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: all that happened with <hgroup> is that the w3c is trying to assert its independence, as far as i can tell, by making dumb changes to their fork of the spec.
# [01:01] <Hixie> (note: the above may be overly cynical)
# [01:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanksfor theheads-up
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# [01:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: (specifically, for <menuitem>; without the fix you'll have an infinite loop)
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# [01:04] <Hixie> man, i'm totally screwing up this rtl bug
# [01:04] <MikeSmith> ah yeah, I saw the bug report I think
# [01:04] <Hixie> every time i fix it i make it worse
# [01:04] <JonathanNeal> Is there an IRC room for bugging W3C folks about this, and figuring out what they plan to push in its stead?
# [01:04] <Hixie> i18n people must think i'm a loon
# [01:04] <MikeSmith> (menuitem)
# [01:04] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: #htmlwg on irc.w3.org, if you care about the html spec, but i recommend living the easy life with the whatwg spec instead :-)
# [01:05] <Philip`> #html-wg, I think
# [01:05] <JonathanNeal> The inability to add so much as a <div> or <span> in <hgroup> was what keeps me tracking this.
# [01:06] <boogyman> ^ if you're a UA implementer. If he's a consumer, then he should look at which version of the spec is being used for UA's
# [01:06] <JonathanNeal> Unless I'm incorrect in that preposition?
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# [01:07] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: why do you need a <div> in <hgroup>?
# [01:07] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: I don't think hgroup is ever essential. The only reason to use it is if you care about how applications the implement the outline algoritm are going to show your headings in the outline
# [01:07] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: (you can have a <Span> around the <h1> or <h2> contents in <hgroup>)
# [01:09] <JonathanNeal> I was always hoping an element like <hgroup> or <subline> would normalize some of the odd implementations I catch across the web.
# [01:09] <JonathanNeal> Like here http://twitter.github.io/bootstrap/ they have a kind of sub heading or abstract that they place in a paragraph.
# [01:09] <Hixie> that's hte idea of <hgroup>, right
# [01:09] <JonathanNeal> But here http://purecss.io/ they have it in a heading.
# [01:10] <Hixie> abstracts are more <header> material
# [01:10] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: the W3C HTML spec has http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/common-idioms.html#sub-head (if you've not seen it already)
# [01:11] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: the bootstrap case is <header> <hgroup> <h1> Bootstrap </h1> <h2> Sleek [...] </h2> </hgroup> <p> ...download... </p> <nav> <p> ...github...examples... </p> </nav> </header>
# [01:11] <Hixie> or similar
# [01:11] <JonathanNeal> The Boostrap team occasionally labeling it a "byline", although it is not being used to attribute credit, it's being used as a subheading.
# [01:13] <JonathanNeal> <div class="marketing">…<h1>Built with Bootstrap.</h1><p class="marketing-byline">For even more sites built with Bootstrap…</div>
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# [01:14] <JonathanNeal> Those are interesting recommendations, MikeSmith.
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# [01:15] <boogyman> JonathanNeal: secondary to this conversation, but I believe a hyphen is an illegal character to use in an id/class attribute value
# [01:15] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: I see. Thanks. Yet Boostrap almost kind of avoids HTML5 elements.
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# [01:16] <JonathanNeal> boogyman: not sure I follow. there is no sub-head element, that's just an article describing (meh) techniques to mark up subheadings.
# [01:17] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: yeah i just meant that's what it would look like if you used modern HTML
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# [01:19] <JonathanNeal> Maybe the paradigm shift was just really high to think of using <h1-6> for longer, even mulit-part text.
# [01:19] <JonathanNeal> <h2-6> rather, within an <hgroup>
# [01:19] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: I happen to agree with those recommendations, and disagree with Hixie. I think hgroup is a solution in search of a problem.
# [01:19] <Hixie> the problem is right there: how do you mark up subheadings
# [01:19] <Hixie> every w3c spec has it
# [01:19] <Hixie> how is it not a real problem?
# [01:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you can obviously mark up subheadings without <hgroup>
# [01:20] <tantek> Hixie, you mean it's not <br><b><font size> ?
# [01:20] <tantek> ;)
# [01:20] <JonathanNeal> It's certainly a situation in the projects I've worked on, and I see differing opinions on how it should be marked up, between Twitter and Yahoo.
# [01:20] <MikeSmith> everybody was marking up subheadings in whatever ways before hgroup came along
# [01:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: well sure, you can mark up paragraphs with <p>. I'm not disagreeing that there are multiple solutions, just saying that there is a problem
# [01:21] <MikeSmith> UAs do nothing with hgroup
# [01:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: er, without <p>
# [01:21] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [01:21] <MikeSmith> I agree it'd be a bigger problem if browsers actually exposed the document outline
# [01:21] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: right, the fact that there were multiple people disagreeing on how to mark it up is why we introduced <hgroup>
# [01:22] <Hixie> it's similar to <section> and <aside> and so on
# [01:22] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith: some do, my iPhone has started recommending alternate views of web pages.
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# [01:22] <JonathanNeal> I'm sure you all know what it is better than I do, but has anyone else seen this?
# [01:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie: but so far you're the one who's not wanting to have browsers provide a way to Web content to expose a document outline
# [01:22] <JonathanNeal> It kind of strips the page of styling and presents you with a book view of a web page?
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# [01:23] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: have not see that
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# [01:25] <JonathanNeal> Yea, it's called "Reader"
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# [01:25] <JonathanNeal> http://photos.appleinsider.com/safari-110607-3.png
# [01:26] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
# [01:26] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i think the outline thing is kind of an orthogonal thing. even without the outline issue, we still need something like <aside> and <nav> and <hgroup>.
# [01:27] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: that thing seems pretty half-assed
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# [01:28] <boogyman> its a "low-fi" render
# [01:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think there's way more of need for <aside> and <nav> then for <hgroup> but yeah I agree people certainly want something
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# [01:28] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith: it's a start, and definitely the most outline-ish thing I've seen for non-developers.
# [01:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: sure, subheadings are rarer than sidebars, but that's just a question of degrees, not a question of whether there's a problem or not.
# [01:29] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: well, it doesn't seem like an outline at all to me. And it's not clear to me that it's doing anything with <hgroup>
# [01:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie: true
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# [01:31] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith: I meant, it's using (atleast the elements of) the outline to create a book view of the page.
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# [01:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I guess to me it just seems like not a high enough priority to merit a new element. But then I could also say that about <article> and some others.
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# [01:32] <JonathanNeal> Long live <main>
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# [01:35] <MikeSmith> I think some people get way way to wrapped up in discussions about how to properly use the semantic elements -- <article> etc.
# [01:35] <MikeSmith> splitting hairs
# [01:35] <MikeSmith> talmudic
# [01:35] <MikeSmith> pick your metaphor
# [01:35] <MikeSmith> I think in the end Web authors should care fuck all what somebody else thinks of their markup, as long as it's accessible and i18n-friendly, etc.
# [01:37] <MikeSmith> it's like looking at the source of somebody's PDF and complaining about how they used PostScript
# [01:37] <boogyman> Do you agree that there's a difference between appearing accessible, and being accessible?
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# [01:38] <MikeSmith> boogyman: is that question a trap of some kind?
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# [01:40] <boogyman> that wasn't my intent. I have seen poorly authored code that is "accessible" in the sense that it had tags and wai-aria roles, but that if someone was more miopic, it's really a pos that doesn't make sense.
# [01:40] <MikeSmith> I see
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# [01:42] <MikeSmith> boogyman: I would imagine that anybody who was taking the time to add wai-aria roles to a document would be doing it in good faith to try to actually make it accessible
# [01:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: well sure, but we have it now, so it's kind of a moot point. There's lots of elements that are even less useful.
# [01:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no disagreement there
# [01:43] <Hixie> ok :-)
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# [01:44] <MikeSmith> so in related news, I see http://www.apple.com/safari/features.html mentions hgroup
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# [01:44] <MikeSmith> "Support for article, aside, footer, header, hgroup, nav, and section elements allows developers to create advanced web designs with semantic markup."
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# [01:44] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: do you have an example of Reader doing something with hgroup?
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# [01:47] <MikeSmith> maybe hober knows
# [01:47] <boogyman> oh, btw -- Hixie stop being a loon
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# [01:49] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i did a search at google and found literally over 100,000,000 pages with <hgroup> (vs about five times as many with <aside>). It's pretty widely used.
# [01:49] <Hixie> (this is on a subset of the web that we use for this kind of thing internally, i don't recall the sample size but it's in the single-digit billions, iirc)
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# [01:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK
# [01:54] <MikeSmith> that suggests to me we probably don't really need <aside) either then :)
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# [01:56] <boogyman> 100m isn't an insignificant amount
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# [02:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: well, see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17812 -- from the same sample, i got about 50k pages mentioning :read-only and friends
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# [02:01] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'd guess 100m here is about 1%-10%. We were forced to have the <image> hack in the HTML parser for something used on 0.2% of pages. FWIW.
# [02:02] <JonathanNeal> Good ol' <image>.
# [02:02] <JonathanNeal> How's <picture> doing these days?
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# [02:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: along with those stats I saw others from the corpus that Steve got data from that suggest <hgroup> is used way less than that
# [02:08] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: a Chrome/Blink dev posted an Intent to Implement for <picture> to the blink-dev list
# [02:11] <Hixie> steve's corpus is significantly smaller
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# [02:11] <Hixie> he's probably got data biased towards front pages and major sites, whereas google has much more depth in the tail
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# [02:22] <MikeSmith> Steve's report is at http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2012/04/html5-accessibility-chops-data-for-the-masses/
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# [02:23] <MikeSmith> data if from a "Top 10,000 sites" data set
# [02:26] <MikeSmith> "Of the top 8915 HTML pages, 79 (0.89%) were found to include use of the HTML5 hgroup element."
# [02:26] <JonathanNeal> Change Proposal: replace hgroup with the subline element - attaboy
# [02:27] <JonathanNeal> (from Steve's report)
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# [02:36] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: we are discussing in the html wg about developing <subline> further, have had quite a bit of positive developer feedback
# [02:38] <JonathanNeal> stevefaulkner: just talk, anything particular?
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# [02:39] <GPHemsley> Safari will download anything willy nilly
# [02:40] * GPHemsley wonders how vulnerable that makes it to attacks
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# [02:40] <JonathanNeal> More notes on Safari Reader http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/safari-reader
# [02:40] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: developing it as an extension spec, its got the basis for it already there http://www.html5accessibility.com/HTML5extensions/subline.html but needs some further work
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# [02:43] <JonathanNeal> I had seen that popping up on Google lately. I am a <subline> advocate. We had it in the html5shiv for a while.
# [02:44] <JonathanNeal> But, it's always good to challenge those perspections and collect new data.
# [02:45] <JonathanNeal> For instance, I did not know that w3c and whatwg had forked on it.
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# [02:46] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: look forward to your input as we develop subline spec further then
# [02:47] <JonathanNeal> ha, can't imagine i'll have anything new to contribute, but i'll always be around, and I'll always be looking for reasons I am wrong.
# [02:47] <JonathanNeal> Because, in the end, I usually am.
# [02:47] <stevefaulkner> likewise
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# [02:49] <GPHemsley> interesting... both Chrome and Safari will display a file marked as "text/<256-char string>" as plaintext
# [02:49] * GPHemsley wonders if that's a good idea
# [02:51] <GPHemsley> (as I assumed, they do that for anything where the top-level type is "text")
# [02:51] <GPHemsley> logically, that seems like a good idea
# [02:51] <GPHemsley> but I wonder if there are instances where it isn't
# [02:52] <GPHemsley> s/logically/intuitively/
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# [02:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah, everything that's text/* is... text. Any further information just seems to be for helpful naming purposes.
# [02:52] <boogyman> GPHemsley: maybe, but then you would have to question why it's being marked as "text/" if it's not truly text
# [02:53] <GPHemsley> anyone have IE handy?
# [02:53] <boogyman> unfortunately. lol what version?
# [02:54] <boogyman> 7-10*
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# [02:55] <JonathanNeal> I have IE handy.
# [02:56] <JonathanNeal> Have 6 on a VM because I double as a sadist?
# [02:56] <GPHemsley> any version
# [02:56] <GPHemsley> you can start with this: http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=web%20test
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# [02:56] <JonathanNeal> Interesting https://www.google.com/search?q=define:sadist "someone who obtains pleasure from inflicting pain or others" I FOR ONE ENJOY INFLICTING OTHERS
# [02:56] <GPHemsley> but actually, there's one that'd be more useful
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# [02:57] <JonathanNeal> IE6 and IE6 want to download this file.
# [02:57] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: What's the encoding on this page? http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml;test=asdf\;charset=ISO-8859-3%20test;charset=ISO-8859-2%20te\%22st;testing=te%22st;charset=ISO-8859-5
# [02:57] <JonathanNeal> *IE7
# [02:57] <JonathanNeal> okay, hold up, testing the new link you sent.
# [02:58] <JonathanNeal> IE6, IE7, and IE8 on XP all look at the file.
# [02:58] <JonathanNeal> They show what appears to be the source code of a document, but the content within <body> is all squares.
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# [02:59] <GPHemsley> yeah, in that case I only care about which encoding they chose
# [02:59] <GPHemsley> squares suggests -3
# [02:59] <GPHemsley> IIRC
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# [03:00] <JonathanNeal> It looks like rich markup
# [03:01] <JonathanNeal> Yea, IE6 devtool says "<BODY class=st>"
# [03:02] <JonathanNeal> Or is this IE's way of reading an XML document?
# [03:02] <GPHemsley> it's an HTML document that's tagged as XML for debugging purposes
# [03:02] <GPHemsley> (if the Content-Type header is ignored, then it should output as HTML; otherwise, it should output as XML)
# [03:03] <GPHemsley> but I'm really just interested in what the text actually looks like
# [03:03] <GPHemsley> (i.e. the charset/encoding)
# [03:03] <GPHemsley> based on your description, it seems to be ISO-8859-3
# [03:03] <GPHemsley> (-2 would be accented letters, -5 would be Cyrllic)
# [03:03] <GPHemsley> s/letters/Latin/
# [03:03] <GPHemsley> utf-8 would be Japanese
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# [03:04] <GPHemsley> Cyrillic, that is
# [03:04] <GPHemsley> (for -5)
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# [03:05] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: How does IE treat this? http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml%20plain
# [03:05] <boogyman> GPHemsley: IE10 wants to open the file
# [03:05] <JonathanNeal> Just a moment.
# [03:06] <JonathanNeal> IE6 wants to open the fie.
# [03:06] <GPHemsley> boogyman: Which? web test?
# [03:06] <JonathanNeal> *file
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# [03:06] <JonathanNeal> Same with IE7 and IE8.
# [03:06] <boogyman> web test = dl, xml/plain = view source
# [03:07] <GPHemsley> boogyman: Does that mean it treats it as XML? (I don't know what that looks like in IE.)
# [03:08] <boogyman> seems to believe there's a <pre> around the contents
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# [03:10] <GPHemsley> ah, like Safari
# [03:10] <GPHemsley> gotcha
# [03:10] <GPHemsley> boogyman: How does it treat this? http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/whatever
# [03:11] <boogyman> http://i44.tinypic.com/auth6b.gif SS
# [03:11] <boogyman> text/whatever = dl
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# [03:12] <GPHemsley> boogyman: What about this? http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml%20charset=ISO-8859-3
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# [03:13] <boogyman> xml tree without styling
# [03:13] <GPHemsley> Ah, OK, that looks like XML
# [03:13] <boogyman> oops, sorry that's Fx
# [03:13] <boogyman> text/xml = <pre> encapsulated
# [03:14] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Thanks to you, that link makes Safari do plaintext with an ISO-8859-3 charset ^^
# [03:14] <GPHemsley> boogyman: Japanese?
# [03:14] <boogyman> yup
# [03:14] <GPHemsley> k
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# [03:14] <boogyman> well, i assume the characters are japanese
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# [03:15] <boogyman> 文書の etc.
# [03:15] <GPHemsley> yeah, if it looks Japanese, assume it is
# [03:15] <GPHemsley> (I know what the other encodings that I'm giving you look like)
# [03:15] <GPHemsley> (and they don't look like Japanese)
# [03:16] <GPHemsley> -3 has unknown characters, -2 has accented Latin, -5 has Cyrillic
# [03:16] <GPHemsley> and utf-8 is Japanese
# [03:19] <GPHemsley> boogyman: What about this? http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml;charset=%22
# [03:19] <boogyman> <pre> with Japanese characters
# [03:20] <GPHemsley> and this? http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml;charset=%22;charset=ISO-8859-3
# [03:20] <boogyman> same
# [03:20] <GPHemsley> and this <pre> differs from what you showed in the screenshot?
# [03:21] <boogyman> the </body> is inline, opposed to the screenshot where it's on a new line
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# [03:25] <GPHemsley> does it get colored?
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# [03:27] <boogyman> is what colored?
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# [03:30] <GPHemsley> what you're calling <pre>
# [03:30] <GPHemsley> (the screenshot you showed me is colored, and represents an XML parsing)
# [03:31] <boogyman> correct, all markup like tags are colored
# [03:32] <GPHemsley> ah, ok, then that's XML
# [03:33] <boogyman> ah
# [03:34] <boogyman> okay, then substitute all <pre> remarks with xml representations
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# [03:39] <MikeSmith> so, looking at http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/safari-reader , the Reader-ifiable requirements that matjas reverse-engineered and describes there seem pretty arbitrary and some even bizarre
# [03:42] <MikeSmith> e.g., "Every paragraph should have at least 100 characters."
# [03:44] <MikeSmith> " Readability then loops through all these ‘paragraphs’ and assigns a score to them based on how ‘content-y’ they look. This score is determined by things like the number of commas, class names used in the markup, etc."
# [03:44] <MikeSmith> the number of commas?
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# [03:48] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: How much bridge text needs to exist between the Syntax spec and the CSSOM? That is, what do you need me to define about how to produce a CSSOM tree from a "stylesheet" as produced by the Syntax spec?
# [03:50] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Did you see my suggestion about re-registering text/css?
# [03:50] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Yeah. What would I need to do?
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# [03:51] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: Follow the instructions here: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6838
# [03:51] <GPHemsley> (Like HTML, etc., include a registration form in the spec and let IANA know about it.)
# [03:52] <TabAtkins> kk
# [03:52] <GPHemsley> (section 4 down)
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# [04:05] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith: yea, it's pretty bad.
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# [04:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think maybe the validator.nu/Mozilla HTML parser wasn't up-to-date yet with the current HTML spec for <menuitem> anyway, but instead parsed it per the way Mozilla had unilaterally implemented it before you actually specced it
# [04:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I wonder if you've noticed in difference in load on bugzilla.validator.nu/html5.validator.nu now that the HTML4+Schematron stuff is no longer happening
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# [04:52] <GPHemsley> Feedback welcome: http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#parse-a-mime-type
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# [05:39] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: nice
# [05:41] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: "whitespace character" is as defined in the HTML spec?
# [05:49] <SimonSapin> GPHemsley: do you expect this to be used for data: URLs?
# [05:52] <SimonSapin> I suppose we could do the percent-decoding before calling this algorithm, and not worry too much about it
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# [05:53] <SimonSapin> Assume that there isn’t much content that does funny percent-encoding of MIME delimiters in their data: URLs
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# [06:56] <kochi> MikeSmith: ping?
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# [06:59] <MikeSmith> kochi: here now
# [07:00] <MikeSmith> got your message
# [07:00] <MikeSmith> lemme change the assignee now
# [07:00] <MikeSmith> one minute
# [07:00] <MikeSmith> kochi: btw I been in Matsumoto this week
# [07:00] <MikeSmith> I'll be back in Tokyo on Saturday
# [07:02] <MikeSmith> kochi: OK, changed the default assignee now
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# [07:02] <kochi> MikeSmith: thanks!
# [07:03] <MikeSmith> cheers
# [07:03] <kochi> and one question: one of my colleagues want to have a write access to shadow DOM spec. who to consult?
# [07:03] <MikeSmith> me
# [07:03] <MikeSmith> is that colleague a member of the WebApps WG already?
# [07:03] <kochi> ok, i'll let him contact you.
# [07:03] <kochi> maybe not. I'll forward what I did to join WG.
# [07:03] <MikeSmith> every member of the WebApps WG has push access to that spec
# [07:04] <MikeSmith> but I can add people manually too
# [07:04] <MikeSmith> so just e-mail the info if you want me to add somebody
# [07:04] <kochi> I see. I remember I got approval to join WG by TV Raman, but you can also do, right?
# [07:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [07:04] <kochi> i see
# [07:04] <MikeSmith> but the person at least needs to have a W3C account/username already
# [07:05] <kochi> btw, are you working there in Matsumoto?
# [07:05] <kochi> is a W3C account/username different from W3C bugzilla account?
# [07:06] <MikeSmith> yeah, they are two different accounts
# [07:06] <MikeSmith> and yeah I am working here in Matsumoto]
# [07:06] <kochi> heh, but enjoy staying there!
# [07:08] <kochi> MikeSmith: btw, you may find *him* in http://dena.com/recruit/students/internship/techstudig2013.html
# [07:08] <JonathanNeal> Sometimes I look at the sectioning elements in print, and I just about give up http://desktoppub.about.com/od/newsletters/a/newsletter_part.htm
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# [07:18] <JonathanNeal> The anatomy of an <hgroup> in print seems to be: Headline, the H1. Kicker, the H2 coming before the H1, Hammer/Slammer, the H2 coming before the H1, but styled larger, Hammer being block, Slammer being inline. Deck, the H2 coming after the H1 (or the P in a SUBLINE).
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# [07:23] <kochi> MikeSmith: According to http://www.w3.org/Consortium/activities DOM working group is no longer active, usually DOM related issue is handled in WebApps WG?
# [07:23] <kochi> I know www-dom ML is good place to discuss any DOM issues, though
# [07:24] <kochi> mm, http://www.w3.org/DOM/Activity has the answer to that.
# [07:27] <zewt> the web died a horrible death the day it allowed pages to play audio without asking permission from the user
# [07:28] <zewt> murderous raging hatred
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# [07:38] <JonathanNeal> zewt: when was this? 1996?
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# [08:14] <MikeSmith> kochi: yeah WebApps WG is where DOM-related work is now
# [08:15] <MikeSmith> kochi: (sorry for delay in replying -- I stepped away for a bit)
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# [08:19] <kochi> MikeSmith: np, thanks!
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# [09:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I deployed earlier this week. Let's see how it goes
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# [10:06] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i haven't looked into hooking in to css-syntax yet. however, my hunch is that you can use abstract concepts like "declaration" and i can hook into that from cssom
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# [10:09] <darobin> mounir: I got replies from the GitHub team, they're on the issue
# [10:11] <SimonSapin1> zcorpan: Syntax defines things like "A declaration has a name, a value which consits of a list of component values, and an "important" flag."
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# [10:11] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: yeah
# [10:12] <zcorpan> so the text in the beginning saying that the output is a CSSOM tree seems like a lie, since it's not defined in terms of CSSOM objects
# [10:13] <SimonSapin> yeah, I sent a comment that maybe Syntax should not mention CSSOM at all
# [10:15] <zcorpan> if we need to keep CSSCharsetRule for compat, css-syntax needs to have an object for it in its output
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# [10:16] <SimonSapin> it does, "parse a stylesheet" will have a corresponding at-rule in the list of rules it returns
# [10:17] <SimonSapin> although this parsed at-rule does nothing, so I’m still convinced that it shouldn’t appear in the OM
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# [10:21] <zcorpan> ah, right, i thought it was stepped over after sniffing it or some such
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# [10:25] <annevk> the parser should build CSSOM objects I think
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# [10:27] <kochi> MikeSmith: We got a comment from Microsoft about IME API spec, and the comment included recommendation for whatwg inputmode attribute.
# [10:27] <zcorpan> there are several ways we can define things. either css-syntax is the central place where all css features are listed (it would need to be aware of the features to generate the right CSSOM objects instead of generic objects like now)
# [10:28] <zcorpan> or CSSOM is the central place that is aware of all css features
# [10:28] <kochi> MikeSmith: where is it best to discuss inputmode spec?
# [10:29] <zcorpan> or it's distributed across all the specs that define the relevant feature to say what CSSOM object it maps to (and maybe define the CSSOM interface, too)
# [10:29] <Ms2ger> Mm, DE
# [10:29] <zcorpan> or a combination of these
# [10:30] <zcorpan> in HTML, the DOM interface of an element is defined where the element is defined, and the parser is aware of the element if it needs special parsing
# [10:30] <zcorpan> CSS doesn't need special parsing though
# [10:32] <Ms2ger> I'd say it doesn't make sense to implement the interface without the feature or the other way around, so it makes more sense to define them together
# [10:32] <zcorpan> yeah
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# [10:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, great
# [10:36] <MikeSmith> kochi: a good place to discuss inputmode is on the whatwg mailing list
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# Session Close: Wed May 29 10:52:17 2013
#
# Session Start: Wed May 29 10:52:17 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [10:52] * Disconnected
# [10:53] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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# [10:53] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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# [11:08] <mounir> darobin: good news
# [11:08] <mounir> though, I will have no more excuse to slack :(
# [11:10] <asmodai> So I was working on some Selenium tests and noticed that I had tests working for Chrome/Firefox, yet failing for PhantomJS. Tracked it down to doing a (mistaken I think) get_attribute('label') call on an option element. FF en Chrome gave back what the visible text would be. PJS gave an empty string. Did I manage to grab an UA-internal attribute for the element in the case of FF/Chrome?
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# [11:22] <darobin> mounir: they haven't fixed it just yet, so enjoy the slacking while you can!
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# [11:36] <asmodai> Interesting, fiddling with some JavaScript myself on the same element gives me only id, value, selected. Wonder if Web Driver gets some additional information from the browser with the getElementAttribute() call.
# [11:46] <kochi> MikeSmith: thanks! i was away.
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# [12:15] <andyjpb> hi peeps
# [12:15] <andyjpb> I'm looking at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/IRC
# [12:16] <andyjpb> what is the rationale for this not being an HTTP header like the other cross origin policy stuff?
# [12:17] <jgraham> Wrong link?
# [12:17] <tomasf> IRC being an HTTP header?
# [12:17] <andyjpb> oops
# [12:17] <andyjpb> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Meta_referrer
# [12:19] <jgraham> abarth: ^
# [12:19] <jgraham> (I guess he is asleep though)
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# [12:20] <jgraham> (so you might want to wait 6 hours or so)
# [12:20] <andyjpb> It's ok.. I have all day
# [12:20] <andyjpb> ;-)
# [12:21] <jgraham> One common reason for preferring meta over http headers is that they are relatively easy to add
# [12:22] <andyjpb> ...or forget to add ;-)
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# [14:08] <darobin> MikeSmith: were you involved in setting up some of the test media files like http://media.w3.org/2010/05/sound/sound_5 ?
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# [14:12] <Ms2ger> darobin, that was plh
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# [14:13] <darobin> Ms2ger: ah, ok, thanks
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# [14:13] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/mid/1273815461.31439.19.camel@chacal
# [14:13] <darobin> thanks, that's helpful
# [14:13] <Ms2ger> Np
# [14:14] <darobin> one of those is 160MB — I'm not entirely convinced we need that :)
# [14:15] <jgraham> Sometimes having large resources can be helpful for certain tests
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# [14:15] <jgraham> It's always nice if they aren't large static files though
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# [14:16] <jgraham> Need a bot here that can give messages when people reconnect
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# [14:20] <darobin> do you know what the examples directory is for at the root of the test repo?
# [14:21] <darobin> because the big file is only needed for that
# [14:21] <jgraham> Ask plh
# [14:21] <Ms2ger> Nothing
# [14:21] <jgraham> Although I think Ms2ger's answer is correct
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# [14:22] <jgraham> Pretty sure only plh has added stuff there, and that if he wants to continue his idea of having a collection of examples it should go elsewhere
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# [14:26] <darobin> ok, thanks
# [14:26] <darobin> because most of the big files are referenced from there
# [14:26] <darobin> so I'll just ignore those
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# [14:31] <MikeSmith> darobin: was not involved in setting those up
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# [14:33] <darobin> MikeSmith: thanks, Ms2ger traced it to plh for me
# [14:33] <MikeSmith> ah ok
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# [14:38] <darobin> mmmm
# [14:38] <darobin> I wonder if I should've used the submission/ prefix for these PRs, even though they're not submissions
# [14:39] <darobin> anyway: I just made PRs to 1) add a license, and 2) switch the media to local
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# [15:44] <asmodai> After some confusion on my part earlier today, I found out that it seems PhantomJS doesn't adhere to the specs (unless I still misunderstood things): https://github.com/ariya/phantomjs/issues/11365
# [15:45] <SimonSapin> How related are W3C document licensing and the patent policy? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2013AprJun/0267.html (Member only link, sorry)
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# [15:47] <SimonSapin> can’t we have both open licensing and and patent policy?
# [15:47] <annevk> read the reply
# [15:49] <hsivonen> I’m [redacted] that [redacted] [redacted] [redacted] in the Member space of the W3C.
# [15:49] <asmodai> lol
# [15:52] <SimonSapin> damn, I fell right into the FUD
# [15:54] <annevk> @w3cwtf tweeting it should give you a hint too
# [15:54] <SimonSapin> yeah
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# [15:57] <darobin> SimonSapin: you're not the only one who thinks there may be something fishy with that argument :)
# [15:59] <SimonSapin> one more reason I’m glad I picked this side
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# [16:05] <jgraham> Member space is good for giving a nice place to post the crazy without being ridiculed in public
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# [16:07] <Ms2ger> That's not exactly accurate
# [16:07] <Ms2ger> We still ridicule in public
# [16:08] <SimonSapin> by the way, who’s behind @w3cwtf?
# [16:08] <Ms2ger> No comment
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# [16:09] <SimonSapin> that was quick :)
# [16:18] <GPHemsley> MikeSmith: I haven't yet decided how to define "whitespace character" because I haven't decided whether to treat the MIME type as a byte sequence or a string of characters.
# [16:18] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: The intention is to use it anywhere that MIME types appear. I have to add the caveat that protocol-specific handling would have to be done first.
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# [16:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: thx for like actually mentioning this (at some point I'm gonna have to sit down and make sure we actually match the spec in html5lib…)
# [16:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: And that's going to be painful.
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# [16:25] <jgraham> gsnedders: BTW asserting that all tag names/attribute names/values are strings in the treewalker broke stuff
# [16:26] <jgraham> Well, broke end users
# [16:26] <jgraham> s/strings/unicode/
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# [16:26] <jgraham> Because they would parse a tree, do something like document.body.appendChild(document.createElement("foo"))
# [16:27] <jgraham> and then the document wouldn't serialize
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# [16:30] <gsnedders> jgraham: So I guess we just need to rely on implicit unicode conversion there, lovely.
# [16:31] <darobin> yay baby fucking yay!
# [16:31] <darobin> \o/
# [16:31] * darobin solved the PHP configuration problem
# [16:31] <Ms2ger> Are you sure?
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# [16:32] <darobin> turns out that Debian adds its own layer of fuckedupness atop the ample doses of moronitude provided by Apache and PHP
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# [16:32] <darobin> Ms2ger: not in general, just for w3c-test.org
# [16:33] <darobin> well, that's just hour upon hour of my life that I'm not getting back
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# [16:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: So the question is then how do we decode everything to unicode using the default encoding on Python 2 and raise TypeError on Python 3 without ugly hacks.
# [16:48] * gsnedders wonders if u"" + u"abc" causes an allocation
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# [17:39] <GPHemsley> Anyone have IE handy?
# [17:39] <GPHemsley> http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml;%22=;charset=iso-8859-3%20%22=iso-8859-5
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# [17:40] <JonathanNeal> At least User Agent Strings are starting to calm down… not
# [17:40] <JonathanNeal> Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_8_3) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/28.0.1500.20 Safari/537.36 OPR/15.0.1147.18 (Edition Next)
# [17:41] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: You always seem to appear right after I say something that might be relevant to you
# [17:41] <GPHemsley> (in this case, it's another IE request)
# [17:41] <JonathanNeal> Go for it.
# [17:41] <GPHemsley> http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml;%22=;charset=iso-8859-3%20%22=iso-8859-5
# [17:42] <SimonSapin> fwiw, I found http://www.modern.ie/en-us/virtualization-tools#downloads pretty strig
# [17:42] <SimonSapin> pretty straightforward
# [17:42] <JonathanNeal> Okay, in Chrome it appears like an xml doc, text/xml. Same in IE6,7,8, except the Japanese is just squares.
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# [17:43] <zewt> jeez, google can be outright disgraceful sometimes
# [17:43] <GPHemsley> SimonSapin: Yeah, I'm looking at that now, actually. I'll get it set up eventually :P
# [17:44] <zewt> code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=10076 "can you document this?" closed by design "but can you document this?" two years later "hey guys this is still not documented can you document it" their solution: ticket flagged to not allow comments
# [17:44] <zewt> problem solved!
# [17:44] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: It's that square thing that I'm interested in. That suggests it uses -3.
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# [17:45] <GPHemsley> Which makes my life more difficult
# [17:45] <GPHemsley> perhaps
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# [17:46] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: What about this? http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml;%22charset%22=iso-8859-3
# [17:46] <JonathanNeal> Little squares.
# [17:46] <JonathanNeal> Almost every time I see little squares.
# [17:47] <JonathanNeal> (almost every time you share one of these links)
# [17:47] <GPHemsley> squares means it's using iso-8859-3 encoding
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# [17:47] <GPHemsley> (-5 would be Cyrillic characters)
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# [17:48] <GPHemsley> that's intriguing
# [17:48] <GPHemsley> in this case
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# [17:50] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: and this? http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/xml;%22charset=iso-8859-3
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# [17:52] <SteveF> JonathanNeal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013May/0164.html
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# [17:54] * GPHemsley happens to think that <hgroup> and <subline> can coexist
# [17:55] <JonathanNeal> Checking
# [17:55] <GPHemsley> For example, <subline> could also be associated with an <hgroup>
# [17:55] <GPHemsley> Hixie: I wonder if you should treat singleton headers as having an implicit hgroup, barring explicit ones?
# [17:55] <JonathanNeal> IE6-8, little squares.
# [17:55] <GPHemsley> s/barring/except when there are/
# [17:55] <JonathanNeal> Wish there was a control so I could see something other than squares.
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# [17:56] <GPHemsley> The squares are replacement/missing characters
# [17:56] <GPHemsley> if you want, change -3 to -5
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# [17:56] <GPHemsley> then you'll get Cyrillic
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# [17:59] <JonathanNeal> Nice, SteveF!
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# [18:02] <JonathanNeal> In traditional news print, there were at least four different ways of marking up the elements of a header. http://i.imgur.com/jwcBObk.png I am glad to see the web normalizing these, based on content rather than appearance.
# [18:02] <GPHemsley> oh wow, this IE virtualization is pretty neat
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# [18:07] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: Oh, apparently I was wrong. In this case, the squares mean utf-8
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# [18:11] <Hixie> MikeSmith: 0.89% for 8000 pages vs 1%-10% for 1-10 billion pages is well within the margin of error for the former, so that is quite consistent data.
# [18:12] <Hixie> MikeSmith: makes sense (re <menuitem>)
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# [18:14] <JonathanNeal> SteveF: what does zero or more div/p elements mean?
# [18:14] <Hixie> GPHemsley: not sure what you mean re implicit <hgroup>
# [18:15] <JonathanNeal> I can't say I've seen a restriction on the content of an element like that.
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# [18:15] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: what kind of content goes in each of those parts of the header?
# [18:15] <GPHemsley> Hixie: If any occurrence of a <hN> occurs outside of an explicit <hgroup>, assume an implicit <hgroup> around it
# [18:16] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Then <subline> can be associated with an hgroup
# [18:16] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: (btw, the spec tries to distinguish between "header" and "heading", where the former is a variety of things including navigation, and the latter is specifically what should appear in the table of contents)
# [18:16] <Hixie> GPHemsley: not sure what you mean by "assume an implicit"
# [18:16] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Like if <tbody> is missing, for example
# [18:16] <Hixie> oh in the parser?
# [18:16] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: googling any of those key words usually brings up one or another example, http://desktoppub.about.com/od/newsletters/a/newsletter_part.htm http://www.uiowa.edu/~c019136/136s5online17/hedjargon.html http://behindbylines.wordpress.com/2013/02/13/journalist-lingo-confusion-cleared/
# [18:16] <GPHemsley> sure
# [18:16] <Hixie> that's a non-starter, we'd break a ton of the Web
# [18:16] <Hixie> lots of CSS assumes there's no <hgroup> there
# [18:17] <GPHemsley> is tbody explicitly exposed to the styling when it's not there?
# [18:17] <JonathanNeal> GPHemsley: I think so, yes?
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# [18:17] <GPHemsley> oh, hm
# [18:17] <Hixie> GPHemsley: it's in the DOM, so yes
# [18:17] <GPHemsley> m
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# [18:18] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: are "hammer" and "slammer" the same thing, or two things?
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# [18:20] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: much like early HTML, the names are synonymous with their styling.
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# [18:20] <JonathanNeal> kicker is before and diminutive.
# [18:21] <JonathanNeal> rather, kicker is before and lesser in importance than the headline.
# [18:21] <JonathanNeal> hammer is before and stronger in importance than the headline. e.g kicker is small and hammer is big.
# [18:22] <JonathanNeal> Slammer is before and stronger in importance, but inline with the headline.
# [18:22] <Hixie> are there web sites styled this way i could look at?
# [18:22] <Hixie> all these examples seem to be about print
# [18:22] <Hixie> cnn for example doesn't seem to use this style
# [18:22] <JonathanNeal> Exactly, my original point was that I'm glad the web has normalized these. However, probably due to the original constraints of the web, most of these ceased to exist online.
# [18:22] <Hixie> it's more <hgroup>-like
# [18:22] * Ms2ger wonders if Hixie meant these slammers: http://derek.broox.com/photo/closet-cleaning/full/11163/pog-slammers.jpg
# [18:23] <JonathanNeal> The deck is about the only thing that survives.
# [18:23] <JonathanNeal> And I've seen it mislabeled as a byline, by Twitter Bootstrap for instance.
# [18:23] <Hixie> the deck isn't part of the heading, it's just a paragraph
# [18:23] <Hixie> can be part of the header
# [18:23] <Hixie> but that's a separate issue
# [18:23] <JonathanNeal> The deck is what we think of as the hgroup's h2-6, or the subline.
# [18:24] <Hixie> oh? in http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2013/05/us/sutter-walk-oklahoma/ what would you say is the deck?
# [18:24] <JonathanNeal> The deck isn't necessarily a paragraph, it can be just a part of a sentence.
# [18:24] <Hixie> oh, wait, i'm confusing the deck and the lede
# [18:24] <Hixie> yeah the deck is just the h2 in the hgroup
# [18:25] <JonathanNeal> In your example, according to traditional print, the <h2> is the heading.
# [18:25] <Hixie> both the h1 and the h2 are the heading
# [18:26] <Hixie> that page is actually a perfect example of what hgroup was designed for
# [18:26] <Hixie> it perfectly wraps the h1/h2
# [18:26] <JonathanNeal> But the <h2> could also be the deck. It would be contextual with the styling of the newspaper as a whole. As writers who care about the meaning regardless of style, we're left to guess.
# [18:27] <Hixie> imho <hgroup> is quite well-designed -- it fits right into how authors actually write pages today, it just paves a cowpath
# [18:27] <Hixie> i don't understand why it's controversial
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# [18:27] <JonathanNeal> Based on the source, "Walking the path of a tornado" is the headline. Based on appearance and print tradition, "A journey into the heart of a 17-mile storm" is the heading.
# [18:27] <JonathanNeal> *headline
# [18:27] <Hixie> they're both the heading
# [18:28] <JonathanNeal> Yes, they are.
# [18:28] <JonathanNeal> A deck is also a headline.
# [18:28] <Hixie> anyway, gotta head out, meeting. bbiab.
# [18:29] <Hixie> if someone could explain why hgroup is controversial while i'm away, please do, i'll read the scrollback :-)
# [18:29] <JonathanNeal> But on the web, we've tried to learn from and distinguish content better than print.
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# [18:30] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: I would say http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup does a pretty good job.
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# [18:51] <annevk> Hixie: btw, you're behind in commits, @WHATWG has more followers than you have commits these days
# [18:51] <GPHemsley> (isn't that kind of the goal?)
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# [18:52] <annevk> only take me serious when needed GPHemsley :p
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# [18:55] <GPHemsley> hgroup has structural semantics, subline has content semantics
# [18:55] <GPHemsley> I'm telling you, they're different things
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# [19:12] <JonathanNeal> Another good example of headline elements in print http://www.tameri.com/dtp/elements.html
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# [19:15] <GPHemsley> I would argue the CNN article mentioned earlier should use <hgroup>
# [19:16] <GPHemsley> when it comes to a news article, <hN> and <hgroup> should be in headlinese
# [19:16] <GPHemsley> <subline> should be in full sentences
# [19:17] <GPHemsley> <hgroup> should be used if you could alternatively put a colon between the headers
# [19:17] <GPHemsley> s/headers/<hN>s/
# [19:18] <GPHemsley> So, for the CNN article, "Walking the path of a tornado: A journey into the heart of a 17-mile storm"
# [19:18] <JonathanNeal> We're both trying to distinguish content from the body of an article / section / page, right?
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# [19:20] <JonathanNeal> If you've got a moment, GPHemsley, I want to get us on the same page, and then work from there.
# [19:20] <GPHemsley> abstractly, yes
# [19:22] <GPHemsley> we're trying to put the right content into the right buckets
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# [19:39] <GPHemsley> http://i.imgur.com/5vsMypV.jpg
# [19:40] <GPHemsley> <subline> is better for those
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# [19:41] <GPHemsley> subline p:first-child { font-weight: bolder; }
# [19:43] <GPHemsley> <subline> is like a pseudo-hgroup; it's a header that's not a header
# [19:44] <GPHemsley> (maybe use it for pull quotes, too)
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# [19:44] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Okay, cool, I'll remove mentions of CSSOM.
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# [19:45] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Syntax could remove the @charset rule from the input stream if necessary.
# [19:45] <GPHemsley> hmm... actually, this paper only uses bold on the first one if there's more than one
# [19:46] <GPHemsley> I wonder how you could style that...
# [19:47] <GPHemsley> (it's almost as if it's the header of the subline...)
# [19:48] <GPHemsley> oh, maybe subline > header
# [19:48] <GPHemsley> though that's less automated
# [19:49] <GPHemsley> SteveF: Thoughts?
# [19:49] <SteveF> GPHemsley: not a lot at the mo, am reading in between wrangling kids and preparing dinner
# [19:50] * GPHemsley wonders why extensions refer specifically to HTML5 when they plan to be versioned separately (or won't make it into HTML5.0)
# [19:50] <GPHemsley> SteveF: Ah, OK; wasn't sure you were here
# [19:52] <SteveF> GPHemsley: yeah here lurking
# [19:52] <GPHemsley> SteveF: In particular, I think your Dr. Strangelove examples should actually use hgroup too
# [19:53] <GPHemsley> because "Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb" is most certainly part of the title
# [19:55] <SteveF> GPHemsley: the why not use a single hx?
# [19:55] <GPHemsley> Because it's a secondary part of the title
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# [19:57] <SteveF> GPhemsley: I can do the same with a span and display:block in h1
# [19:57] <GPHemsley> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2458800
# [19:57] <GPHemsley> but that doesn't give it semantic substance
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# [19:59] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: Thoughts?
# [19:59] <JonathanNeal> I like it. I'm writing up something similar, myself.
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# [20:02] <GPHemsley> You should be able to remove all <subline> elements from an <article> and still be able to comprehend the contents
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# [20:02] <GPHemsley> I think
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# [20:02] <GPHemsley> you can't do that for <hN> or <hgroup>
# [20:03] <SteveF> GPhemsley: this is what is supposed to be convyed to assitive tech http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2458803 don't see any differentiation there
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# [20:03] <SteveF> GPHemsley: as per the implementation pushed by hixie
# [20:03] <GPHemsley> Is that so? Because that's not what I would expect
# [20:04] <SteveF> GPhemsley:what would you expect?
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# [20:04] <GPHemsley> To me, <hgroup> means "these headings all refer to the same section", not "these are all the same heading"
# [20:05] <SteveF> GPhemsley: thats not how the acc layer is specced
# [20:05] <GPHemsley> well, then perhaps that is the problem, Hixie?
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# [20:07] <GPHemsley> normally, a new <hN> element implicitly creates a new section
# [20:07] <GPHemsley> <hgroup> prevents that from happening
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# [20:07] <GPHemsley> at least, according to my intuitive understanding
# [20:08] <GPHemsley> it doesn't make any heading level any different from what it is stated as
# [20:08] <GPHemsley> like I said earlier, it should be treated like a colon separator
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# [20:09] <GPHemsley> (the Strangelove example is a little different, since it explicitly uses "or", but still)
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# [20:11] <SteveF> GPHemsley: "HGROUP elements are essentially equivalent to headings that contain multiple "paragraphs" (in the sense defined in the HTML specification). They should be conveyed as such to accessibility tools. This means setting the "heading" role on the HGROUP element, and treating the Hx elements in the HGROUP element the same way as paragraphs are treated normally. " http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/C
# [20:11] <SteveF> hange_Proposal_for_ISSUE-129#Bug_10592:_Request_regarding_the_ARIA_role_of_heading_elements_inside_HGROUP_elements
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# [20:11] <JonathanNeal> Here's my mud to the mix. https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5672276
# [20:11] <GPHemsley> ah, hmm
# [20:11] <SteveF> GPHemsley: from horses mouth
# [20:12] <SteveF> anyway sorry gotta go for real witll read scrollback
# [20:12] <SteveF> laters
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# [20:14] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: I think the kicker/hammer/slammer concept is a bit complex
# [20:14] <GPHemsley> I'm also not sure whether bylines should go in <subline>
# [20:15] <GPHemsley> (and I'm also not sure about having out-of-order <hN>s in <hgroup>)
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# [20:15] <GPHemsley> so that's about half your document that I'm not sure about :P
# [20:16] <JonathanNeal> It's food for thought. I think the limitations of web have created this bias.
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# [20:16] <JonathanNeal> Just like you might find it weird to have multiple sublines http://prosintraining.com/gateway/wp-content/themes/CherryTruffle/timthumb.php?src=http://prosintraining.com/gateway/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/headline.gif&h=200&w=200&zc=1
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# [20:18] <GPHemsley> that third one seems like a deck
# [20:18] <JonathanNeal> And here's a kicker http://unix.temple.edu/~susanj/design/new/kicker.jpg http://unix.temple.edu/~susanj/design/new/kicker2.jpg
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# [20:19] <JonathanNeal> and another kicker http://www.osu.edu/assets/brand/unitid-kicker.png
# [20:19] <JonathanNeal> Alive and well in print.
# [20:19] <GPHemsley> yeah, I'm down with having a kicker
# [20:19] <GPHemsley> I just don't know if this is the appropriate place for it
# [20:20] <JonathanNeal> But kickers are reverse order <hN>s in an <hgroup>.
# [20:20] <GPHemsley> Are they? They seem more like categories to me
# [20:20] <JonathanNeal> How would you mark those up? http://desktoppub.about.com/od/glossary/g/Kicker.htm
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# [20:21] <GPHemsley> well, that's why I said it was more complex — I'm not sure :P
# [20:22] <GPHemsley> we could have <supline>
# [20:22] <GPHemsley> but we're kind of blurring the line between style and semantics
# [20:23] <GPHemsley> keep in mind that one kicker could apply to multiple articles
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# [20:24] <GPHemsley> (e.g. in "Nation" and "World" sections, where the state/country is in the kicker)
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# [20:26] <TabAtkins> annevk: What ever happened with the XML5 or MicroXML or Error-Tolerant XML or whatever effort?
# [20:27] <JonathanNeal> Looking at the example provided earlier, <hgroup> and/or <subline> answer http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2013/05/us/sutter-walk-oklahoma/ addressing the headings and bylines.
# [20:27] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, nobody cares enough to implement it, I guess
# [20:27] <TabAtkins> annevk: Asking because one of our implementors is starting an experiment with just using the HTML parser (in foreign content mode) for standalone SVG, just like SVG-in-HTML currently uses.
# [20:27] <JonathanNeal> <hgroup> alone does not, if we think bylines should matter to outline / accessibility.
# [20:28] <JonathanNeal> Ha, http://www.concordmonitor.com/readerservices/informationalpages/5618276-95/web-headline
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# [20:30] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: Was that an agreement, then? (I can't tell)
# [20:31] <JonathanNeal> I'm not agreeing that we're blurring the line between semantics and style. I'm just referring to the usage of lesser headings that come before main headings.
# [20:32] <JonathanNeal> Especially those that catagorize the heading, where it's "beforeness" is clearly there for meaning more than style.
# [20:32] <GPHemsley> I'm just not clear on what you mean in reference to the CNN article
# [20:32] <GPHemsley> (which has no kicker, AFAICT)
# [20:33] * Ms2ger kicks this conversation already
# [20:33] <GPHemsley> :)
# [20:34] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: To me, anything in <hgroup> should be in a document outline; if it shouldn't be in a document outline, then it shouldn't be in <hgroup>
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# [20:35] <JonathanNeal> Stuff that belongs in <header> but not <hgroup>, yes.
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# [20:36] <JonathanNeal> I guess a kicker could be a <p> in a <header> above an <h1>
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# [20:36] <GPHemsley> that sounds relatively reasonable
# [20:36] <GPHemsley> (though it certainly loses its semantic value)
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# [20:36] <JonathanNeal> Exactly, that later part is why I've liked <subline>
# [20:37] <GPHemsley> right
# [20:37] <nimbu> TabAtkins: pingping
# [20:38] <JonathanNeal> Except, I think <subline> should be liberal, so it can address kickers as well as decks. Then again, I also think <hgroup> should be liberal, and accept out of order <hN>, like "Lord of the Rings" and "The Return of the King".
# [20:38] <GPHemsley> <header><subline class="kicker">...</subline><hgroup class="headline">...</hgroup><subline class="deck">...</subline></header>
# [20:38] <GPHemsley> yeah, perhaps we need a better name than "subline"
# [20:38] <GPHemsley> IDK
# [20:39] <GPHemsley> JonathanNeal: Also, I'm not necessarily arguing against out-of-order <hN>s in <hgroup>; I was just stating that I don't think they're currently allowed
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# [20:39] <GPHemsley> your example is a good one
# [20:39] <GPHemsley> I suppose
# [20:40] <GPHemsley> depending on what you were trying to focus on
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# [20:50] <tantek> could someone here who is *not* a W3C member / invited expert see if they can access this? https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/html-charter-2013-2/results
# [20:50] <tantek> just trying to double-check its W3C member-only-ness
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# [20:56] <svl> tantek: I get a basic authentication request for "W3CACL" (so can't access it)
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# [20:58] <tantek> thanks svl - that was what I was wondering.
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# [21:12] <TabAtkins> nimbu: pomg
# [21:12] <TabAtkins> tantek: Just turn on your incognito mode or whatever when you need to check that stuff.
# [21:13] <tantek> thanks TabAtkins - good work around - except some IP blocks are whitelisted as from members
# [21:13] <TabAtkins> tantek: Oh, interesting. I didn't know that.
# [21:13] <tantek> e.g. for example, *anyone* inside Microsoft's corpnet can access W3C member resources
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# [21:13] <tantek> wouldn't surprise me if the same thing was true for Google's internal net
# [21:14] <TabAtkins> It's not.
# [21:14] <tantek> it's also true inside Apple's internal net
# [21:15] <tantek> TabAtkins - next time you're at a WG meeting of any sort at a W3C member company, try it out
# [21:16] <tantek> suffice it to say, sometimes hosting companies "accidentally" give WG members internal net access, probably trusting them on the honor system
# [21:16] <tantek> (and assume all traffic is logged obv)
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# [21:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: I wonder if we should ask the Bleach guys if they want to maintain the sanitizer…
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# [21:38] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well the thought had crossed my mind
# [21:38] <jgraham> But it doesn't solve the problem that it's fundamentally broken
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# [21:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: In what way? That it's designed for the tokenizer?
# [21:42] <jgraham> That it tries to deal with two different types of input as if they were the samewhen they are not
# [21:42] <jgraham> Or "yes"
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# [21:50] <jgraham> tantek: I thought W3C had stopped doing the ip whitelist thing
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# [21:54] <tantek> jgraham - really? as of when?
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# [21:55] <jgraham> Well it stopped working at Opera a couple of years ago iirc
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# [21:55] <jgraham> Possibly Microsoft are more special, I don't know
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# [22:00] <Hixie> GPHemsley: that seems to be a print thing. Does that kind of thing happen on the Web?
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# [22:00] <Hixie> gsnedders: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21308 indicates tests that html5lib needs
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# [22:08] <JonathanNeal> GPHemsley: http://i.imgur.com/bAueHbF.png
# [22:12] <Hixie> <header> <p class="category">Today in WWW</p> <h1> <strong> <h?>: </strong> Why writing headlines is too hard </h1> <p>Unsure of what to use, developers are now fighting over semantics.</p> </header> <p>It was...
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# [22:17] <TabAtkins> +1
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# [22:39] <tantek> jgraham - perhaps Opera changed their network provider and someone forgot to tell someone at W3C they had new IP addresses.
# [22:39] <tantek> easily could be one of the things that falls through the cracks
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# [23:07] <Hixie> can someone come up with a case where in the HTML parser, generating a </dd> when you've seen a <dd> and are going through the in-body steps for "dd", will not cause the earlier <dd> to be closed as we hoped before adding foreign content lands?
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# [23:14] <JonathanNeal> Same with bylines, in the <header>?
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# [23:16] <JonathanNeal> <h1>The Chronicals of Naria <strong>The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe</strong></h1> ?
# [23:16] <Hixie> that one is just an <hgroup>
# [23:16] <Hixie> <hgroup> <h1>The Chronicals of Narnia</h1> <h2>The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe</h2> </hgroup>
# [23:16] <Hixie> or actually
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# [23:16] <Hixie> even without the hgroup
# [23:16] <Hixie> since it's actually a site header followed by a page header
# [23:17] <Hixie> so just <h1>The Chronicals of Narnia</h1> <h2>The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe</h2>
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# [23:24] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: it's a category for the heading, but not the main heading.
# [23:24] <JonathanNeal> Think, <h2>Flower of the Day</h2><h1>Roses</h1>
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# [23:29] <Hixie> then <hgroup> <h2>Flower of the Day</h2><h1>Roses</h1></hgroup>, probably?
# [23:29] <Hixie> i'm not familiar with that style on the web
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# [23:32] <JonathanNeal> Interesting, does the <header> accomplish the same thing as <hgroup> or is HGTV getting it a little off? http://www.hgtvgardens.com/perennials/flower-of-the-day-delphinium
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> <header> doesn't do anything to the outline algorithm.
# [23:32] <JonathanNeal> Or rather http://viewsource.in/hgtvgardens.com/perennials/flower-of-the-day-delphinium#L316-318
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# [23:47] <JonathanNeal> Awesome http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PrFpbT8fQoo/TwnGjeJSUqI/AAAAAAAAAWc/Sn7mjr-BZ1I/s1600/IMG_0565.JPG
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# [23:50] <JonathanNeal> I would say that the way the web works has made it harder for websites to implement kickers and reverse order <hgroup> stuff, which is why we see less of them in the wild. The fact that decks and bylines survive is a testimony of their importance as an element of communication.
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# [23:51] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: come now, it's trivial to fake it with <div>s and <span>s
# [23:51] <JonathanNeal> or <p>s
# [23:52] <JonathanNeal> I guess the subject was made less trivial when <hgroup> was introduced.
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# [23:54] <JonathanNeal> What i mean by that is, for me the subject was made less trivial. Sorry, I'm still shaking bad communication habits.
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# [23:58] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders: do you still work on the outliner?
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# Session Close: Thu May 30 00:00:00 2013

The end :)