/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 07 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie_> i think the Contexts thing is fine assuming it doesn't affect the interface to other specs
  4. # [00:01] <GPHemsley> I think it may help them too
  5. # [00:01] <GPHemsley> but my first question is really, do you want to put them in HTML, or should I put them in mimesniff?
  6. # [00:02] <GPHemsley> annevk et al. might be able to tell you more about how it relates to CSP and Fetch and other things
  7. # [00:03] <GPHemsley> see e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2013Jun/0027.html
  8. # [00:03] * Aww is now known as erryaww
  9. # [00:04] <GPHemsley> basically, the idea is that you can't fetch something from an HTML page without having a context to fetch it through
  10. # [00:05] <GPHemsley> (I'm picturing "context" as a tunnel or a tube or a lens)
  11. # [00:06] <GPHemsley> same with CSS
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  15. # [00:12] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: mimesniffm i think
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie_> or fetch
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  20. # [00:15] <GPHemsley> yeah, maybe fetch
  21. # [00:15] <GPHemsley> but I think HTML should at least mention them
  22. # [00:16] <GPHemsley> because they tend to be associated with particular elements
  23. # [00:16] <GPHemsley> I plan to make a list of them, if no one beats me to it
  24. # [00:16] <Hixie_> i'd rather not do anything that is purely editorial in the near future
  25. # [00:16] <Hixie_> trying to deal with feedback of a more serious nature first
  26. # [00:16] <Hixie_> since i'm getting behind on it
  27. # [00:17] <Hixie_> "the perfect is the enemy of the good", and all
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  34. # [00:29] <GPHemsley> oh, I wasn't viewing it as purely editorial, but ok
  35. # [00:31] <Hixie_> oh
  36. # [00:31] <Hixie_> what's the normative effect?
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  53. # [00:38] <GPHemsley> it's a hook, essentially
  54. # [00:39] <GPHemsley> for other specs to latch on to
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  56. # [00:39] <GPHemsley> and to make clear how to treat fetches
  57. # [00:39] <GPHemsley> (you can only fetch within a context)
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  59. # [00:41] <Hixie_> i don't really see what this gains us over what we have now
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  70. # [00:55] <GPHemsley> clarity and explicitness?
  71. # [00:56] <Hixie_> right, that's editorial :-)
  72. # [00:56] <Hixie_> i'm not denying that editorial improvements have value
  73. # [00:56] <Hixie_> just that right now, for me, they're not a priority
  74. # [00:56] <GPHemsley> alright
  75. # [00:56] <Hixie_> because they're always lower priority than actual normative issues, and right now i'm unable to keep up with normative issues
  76. # [00:56] <GPHemsley> but I'll proceed as if somebody plans to add them somewhere at some point
  77. # [00:56] <Hixie_> with reasonable lag
  78. # [00:57] <Hixie_> if you need more important stuff to work on, we have plenty of stuff that will have more impact :-)
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  80. # [00:57] <GPHemsley> I think this is important within the realm of mimesniff
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  82. # [00:57] <GPHemsley> though it's debatable where mimesniff itself falls on the importance scale
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  85. # [00:58] <GPHemsley> I think the organization of mimesniff is dreadful right now
  86. # [00:58] <GPHemsley> so adding this context stuff will make it less dreadful
  87. # [00:59] <GPHemsley> but if you have other ideas, I'm all ears
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  89. # [01:00] <GPHemsley> (like I said, I plan to have a separate sniffing algorithm for each context in that list)
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  92. # [01:00] <GPHemsley> (the style context needs one the most, I think, of those that don't already have one)
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  95. # [01:01] <GPHemsley> though I do agree that not many people seem to care about mimesniff
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  99. # [01:04] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: i think mimesniff is closer to done than you do :-)
  100. # [01:04] <GPHemsley> perhaps
  101. # [01:04] <Hixie_> GPHemsley: put it this way, if you had to edit mimesniff and the entire html spec, how much would you care now? :-)
  102. # [01:04] <GPHemsley> oh, yeah, no, I get it :)
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  105. # [01:05] <GPHemsley> but if you have other things for me to do, let me know
  106. # [01:05] <GPHemsley> I'm pondering the GIF thing
  107. # [01:05] <GPHemsley> but that's probably mostly done, too
  108. # [01:06] <GPHemsley> (I have to admit, though, that I feel like I've only just gotten a handle on mimesniff in the last few weeks)
  109. # [01:06] <GPHemsley> (mentally, that is)
  110. # [01:06] <Hixie_> there's a big list of things that need doing, see the wiki :-)
  111. # [01:07] <Hixie_> i can help out more with that tomorrow morning if you want
  112. # [01:07] <Hixie_> right now i gotta go soon
  113. # [01:07] <GPHemsley> alright
  114. # [01:07] <GPHemsley> though I think the specs todo page could use an audit itself
  115. # [01:08] <GPHemsley> (and I'm not sure how many of the things on that list I'm actually capable of tackling)
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  272. # [09:08] <matjas> “Like all of the WHATWG specs, it initially looks like the aftermath of a cluster bomb in a scrabble factory, but once you’ve read it for the 5th time and wiped the blood from your eyes, it’s actually pretty interesting” — http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/speed/script-loading/
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  323. # [11:34] <zcorpan> so webkit/blink allow insertRule() for cross-origin style sheets but gecko/presto don't
  324. # [11:36] <zcorpan> ie10 allows it as well
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  337. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> MikeSmit1, ping
  338. # [12:08] <MikeSmit1> yup
  339. # [12:09] * MikeSmit1 is now known as MikeSmith
  340. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> Something fun about the list archives
  341. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> I hit [ respond to this message ] on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec-testsuite/2013Jun/0001.html
  342. # [12:10] * MikeSmith looks
  343. # [12:10] <jgraham> MikeSmith: (btw, while you are here, were you going to send Rebecca a list of tests for TestTWF Tokyo?)
  344. # [12:10] <jgraham> *test areas
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  346. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> But the In reply to link at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2013AprJun/0095.html managed to end up broken
  347. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> It links to http://www.w3.org/mid/%3C370C9BEB4DD6154FA963E2F79ADC6F2E27AEAD7F@DEN-EXDDA-S12.corp.ebay.com%3E
  348. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> Where it should be http://www.w3.org/mid/370C9BEB4DD6154FA963E2F79ADC6F2E27AEAD7F@DEN-EXDDA-S12.corp.ebay.com (without the <>)
  349. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> jgraham: didn't yet but if you have time, can you?
  350. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> I'm on my mobile
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  353. # [12:11] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I guess I can try and do that. I don't remember what we decided though
  354. # [12:11] <Ms2ger> Logs are your friend :)
  355. # [12:12] <jgraham> Indeed :)
  356. # [12:12] <Ms2ger> And hallvors had some stuff too in #webapps
  357. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> w didn't decide -- just bounced a few ideas
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  359. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> hallvors mentioned xhr tests
  360. # [12:13] <Ms2ger> (Somehow I suspect none of them will want to review the webappsec PRs)
  361. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: no clue on that archive weirdness. I'll alert the systems team
  362. # [12:14] <hallvors> I sent Rebecca an E-mail and she replied.
  363. # [12:14] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, ta
  364. # [12:15] <Ms2ger> I asked her about box-sizing on IRC; she wanted to hear what fantasai thought, but fantasai didn't want to think
  365. # [12:15] <odinho> WAT!
  366. # [12:15] <hallvors> They have a list of stuff to focus on (some of it especially related to Japanese issues, which seems like a good idea)
  367. # [12:15] <odinho> I wanted help with CORS tests :P -- And EventSource-fix for mozilla.
  368. # [12:15] <Ms2ger> hallvors, marquee? ;)
  369. # [12:15] <jgraham> hallvors: You already sent an XHR list?
  370. # [12:16] <jgraham> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/VkkW1BU54C
  371. # [12:16] <jgraham> Did we decide form elements?
  372. # [12:16] <hallvors> I just point out the list I already put in a comment on https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/128
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  380. # [12:21] <jgraham> I feel like suggesting applet is too cruel
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  385. # [12:28] <jgraham> hallvors: Do you have any recollection of whether the script scheduling tests tested XML?
  386. # [12:28] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-xhtml-syntax.html#parsing-xhtml-documents "When an XML parser"
  387. # [12:30] <Ms2ger> You were talking cruel?
  388. # [12:30] * jgraham is sad that those are still under old-tests
  389. # [12:30] <jgraham> Well it's less bad than the HTML case :)
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  392. # [12:32] <jgraham> The amount of stuff still under old-tests/submissions/ is sadness
  393. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> Getting Aryeh's reflection tests merged would be nice too...
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  396. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> Lovely: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22291
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  398. # [12:37] * jgraham is glad that bz doesn't want to be a supervillan
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  400. # [12:38] <jgraham> Also, getting people to address issues on existing pull requests/reviews is a good idea
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  402. # [12:43] <Ms2ger> Is there any way to get a diff that doesn't cut off all the text in https://github.com/dontcallmedom/web-platform-tests/commit/1179ab58108d5fb7e0eb2ef55fe90b2401be9cb3 ?
  403. # [12:47] <odinho> 12:37 < jgraham> Also, getting people to address issues on existing pull requests/reviews is a good idea <<--- this what I wanted with the CORS tests
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  411. # [13:14] <jgraham> Hmm, there are some nicy easy looking reviews for anyone that knows CSP
  412. # [13:18] <jgraham> I wonder if we have a policy about UA-specific cruft in tests
  413. # [13:19] <jgraham> abarth has submitted CSP tests with X-WebKit headers in
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  416. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> I believe the policy is "no"
  417. # [13:21] <jgraham> So do I
  418. # [13:21] <jgraham> Not sure we have it written down anywhere though
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  420. # [13:22] <jochen__> that might just an oversight
  421. # [13:22] <jochen__> given that blink wants to go prefix-less nowadays
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  426. # [13:32] <hsivonen> Are there now X-WebKit headers???
  427. # [13:33] <hsivonen> or just did you just mean WebKit-specific X-Foo?
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  429. # [13:35] <jgraham> Well
  430. # [13:35] <jgraham> The test has Content-Security-Policy, X-Content-Security-Policy and X-WebKit-Content-Security-Policy
  431. # [13:36] <jgraham> Oh, sorry
  432. # [13:36] <hsivonen> sadness
  433. # [13:36] <jgraham> X-WebKit-CSP
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  445. # [14:18] <hallvors> jgraham: sorry, didn't see question "Do you have any recollection of whether the script scheduling tests tested XML?" before
  446. # [14:19] <hallvors> but I'm pretty sure the answer is "no, they don't"
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  454. # [14:39] <hsivonen> what should my schedule expactiations be for the CSS WG processing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2012Dec/0000.html and publishing a revised version of the CSS 2.1 test suite?
  455. # [14:40] <hsivonen> *expectations
  456. # [14:40] <hsivonen> it's harmful to have outdated test suites out there
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  460. # [14:44] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, ^
  461. # [14:45] <hsivonen> some more UTF-16 uselessness: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=879753
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  493. # [15:55] <GPHemsley> Safari is the most frustrating browser when it comes to unsupported MIME types...
  494. # [15:55] <GPHemsley> it just downloads everything it doesn't recognize automatically
  495. # [15:56] <GPHemsley> so now I have a whole downloads folder of Safari cruft
  496. # [15:56] <GPHemsley> all without my consent
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  498. # [15:57] <zewt> asking for user consent seems to be a dying idea
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  500. # [15:58] <zewt> remember when things would actually ask permission before updating? yeah i can hardly remember that myself
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  507. # [16:04] <GPHemsley> oh cynicism
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  524. # [16:18] <zewt> skype nagged me to update (to a version I knew had an unusable UI) over and over, then it just updated without asking
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  528. # [16:20] <GPHemsley> ah
  529. # [16:21] <GPHemsley> but I'm more concerned about Safari downloading something that
  530. # [16:21] <GPHemsley> 's potentially unsafe
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  573. # [18:09] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Oh, one reason that the context change is more than editorial is because it should refer directly to mimesniff
  574. # [18:10] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
  575. # [18:10] <GPHemsley> http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#context-specific-sniffing
  576. # [18:10] <GPHemsley> (I'm fleshing these out)
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  581. # [18:14] <Hixie_> what difference will it require in implementations?
  582. # [18:16] <GPHemsley> assuming the implementations are not already interoperable, it will require them to become so
  583. # [18:16] <GPHemsley> in terms of when/what/how to sniff in each context
  584. # [18:16] <GPHemsley> because the contexts do not all have the same rules
  585. # [18:16] <GPHemsley> (or won't, when they're actually written)
  586. # [18:16] <Hixie_> doesn't HTML already explicitly say which rules to use when?
  587. # [18:18] <GPHemsley> only for certain contexts
  588. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> not for others
  589. # [18:19] <GPHemsley> but I still concede this is still ~90% editorial
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  593. # [18:20] <Hixie_> which doesn't it specify it for?
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  595. # [18:22] <GPHemsley> I think browsing, image, and audio/video specified
  596. # [18:22] <GPHemsley> but the rest aren't, AFAIK
  597. # [18:22] <Hixie_> do any of the rest do any sniffing at all?
  598. # [18:23] <GPHemsley> perhaps not yet, but they should—these are edge cases that perhaps people haven't considered yet
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  600. # [18:23] <Hixie_> i'm pretty sure i've considered them :-)
  601. # [18:23] <GPHemsley> there are a number of issues on file with Mozilla about how to sniff in the style context that I'm tackling now
  602. # [18:24] <Hixie_> style context?
  603. # [18:25] <GPHemsley> see, you have no definition ;)
  604. # [18:25] <GPHemsley> the "style context" is whenever a stylesheet is loaded
  605. # [18:26] <GPHemsley> in HTML, that's mostly <link rel=stylesheet>
  606. # [18:26] <Hixie_> that shouldn't sniff at all
  607. # [18:26] <GPHemsley> in CSS, it's @import
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  609. # [18:26] <GPHemsley> what happens if the resource is served without a Content-Type header?
  610. # [18:26] <Hixie_> treat as text/css
  611. # [18:26] <GPHemsley> that has security implications
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  613. # [18:27] <GPHemsley> if an untagged HTML file is treated as text/css, unexpected things can happen
  614. # [18:27] <Hixie_> like what?
  615. # [18:27] <Hixie_> you can't read the DOM unless it's same origin
  616. # [18:28] <GPHemsley> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=560388
  617. # [18:28] <GPHemsley> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=562377
  618. # [18:29] <Hixie_> that first one seems to apply to all "contexts", it's just about distinguishing bogus from missing
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  620. # [18:30] <Hixie_> that second one seems to just say that i was wrong about the no-type case
  621. # [18:30] <Hixie_> it should be treated as bogus
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  623. # [18:31] <GPHemsley> sorry, was trying to have two conversations at once
  624. # [18:31] <GPHemsley> apparently that's hard
  625. # [18:31] <GPHemsley> anyway
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  627. # [18:32] <GPHemsley> the bottom line with 562377 was that the style context can't use the same sniffing rules as the browsing context
  628. # [18:33] <GPHemsley> err
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  630. # [18:33] <GPHemsley> 560388
  631. # [18:33] <Hixie_> seems like the conclusion is that it shouldn't sniff at all
  632. # [18:33] <Hixie_> it definitely shouldn't use the same sniffing rules as the browsing context, nobody is suggesting it should, as far as i can tell
  633. # [18:33] <Hixie_> certainly not the spec, right?
  634. # [18:33] <GPHemsley> well, that's the part I'm trying to clarify
  635. # [18:33] <GPHemsley> with these contexts
  636. # [18:34] <GPHemsley> but no, I don't think HTML says it should
  637. # [18:34] <GPHemsley> mimesniff used to seem that way, though
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  639. # [18:34] <GPHemsley> which is the part I'm working on now
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  641. # [18:38] <Hixie_> i think if mimesniff just provides algorithms, and doesn't invoke any of them itself, it's quite sufficient
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  646. # [18:41] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: I'm not sure what you mean; what is it currently invoking (or what do you think I want it to be invoking)?
  647. # [18:42] <Hixie_> i'm not saying it is or will
  648. # [18:42] <Hixie_> was just being complete in my description
  649. # [18:42] <GPHemsley> ah
  650. # [18:42] <GPHemsley> well, yeah, then I agree
  651. # [18:43] <Hixie_> this context stuff seems like a very convoluted way of doing it :-)
  652. # [18:43] <GPHemsley> really? convoluted how? I thought it makes things clearer
  653. # [18:43] <GPHemsley> (and annevk seemed to like it)
  654. # [18:44] <Hixie_> "run sniffing algorithm #3 for resource /x/, to obtain sniffed type /y/" seems nice and trivial and doesn't involve having to define contexts
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  656. # [18:44] <GPHemsley> if you always fetch through the lens of a context, you never have confusion as to which set of rules to follow
  657. # [18:44] <GPHemsley> I mean, it's just a name
  658. # [18:44] <Hixie_> if you always just call the sniffing algorithm directly there's no confusion either :-)
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  660. # [18:45] <Hixie_> what is confused today?
  661. # [18:45] <GPHemsley> this modularizes the sniffing algorithm so that you don't have one big complex thing
  662. # [18:45] <Hixie_> we don't have one big complex thing today either do we?
  663. # [18:45] <GPHemsley> like I said, prior to the context stuff I added today, it seemed like the MIME sniffing algorithm should be used everywhere
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  665. # [18:45] <GPHemsley> which, as written, is/was not appropriate
  666. # [18:46] <Hixie_> oh well i'm fine with adding non-normative text that says "don't use this unless you have a legacy compat reason to do so"
  667. # [18:46] <Hixie_> i kinda assumed we already had that
  668. # [18:46] <GPHemsley> I think a lot of this issue is bogged down by legacy terminology
  669. # [18:47] <GPHemsley> in that "sniffing" is a bit of a misnomer for my current vision of this spec
  670. # [18:47] <Hixie_> (re "anne likes it" -- anne has a habit of making these same kinds of "simplifications" that require tons of changes to html too :-P)
  671. # [18:47] <GPHemsley> my current vision of this spec is to describe how to determine the MIME type of a file—whether through sniffing or otherwise
  672. # [18:48] <Hixie_> the mime type of a file without sniffing is trivial
  673. # [18:48] <Hixie_> it's the value of the Content-Type header
  674. # [18:49] <GPHemsley> it's not always that simple
  675. # [18:49] <GPHemsley> but I feel like we could argue this around in circles
  676. # [18:50] <GPHemsley> this is mostly about terminological homogenization
  677. # [18:51] <GPHemsley> Hixie_: Did you see this? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2013Jun/0027.html
  678. # [18:52] <GPHemsley> also, the "How to use a context" set of steps on the wiki page?
  679. # [18:52] <Hixie_> i don't object to stuff like this in general
  680. # [18:52] <GPHemsley> I can't tell if you're objecting to the idea, or just the cost-benefit ratio of adding it to the HTML spec :P
  681. # [18:52] <Hixie_> i just object to it while we have higher-priority stuff missing or broken
  682. # [18:52] <Hixie_> the latter
  683. # [18:53] <Hixie_> i'm not updating the HTML spec for this kind of stuff any time soon (like, coming year, probably)
  684. # [18:53] <Hixie_> i've got a ton of higher-priority stuff
  685. # [18:53] <GPHemsley> that's fine
  686. # [18:53] <Hixie_> same with anne's fetch spec, that's why he has the "legacy" algorithms
  687. # [18:53] <Hixie_> or as i call them, "the algorithms" :-P
  688. # [18:53] <GPHemsley> heh
  689. # [18:55] <Hixie_> btw if you want something more important to do, the editing spec is in dire need of an editor
  690. # [18:55] <Hixie_> since aryeh has had to move on to other things
  691. # [18:55] <GPHemsley> link?
  692. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing
  693. # [18:55] <Hixie_> ...ms2ger beat me to it
  694. # [18:55] <GPHemsley> ugh, you want me to work with the W3C? >_>
  695. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> It's a CG
  696. # [18:56] <Hixie_> it's in a cg, like html
  697. # [18:56] <Hixie_> if you want to merge it with the whatwg cg that's fine by me
  698. # [18:56] <GPHemsley> I have to admit, I've remained relatively ignorant of the bureaucracy over there
  699. # [18:56] <Hixie_> there's basically none for cgs
  700. # [18:57] <Hixie_> if you did want to work on that spec and wanted to skip all bureaucracy, you could just take it and make it a whatwg spec the same way as the mime sniffing spec
  701. # [18:57] <Hixie_> since it's an open license spec
  702. # [18:57] <Hixie_> and the old version is not maintained
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  705. # [18:59] <GPHemsley> FFR, this was more the type of I link I was interested in: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html
  706. # [18:59] <GPHemsley> ;)
  707. # [18:59] <GPHemsley> but apparently the styling is broken
  708. # [18:59] <Hixie_> oh i thought that's what Ms2ger gave, my bad :-)
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  711. # [19:03] <GPHemsley> does the whatwg stylesheet prevent cross-site loading?
  712. # [19:03] <Hixie_> not in theory, but there might be cross-protocol blocking going on
  713. # [19:03] <Hixie_> whatwg is not https:
  714. # [19:03] <GPHemsley> ah
  715. # [19:03] <GPHemsley> indeed, Aurora is giving me a half shield
  716. # [19:03] <GPHemsley> there we go
  717. # [19:04] <GPHemsley> "This is an open issue. All issues other than this one are non-normative. "
  718. # [19:04] <GPHemsley> somewhat paradoxical
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  721. # [19:06] <GPHemsley> oh, this would take me ages to understand...
  722. # [19:07] <Hixie_> that's how you know it's important :-P
  723. # [19:07] <GPHemsley> I've never even *used* HTML editing
  724. # [19:08] <GPHemsley> you'd _definitely_ have to pay me to work on this :P
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  726. # [19:09] <Hixie_> hah
  727. # [19:12] <Ms2ger> That's how he sucked in Aryeh, and we know how that ended...
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  729. # [19:15] <GPHemsley> I mean, I'm generous with my time, but I'm not *this* generous ;)
  730. # [19:15] <Hixie_> :-)
  731. # [19:16] <GPHemsley> I do have bills that I need paid
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  804. # [22:17] <GPHemsley> It's always fun to see which sites are parsing Accept-Language incorrectly
  805. # [22:18] <GPHemsley> and by "fun" I mean "sad"
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  808. # [22:24] <Hixie_> isn't it harder to find some parsing it right? :-)
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  812. # [22:35] <GPHemsley> probably... but there's a clear distinction between parsing it wrong and not parsing it right, and my particular Accept-Language settings bring that to light
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The end :)