/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-05-31 / end

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# Session Start: Fri May 31 00:00:01 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:53] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I usually pronounce it "at-charset", but use a/an as if it started with "c".
# [00:53] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: that doesn't make sense
# [00:53] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: I'm not super-consistent with this, but I decided on this pattern a while ago in my specs and try to stick to it.
# [00:53] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: When writing, that is.
# [00:54] <TabAtkins> When speaking, since I'm pronouncing the "at", I use "an".
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# [00:55] <zcorpan> ok. i use an in cssom now.
# [00:57] <TabAtkins> It's not really important, so whatever. English's a/an thing is dumb.
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# [03:42] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins, zcorpan: As long as you don't use "an universal"...
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# [03:43] <TabAtkins> See? Dumb rule. Starts with a vowel, but pronounced with an initial "y" sound.
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# [04:01] <zewt> (the rule is "starts with a vowel sound", eg. open-mouthed, and that's not)
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# [04:25] * GPHemsley notes TabAtkins is using the "dumb rule" of two spaces after punctuation
# [04:26] * GPHemsley wonders if he's pointed this out before
# [04:26] * GPHemsley notes the "an" rule is one of phonology, which is naturalistic, not artificial
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# [06:06] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Punctuation rules don't actually matter to anything, and it's a habit in my fingers now.
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# [06:12] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Didn’t we resolve on 'pad' rather than 'fill'? https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/372efb71c9ca http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0377.html
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# [06:13] <TabAtkins> Darn, did we? I misremembered, then.
# [06:13] <TabAtkins> I'll change it.
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# [08:28] <SteveF> GPHemsley: feel free to put your ideas to the WG
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# [09:49] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/2009/07/webidl-check is giving me 503
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# [09:51] <zcorpan> or rather http://www.w3.org/2009/07/webidl-check?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2Fcsswg%2Fcssom%2F&output=text
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# [09:53] <zcorpan> apparently http://dev.w3.org/csswg/
# [09:58] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: will check later
# [09:58] <MikeSmith> away from my PC at the moment
# [10:04] <Ms2ger> HTMLOptionsCollection has
# [10:04] <Ms2ger> getter (HTMLOptionElement or HTMLOptGroupElement)? namedItem(DOMString name);
# [10:04] <Ms2ger> Can it actually ever return a HTMLOptGroupElement?
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# [10:09] <jgraham> Why not?
# [10:09] <jgraham> At last per-spec
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# [10:12] <Ms2ger> select.options is the only HTMLOptionsCollection, right?
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# [10:14] <jgraham> I don't know of any others off the top of my head
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# [10:14] <Ms2ger> The options IDL attribute must return an HTMLOptionsCollection rooted at the select node, whose filter matches the elements in the list of options.
# [10:14] <Ms2ger> The list of options for a select element consists of all the option element children of the select element, and all the option element children of all the optgroup element children of the select element, in tree order.
# [10:14] <jgraham> Right
# [10:14] <jgraham> So it can contain optgroup elements
# [10:16] <Ms2ger> No it can't
# [10:16] <Ms2ger> It can contain children of optgroup elements
# [10:16] <jgraham> Oooh, interesting. I can't read
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# [10:41] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: it can't return HTMLOptGroupElement afaict
# [10:46] <Ms2ger> Good
# [10:46] <Ms2ger> I filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22225
# [10:50] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Bug would be better if you had written *can't*
# [10:50] <jgraham> :)
# [10:51] <zcorpan> heh, if i modify the tc is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15588 to have <html dir=rtl>, webkit scrolls to the bottom
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# [11:02] <Ms2ger> jgraham, well, more like, added "only"
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# [12:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: turns out to spec 'top of the document' i first have to support vertical writing modes throughout :-)
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# [13:17] <dekiss> shoudl I read the specification from w3c.org website or from whatwg.org
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# [13:17] <jgraham> whatwg.org
# [13:17] <dekiss> haha
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# [13:18] <dekiss> because I asked here you said that?
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# [13:18] <annevk> dekiss: feel free to ask us over email :p
# [13:18] <jgraham> I will say the same thing if you ask on the W3C servers too :)
# [13:18] <dekiss> I don't understand in whatwg website html living standard is updated non stop? continiously?
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# [13:18] <dekiss> ahah
# [13:18] <dekiss> fu
# [13:18] <dekiss> joke :D
# [13:18] <annevk> it is
# [13:18] <dekiss> are you people officials from whatwg? ^^
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# [13:18] <dekiss> you know ian ?
# [13:18] <annevk> dekiss: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ has a lot of the details
# [13:19] <dekiss> jgraham why will you do that?
# [13:19] <annevk> dekiss: i guess I'm an official in some way
# [13:19] <jgraham> It's only updated when Hixie's awake. Unless his cats get at the computer.
# [13:19] <dekiss> why I should read on whatwg.org and not on w3c.org?
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# [13:19] <annevk> dekiss: w3.org mostly forks whatwg.org and therefore the latter is more up to date
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# [13:19] <dekiss> so
# [13:19] <dekiss> I am confused
# [13:19] <annevk> dekiss: it's what implementers look at too typically
# [13:19] <dekiss> whatwg.org html standard is implemented in the web browsers or 23c standard?
# [13:20] <dekiss> thwy differ a little
# [13:20] <dekiss> w3c*
# [13:20] <dekiss> hm
# [13:20] <annevk> mostly WHATWG
# [13:20] <jgraham> Because on w3.org you are more likely to get an out of date version or a version with some features split out into other documents for political reasons, or simply a version without up to date bug fixes
# [13:20] <dekiss> so you say safari and opera for example (NOT IE) implement html from whatwg?
# [13:20] <dekiss> website
# [13:20] <dekiss> "split out for political reasons" ?
# [13:21] <dekiss> canvas is republican and html is democrat?
# [13:21] <dekiss> :D
# [13:21] <annevk> dekiss: I strongly recommend reading through the FAQ I just linked
# [13:21] <dekiss> why canvas is split out for political reasons
# [13:21] <dekiss> ok but
# [13:21] <dekiss> so you say safari and opera for example (NOT IE) implement html from whatwg?
# [13:22] <dekiss> tell me honestly and i wil lrespect you
# [13:22] <dekiss> ^^
# [13:22] <annevk> when I worked for Opera that was the case, I doubt it has changed
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# [13:22] <annevk> I think the same is true for Apple, but it may vary on a person-by-person basis
# [13:23] <dekiss> ah
# [13:23] <annevk> the short answer is that it's complicated and does not matter much
# [13:23] <dekiss> so you recommend me t oread we dev edition?
# [13:23] <dekiss> wil lI miss a lot ?
# [13:23] <dekiss> I am not web browser maker (for now)
# [13:23] <dekiss> I just make websites
# [13:23] <annevk> dekiss: what do you want to learn about?
# [13:23] <dekiss> adn web apps
# [13:23] <dekiss> web dev
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# [13:24] <annevk> dekiss: web dev edition would be a good start, but also e.g. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/ has good introductions to many topics
# [13:24] <dekiss> man you know if firefox chrome need workers? :D
# [13:24] <dekiss> I can even clean monitors hahah :D
# [13:24] <dekiss> but web dev monitors
# [13:25] <annevk> dekiss: http://careers.mozilla.org/en-US/
# [13:25] <dekiss> annevk I am not sure why I cant find list for all meta name atribbute values
# [13:25] <dekiss> on whatwg.org
# [13:25] <annevk> dekiss: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions
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# [13:26] <annevk> dekiss: also http://www.whatwg.org/C#standard-metadata-names (blessed by the HTML standard)
# [13:26] <dekiss> ok thanks annevk
# [13:27] <dekiss> how you found them
# [13:27] <dekiss> i coudlnt :S
# [13:28] <annevk> i know, basically
# [13:28] <annevk> but the latter you can find by searching for "meta element" within the HTML standard and then clicking on the "name" attribute and then scrolling down
# [13:28] <annevk> and I think at some point that links to the former
# [13:29] <dekiss> ok
# [13:29] <dekiss> thanks
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# [13:32] <dekiss> so DOM is developed at whatwg too?
# [13:32] <dekiss> I thought its w3c thing
# [13:33] <boogyman> the DOM is developed by implementers, the specification is co-authored by whatwg and w3c
# [13:34] <dekiss> hm
# [13:34] <dekiss> now im totaly lost
# [13:34] <dekiss> co-authored what it means?
# [13:34] <annevk> I write the DOM spec here: http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/
# [13:35] <JibberJim> co = lots of arguments
# [13:35] <dekiss> shoudl I read about DOM at whatwg or w3c
# [13:35] <JibberJim> dekiss: Somewhere else
# [13:35] <annevk> It's not currently being actively forked by the W3C.
# [13:35] <dekiss> so at whatwg website I should read DOM right?
# [13:35] <annevk> yes
# [13:36] <dekiss> thanks annevk
# [13:36] <darobin> it might not even be forked, just republished under RF :)
# [13:36] <dekiss> ever gona be dom 4?
# [13:36] <annevk> yes that'd be ideal
# [13:37] <annevk> dekiss: dunno, versioning is kind of a concept of the past
# [13:37] <dekiss> annevk
# [13:37] <dekiss> I have one very big concern about html5
# [13:37] <dekiss> first of all, all major website lets say: CNN, FAceook use only divs.. not single html5 element (header footer section)
# [13:38] <boogyman> dekiss: wrong
# [13:38] <dekiss> second, it is MUCH harder to make same website with html5 semantic elements
# [13:38] <dekiss> than divs
# [13:38] <dekiss> boogyman true check it
# [13:38] <boogyman> wrong again
# [13:38] <dekiss> now conclusion
# [13:38] <dekiss> why should I sue html5 semantic elements?
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# [13:38] <dekiss> just for impaired people or?
# [13:38] <annevk> dekiss: you should definitely sue them
# [13:38] <dekiss> third, does impaired people have A LOT of benefit if I use html5 semantic elements?
# [13:38] <annevk> dekiss: using them, is really up to you ;)
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# [13:39] <dekiss> I plan (and I will) test how much really impaired peopel benefit from html5 semantic elemnts
# [13:39] <dekiss> because they are HELL
# [13:39] <dekiss> I mean very harder to do same things with them than with divs
# [13:39] <dekiss> but if they help imapired people alot I will use them no mater how hard they are
# [13:40] <dekiss> annevk but you know exaclty how much impaired peopel benefit from them?
# [13:40] <boogyman> dekiss: accessibility devices don't care about the "semantic" elements, they care about having the appropriate context, which are provided with some of the "new" tags, but are still applicable for override using the WAI-ARIA attributes
# [13:40] <dekiss> because as I see I should use them only for impaired peoiple
# [13:40] <dekiss> boogyman WRONG
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# [13:41] <annevk> dekiss: he's correct actually
# [13:41] <dekiss> well
# [13:41] <dekiss> how come
# [13:41] <annevk> dekiss: search engines might have some benefit too
# [13:41] <dekiss> I read everywhere that html5 semantic elements help impaired people :S
# [13:41] <dekiss> now I am totally lost pls exaplin to me
# [13:41] <annevk> dekiss: the elements map onto semantics exposed by the assistive technology
# [13:42] <annevk> dekiss: boogyman is basically saying that, maybe in a different way than you understand ;)
# [13:42] <dekiss> man I understand this, when blind person read my page with speech or touch device he sees nav tag and he knows its menu
# [13:43] <dekiss> but I wonder if I put div with id="menu" I think he will know what it is
# [13:43] <dekiss> ..
# [13:43] <dekiss> so they benefit from them or not pls exaplin
# [13:43] <dekiss> aw
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# [13:43] <dekiss> why should I use html5 semnatic elements than
# [13:43] <dekiss> its much harder to make website with them and noone uses them I havent seen single page with them
# [13:44] <dekiss> look cnn.com and facebook.com websites
# [13:44] <boogyman> dekiss: example <ol role="navigation"><li><a href="/">home</a></li></ol> can be written like the following <nav><a href="/">home</a></nav>. the "role=navigation" is now implied due to the behind-the-scenes mapping the element has for the accessibility-enabled device.
# [13:45] <annevk> dekiss: large sites are slow adopters, but you'll see they switched doctypes
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# [13:45] <dekiss> I saw annevk
# [13:45] <dekiss> but
# [13:45] <dekiss> I am totally lost if not for imapired people then why should I use html5 elements
# [13:45] <dekiss> I find them useless ( some of them) other than that
# [13:46] <dekiss> and its much harder for meto make website with them (some of them) not all
# [13:46] <dekiss> if I make standard website okwith header footer etc but If I go with something different div is my friend
# [13:46] <annevk> dekiss: people using assistive technology (not sure I like the term impaired) will benefit is what we're saying
# [13:46] <boogyman> dekiss: Authors are encouraged to use the semantically appropriate tag, but are not forced to do so.
# [13:47] <annevk> dekiss: SteveF can tell you more, we're breaking up for lunch
# [13:47] <dekiss> annevk man once you said they will not once you say they will -_-
# [13:47] <dekiss> im totally lost now
# [13:47] <dekiss> ok
# [13:48] <dekiss> guys yo ugot me lost now pls help me
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# [13:48] <annevk> dekiss: I never said they won't ;-) As I said, you might not have understood all the terminology yet. I'd suggest reading up on things a bit more and generally absorb all the things ;-)
# [13:48] <dekiss> once yo usaid people wit hassisitive technology will benefit from html5 semantic elements and once you said they will not :S
# [13:49] <dekiss> hm
# [13:49] <dekiss> ok..
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# [13:49] <webben> dekiss: 'but I wonder if I put div with id="menu" I think he will know what it is' : no, browsers + assitive technology will present that exactly the same as any other div
# [13:49] <boogyman> dekiss: annevk said that large sights are slow adopters, meaning that it will take them longer to implement, not that they will not implement.
# [13:50] <SteveF> dekiss: depending on the browser use of HTML elements such as header/footer/aside etc are exposed to AT as landmarks which is useful
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# [13:50] <dekiss> webben assistive tech. will not tell man that div has id with value "menu"?
# [13:50] <webben> dekiss: id just creates a unique label for an element in a document, user software doesn't assume those labels have any special meaning
# [13:50] <dekiss> nah I will try this assistive tech. and see my self
# [13:50] <webben> and it doesn't normally present them to the end user
# [13:50] <dekiss> thats only true way to find out how really people benefit
# [13:51] <dekiss> any guide what assitive technology people use?
# [13:51] <dekiss> to read websites? is that software I guess or maybe hardware too?
# [13:51] <webben> dekiss: Bear in mind that AT is complicated to learn.
# [13:51] <dekiss> webben it is ok I want to know this so I will learn it
# [13:51] <webben> So you may get quite a confused idea of how it works if you don't have a bit of time to invest into learning it
# [13:51] <webben> dekiss: What platform are you on?
# [13:52] <dekiss> I keep at "web for all": thing :)
# [13:52] <dekiss> that s he point of web if you ask me its mission
# [13:52] <dekiss> and should be !
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# [13:52] <webben> That's laudable - what I'm warning you is that you may come to false beliefs about what AT can or cannot do or what is or is not useful because of your lack of knowledge of the software in question
# [13:52] <SteveF> dekiss: this http://www.html5accessibility.com/ covers support for various aspects of new html5 features, but it needs updating, there have been some improvements since last spetmebr
# [13:53] <webben> dekiss: Are you on Mac/*nix/Windows?
# [13:54] <dekiss> webben im on Windows
# [13:54] <dekiss> 7
# [13:54] <webben> dekiss: http://uiaccess.com/accessucd/ http://www.nvaccess.org/
# [13:54] <dekiss> webben I am going to lear this AT thing :)
# [13:54] <dekiss> tyhanks all for info guys
# [13:55] <boogyman> btw, welcome to web development :D
# [13:55] <dekiss> hope I wont get banned here too I managed to be ignored/muted/banned on most of freenode channels in a day or two :D
# [13:55] <dekiss> heheh -_-
# [13:55] <dekiss> thanks again
# [13:55] <boogyman> dekiss: if you are not rude, then you are welcome
# [13:55] <dekiss> boogyman thanks nice to meet you :F
# [13:55] <dekiss> :D
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# [14:11] <ondras> hi
# [14:12] <ondras> I am looking for some rather advanced assistance with CORS
# [14:12] <ondras> is this a suitable channel, or are there any better?
# [14:12] <ondras> more specifically, I am running into issues with credentialed requests and 302 redirects
# [14:12] <ondras> (basically this does not work at all, both ff & chrome)
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# [14:13] <dekiss> cors are for letting xss
# [14:13] <dekiss> you knwo right?
# [14:13] <dekiss> :)
# [14:13] <dekiss> why its not working
# [14:13] <ondras> my guess that 302 sets Origin:null to the second request (as per the spec)
# [14:13] <ondras> and this does not work with credentialed requests
# [14:13] <ondras> or something like that.
# [14:14] <ondras> chrome reports "Cannot make any requests from null. "
# [14:14] <ondras> (which does not appear when I redirect a non-credentialed xhr)
# [14:14] <dekiss> aw
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# [14:15] <dekiss> sry man Ihave some job and some problems myself I guess omeone wil lhelkp you
# [14:15] <dekiss> try #html #html5 too
# [14:15] <dekiss> also try #javascript
# [14:15] <dekiss> I think guys from javascript chn will help you try there pls
# [14:15] <ondras> I would appreciate some w3c member or so
# [14:15] <dekiss> try #html
# [14:15] <dekiss> im not from whatwg btw :)
# [14:15] <dekiss> some guys here are
# [14:17] <Ms2ger> annevk, CORS questions
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# [14:22] <dekiss> web browser creators must use html specifications standards from w3c or its up to them?
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# [14:30] <jgraham> web browser creators can do whatever they like, mostly
# [14:30] <jgraham> I mean it's not like W3C can send in darobin to break their fingers if they use a WHATWG spec
# [14:31] <dekiss> :D
# [14:31] <dekiss> ok thanks
# [14:31] <dekiss> so the yare recommendations liek they say :)
# [14:31] <dekiss> ok
# [14:31] <jgraham> Or invent a whole new proprietary platform that runs in their browser
# [14:31] <dekiss> but why all use them
# [14:31] <dekiss> hm ok
# [14:31] <dekiss> so xhtml 2 was shame? :D
# [14:31] <dekiss> so w3c adopted html5 to hide that shame? :D
# [14:31] <dekiss> hehehe
# [14:32] <dekiss> becasue xhtml didnt succeed at all?
# [14:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: yes?
# [14:33] <ondras> annevk: hi
# [14:33] <darobin> well
# [14:33] <ondras> 14:12 < ondras> more specifically, I am running into issues with credentialed requests and 302 redirects
# [14:33] <ondras> 14:12 < ondras> (basically this does not work at all, both ff & chrome)
# [14:34] <darobin> I do enjoy a pretext to break someone's fingers
# [14:34] <annevk> ondras: the redirect itself needs to opt in, are you doing that?
# [14:34] <dekiss> darobin you have muscles?
# [14:34] <darobin> dekiss: enough to operate some plyers, yes
# [14:34] <dekiss> :)
# [14:34] <ondras> annevk: what do you mean by "opt in"? it is a normal http/302 with correct access-control-... response headers
# [14:34] <ondras> annevk: but it redirects to another, "3rd" domain
# [14:35] <ondras> (1st being the JS one, 2nd being the one originally requested)
# [14:36] <jgraham> darobin: I guess all that free milk makes the google guys harder to intimidate.
# [14:36] <annevk> ondras: so the request is credentialed, does it require a preflight?
# [14:36] <ondras> no
# [14:36] <ondras> it is a GET with a custom Accept, so a Simple request
# [14:36] <annevk> and the 302 resource has both Access-Control-Allow-Origin and Access-Control-Allow-Credentials set?
# [14:36] <darobin> jgraham: ah, but they forget I worked in the Netherlands
# [14:36] <darobin> over there, they shove milk in your face all day long
# [14:37] <ondras> annevk: yes, but the redirected request has Origin: null
# [14:37] <ondras> annevk: which is correct per spec
# [14:37] <dekiss> so why faken IE is ruinning the web?
# [14:37] <dekiss> any idea?
# [14:37] <ondras> annevk: but causes "Cannot make any requests from null. " in Chrome
# [14:37] <ondras> (and fails silently in FF)
# [14:37] <dekiss> pls tell microsoft guys to stop sucking thanks in advance
# [14:37] <dekiss> sry I had to do it :)
# [14:37] <annevk> ondras: aah, is the final response Access-Control-Allow-Origin: null ?
# [14:37] <ondras> annevk: should be?
# [14:38] <ondras> will try in a sec
# [14:38] <annevk> ondras: it needs to match the Origin header
# [14:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15588
# [14:38] <dekiss> anyway I never understood why Bill Gates want to ruin the IT technology if its not profitable for him
# [14:38] <annevk> ondras: but yes, that's an annoying edge case implementations might not do correctly :/
# [14:38] <ondras> annevk: yeah, looks like this worked (at least in ff)
# [14:38] <ondras> annevk: let me try in chrome as well
# [14:38] <annevk> ondras: cool
# [14:38] <ondras> annevk: fails in chrome, apparently
# [14:39] <ondras> Cannot make any requests from null.
# [14:39] <annevk> if you could file a bug on them that'd be great
# [14:39] <ondras> (the request itself happens)
# [14:39] <annevk> abarth et al should just fix that
# [14:39] <ondras> annevk: will try, but it is hard for me to make them a simple testcase
# [14:39] <ondras> annevk: also, this issue does not happen if the requested and 302ed resource share origin
# [14:40] <annevk> ondras: if you file a bug and explain the redirect thing that should be sufficient
# [14:40] <annevk> ondras: feel free to name drop me
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# [14:40] <annevk> ondras: may or may not help
# [14:40] <ondras> annevk: also, does the 302ed resource need to return the Credentials header?
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# [14:41] <annevk> ondras: per spec, yes
# [14:41] <annevk> ondras: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#cors-check
# [14:42] <ondras> okay, thanks
# [14:42] <ondras> will double-check my testcase and report chrome bug
# [14:42] <ondras> also, let me test opera
# [14:43] <ondras> ...fails
# [14:43] <annevk> Clone Opera is Chrome
# [14:43] <annevk> Rebel Opera would prolly pass
# [14:44] <ondras> this one is a very old Opera
# [14:44] <ondras> probably from the times of the old republic
# [14:44] <ondras> 12.x or so
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# [14:49] <ondras> annevk: If the value of the header whose name is Access-Control-Allow-Origin within response's headers is true, return success.
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# [14:49] <ondras> annevk: probably a typo - should be "Credentials" ?
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# [14:52] <dekiss> at devices will read only html code not css and javascript at all?
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# [14:52] <boogyman> dekiss: don't double post
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# [14:53] <EvilMachine> Hello! So… how complete is the developers spec? I don’t want to miss out on even a single thing relevant to developers, so I would need it to be complete.
# [14:53] <annevk> ondras: thanks
# [14:54] <annevk> ondras: you want to be credited as "Ondra Zara"?
# [14:54] <ondras> annevk: Ondrej Zara, probably, but no need for this credit
# [14:55] <annevk> ondras: if there's a non-ASCII spelling that's fine too
# [14:55] <ondras> Ondřej Žára
# [14:55] <annevk> ondras: awesome
# [14:56] <dekiss> EvilMachine go away
# [14:56] <dekiss> he came here too -_-
# [14:56] <dekiss> this dude called me idiot trying to help him :| good luck helping him haha
# [14:56] <Ms2ger> Be nice.
# [14:56] <dekiss> boogyman ok but ansewr me pls
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# [14:56] <dekiss> ok
# [14:57] <dekiss> im he is not :S
# [14:57] <annevk> EvilMachine: it's synced every month or so, so it's a bit behind http://whatwg.org/C
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# [14:57] <annevk> ondras: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/commit/2038f66dcbe7d108a5fcb2c0c5f55b98319b7d07
# [14:57] <boogyman> dekiss: again rude. it's generally poor etiquette to discuss "bad" things across channels. leave it in the channel.
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# [14:58] <dekiss> ok
# [14:58] <dekiss> man he called me idiot for helping him not beign hacked :D
# [14:58] <Ms2ger> <p class="pubdate">23 November 2012</p> seems to suggest a bit less than every month
# [14:58] <Ms2ger> dekiss, leave it.
# [14:58] <dekiss> boogyman any idea about my question dude?
# [14:58] <boogyman> i answered it in #css
# [14:59] <dekiss> oh sry let me see
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# [14:59] <dekiss> um
# [14:59] <ondras> annevk: nice, thanks a lot and thanks for general assistance. going to file a chrome bug now and wait patiently :)
# [14:59] <dekiss> at devices interpret dom changes with scripts?
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# [15:09] <EvilMachine> annevk: Ah, so since the normal HTML5 spec is already a CR, and hence stable enough to use, the dev spec is too.
# [15:09] <EvilMachine> annevk: Thanks. :) That anwered my question.
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# [15:09] <EvilMachine> By the way: How come the spec reads like the instructions for the Holy Handgrenade? ;)
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# [15:11] <annevk> EvilMachine: we like Monty Python
# [15:11] <EvilMachine> annevk: I cannot possibly disagree with that. ;)
# [15:11] <matjas> hmm, since <title> may be omitted in HTML5, is `<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"/>` the shortest possible XHTML5 document?
# [15:12] <matjas> (if the document is an iframe srcdoc document or if title information is available from a higher-level protocol)
# [15:13] <annevk> matjas: sounds plausible
# [15:15] * Ms2ger wonders if head/body are required
# [15:15] <Ms2ger> Looks like they are
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# [15:16] * EvilMachine noticed a pattern in the HTML5 spec: If *three* IS a number /number/ of type Number /Number/, where Number IS a /type/ type, and it IS the third number, HAVING the name "three", then three IS the number it SHALL be, and the number it SHALL be is three. Not _four_, and not _two_ either. NEVER shall a user agent interpret it as not three, and NEVER shall it interpret its attribute as not three. Otherwise its developer s
# [15:17] <EvilMachine> ;)
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# [15:22] <EvilMachine> Why does it say “October 2012” in the title of http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-author/ ? Is this not that “updated monthly” thing you were talking about?
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# [15:22] <EvilMachine> annevk:
# [15:22] <EvilMachine> annevk: ↑
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# [15:22] <annevk> EvilMachine: you want http://developers.whatwg.org/
# [15:23] <EvilMachine> annevk: Aaah, alright.
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# [15:26] <EvilMachine> Oh-oh. “Living standard”… sound like “there will be no stability, and nobody can trust on any feature being reliably how he expects it to be”… I’m sure it wasn’t intended that way, because that would mean using huge amounts of time to keep up to date…
# [15:26] * EvilMachine checks the FAQ first.
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# [15:28] <EvilMachine> Hmm… it seems I can keep track of the “defined” spec. Not the “is actually implemented” (as in post-candidate-recommendation) spec…
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# [15:28] <EvilMachine> But that makes everything a mess. :(
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# [15:29] <zewt> (there are lots of things implemented that aren't in "CR" ...)
# [15:29] <EvilMachine> zewt: Exactly my point.
# [15:29] <zewt> no, "actually implemented" is not the same as "post CR"
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# [15:29] <EvilMachine> zewt: Also exactly my point.
# [15:30] <zewt> ...
# [15:30] <zewt> what? heh
# [15:30] <Ms2ger> Sounds like someone makes a lot of exact points
# [15:30] <EvilMachine> zewt: My point is, that everything is different and I can rely on nothing. ^^
# [15:30] <EvilMachine> Actually: s/^^/:(/
# [15:30] <Ms2ger> You can rely on everything that has been implemented and is used
# [15:31] <Ms2ger> You can't rely on anything else
# [15:31] <zewt> anyway, you equated "actually implemented" with "CR", which is inaccurate so I'm just explaining the difference (implemented is a superset of CR)
# [15:31] <EvilMachine> Ms2ger: Until it changes. Which is *all the time*.
# [15:31] <EvilMachine> zewt: Ah, okay, yes, you are of course right.
# [15:32] <zewt> and looking at text based on CR specs is definitely not a good way to get up-to-date info
# [15:32] <EvilMachine> zewt: You don’t say. ;)
# [15:32] <annevk> EvilMachine: living standards are basically better than what we had before, but no silver bullet
# [15:33] <jgraham> No, you really can't rely on anything. Just ask David Hume.
# [15:33] <annevk> EvilMachine: stability boxes on the side help
# [15:33] <EvilMachine> annevk: I don’t like it when people say thing like „better“ without saying why, though. ^^
# [15:33] <annevk> EvilMachine: I was hoping you'd read the FAQ for that
# [15:34] <EvilMachine> annevk: Ah… Well, that’s an ongoing process too. XD
# [15:34] <annevk> EvilMachine: in short, it better reflects the way software is developed and therefore the cycles between software and standards are shorter
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# [15:35] <EvilMachine> annevk: Being a developer too, I have to agree. But as a user the whole point of a standard is, that it is reliable (= non-changing).
# [15:35] <zewt> as a user (developer of software on the web), I disagree
# [15:36] <EvilMachine> annevk: In short: What do I develop my site against? I have no idea what to pick now.
# [15:36] <zewt> as a user specs are merely documentation for interfaces
# [15:36] <EvilMachine> zewt: spec ≠ standard
# [15:36] <zewt> uhh
# [15:36] <annevk> EvilMachine: typically people develop their sites against implementations, but you could develop it against the stable pieces of the HTML Living Standard (identified by the boxes)
# [15:37] <jgraham> When was the web ever non-changing?
# [15:37] <annevk> EvilMachine: you'll be better off than with HTML4
# [15:37] <EvilMachine> zewt: What I meant was: Yes, a spec is merely a documentation. Correct. A standard is more though, as it is a stable reliable point too. :)
# [15:37] <annevk> EvilMachine: typically that's a lie for software standards
# [15:38] <zewt> i disagree with the distinction but I'm not really interested in debating a tangental semantic, heh
# [15:40] <EvilMachine> annevk: "typically people develop their sites against implementations" – What? No! That is really really wrong! Nobody should *ever* write a website for a specific browser. Otherwise we end up in a “Best read in IE” world again.
# [15:40] <Ms2ger> There's a difference between what happens and what should happen
# [15:40] <zewt> if you want to know what actually works in browsers, and which versions of browsers, and how well-deployed that version is, you're always going to need extra resources (things like caniuse) and testing (even "CR" has never meant "implemented in every browser")
# [15:40] <EvilMachine> annevk: How is it a lie? You mean when browser developers can’t properly implement a standard if their lives depended on it? ;)
# [15:40] <Ms2ger> As you might have noticed, we already are in the "You can only use Chrome" world
# [15:40] <annevk> Ms2ger: don't make it more confusing than it needs to be
# [15:41] <annevk> EvilMachine: it means that while we implement we find things that need changing
# [15:41] <jgraham> I am confident that browser vendors couldn't correctly implement standards if their life depended on it
# [15:41] <EvilMachine> Ms2ger: Then you live in another universe than I do. Such a site never ever flies in practice. My clients would never accept a site that only runs in one browser.
# [15:41] <jgraham> Not least because in that situation no one would work for a browser vendor
# [15:41] <annevk> And yes, what jgraham says is also the sad truth. Implementing is hard.
# [15:42] <zewt> you seem to be suggesting either 1: all browser vendors release versions in lockstep, implementing features at exactly the same time, or 2: the web implements a set of features, then stops, and we can never add anything because it would cause differing feature sets; obviously both are nonsense
# [15:42] <EvilMachine> annevk: I’m not easily confused. Don’t worry. :)
# [15:42] <jgraham> and there would be so much red tape that no new things would happen
# [15:42] <jgraham> and the web platform would calcify and become irrelevant
# [15:42] <jgraham> and there would be no more browser vendors
# [15:42] <Ms2ger> EvilMachine, that must be the case, then
# [15:42] <EvilMachine> annevk: Yes, that’s why there is a version number for a standard. The changes get into the next version.
# [15:43] <annevk> EvilMachine: as an implementor, I want them integrated next hour
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# [15:45] <zewt> as a user, i sure don't want to wait a year and a half for a giant cycle of spec update, spec ratification, then wait for a long browser update cycle to catch up (which is exactly what we had, which is a trap we've finally, for the most part, broken out of)
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# [15:46] <annevk> note also that the browser sometimes cannot implement the spec because it has a bug, so it needs to be fixed
# [15:46] <annevk> e.g. HTML4 has plenty of bugs
# [15:46] <EvilMachine> zewt: No, that wasn’t what I suggested. Let me clarify: I suggested that as a developer, I get a new version of a standard every year (or more), which I can actually use, since I can trust that until the end of said cycle, browsers will always try the best they can to behave that way. If I can’t trust on that, the spec/standard/api becomes useless.
# [15:46] <zewt> also it avoids the mistake of assuming all features on the web are developed together, in a specific, predictable order, which is what versioning assumes
# [15:47] <zewt> your conclusion is plainly wrong (since the specs and APIs are extraordinarily useful)
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# [15:47] <EvilMachine> jgraham: I think you may be hallucinating. ^^
# [15:47] <EvilMachine> jgraham: Or will the world end and satan will come with its Trident to smite us all? ;)
# [15:48] <jgraham> I might be. Who knows? Not me! I might have imagined this whole thing!
# [15:48] <zewt> worktime
# [15:49] <EvilMachine> zewt: If it is not predictable what an API does, there is no API. There is only useless chaos.
# [15:49] <jgraham> But in either case your ideas don't really fit in with the reality I percieve
# [15:50] <EvilMachine> In simple plain words that hit the core of the problem: It seems I cannot know, what Document.someFunction() does, one hour from now. I simply can’t. Which means I can’t use it. Which means the thing is dead. (Yes, please correct me because I hope I’m horribly horribly wrong. :)
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# [15:51] <EvilMachine> (Or what <sometag someattribute="somevalue"/> does in one hour.)
# [15:51] <EvilMachine> How could I possibly program code that way?
# [15:52] <Ms2ger> Take <div></div>
# [15:52] <Ms2ger> Do you know what it does?
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# [15:54] <EvilMachine> Ms2ger: Trick question. Tags don’t do stuff. They define/markup/represent stuff. And: Bad example, since it’s a generic block element.
# [15:54] <EvilMachine> ^^
# [15:54] <Ms2ger> "(Or what <sometag someattribute="somevalue"/> does in one hour.)"
# [15:54] <jgraham> document.body then
# [15:55] <jgraham> What does that do
# [15:55] <Ms2ger> Bad example, I've got a patch in my tree to change how it works in Gecko
# [15:55] <jgraham> ?
# [15:55] <EvilMachine> Let’s use the <img> element (or any other one with semantic meaning).
# [15:55] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I bet your patch doesn't make it a bad example
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# [15:55] <Ms2ger> :)
# [15:55] <jgraham> I bet it makes it a good example in fact
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# [15:56] <EvilMachine> jgraham: Are you two in love? :D
# [15:56] <jgraham> Unless you change document.body to, say, make the computer emit a high pitched squeek that attracts dogs
# [15:56] <Ms2ger> So, tell me, what does <img src=foo.png> do?
# [15:56] <Ms2ger> jgraham, bingo!
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# [15:57] <jgraham> EvilMachine: Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you believe that document.body returns the body element of the document (where I leave "the" to be defined)
# [15:58] <jgraham> And a crazy spec author decides that document.body should, when accessed, cause the computer to attract local dogs
# [15:58] <jgraham> Because "living spec"
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# [15:58] <EvilMachine> Ms2ger: That’s exactly my point. With a proper standard, I can look up what it does. (Or at least what I can expect it to do. [Or file a bug otherwise]. With a living standard, I have no freaking idea, as in ten seconds it could load the picture from a completely different server and display it upside down.
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# [15:59] <jgraham> And a mysterious UA implementor like Ms2ger actually goes ahead and implements that spec
# [15:59] <webben> EvilMachine: Well the web isn't built that way … so… there is no "proper standard" like that.
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# [15:59] <jgraham> And somehow manages to land the change
# [15:59] <EvilMachine> jgraham: HTML doesn’t do that. CSS’s aural/voice properties can be used to do that dog thing. ^^
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# [16:00] <jgraham> What do you expect to happen next?
# [16:00] <jgraham> (sure HTML does that. bgsound has played sound for decades)
# [16:00] <EvilMachine> webben: That sentence, all by itself, meant absolutely nothing.
# [16:00] * webben shrugs
# [16:01] <EvilMachine> jgraham: Presentational markup is not proper HTML and was a PHB abomination that should never have existed.
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# [16:01] <webben> EvilMachine: Spec compliance isn't a major goal for browser vendors in and of itself. Compatibility with significant deployed content is.
# [16:02] <EvilMachine> So what about my point above: Yes, I do in fact have absolutely no idea what the <img src=foo.png> does, an hour from now. That’s my problem.
# [16:02] <webben> EvilMachine: Specs are useful to browser vendors mainly to avoid the reverse engineering involved in compatibility.
# [16:02] <webben> EvilMachine: Actually induction gives you a very sound guide to what it will do.
# [16:02] <jgraham> EvilMachine: Sigh. Are you trolling?
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# [16:03] <EvilMachine> webben: That *couldn’t* be more ass-backwards, since “deployed” content *is* based on specs.
# [16:03] <EvilMachine> jgraham: No? Are you?
# [16:04] <webben> EvilMachine: Very little deployed content is written to spec.
# [16:04] <gsnedders> Most deployed content is written to "well, this works in IE and Chrome".
# [16:04] <EvilMachine> I know I‘ve apparently hit a wound here. I really am that unsure regarding knowing what things do though. :/
# [16:04] <webben> EvilMachine: Anyway, regardless of how "backwards" you think it is, it's clearly the case that you have good reason <img src=foo.png"> will work much the same an hour from now as before.
# [16:06] <webben> *good reason to think
# [16:06] <EvilMachine> webben: And why is it? Because it *can*. Which is exactly because browser makers allowed the horrible mess through instead of throwing an error on detectable misusage or let the site maker suffer the consequences on non-detectable ones, like with every other compiler/interpreter on the planet.
# [16:06] <jgraham> EvilMachine: So since apparently the "follow along at home" approach isn't working:
# [16:06] <jgraham> The real forces that act on the web are not standards
# [16:07] <jgraham> They are market pressures, and the need to keep functioning with deployed content
# [16:07] <gsnedders> EvilMachine: Whether or not that should've been done 20 years ago is irrelevant — the market won't allow it now.
# [16:07] <EvilMachine> webben: Actually, the point of the „living standard” is apparently exactly that I don’t have good reason to expect that.
# [16:07] <webben> EvilMachine: Again, because the major driver is allowing users to access deployed content.
# [16:07] <jgraham> If someone arbitarily started changing the way things work sites would break
# [16:07] <SteveF> EvilMachine: note if you use the W3C HTML validation service http://validator.w3.org/ to check your code, then the HTML 5.1 Nightly http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/Overview.html contains the corresponding rule set
# [16:08] <jgraham> Vendors spend a lot of time and effort making sure not to change things in ways that would break the web
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# [16:08] <jgraham> Writing things down in specs is part of that effort
# [16:08] <jgraham> So, to a certain extent you have the causality backwards
# [16:09] <jgraham> Specs aren't a tool for dictating what happens
# [16:09] <EvilMachine> jgraham: “market pressures“… Yeah, I noticed: The dumbest and loudest users are always the ones everything is adapted to. End result: iOS, MS Clippy, and other abominations of induced stupidity. But let’s not go there, the channel is already up in arms about my apparent heresy. ;)
# [16:10] <jgraham> EvilMachine: You're not being heretical. But you aren't being very receptive to what you could be learning either
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# [16:10] <gsnedders> EvilMachine: The problem with making anything stricter is that a user can use browser version x (which isn't strict) or browser version x+1 (which is strict). If a website the user relies on only works in version x, are they going to upgrade to x+1?
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# [16:12] <EvilMachine> I’ll quiet down a bit now, since I see that we get nowhere. Instead of an answer to that problem, I only get empty phrases based on belief, emotional reactions (as if people would link their pride with this and hence I had attacked them personally), and “Are you trolling?” questions. I give up. But I expected more from you guys. :(
# [16:13] <zewt> troll score: 1/10
# [16:13] <EvilMachine> Case in point: ↑
# [16:13] * EvilMachine mutes himself.
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# [16:15] <gsnedders> EvilMachine: There's a fair bit of real data behind things like the above — it's just mostly held internally to the companies that collected it
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# [16:39] <EvilMachine> Okay. It’s decided.
# [16:39] <MikeSmith> EvilMachine: I'd recommend using http://validator.w3.org/nu/ directly instead of http://validator.w3.org/
# [16:39] <EvilMachine> After 15 years developing web applications (for market leaders among others), I will change businesses. Maybe Haskell. Maybe Android, if that isn’t also a “living mess”.
# [16:40] <EvilMachine> The WhatWG mindset is certifiably insane. It seems you cannot even comprehend the problem with your approach. Like it’s a mental blind spot/taboo and every question about it gets avoided like it was never said because it *must be repressed, or we all couldn’t accept ourselves anymore and would have to hate ourselves*. In this super-defensive emotion-based way that quickly gets to personal attacks. As if you had built yo
# [16:40] <EvilMachine> ur whole model of reality and self-acceptance on it. Also you always seem to assume binary black and white scenarios. If I think your approach is bad, you automatically assume I “side” with “the other” or “the opposing” approach, and strongly so, like small children do. In all this, you behave extremely similar to the stereotypical American.
# [16:40] <MikeSmith> EvilMachine: for validation that SteveF mentioned
# [16:40] <EvilMachine> If kids failed as math and physics, you guys would *change math and physics* to redefine their errors as “correct”. Motto: HTML(2+2=5). Besides: Chrome/Firefox/etc are textbook examples of the Inner Platform Anti-Pattern: Like Emacs, they are their own OSes now. If only the built-in browsers weren’t so shitty. ;) In this, you are very similar to the iOS/Ubuntu/Firefox/MSClippy/Win8 crowd of obsessive dumbward-spiralin
# [16:40] <EvilMachine> g. (Mostly caused by lack of spine / individuality.)
# [16:40] <EvilMachine> RIP WWW. It was nice while XHTML lasted.
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# [16:42] <SteveF> MIkeSmith: though they were the same for HTML5, what differences are there?
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# [16:42] <SteveF> thought
# [16:42] <MikeSmith> SteveF: teh UI and options
# [16:43] <MikeSmith> pluse the http://validator.w3.org/ does some preprocessing and postprocessing and introduces bugs when it does
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# [16:43] <MikeSmith> .win 12
# [16:43] <SteveF> MikeSmoth: FYI in all TPG technical reports we point to http://validator.w3.org/nu/
# [16:43] <MikeSmith> cool
# [16:44] <SteveF> that should have been Mike's moth
# [16:44] <SteveF> its my pet name for the validator
# [16:47] <Ms2ger> I wonder if EvilMachine will find Haskell static enough for his liking
# [16:48] <jgraham> Don't tell him that sometimes they update stuff
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# [16:48] <jgraham> And not everything is rigourously specced
# [16:48] <jgraham> Using a pure waterfall model
# [16:49] * Ms2ger ponders the physics comparison
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# [16:49] <Ms2ger> If he'd been Einstein, would he have eliminated the relativistic effects from the universe rather than changing the textbooks?
# [16:50] <dekiss> someone called for me?
# [16:50] <dekiss> :D
# [16:50] <dekiss> I think if Nikola TEsla didn't existed we woudln't had html5 and html at all
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# [16:50] <dekiss> we woudlnt even had comptuers not anything similar.. aalso lights etc
# [16:50] <Ms2ger> No, I don't think anybody called, why?
# [16:50] <dekiss> HAHAHA
# [16:51] <dekiss> ok im off :D
# [16:51] <Ms2ger> See you :)
# [16:51] <dekiss> :))
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# [16:53] <MikeSmith> jgraham: btw, about the TTW Forward event in Tokyo, the tentative plan is to focus on writing tests for the input element and the "Dates and Times" section, because that's what http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit.html indicates we need tests for. But I wanted to ask if you had other suggestions for what to focus on.
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# [16:54] <MikeSmith> I think there's probably not enough granularity in that http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit.html list
# [16:54] <Ms2ger> I think we established that that page is a lie
# [16:55] <MikeSmith> OK, well then I'd really like to try to identify a couple other sections of the spec that the attendees coudl help write tests for
# [16:55] <MikeSmith> anything come to mind?
# [16:57] * Ms2ger thinks
# [16:57] <jgraham> Well the base url section just got fixed so it should be correct. If there's anyone you take a dislike to, get them to test that :)
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# [16:58] <SteveF> MikeSmith: worth a read http://accessibility.oit.ncsu.edu/blog/2013/05/31/screen-readers-at-a-crossroads/
# [16:58] <MikeSmith> too bad Nikola TEsla's not alive to write tests for us, similar to the way he created light and computing
# [16:58] <MikeSmith> SteveF: will take a look
# [16:59] <MikeSmith> jgraham: OK
# [16:59] <Ms2ger> form's named item can always use some more tests
# [16:59] <Ms2ger> Interaction with tables / <input> and <img> with the same name / past names map
# [17:00] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: which section of the spec is form's named item?
# [17:00] <dekiss> MikeSmith wqhat kind of tests
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# [17:00] <Ms2ger> The form element
# [17:00] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: OK
# [17:00] * Ms2ger wonders if anybody implemented cssElementMap
# [17:01] <jgraham> It's hard to pick things
# [17:01] <MikeSmith> dekiss: testing to see if we can send electric power through the air for free
# [17:01] <dekiss> hah
# [17:01] <Ms2ger> Document.currentScript? Is that implemented?
# [17:01] <dekiss> write element that sends 1kw when you click it!
# [17:01] <jgraham> I mean I know there are lots of untested things
# [17:01] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I don't even knwo what that is
# [17:01] <Ms2ger> Rendering could use a bunch
# [17:01] <dekiss> document.sendElectricityTo("MikeSmith");
# [17:02] <jgraham> Yeah, rendering is a good idea
# [17:02] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, me neither, I was just looking through the spec :)
# [17:02] <MikeSmith> ah Rendering yeah
# [17:02] <jgraham> Probably all the stuff in Obsolete features :)
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# [17:03] <dekiss> Ms2ger why you work in whatwg?
# [17:03] <dekiss> I mean how you find time you have lot free time?
# [17:03] <Ms2ger> Obsolete features is mostly reflection, which is covered by Aryeh's tests
# [17:03] <dekiss> goof job yo udoing btw
# [17:03] <Ms2ger> And document.all, which I don't want tests for
# [17:03] <jgraham> Ms2ger: <applet> and <marquee>
# [17:03] <Ms2ger> Mm
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# [17:03] <Ms2ger> Also not for people you like
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# [17:04] <Ms2ger> dekiss, I'm studying, so I still have some free time
# [17:04] <jgraham> (also frames, but that's the general "document loading and navigation" stuff)
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# [17:05] <Ms2ger> Yeah, tests for <frame> would be nice
# [17:05] <Ms2ger> We had some code coverage that showed that most lines of that code was hit about 4 times
# [17:06] <Ms2ger> All the new stuff in canvas, I guess
# [17:06] <MikeSmith> hard to motivate people to write tests for frames proabbly
# [17:06] <Ms2ger> Fair :)
# [17:06] <MikeSmith> canvas tests would be fun though
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# [17:06] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Threaten them with document.sendElectricityTo(victim)
# [17:06] <Ms2ger> Is anything about http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#wai-aria testable?
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# [17:07] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I think not
# [17:07] <jgraham> I think it is
# [17:07] <jgraham> But it's essentially aria tests
# [17:07] <MikeSmith> really?
# [17:08] <MikeSmith> not testable cross-browser in my experience
# [17:08] <jgraham> Well I guess if aria doesn't actually have any requirements for UAs
# [17:08] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
# [17:08] <jgraham> Makes the sentence "User agents are required to implement ARIA semantics on all HTML elements, as defined in the ARIA specifications." a bit meaningless
# [17:08] <Ms2ger> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7868&to=7869
# [17:08] <MikeSmith> I meant the part about what the UA has to expose to platform accessiblity APIs
# [17:09] <dekiss> ok
# [17:09] <Ms2ger> audio/video/track could use a lot of tests, of course
# [17:09] <jgraham> zcorpan wrote quite some tests for parts of that
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# [17:09] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I guess the meaning there comes from what the UA exposes to the platform
# [17:09] <jgraham> So it won't be easy to dive in and hiy stuff that isn't already done
# [17:10] <Ms2ger> Mm
# [17:10] <Ms2ger> Is that in the repo?
# [17:10] <MikeSmith> track is getting implemented more widely now
# [17:10] <MikeSmith> I remember seeing some stuff landing in Mozilla
# [17:11] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [17:11] <Ms2ger> From Seneca students, don't think there was a lot of tests to them
# [17:11] <MikeSmith> those would be funnish tests to write
# [17:11] <MikeSmith> relatively
# [17:12] <Ms2ger> HTMLTableElement things, except the sorting stuff, perhaps
# [17:12] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't know where that is
# [17:12] <Ms2ger> Somewhere in Canada
# [17:12] <jgraham> I'm relatively sure we released it
# [17:12] <Ms2ger> Oh
# [17:12] <jgraham> not the students :)
# [17:12] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [17:13] <Ms2ger> Maybe in a PR?
# [17:13] <jgraham> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/media
# [17:13] <Ms2ger> Oh, not even that
# [17:14] <Ms2ger> Sounds like someone at Opera should create PRs
# [17:14] <jgraham> Yeah
# [17:14] <jgraham> I think it was matching the new structure that was hard
# [17:14] <Ms2ger> Drag and drop sounds horrible to automate tests for... *skip*
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# [17:15] <Ms2ger> WebSockets?
# [17:15] <jgraham> I'm sure that there were more media tests than that
# [17:17] <jgraham> We also released a bunch of dnd tests https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/old-tests/submission/Opera/dnd
# [17:17] <jgraham> But yes, automation is a pain
# [17:17] <dekiss> people that work in whatwg get any money from any donation or something?
# [17:17] <Ms2ger> A lot of people here work for browser vendors
# [17:17] <jgraham> Kind of like donation, but the more regular kind that involves a contract and an employer
# [17:18] <Ms2ger> bz suggested box-sizing
# [17:18] <dekiss> hm
# [17:18] <Ms2ger> And that would be really nice, because we're blocking unprefixing on that
# [17:19] <dekiss> guys that make firefox get any money?
# [17:19] <dekiss> mozilla organization is non profit right? it takes donations or?
# [17:20] <Ms2ger> Mozilla Corporation employs several hundred people nowadays
# [17:20] <kbrosnan> we can discuss this on #firefox if you want, it is offtopic for this channel
# [17:20] <Ms2ger> Historically most of the income was from a deal with Google to make it the default search engine, dunno if that's still true
# [17:22] <Ms2ger> + named getter on Document
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# [17:24] <dekiss> Ms2ger but mozilla organization makes firefox and it is non profitable org
# [17:24] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I guess preferably stuff with a good spec ...
# [17:24] <dekiss> I think mozilla sponsors them
# [17:24] <dekiss> ok sry for off topic chat
# [17:24] <dekiss> Ms2ger yeah I guess :)
# [17:25] <dekiss> that for Google dewfault search eng
# [17:25] <jgraham> Offtopic for this channel? Only if it requires a sense of logic.
# [17:25] <dekiss> I am not sure how MOzilla foundation get money from Google
# [17:25] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah
# [17:26] <dekiss> Firefox maka mozilla organization which is non profit?
# [17:26] <Ms2ger> dekiss, http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/15/mozilla-releases-annual-report-for-2011-revenue-up-33-to-163m-majority-from-google/
# [17:26] <dekiss> ok thanks
# [17:27] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, so, named getters might not be optimal, then...
# [17:27] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, but box-sizing would be nice if anyone is interested in CSS
# [17:27] <dekiss> hmm I thought mozilla foundation makes firefox and I though is non profit org
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ok
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# [18:07] <SteveF> dekiss: you can still generate revenue and be a non profit organization. Non profit means money made is not for the benefit of shareholders but is ploughed back into organization no?
# [18:08] * GPHemsley wonders why he bothered to read the scrollback
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# [18:10] <dekiss> hm
# [18:10] <dekiss> but I cant take money
# [18:10] <dekiss> liek profit
# [18:11] <SteveF> dekiss: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization "is an organization that uses surplus revenues to achieve its goals rather than distributing them as profit or dividends."
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# [18:14] <dekiss> yeah
# [18:14] <dekiss> people that work in org cant take money for the job
# [18:14] <dekiss> they have to be volunteers
# [18:14] <dekiss> that is non profit organization
# [18:14] <dekiss> its not something like company with shares
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# [18:15] <Ms2ger> Hardly
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# [18:15] <dekiss> or no?
# [18:15] <dekiss> im not sure
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# [18:16] <Ms2ger> No, a non-profit can have paid employees
# [18:16] <dekiss> than it can act as a company
# [18:16] <dekiss> making profits and sharing profits like wages
# [18:16] <dekiss> to employees?
# [18:16] <dekiss> I think there is no strict line
# [18:16] <dekiss> but I guess tehre is border max wage eomployee can take and so
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# [18:18] <Ms2ger> No idea about the specific laws
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# [18:20] <dekiss> yeah i think they differ inndifferent coutries too
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# [18:24] <SteveF> many non profits have paid employees ther is no problem with that
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# [18:38] <GPHemsley> Feedback welcome: http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#parse-a-mime-type
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# [19:48] <TabAtkins> GPHemsley: Is it even possible for a mimetype to be non-ASCII?
# [19:49] <TabAtkins> If not, then aside from invalid overlong forms, ASCII and uft-8 are obviously identical.
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# [19:54] <JonathanNeal> hello
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# [20:05] <gavinc> dekiss: Non-profits can't have PROFIT or shares, or equity. Wages are not equity.
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# [20:06] <Hixie> so... how do I unambiguously refer to a JS Object, the kind of thing you get from {} literals, as opposed to JS Arrays, RegExps, Strings, host objects, and so forth?
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# [20:07] <Hixie> right now i say "If input is an Object object"; is that ambiguous?
# [20:08] <Ms2ger> Why?
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# [20:08] <TabAtkins> All of those things are valid Objects. I echo Ms2ger in asking why you think you need to be that specific.
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# [20:11] <Hixie> it's for the structured clone algorithm
# [20:11] <Hixie> e.g. i want to clone |{ }| but not |function () { }|
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# [20:12] <TabAtkins> You still don't want literal things of the Object class, I wouldn't think. Subclassing Object is perfectly valid.
# [20:12] <TabAtkins> You should exclude things you dont' want instead.
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# [20:13] <gavinc> Um, that's going to be hard isn't it? as Object is a kind of function yes?
# [20:13] <Hixie> there's a potentially infinite list of things i want to exlude
# [20:13] <Hixie> e.g. all the host objects
# [20:13] <Hixie> all the magical objects future JS versions introduce
# [20:14] <Hixie> gavinc: well it's done, right now, and shipped, as far as i can tell, i'm just trying to clean up the wording :-)
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# [20:17] <TabAtkins> gavinc: No, you're confusing objects with their constructor functions.
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# [20:17] <gavinc> TabAtkins: Ah, yes I am.
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> Hixie: So do that - exclude all host objects and anything with a predefined JS class besides Object in its prototype chain.
# [20:19] <Hixie> what's a predefined JS class? That sounds like what I want
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# [20:19] <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/infrastructure.html#safe-passing-of-structured-data ... that seems reasonably easy to follow today?
# [20:19] <gavinc> "If input is another native object type (e.g. Error, Function)"
# [20:19] <Hixie> lordy, don't rely on the w3 copy :-)
# [20:19] <gavinc> "If input is a host object (e.g. a DOM node)"
# [20:20] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/html#safe-passing-of-structured-data
# [20:20] <Hixie> the specific text i'm asking about is "If input is an Object object"
# [20:23] <JonathanNeal> instance of?
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# [20:25] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: We're telling him he doesn't want to test for that. Also, everything is instanceof Object unless you've set prototype to null.
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# [20:26] * Ms2ger wonders why TC39 hasn't tried to take over structured clone yet
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# [20:31] <gavinc> Hrm, perhaps that is really just the else of that long if?
# [20:31] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: I thought he was checking for a particular kind of Object, just regular old Object like {} ?
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# [20:33] <Ms2ger> That doesn't really make sense from an OOP perspective, does it?
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# [20:33] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Yes, but that's not a good thing. I can make an object-with-defaults, for example, which is nothing more than a {}, but with an object filled with defaults in its prototype.
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# [20:33] <JonathanNeal> Okay, cause there are some tricks to getting the "class".
# [20:33] <JonathanNeal> Ben Alman wrote one https://github.com/cowboy/javascript-getclass/blob/master/dist/ba-getclass.js
# [20:34] <JonathanNeal> I'm sorry if that doesn't help.
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# [20:41] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins: http://whatwg.gphemsley.org/tests/mimesniff/sniffing.php?ct=text/pl%C3%A1in;charset=ISO-8859-5
# [20:44] * GPHemsley finds it interesting that many of the people requesting wiki accounts to add meta extensions are library and information science people
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# [21:07] <wycats__> Ms2ger: do you want us to?
# [21:07] <wycats__> I think we would like to :p
# [21:07] <Ms2ger> I'm not surprised you'd like to :)
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# [21:07] <wycats__> Ms2ger: the current system isn't hookable, and we can fix that in ES
# [21:08] <wycats__> and it would need to interact with proxies, etc.
# [21:08] <Ms2ger> I don't know what I'd want, fwiw
# [21:08] <wycats__> Ms2ger: I personally see TC39 as just another W3C working group
# [21:08] <Ms2ger> Oh
# [21:08] <wycats__> sort of similar relationship-wise to WHATWG
# [21:08] <Ms2ger> Then keep it in the WHATWG spec
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# [21:09] <wycats__> O_O
# [21:09] <wycats__> Ms2ger: Did I touch a third rail?
# [21:09] <Ms2ger> You may find I have little love for the W3C :)
# [21:10] <wycats__> Ms2ger: nor I
# [21:10] <wycats__> Ms2ger: I'm a reformer, mmmkay?
# [21:10] <Ms2ger> Good luck with that :)
# [21:10] * wycats__ is now known as wycats
# [21:10] <wycats> it's going well
# [21:11] <wycats> fwiw: many members of TAG believe in forkable licensing
# [21:11] <wycats> it's a matter of time imho
# [21:11] <wycats> we can call TC39 a WHATWG "WG" :P
# [21:12] <wycats> we're all working on the platform, right?
# [21:12] <Ms2ger> Well, if you guys are getting closer...
# [21:12] <wycats> say more
# [21:12] <Ms2ger> We've got a shared test repo that would be marvelous for y'all :)
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# [21:12] <wycats> seems good
# [21:13] <wycats> I guess I miss the war-wound era
# [21:13] <wycats> missed*
# [21:13] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests, all JS tests welcome ;)
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# [21:14] <wycats> Ms2ger: if we put stuff in there, do they get trapped in a non-forkable-IP trap?
# [21:15] <wycats> I will raise the idea of putting ES stuff in there
# [21:15] <Ms2ger> No, 3-clause BSD
# [21:15] <wycats> we have a process implementors are using already
# [21:15] <wycats> wouldn't want to screw them
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# [21:15] <wycats> next meeting
# [21:15] <wycats> done
# [21:15] <Ms2ger> \o/
# [21:17] * GPHemsley wonders what a frood is
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# [21:17] <hober> GPHemsley: they're usually pretty hoopy
# [21:17] <Ms2ger> A cool dude
# [21:17] <Ms2ger> But clearly hober's is better at h2g2 quotes
# [21:17] <GPHemsley> so then what is a "cool frood"?
# [21:18] <Ms2ger> A guy who knows where his towel is
# [21:19] <GPHemsley> "It is maintained by the HTML Test Suite Task Force, which for all that it has "Task Force" in its name is really a bunch of <guys who know where their towels are>."
# [21:19] <GPHemsley> Got it.
# [21:20] <Ms2ger> And darobin
# [21:20] <GPHemsley> heh
# [21:21] * GPHemsley wonders how many is in a bunch.
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# [21:23] <Ms2ger> A half dozen?
# [21:23] <GPHemsley> Oh, come on. I set that one up for you.
# [21:24] <Ms2ger> Uh, 42?
# [21:24] <GPHemsley> \o/
# [21:24] <Ms2ger> It's been a while since I read it
# [21:25] <GPHemsley> yeah, me too
# [21:26] * jgraham notes that "many mambers of the TAG like X" doesn't really mean anything about the status of X at the W3C
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# [21:26] <hober> yeah
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# [21:27] <wycats> jgraham: accurate
# [21:27] <wycats> it's a start
# [21:27] <hober> though it's getting better, the tag has historically only been tangentially related to the actual work on the platform
# [21:27] <wycats> hober: I do not believe that's accurate anymore
# [21:27] <wycats> certainly not this meeting
# [21:28] <jgraham> Actual work on the platform is also only tangentially related to the status of X at the W3C
# [21:28] <wycats> we had a nice chat with Olivier about Web Audio
# [21:28] <jgraham> Or at least s/tangentially/indirectly/
# [21:28] <wycats> kicked off http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0812.html
# [21:29] <wycats> a bunch of stuff
# [21:29] <wycats> JSIDL
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# [21:29] <wycats> http://w3ctag.github.io/jsidl/jsidl.html
# [21:29] <wycats> I guess read the minutes but a large % of time was spent on platform-specific stuff
# [21:29] <wycats> Alex, Anne, Marcos and I are actively working on platform stuff
# [21:30] <wycats> it's almost like we were able to change the composition of the TAG by changing the composition of the TAG ;)
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# [21:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: re the questions i was asking earlier, thanks for the class thing. it led me to (i think) the right parts of the right specs. you can see the resulting patches in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21658
# [21:37] <Hixie> Ms2ger: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21590
# [21:37] * Ms2ger jumps
# [21:37] <Hixie> :_D
# [21:38] <Ms2ger> Actually, webidl defines a Function
# [21:38] * Ms2ger closes that bug
# [21:38] <Hixie> swee-eeet
# [21:38] <Hixie> mission. accomplished.
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# [21:39] <Hixie> any bikeshed painters interested in a naming frenzy? go crazy on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21572
# [21:39] <TabAtkins> Hixie: In http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7875&to=7876, you meant "Object" there at the very end.
# [21:39] <Hixie> woops
# [21:39] <Hixie> yes, thanks. good catch.
# [21:40] <TabAtkins> I can stand behind "child-free elements". The fact that text is a Node and thus a child is not usually relevant.
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# [21:41] <jgraham> child-free sounds like it means "void"
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# [21:41] <jgraham> in the jargon sense
# [21:42] <TabAtkins> But it's not void, so maybe that's okay?
# [21:43] <Hixie> i'm a bit reluctant to use terms that are vaguely right but not technically right
# [21:43] <Hixie> in a spec, people tend to over-read everything already
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# [21:44] <Hixie> we'd end up with questions about what it means to have a non-child Text node child, etc
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# [21:50] <hober> "text-only elements"?
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# [22:01] <tantek> hober, is that like "text-only email"?
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# [22:12] <Hixie> hober: that's confusing with CDATA
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# [22:35] <GPHemsley> plaintext element?
# [22:35] <GPHemsley> (what's the difference between CDATA and RCDATA?)
# [22:35] <Hixie> also confusing with CDATA
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# [22:35] <Hixie> RCDATA elements can have text and character references
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# [22:35] <Hixie> CDATA can only hae text
# [22:36] <Hixie> CDATA elements are thus called "Raw text" elements
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# [22:37] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21572 (already addresses why "normal text", "cooked text", "text", and "no-child" are probably less good than just RCDATA)
# [22:37] <GPHemsley> escaped text?
# [22:37] <GPHemsley> escaped raw text?
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# [22:37] <Hixie> escaped implies that entities _are_ used
# [22:37] <GPHemsley> (maybe "raw text" should be renamed external "raw text" or something?)
# [22:37] <GPHemsley> err, "external raw text"
# [22:37] <Hixie> (and "potentially escaped text elements" is too long!)
# [22:37] <Hixie> "external" how?
# [22:38] <GPHemsley> well, according to the definition, they're only used when allowing another language in HTML
# [22:38] <GPHemsley> maybe "foreign raw element"?
# [22:38] <GPHemsley> maybe "foreign raw text element"?
# [22:39] <GPHemsley> (i.e. <script> and <style>)
# [22:39] <Hixie> how are they any more foreign than onclick="" and style="" attributes?
# [22:39] <GPHemsley> they're foreign in the sense that they switch langauges
# [22:39] <GPHemsley> languages
# [22:39] <GPHemsley> I'm just brainstorming here
# [22:40] <GPHemsley> but presumably @onclick and @style would be similar
# [22:40] <Hixie> they allow character references
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# [22:40] <GPHemsley> right
# [22:41] <GPHemsley> so the difference is that the attributes are encoded using HTML
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# [22:41] <GPHemsley> whereas the elements aren't
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# [22:41] <GPHemsley> are @onclick and @style considered RCDATA?
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# [22:43] <GPHemsley> maybe "raw text elements" vs. "escapabale raw text elements"?
# [22:43] <Hixie> attributes are RCDATA in the old SGML world, iirc
# [22:43] <Hixie> they're nothing special in html
# [22:44] <GPHemsley> define "nothing special"
# [22:44] <GPHemsley> there lacks a distinction?
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# [22:44] <Hixie> right
# [22:44] <GPHemsley> is there a reason? or was there a lack of a reason?
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# [22:45] <Hixie> reason for what?
# [22:45] <a-ja> hmm
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# [22:45] <a-ja> RIP Camino
# [22:45] <GPHemsley> what I mean is, could attributes be re-called whatever the new name for RCDATA is without changing anything?
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# [22:46] <Hixie> there's no need for a name for attributes
# [22:46] <Hixie> since we treat them all the same now
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# [22:47] <GPHemsley> wait... were different attributes treated differently at one point?
# [22:47] <Hixie> yes sgml, yes
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# [22:47] <GPHemsley> so why not have a single term describe all attributes plus <title> and <textarea>?
# [22:48] <Hixie> well we have no use for a term for attributes
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# [22:48] <Hixie> but the problem would be having a term for <style> that implies something special that style="" is implied not to have
# [22:48] <GPHemsley> we just found a use: to indicate to people that they share restrictions
# [22:48] <Hixie> attributes and <title> aren't treated the same
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# [22:49] <GPHemsley> what do you mean by "treated"?
# [22:49] <Hixie> parsed
# [22:49] <Hixie> share similar restrictions
# [22:49] <GPHemsley> how the content is written and how the content is interpreted are two different things, are they not?
# [22:49] <Hixie> it doesn't seem useful to related them to each other
# [22:50] <Hixie> they are both different
# [22:50] <GPHemsley> what can <title> and <textarea> do that attributes can't, or vice versa?
# [22:50] <dekiss> hm
# [22:51] <dekiss> real Hixie? :)
# [22:51] <Hixie> GPHemsley: it's kinda subtle, see the spec :-)
# [22:51] <GPHemsley> Hixie: :P
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# [22:51] <dekiss> if yes just to say Hi and thanks for doing good job :)
# [22:51] <Hixie> dekiss: there's a fake one? :-) Hi! Thanks.
# [22:51] <dekiss> haha
# [22:51] <dekiss> nice I didn't expect to see you here honestly nice !
# [22:51] <Hixie> this is where i hide
# [22:52] <dekiss> :)
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# [22:52] <GPHemsley> alright, well anyway
# [22:53] <GPHemsley> Hixie: was there something wrong with "escapable raw text"?
# [22:53] <GPHemsley> +elements
# [22:53] <dekiss> man have you met Steve Jobs ?
# [22:53] <dekiss> sry for asking this but Inever spoke to person who knew him
# [22:54] <TabAtkins> Talk to anyone from Apple!
# [22:54] <dekiss> :)
# [22:54] <dekiss> #apple?
# [22:54] <Hixie> GPHemsley: that could work
# [22:54] <Hixie> GPHemsley: let me add it to the bug
# [22:54] <GPHemsley> k
# [22:54] <Hixie> dekiss: nope, never met him.
# [22:54] <dekiss> ok
# [22:54] <dekiss> man your name is on html standard :) omg yo uare ceo of whatwg^^
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# [22:55] <Hixie> Conned Editing Officer?
# [22:55] <GPHemsley> ^_^
# [22:55] <Hixie> the guy tricked into writing the spec? :-)
# [22:55] <dekiss> you were president
# [22:55] <dekiss> :D
# [22:55] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [22:56] <dekiss> no, don't look it that way!
# [22:56] <Hixie> we have a bunch of editors now actually, not just me
# [22:56] <Hixie> see spec.whatwg.org for a list of specs
# [22:56] <dekiss> yeah i saw
# [22:56] <dekiss> haha
# [22:57] <dekiss> this is funny but I must tel lyou :)
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# [22:57] <dekiss> ok so I hold some private classes about web design and I teach kids about you :)))))
# [22:57] <dekiss> hahah
# [22:57] <dekiss> omg
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# [22:57] <Hixie> all good i hope :-|
# [22:57] <dekiss> haha yep :)
# [22:57] * GPHemsley wonders if there's a whatwgmemes he can go post to
# [22:58] <Hixie> GPHemsley: we use w3cmemes
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# [22:58] <GPHemsley> nah, not the same :P
# [22:59] <dekiss> Hixie you met Timothy Berners-Lee?
# [22:59] <dekiss> have yo useen him in live
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# [23:00] <Hixie> yes, most people here have probably met tim at some time or other
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# [23:01] <dekiss> nice
# [23:01] <GPHemsley> ;_;
# [23:02] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee
# [23:02] <dekiss> sry I cant believe its really you man :D
# [23:02] <dekiss> pls reply me from your mail and I will belive pls pls :D
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# [23:02] <GPHemsley> dekiss: Enough already
# [23:03] <pdr> Hixie, sign my chest!
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# [23:04] <TabAtkins> dekiss: Hixie, he's just this guy, you know? A bunch of us either work for the browser companies or are webdevs who do something with browser dev as well.
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# [23:05] <Hixie> ok i give up. been trying to do this for like 30 minutes but i'm just a crap artist.
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# [23:05] <Hixie> can someone make me a strip of 64x64 cells of a walking stick figure?
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# [23:05] <GPHemsley> interesting... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-29/u-s-to-ease-iran-sanctions-on-laptops-mobile-phones.html
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# [23:11] <TabAtkins> Hixie: ...for what?
# [23:12] <Hixie> canvas example
# [23:12] <Hixie> but actually i found some online
# [23:12] <Hixie> under CC license
# [23:12] * dkiss is now known as dekiss
# [23:13] <dekiss> Hixie is there future for webgl?
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# [23:13] <Hixie> not my area of expertise, but i doubt webgl is going away any time soon
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# [23:14] <dekiss> man
# [23:14] <TabAtkins> Oh man, the molecules really *do* form little hexagons: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/05/atomic-level-images/
# [23:15] <dekiss> if you need some employees pls tell me thanks in advance :)
# [23:15] <Hixie> employees?
# [23:15] <Hixie> for what?
# [23:15] <dekiss> welllllll
# [23:15] <dekiss> anything web related or pc related or science related etc.
# [23:15] <dekiss> I can even clean web dev monitors in google
# [23:15] <Hixie> oh
# [23:15] <dekiss> HAHAHA :D
# [23:15] <dekiss> ^^
# [23:15] <Hixie> i have no hiring authority for anything
# [23:15] <Hixie> so...
# [23:16] <dekiss> ok
# [23:16] <dekiss> nvm
# [23:16] <dekiss> what you work in google man?
# [23:16] <dekiss> if its no secret?
# [23:16] <Hixie> the html spec
# [23:16] <dekiss> Chrome?
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# [23:17] <Hixie> no, http://whatwg.org/html is what i write as my fulltime job
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# [23:17] <dekiss> hm ok
# [23:17] <TabAtkins> dekiss: None of us have any hiring authority. Our companies' job application pages are easy to find.
# [23:18] <Hixie> http://caroll-ann.deviantart.com/art/Bugs-Bunny-Sprites-Sheets-346185418 "This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License"
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# [23:18] <dekiss> Hixie when you put transition on some element and give position fixed and scroll the page the elements leave lines on the webpage its bug
# [23:18] <dekiss> but I think its more css related :)
# [23:18] <dekiss> sec im gona report it
# [23:19] <dekiss> TabAtkins I know man but if you recommend me
# [23:19] <dekiss> ^^
# [23:19] <dekiss> kidding, no way you can recommend someone you just met on net :D
# [23:19] <TabAtkins> I'm not going to recommend a stranger.
# [23:19] <dekiss> haha exactly just joke sec.. brb :)
# [23:23] <dekiss> Hixie honestly w3c adopted html 5 because they wanted or to escape the shame of not sucessfull xhtml 2?
# [23:24] <dekiss> and there was risk that browsers vendors will implement html5 and not xhtml2 and everyone would use html5? :)
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# [23:49] <tantek> well hello 2007 era political discussion
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# Session Close: Sat Jun 01 00:00:00 2013

The end :)