/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-05 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jun 05 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:01] <Hixie_> anyone got IE10? IE9 is acting odd on http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2280
# [00:03] <Hixie_> sicking: mounir pinged you on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20580
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# [00:03] <Philip`> Hixie_: I get "error: Invalid argument. on line 4" in IE10
# [00:04] <Hixie_> well at least the line number makes more sense
# [00:04] <Philip`> following a single "log:"
# [00:04] <Hixie_> IE9 was saying line 128
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# [00:04] <Hixie_> but that still makes no sense
# [00:04] <Hixie_> thanks though!
# [00:04] <Hixie_> anyone understand https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21800 ?
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# [00:08] <TabAtkins> I don't even know what s/b is.
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# [00:10] <Hixie_> the google says maybe "should be"?
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# [00:11] <JonathanNeal> Are <meta> tags liberal?
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# [00:12] <JonathanNeal> Howdy Hixie_, Did you and MikeSmith end up emailing folks about the meta name property?
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# [00:13] <Hixie_> JonathanNeal: it's on my list of things to deal with in 2014 Q1
# [00:13] <Hixie_> then again, it was on my list for 2013 Q1
# [00:14] <annevk> https://twitter.com/antimattur/status/342036107585806336 beautiful
# [00:14] <annevk> oh god, that's an actual quote http://www.altova.com/list/xml-dev/201306/msg1000330505.html
# [00:14] <annevk> lol interwebs
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# [00:19] <Hixie_> he does go on to say "it is virtually forgotten" so it's not clear what he meant...
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# [00:19] <Hixie_> xforms wasn't a thorn in the side, it was the catalyst :-)
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# [00:20] <Hixie_> bbiab.
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# [00:28] <jarek> omg, Boeing is using SVG
# [00:30] <jarek> not the best choice for circuit diagraming
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# [01:31] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21791 stupid browsers :-|
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# [01:44] <dekiss> Hixie_, here
# [01:44] <dekiss> ?
# [01:45] <dekiss> if any html editor here please I have one question thanks
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# [01:50] <rillian> dekiss: don't ask to ask.
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# [01:51] <rillian> it's hard to tell if anyone knows the answer to your question if you don't state it.
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# [03:10] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: I e-mailed the mailing list to invite some feedback but I don't plan on mailing anybody else
# [03:10] <MikeSmith> who do you think we should e-mail>
# [03:10] <MikeSmith> ?
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# [03:15] <JonathanNeal> I dunno. I tweeted it for some feedback.
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# [03:19] <dekiss> rillian, sry now I saw
# [03:19] <dekiss> rillian, who edit html spec?
# [03:19] <dekiss> who is authorized?
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# [03:32] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/TVRaman/status/342047516025552896
# [03:32] <MikeSmith> Xforms in the air today I guess
# [03:33] <MikeSmith> even got Raman tweeting
# [03:33] <MikeSmith> I didn't even know he was twitter
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# [03:37] <dekiss> MikeSmith, you guys get feedback in emails and here and edit hmtl specification based on the feedback?
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# [03:41] <MikeSmith> dekiss: Hixie is the sole editor of the whatwg HTML spec. The W3C publishes a version of the spec also, based mostly only the whatwg spec but with some additions and changes. There are several editors of the W3C HTML spec but probably the most active one is SteveF, who's on this channel often and who focuses on accessibility features.
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# [03:44] <dekiss> nice
# [03:44] <dekiss> I will look for him to ask him if accessibility technology devices can interpret dom and javascript
# [03:46] <MikeSmith> dekiss: the answer is that the DOM and the results of JS operations on the DOM do get exposed to accessibility software
# [03:46] <MikeSmith> though in a somewhat different form
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# [03:47] <dekiss> MikeSmith, thanks I will download and/or buy some devices to check it myself
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# [04:01] <JonathanNeal> Did you guys change the validator to stop allowing <span> from wrapping block content?
# [04:01] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: it doesn't allow it now
# [04:02] <MikeSmith> there's been no change
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# [04:02] <MikeSmith> that causes an error to be reported
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# [04:38] <tantek> JonathanNeal - see, I was pretty sure you couldn't <span><blockquote></blockquote></span>
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# [07:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: are you referencing level 4 of Selectors in HTML because something in the spec specifically requires something in level 4, or rather just because it's the latest?
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# [08:23] <Hixie_> MikeSmith: i believe i'm not referencing the editor's draft, actually
# [08:23] <Hixie_> er
# [08:23] <Hixie_> now
# [08:23] <Hixie_> not not
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# [08:24] <Hixie_> yeah, i'm just referencing the editor's draft
# [08:24] <Hixie_> (closest they have to a "living standard")
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# [08:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: ok
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# [08:50] <Ms2ger> OH: "Good ideas never die ... XForms..."
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# [09:11] <jgraham> Ms2ger: "proves that bad ideas never die, either"?
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# [09:20] <Ms2ger> <SimonSapin> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/34634329920/csswg-resolves-to-use-less-magic
# [09:20] <Ms2ger> <fantasai> dbaron: Could introduce some magic
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# [10:01] <dbaron> it's really not *that* magical
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# [10:13] <jgraham> tobie: Are you going to rename the ttwf-docs repo?
# [10:14] <tobie> yeah, I absolutely should.
# [10:15] <tobie> also the docs suffix is idiotic
# [10:15] <tobie> as we'll have more in there than just docs
# [10:15] <tobie> including the main page, etc.
# [10:15] <tobie> … the events
# [10:16] <tobie> testtwf-website?
# [10:16] <jgraham> WFM
# [10:17] <tobie> deal
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# [11:14] <MikeSmith> tobie: in general I take the "docs" abbreviation to just mean (Web) "documents" and not necessarily documentation
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> e.g., "/www/docs" and such
# [11:14] <tobie> oh, you're old school, man!
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> heh
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> I am that, I guess
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# [11:15] <MikeSmith> anyway, -website is definitely clearer
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# [11:19] <darobin> bah
# [11:19] <darobin> it should be testtwf-var-www-sites
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> heh
# [11:21] <jgraham> Hmm, we would attract more users if we went all OSX. Library-WebServer-Documents-TestTWF ftw
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# [11:40] <MikeSmith> good brainstorming
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# [12:07] <jgraham> lol at "let's proceed only on es-discuss. This is […] not a browser issue"
# [12:08] <jgraham> In other news, skepticism remains about how much TC39 really want to work with the rest of the community.
# [12:10] <darobin> ouch
# [12:10] <Ms2ger> :/
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# [12:38] <annevk> I don't know why he insists on trolling all the time
# [12:38] <annevk> it's annoying
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# [12:46] <Ms2ger> Habit?
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# [12:47] <annevk> You would know
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# [12:53] <Ms2ger> Indeed so
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# [13:01] <hsivonen> annevk: this text misunderstands the meaning of CORS-same-origin, right: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/rev/69dbfb8baca8#l1.18 ?
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# [13:02] <annevk> hsivonen: that reads very weird
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# [13:02] <hsivonen> annevk: that is, the CORS-same-origin concept covers the case where CORS has been used, so the "or use the crossorigin..." bit is confused
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# [13:02] <annevk> hsivonen: yes
# [13:03] <annevk> also, xsl:template o_O
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# [13:13] <hsivonen> annevk: my bank exposed an expired certificate in production this morning and my reaction was "also, ISO-8859-15 o_O"
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# [13:14] <annevk> need a bigger O
# [13:14] <Ms2ger> I wonder if cobol outputs ISO-8859-15
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# [13:22] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: ISO-8859-1 is way too new for Cobol
# [13:22] <hsivonen> argh
# [13:22] <hsivonen> -15
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# [15:12] <annevk> hsivonen: http://i.imgur.com/4J7Il0m.jpg is beautiful
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# [15:16] <zcorpan> annevk: btw philipj suggested maybe Fetch should cover the fetching story that apply to media elements
# [15:17] <annevk> I know there's a sad story for <img> elements. There's one for media elements too?
# [15:17] <zcorpan> what's about <img<?
# [15:17] <annevk> I should write these stories down somewhere so I don't forget about them.
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# [15:18] <zcorpan> well media elements support http range requests
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# [15:18] <annevk> zcorpan: per Document a URL is only fetched once and then simply retrieved from cache, irrespective of HTTP cache headers on the fetch.
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# [15:18] <annevk> I'll be back in 45min, need to ensure I have dry clothes before traveling Friday :)
# [15:19] <Ms2ger> Eh, dry clothes are overrated
# [15:19] <zcorpan> loading an .ogg resource means doing a range request from 0 to infinity, then if the server supports range requests and the ogg resource doesn't have an index, you seek to the end (i.e. abort the first request and do a new request) of the file to find out the duration, then you do a third request from where you left of from the first request
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# [15:20] <zcorpan> and there's a different cache for media resources
# [15:21] <zcorpan> we reverse engineered gecko in this area :-)
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# [15:22] <zcorpan> also, there are unsubmitted tests in this area :-/
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# [15:24] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah, I noticed that the other day when Ms2ger was asking
# [15:25] <jgraham> Making Gecko run tests on their own reverse-engineered behaviour should be reason enough to release them ;)
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# [15:29] <zcorpan> the media cache tests are ugly php hacks
# [15:29] <zcorpan> with state management being text files on the server, iirc
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# [15:29] <jgraham> Nice
# [15:30] <zewt_> zcorpan: seems really wasteful to send a request expecting to abort it, since the server will probably push out a ton of data that would get discarded
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# [15:30] <zewt> surprised it doesn't just leave the first request running, and run a second request at the end in parallel
# [15:30] <zcorpan> zewt: yeah well
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# [15:31] <zewt> the server probably can't tell the difference (it might not even be able to detect the abort until after the second request starts anyway), and it'd be a lot more efficient
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# [15:31] <zcorpan> yeah i've pondered about that as a way to do it as well
# [15:31] <zcorpan> but it was hard to argue that we should spend time implementing such a tweak when there were lots of more important things to implement
# [15:32] <jgraham> I presume a certain amount of real world experience went into this design
# [15:32] <jgraham> Although I might be wrong ofc
# [15:32] <zewt> i'm wary about making that assumption these days :)
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# [15:33] <zcorpan> i don't know if the parallel strategy was considered before things got implemented in gecko and presto
# [15:33] <jgraham> Well it seems kind of obvious
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# [15:34] <jgraham> So I favour the explaination that it was considered and rejected over the explaination that no one even thought of it
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# [15:35] <zcorpan> i thought of it, but not until after we had implemented the aborting strategy
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# [15:36] <zcorpan> maybe the gecko people thought of it too and rejected it because it wouldn't work with some proxies or whatever
# [15:36] <zewt> also means that if the server doesn't support range, you get fewer round-trips (since the main request doesn't have to be a Range and you don't have to redo it if it doesn't work), not that broken servers is a big optimization point
# [15:36] -tomaw- [Global Notice] Hi, yes NickServ, ChanServ etc are gone - we're investigating why right now.
# [15:36] <zewt> (also are)
# [15:37] <zewt> though I guess you want to know that (in the "don't need to read from the end of the file" case) anyway, to know whether to enable seeking
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# [15:37] <zcorpan> zewt: if the server doesn't support range, the first request is carried on as if it wasn't a range request
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# [15:43] <zcorpan> now i don't follow :-)
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# [16:14] <annevk5> jgraham: I'd favour asking
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# [16:17] <jgraham> annevk: Yes, of course, I wouldn't suggest we blindly assume everything must have been done for a good reason. But I also wouldn't go in with the attitude that things that look suboptimal don't have any reasoning behind them.
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# [16:22] <GPHemsley> annevk: So... when do we start on that common definitions spec?
# [16:23] <annevk> GPHemsley: do you have spare time?
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# [16:24] <GPHemsley> ain't that a loaded question
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# [16:25] <Ms2ger> Too much, clearly ;)
# [16:25] <jgraham> You get paid for it in time
# [16:26] <jgraham> Which is, I have been led to believe, money
# [16:26] <GPHemsley> aha
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# [16:30] <annevk> heh
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# [16:34] <annevk> GPHemsley: I'm not sure we're quite there yet. Might need some more incremental evolution first.
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# [16:34] <GPHemsley> incremental evolution where? because we may start to have divergent definitions
# [16:36] <jgraham> Well talking to each other helps with that :)
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# [16:36] <GPHemsley> jgraham: I'm probably more worried about the cases where we don't even realize we're using/defining the same terms.
# [16:36] <jgraham> At some level you always have people not specs
# [16:37] <jgraham> Well if people aren't reading each other's specs, we have a bigger problem
# [16:39] <GPHemsley> Why is that? There are plenty of specs (that annevk writes) that have nothing to do with what I'm doing.
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# [16:40] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Where in the code will I need to look to fix this? https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis/issue/8/should-override
# [16:40] <annevk> GPHemsley: I think as a specification editor it's part of your job to be familiar with a large set of specifications. That's the only way you avoid needlessly introducing new concepts and terminology into the world.
# [16:40] <jgraham> GPHemsley: I didn't say that everyone had to read everyone else's specs. But if you are writing a spec and it isn't being read by anyone that is writing/reading any other specs, that's not good
# [16:40] <jgraham> Also, as annevk says, the reverse is true
# [16:40] <annevk> GPHemsley: It'll also help understand where we might need to abstract or share concepts.
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# [16:41] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, either xref.py or xspecxref.py in anolislib/processes
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# [16:42] <jgraham> tobie: Any chance of giving me whatever the permissions are on testtwf-website so that I can add hooks? (admin?)
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# [16:43] <GPHemsley> annevk: By that logic, then, you should already be familiar with all the stuff I'm doing in mimesniff, right?
# [16:43] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Oh, and I heard there were tests I can run?
# [16:44] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [16:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: I don't think that follows directly from what I said and I haven't checked mimesniff lately
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# [16:45] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, python runtests.py in the top dir
# [16:45] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Ah, k, thanks
# [16:45] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, adding a test for your case when you fix it is appreciated ;)
# [16:46] <GPHemsley> k
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# [16:53] <GPHemsley> argh, I forget how hg works
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# [16:59] <tantek> GPHemsley - that happens to me all the time. I forget how (insert command line tool here) works.
# [16:59] <GPHemsley> heh
# [16:59] <jgraham> Well hg in particular is bad
# [16:59] <GPHemsley> well this is specifically because I've been spending so much time with git lately
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# [17:00] <tantek> So when learning any new one, I end up making "xyz for dummies" wiki pages for each such command line tool, because I can predict fairly accurately that my future self will be a dummy with regards to said xyz command line tool.
# [17:01] <tantek> e.g. for hg, I didn't make this one, but I've contributed to it: http://wiki.csswg.org/tools/hg
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# [17:02] <tantek> you may find it of some use, and feel free to add any problems / questions you encounter
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# [17:05] <Ms2ger> jgraham, it's much better than git, fortunately
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# [17:09] <jgraham> Yes, because applications where the first step in using them is "fiddle about with a configureation file to enable essential features" are so easy to use
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# [17:11] <Ms2ger> jgraham, "I forgot how to set it up" is a lot less of a problem than "I forgot how to use it"
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# [17:13] <jgraham> I rarely know how to use things that I have to Google to even set up correctly.
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# [17:15] <tantek> jgraham - LOL: "fiddle about with a configureation file to enable essential features" are so easy to use
# [17:16] <tantek> yeah, that.
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# [17:19] <jgraham> Although it does look like if you have new enough mercurial, you get histedit with only a config option and not a config option + downloading a random script from the internet
# [17:19] <jgraham> So I guess that's progress
# [17:19] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Are the tests themselves documented? Because I've got one failing without telling me why or what it's for.
# [17:20] <jgraham> Still would be nice if someone would go back in time and convinve the hg people that cheap, temporary, local branches are an essential feature
# [17:20] <jgraham> Unfortunately, they don't believe in editing history\
# [17:21] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, which one fails? They all pass for me
# [17:21] <GPHemsley> toc-basic.src.html
# [17:21] <GPHemsley> apparently x != y
# [17:21] <GPHemsley> but the difference is subtle and hard to see
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# [17:22] <GPHemsley> id=baz? vs id=baz
# [17:22] <Ms2ger> Interesting
# [17:23] <Ms2ger> Ignore it for now and/or file a bug, I guess
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# [17:25] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: How is it that you're not seeing it?
# [17:25] <GPHemsley> (Maybe a different version of html5lib?)
# [17:25] <Ms2ger> Yeah, that's the most likely
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# [17:29] <jgraham> 0.95 vs 1.0b?
# [17:30] <jgraham> Would be interested in knowing if it's that
# [17:30] <Ms2ger> Doesn't seem to make a difference
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# [17:31] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Is there a fake xref file I can use?
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# [17:32] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, I don't think so
# [17:32] <Ms2ger> You'll probably need an .options file too
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# [17:35] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: How do I add the xspecxref process?
# [17:35] <GPHemsley> (to the options)
# [17:35] * Ms2ger reads some code
# [17:35] <GPHemsley> heh
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# [17:36] <Ms2ger> { 'processes': 'xspecxref' }
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# [17:36] <GPHemsley> "TypeError: buildReferences() takes at least 3 arguments (2 given)"
# [17:36] <Ms2ger> Hrm
# [17:37] <Ms2ger> Or ['xspecxref']
# [17:37] <Ms2ger> Yeah, needs to be an array
# [17:37] <GPHemsley> yeah, right, already did that :)
# [17:37] <GPHemsley> the issue may be with not having an xref file
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# [17:38] <Ms2ger> You may need to point at it...
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# [17:39] <Ms2ger> 'xref': 'data' or whatever you called the dir
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# [17:54] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis/pull-request/8/fix-8-should-override/diff
# [17:54] <Ms2ger> Thanks, going to look in a bit
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# [18:41] <jgraham> odinho: I think I suggested the shutdown. I'm only still there to turn out the lights :)
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# [18:45] <nimbu> jgraham: ARE YOU IN OSLO
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# [18:53] <jgraham> nimbu: NO. YOU KNOW THAT THE INTERNET LETS YOU TALK TO PEOPLE A LONG WAY AWAY WITHOUT SHOUTING?
# [18:53] <jgraham> THATS WHY IT IS GOOD
# [18:54] <jgraham> So we can probably talk at a normal volume
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# [19:10] <annevk> BUT THE TUBES
# [19:11] <miketaylr> have to shout over the noise of splits
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# [19:24] <rillian> miketaylr: when you say that, I think you don't appreciate the elegance of minimal spanning trees
# [19:25] <miketaylr> :)
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# [19:47] <JonathanNeal> hello
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# [20:00] <GPHemsley> Feedback welcome: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Contexts
# [20:00] <GPHemsley> especially from Hixie_ (HTML) and annevk (Fetch) ^^
# [20:01] <GPHemsley> and any CSS folks who care to weigh in (TabAtkins, SimonSapin, etc.)
# [20:01] <annevk> GPHemsley: for bonus points, plot that against CSP fetch types
# [20:01] <annevk> GPHemsley: CSS has these img-src, media-src, etc. thingies we need to integrate into the rest of the stack somehow
# [20:01] <annevk> not CSS, CSP
# [20:01] <annevk> grmbl
# [20:02] <GPHemsley> ah, k
# [20:02] <GPHemsley> do you have a link handy/
# [20:02] <GPHemsley> ?
# [20:02] <annevk> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/content-security-policy/raw-file/tip/csp-1.0-specification.html
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# [20:02] <annevk> I think there might be a 1.1 too somewhere
# [20:02] <annevk> it's not very well organized over on w3.org :/
# [20:02] <GPHemsley> MDN says https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/content-security-policy/raw-file/tip/csp-specification.dev.html
# [20:03] <tantek> annevk, perhaps it could be better organized on w3.org/wiki ;)
# [20:03] <annevk> GPHemsley: nice
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# [20:05] <GPHemsley> incidentally, I think there may also need to be an 'embed' or 'plugin' context, but I haven't quite figured that out yet
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# [20:09] <annevk> yeah, HTML defines a bunch of that itself
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# [20:09] <annevk> getting these things extracted is good work
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# [20:10] <GPHemsley> HTML currently only uses "browsing context" by name
# [20:11] <GPHemsley> the rest are currently implicit
# [20:11] <GPHemsley> but I needed to figure them out so that I could have separate sniffing algorithms for each
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# [20:21] <matjas> annevk: any idea why i can’t seem to ssh into html5.org anymore?
# [20:21] <matjas> getting “Connection to html5.org closed by remote host. Connection to html5.org closed.”
# [20:21] <GPHemsley> annevk: OK, updated with CSP directives and 'plugin' context type
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# [20:22] <GPHemsley> oh, hmm, maybe I should move that column
# [20:26] <rillian> Ms2ger: I'm actually a little surprised no one's tried to fix the MSP thing. It's not like the network doesn't have to run the same daemon on all servers, so it should be easy to extend the protocol on that side to do multiple routing and de-dup
# [20:27] <Ms2ger> ?
# [20:29] <GPHemsley> Updated: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Contexts
# [20:29] <GPHemsley> (Help removing questions marks appreciated.)
# [20:32] <rillian> Ms2ger: MST, not MSP. It's going to be one of those typo days
# [20:32] * rillian considers tea
# [20:33] <Ms2ger> Michigan State Police?
# [20:33] <Ms2ger> Ministerio de Salud Pública?
# [20:33] <GPHemsley> how are those different?
# [20:33] <Ms2ger> Measurements of Student Progress?
# [20:33] <GPHemsley> ^_^
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# [20:34] * Ms2ger wonders if there's any website with reasonable UX in English that covers most European rail
# [20:38] <jgraham> I thought everyone used the german rail website for tat
# [20:38] <jgraham> *that
# [20:39] <jgraham> But I don't know about "reasonable UX"
# [20:39] * hober2 is now known as hober
# [20:39] <jgraham> Although if search is anything to go by, my information might be outdated
# [20:41] <Domenic_> hmm this is getting linked to from a popular-this-week stackoverflow answer; someone (annevk?) might want to update it... https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/DOM_Levels
# [20:42] <rillian> Ms2ger: Minimal Spanning Tree. I was referring to your comments of an hour past
# [20:42] <jgraham> Domenic_: Which SO? Or don't you know?
# [20:44] <Domenic_> jgraham: I got it in my weekly Programmers newsletter. http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/200247/a-few-clarifications-about-the-dom?newsletter=1&nlcode=31316|4c54
# [20:45] <annevk> Domenic_: heh, that seems quite out of date
# [20:45] <Ms2ger> jgraham, yeah, that does look a lot better than what I ended up with before, thanks
# [20:45] <annevk> matjas: no, email me?
# [20:45] <annevk> matjas: can sort out tomorrow hopefully
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# [20:47] <jgraham> Hmm, someone with a SO account might like to provide a better answer
# [20:48] <Ms2ger> (It's Dutch translation doesn't appear to be entirely accurate, but hey, there is one)
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# [21:25] <Ms2ger> Heh, CSS Eleven
# [21:26] <nimbu> wat
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# [21:28] <Ms2ger> http://my.opera.com/dstorey/blog/css-eleven seems to be a contemporary blog post about them
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# [21:31] <miketaylr> is this like html5 superfriends?
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# [21:32] <Ms2ger> Mm, forgot about those too
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# [21:32] <Ms2ger> I guess those turned out just as useless
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# [21:38] <tantek> Ms2ger - nah - html5superfriends had an impact on the spec
# [21:38] <tantek> e.g. <time> improvements very much started from brainstorming among the html5superfriends
# [21:38] <tantek> also, AFAIK CSS Eleven as just an announcement - I don't know of any actual output
# [21:39] <tantek> whereas HTML5 Super Friends published http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/
# [21:39] <tantek> and http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/
# [21:39] <tantek> and was also one of the inspirations for me to write my book on HTML5.
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# [21:47] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure that "guide" was entirely ignored
# [21:47] <jgraham> Except to the extent that you personally championed issues on the mailing lists
# [21:47] <jgraham> Which is not surprising
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# [21:48] <jgraham> Making fancy announcements doesn't impress anyone
# [21:48] <jgraham> Doing actual work does
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# [22:01] <tantek> jgraham, nah, the guide was well read because it was easy to read by a broad audience.
# [22:01] <tantek> and then we filed follow-up issues to get actual changes made
# [22:02] <tantek> the context of 2009 is also important, when there was a lot of hype+disappointment
# [22:02] <tantek> in "HTML5"
# [22:02] <tantek> so part of the point was to provide a broader recommendation that yes, in general HTML5 is good, and that web designers ought to move forward with it
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# [22:03] <tantek> web designers read blogs/twitter more than #whatwg or certainly lists^H^H^H^H^H support forums.
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# [22:19] <Hixie_> tantek: the "superfriends" didn't influence the spec, you did
# [22:19] <tantek> Hixie - the superfriends influenced me
# [22:19] <tantek> transitive
# [22:19] <tantek> even if bottlenecked - which you know something about
# [22:19] <Hixie_> in that case the war on iraq influenced the spec :-P
# [22:20] <tantek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect :P
# [22:20] <Hixie_> yeah i don't think that's a useful definition for discussion :-)
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# [23:51] <shepazu> hober, is this a candidate for W3CMemes? http://schepers.cc/svg/text/simply-wrap-text-in-SVG.png
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# Session Close: Thu Jun 06 00:00:00 2013

The end :)