/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 21 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <dekiss> check ecmascript language specification :)
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  14. # [00:17] <dekiss> if I add enter key html unicode code unit to the text node as text and if that text node is in element which has white-space: pre-wrap, will that make new line?
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  18. # [00:20] <Hixie> wtf. why does http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/location/cross-origin/001.html sometimes fail in chrome.
  19. # [00:20] <rafaelw> Hixie: IE seems to through away content attribute values it doesn't like. Gecko/WK/Blink all keep (but ignore) them. Trying to figure out what the spec says about this.
  20. # [00:20] <Hixie> rafaelw: content attributes are never sanitised.
  21. # [00:20] <rafaelw> http://jsbin.com/aputuk/7/edit
  22. # [00:21] <Hixie> rafaelw: they can always be set, they can always be removed, they can always be read.
  23. # [00:21] <Hixie> rafaelw: (specced in DOM Core)
  24. # [00:21] <rafaelw> reference?
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  27. # [00:22] <Hixie> hard to say what to reference, since it's the absence of any requirements to the contrary that define this :-)
  28. # [00:22] <rafaelw> I see.
  29. # [00:23] <Hixie> but e.g. see the spec for setAttribute()
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  31. # [00:26] <rafaelw> Ok. Thanks.
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  36. # [00:45] <dekiss> why this doesn't output value if the charset attribute alert(document.childNodes[1].childNodes[0].childNodes[1].charset);
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  70. # [01:33] <heycam> Hixie, pong
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  111. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> heycam: !
  112. # [02:25] <heycam> TabAtkins, hi :)
  113. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> [MapClass]?
  114. # [02:25] <heycam> yes yes, I know :)
  115. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> ^_^
  116. # [02:25] * heycam still has a few days left in the week to make good
  117. # [02:26] <heycam> I saw the thread on www-style
  118. # [02:26] <heycam> (so I guess the implementation work is why you'd like it looked at soon)
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  122. # [02:31] <TabAtkins> Yup!
  123. # [02:32] <TabAtkins> Was talking with the implementor a few minutes ago.
  124. # [02:32] <heycam> cool
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  134. # [02:52] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yo, are the W3C versions of PostMessage/SSE/WebWorkers/etc all still accurate? Are they genned off of the current WHATWG spec, or what?
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  180. # [04:58] <annevk> TabAtkins: sequence<Node> won't have .find and .findAll on it, so I think arv is wrong
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  193. # [05:24] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think the ones in dev.w3.org are, but i wouldn't bet on it
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  195. # [05:24] <Hixie> TabAtkins: certainly the canonical material as far as i'm concerned is the material in whatwg.org/c
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  272. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> damn who fuglied up the desktop notifications in the Chromium trunk, and why
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  291. # [09:29] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22422 is pretty ugly :/
  292. # [09:30] <annevk> Maybe Hixie already handles that for images in HTML... But that wouldn't cover CSS so I guess not
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  299. # [09:44] <annevk> Doesn't seem to be handled. I wonder if the HTTP gods are aware of this.
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  316. # [10:34] <annevk> hallvors: so, 304 is a very distinct case from redirects
  317. # [10:35] <annevk> hallvors: I'm sure the HTTP gods had some interesting reason to mix it in with them, but when it comes down to it, the logic for it is different and it needs to be handled separately
  318. # [10:35] <hallvors> you're right
  319. # [10:36] * hallvors is curious about Anne's religion
  320. # [10:36] <hallvors> I should rather investigate how much of that header stuff is implemented
  321. # [10:37] * hallvors #stilsleepy
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  326. # [10:40] <annevk> hallvors: I don't believe in the HTTP gods, but they do exist
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  328. # [10:42] <hallvors> X-Anne-Faith: HTTP-Conditional
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  330. # [10:42] <hallvors> Well, at least Chrome supports the 304 stuff in the spec as written
  331. # [10:42] <hallvors> according to your test
  332. # [10:43] <hallvors> I'm a bit surprised Opera didn't support it according to that test - because we did some work on behaving like a "caching proxy" for XHR a while back
  333. # [10:43] <annevk> That bug was still open when I still had an account :)
  334. # [10:43] <hallvors> (but there may also still be some magic somewhere that makes requests with query less caching)
  335. # [10:44] <hallvors> hm.. I thought some work was done on it, maybe not enough to actually ship a fix though
  336. # [10:44] <annevk> It's a bit unclear to me what the spec says is actionable enough. I feel like maybe we should turn that into some kind of flag too...
  337. # [10:44] <hallvors> I should look up the bug
  338. # [10:44] <annevk> E.g. if you set header 1 or 2, set the "pass 304 through flag". If that flag is set, don't change 304 into 200.
  339. # [10:46] <annevk> Or more likely, if it's unset, change 304 into 200 :)
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  341. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> http://m.itworld.com/361807/foxconn-hire-3000-support-firefox-os-and-software-development
  342. # [10:49] <annevk> wow, they went from .5-1 Mozilla to 3 Mozillas pretty quickly
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  344. # [10:50] <karlcow> hallvors: CORE-37327
  345. # [10:50] <karlcow> maybe
  346. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> "It's looking for software engineers with skills in HTML5 operating systems"
  347. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> All 20 of them?
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  350. # [10:55] <miketaylr> what if i have skills in 15 - 18 HTML5 OSes, do i get the job?
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  355. # [11:00] <annevk> I think Ms2ger meant there's only 20 people with the relevant skills
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  357. # [11:00] <annevk> Like that now decade old IBM job listing. Might as well list them by name
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  360. # [11:02] * Ms2ger thought of the same thing
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  362. # [11:03] <miketaylr> boo, thanks for ruining my joke annevk
  363. # [11:03] <karlcow> :)
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  365. # [11:06] <hallvors> karlcow: thanks - that's the fixed one, CORE-1033 is the still open one
  366. # [11:07] <karlcow> damned, I was not subscribed to this one. Not in my mail archive. :)
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  377. # [11:51] <SteveF> hixie: appears the mutlipage and the one page of the whatwg spec are out of phase the multi-page is a day behind
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  379. # [11:54] <SteveF> Hixie: appears the mutlipage and the one page of the whatwg spec are out of phase the multi-page is a day behind (once again with right nick)
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  477. # [16:34] <zewt> hixie==hixie
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  497. # [17:35] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  518. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> annevk: What. The. Fuck. Jeezus, the webidl situation up in here is *fucked up* if all I want is freaking array of nodes with useful functions.
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  520. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> annevk: On the other hand, going with NodeList means you don't get .filter or .map.
  521. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> This shouldn't be a choice we have to make.
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  534. # [18:42] <gsnedders> FYI: am migrating remaining html5lib-python issues from Google Code.
  535. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> I read "to"
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  552. # [19:36] <gsnedders> Zero issues remaining on GCode.
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  585. # [20:50] <abarth> I tried to write a proposal that would let you connect to a remote window in a similar way to how you can connect to a shared worker: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RemoteDocumentMessaging
  586. # [20:50] <abarth> how badly did I screw it up? :)
  587. # [20:56] <abarth> i guess folks aren't around. I'll ask on the mailing list
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  591. # [21:04] <Hixie> remote in what sense?
  592. # [21:04] <abarth> not in the same unit of related browsing contexts
  593. # [21:04] <abarth> e.g., you don't already have a JavaScript reference to the window object
  594. # [21:05] <Hixie> why not just use a shared worker? that's what they're for :-)
  595. # [21:05] <abarth> they consume resources
  596. # [21:05] <abarth> e.g., memory
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  599. # [21:05] <Hixie> hmm
  600. # [21:06] <abarth> as far as I can tell, all the mechanisms exist in the platform
  601. # [21:06] <Hixie> so much as to be prohibitive? what are y'all putting in these workers? :-P
  602. # [21:07] <abarth> consider the use case in the wiki page
  603. # [21:07] <Hixie> i'm not sure window.name would be the best way to identify a target, but other than that this could work
  604. # [21:07] <abarth> should the word processing site always spin up a shared worker just in case?
  605. # [21:07] <Hixie> if they're cheap, yeah
  606. # [21:08] <Hixie> if they're not, i'd have gone more for a "broadcast message to same origin pages" approach, where you tell everyone "hey anyone out there?" and see if anyone responds
  607. # [21:08] <abarth> why not broadcast to some name within an origin?
  608. # [21:08] <abarth> if you've got a large origin with lots of different stuff
  609. # [21:09] * Hixie sits down rather than typing over the desk
  610. # [21:09] <abarth> you don't want them have to bring all the pages out of swap
  611. # [21:09] <abarth> just to send them a message they don't care about
  612. # [21:09] <Hixie> yeah, that's fair enough
  613. # [21:09] * Parts: jreading (~Adium@ip98-169-193-48.dc.dc.cox.net)
  614. # [21:09] <Hixie> window.name isn't unique
  615. # [21:10] <Hixie> in particular, what you really want in the case you mentioned on the wiki page is to broadcast to other instances of yourself
  616. # [21:10] <abarth> yeah
  617. # [21:10] <Hixie> so window.name would be awkward
  618. # [21:10] <Hixie> but you could register to receive messages on a particular topic, for instance
  619. # [21:10] <abarth> we should use a different name
  620. # [21:10] <abarth> window.subscribeTo("the-topic")
  621. # [21:11] <Hixie> another solution might be to make shared workers much cheaper by having a way to delay the actual shared worker creation until such time as multiple connections are attempted
  622. # [21:11] <abarth> window.broadcastMessage("hi there", "the-topic") ?
  623. # [21:11] * Aww is now known as EvilAww
  624. # [21:11] <Hixie> but i'm not sure the shared worker being expensive is that big a deal. wouldn't an editor want a worker to be doing all the work in the background anyway?
  625. # [21:11] <Hixie> in which case, making it shared is a non-issue
  626. # [21:11] <Hixie> brb, oqne sec
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  628. # [21:16] <abarth> I agree with you that if shared workers were free, web sites could build this mechanism themselves
  629. # [21:16] <abarth> but they're not free :)
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  631. # [21:18] <Hixie> back
  632. # [21:18] <Hixie> yeah, but in the case of an editor, isn't it a sunk cost anyway?
  633. # [21:18] <abarth> I'm not sure I follow?
  634. # [21:18] <Hixie> wouldn't an editor want to put its networking and stuff in a worker?
  635. # [21:19] <abarth> this feature request is coming from the tech lead of an editor, and he says wouldn't need a shared worker anymore if we had this feature
  636. # [21:19] <abarth> currently, his shared worker is eating 70 MB of memory on my machine :)
  637. # [21:20] <Hixie> why wouldn't they use a worker, that's weird
  638. # [21:20] <Hixie> wait, wtf is he doing in his worker
  639. # [21:20] <Hixie> just to send messages takes 70 MB?!
  640. # [21:20] <Hixie> how about we fix that, rather than adding more features
  641. # [21:20] <Hixie> that's absurd
  642. # [21:20] <abarth> the problem is that shared workers are long-lived
  643. # [21:20] <abarth> so they accumulate resources
  644. # [21:21] <Hixie> that's... not how that works
  645. # [21:21] <Hixie> what are they accumulating?
  646. # [21:21] <abarth> e.g., the object graph grows if you're not careful to drop all references, and the heap fragments
  647. # [21:21] <abarth> dunno
  648. # [21:21] <Hixie> all he's doing is sending messages back and forth, how hard can it possibly be
  649. # [21:22] <abarth> by the way, I currently have zero documents open :)
  650. # [21:22] <abarth> one of the nice properties of the web is that resources are scoped to tabs
  651. # [21:23] <abarth> so you naturally clear them out as you browse around
  652. # [21:23] <abarth> shared workers are persistent, so they tend to accumulate cruft
  653. # [21:23] <Hixie> maybe i'm not understanding how this is going to work. when you open three of these tabs on the same document, is one of the tabs going to get promoted to master tab or something?
  654. # [21:23] <abarth> which means they require much higher skill levels use correctly
  655. # [21:23] <Hixie> and the others act as slaves?
  656. # [21:24] <Hixie> it just seems silly to me not to use a shared worker in this case. it's made for this precise thing.
  657. # [21:24] <Hixie> if it doesn't work for this, then we've failed and should just scrap shared workers.
  658. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Sounds like it's time to land the Gecko implementation, then
  659. # [21:25] <Hixie> if there's only one document open, and the shared worker is only used for managing multiple documents, then we can make the shared worker take zero resources until another tab attempts to connect to it
  660. # [21:25] <Hixie> by having an API that says "but don't actually create it until there's another client"
  661. # [21:26] <Hixie> which is to say, i understand that if there's just one client, having a shared worker is more expensive than necessary. but with multiple clients, especially N > 2, it seems just silly to avoid them.
  662. # [21:26] <abarth> I guess I don't understand why you need something as complicated as a shared worker just to do cross-document messaging
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  664. # [21:26] <Hixie> i don't understand why you think shared workers are complicated
  665. # [21:27] <abarth> I just want to send a message from one document to another. it seems unnecessary to make me write a third entity just to route the messages
  666. # [21:28] <abarth> should we make all cross-document messages flow through a shared worker?
  667. # [21:28] <abarth> why are cross-document messages in a single unit of related browsing contexts special and get to avoid the shared worker?
  668. # [21:28] <abarth> you agree it would be crazy to require a document to spin up a shared worker just to postMessage to one of its iframes, right?
  669. # [21:29] <abarth> or two iframes on the same page
  670. # [21:29] <abarth> so, why require a shared worker if the two iframes are in different windows?
  671. # [21:29] <Hixie> if it's 1:1, sure. but this use case isn't 1:1. it's n:n, with shared networking and shared document state, and with conflict resolution.
  672. # [21:29] <Hixie> that's not just 1:1 communication.
  673. # [21:30] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@72.21.225.66) (Quit: is sleepy)
  674. # [21:30] <abarth> I don't understand how the "two iframes in the same window" case is different from the "two frames in different windows" case
  675. # [21:31] <abarth> my point is just that a shared worker is massive overkill for this use case
  676. # [21:31] <Hixie> i'm not saying it is, i'm saying this use case isn't that
  677. # [21:33] <abarth> let me connect this back to my original use case
  678. # [21:33] <abarth> there are two ways of opening word processing documents
  679. # [21:33] <abarth> you can go to the list of all your documents and open them
  680. # [21:33] <abarth> or you can make a new tab, and open it by pasting in the URL
  681. # [21:33] * hober double click on it in Finder? :)
  682. # [21:34] <abarth> yes :)
  683. # [21:34] <abarth> in the first case, all the documents are in the same unit of related browsing contexts
  684. # [21:34] <abarth> and can communicate easily
  685. # [21:34] <abarth> in the second case, they can't because they don't have a script connection
  686. # [21:34] <abarth> so, just because they were opened by pasting in the URL, now they need to spin up a shared worker
  687. # [21:35] <Hixie> you're assuming that the user didn't open the list again to open the second doc
  688. # [21:35] <Hixie> (which i almost always do)
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  691. # [21:35] <abarth> there are many ways they can end up without a script connection
  692. # [21:35] <abarth> but there are also cases where they share a script connection, depending on how you ended up opening the documents
  693. # [21:36] <Hixie> in the common case, there is no script connection. yes.
  694. # [21:36] <Hixie> what does it matter if there's a script connection or not?
  695. # [21:36] <abarth> why is a shared worker required in the second case but not in the first case?
  696. # [21:36] <Hixie> i'd use one if the first case too
  697. # [21:36] <Hixie> the shared worker makes this problem like a zillion times easier
  698. # [21:37] <abarth> in what way?
  699. # [21:37] <abarth> the shared worker seems like massively more complexity than I need here
  700. # [21:37] <Hixie> you don't have to implement a "slave" mode for the tab and "master" mode for the tab.
  701. # [21:37] <abarth> why do should I need to author a separate script just to route messages?
  702. # [21:37] <Hixie> you don't have to worry, e.g., about your "master" tab getting killed half-way through synchronising a complicated merge.
  703. # [21:37] <abarth> why do I have to elect a master?
  704. # [21:37] <abarth> i'm confused
  705. # [21:38] <Hixie> you want to try to do n-way edit merges using some sort of cooperative algorithm??
  706. # [21:38] <Hixie> who should be in charge of sending the edits to the server, if not a master tab?
  707. # [21:38] <Hixie> this is just begging for a master-slave organisation.
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  709. # [21:39] <Hixie> which is exactly what shared workers are for.
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  712. # [21:40] <abarth> you're saying that one needs to be in charge of persisting the document to stable storage
  713. # [21:40] <abarth> normally, the server is in charge of that
  714. # [21:40] <abarth> if you're online, this is just a latency optimization to avoid round-tripping with the server
  715. # [21:40] <Hixie> one of them needs to be in charge of telling the server what the edits are
  716. # [21:41] <abarth> well, the edits originate in one window
  717. # [21:41] <abarth> the same problem occurs if the two documents are open on two different computers
  718. # [21:42] <Hixie> or the same computer in different browsers, sure. but in that case, they're not coordinating.
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  720. # [21:42] <abarth> just in that case, you'll tolerate more latency to round-trip with the server
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  722. # [21:42] <abarth> you could imagine being able to message between browsers, but that's a bit of an obscure case
  723. # [21:44] <abarth> thanks for the feedback. /me needs to get some lunch
  724. # [21:44] <abarth> I'll give it some more thought
  725. # [21:44] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@199.223.125.130)
  726. # [21:45] <abarth> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=161070 <--- If you're interested in this topic, you can CC yourself on this bug, which is the original feature request from the document editing folks
  727. # [21:47] <Hixie> separate from whether this use case should be solved that way, i don't a priori see anything wrong with a broadcast mechanism, fwiw.
  728. # [21:47] <Hixie> especially if we don't provide a zero-cost way to defer-start a shared worker.
  729. # [21:47] <Hixie> then i could see it as a way to coordinate when to start one, for instance.
  730. # [21:48] <abarth> this is related to the distributed locking proposal that fishd sent to the whatwg list a while ago
  731. # [21:48] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.161.246.197) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  732. # [21:48] <abarth> that's a sort of "one bit" coordination approach
  733. # [21:48] <Hixie> (not sure about using window.name, though. although maybe tha's better than having yet another registration mechanism.)
  734. # [21:49] <abarth> window.open("...", "the-channel")
  735. # [21:50] <abarth> has similar properties
  736. # [21:50] <abarth> in that you either create a new window or get back a way to communicate with an existing window of that name
  737. # [21:50] <abarth> but the security is screwed up because the names aren't scoped to an origin
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  739. # [21:51] <abarth> it's the current "discovery" mechanism
  740. # [21:51] <abarth> but yeah, I'm not sure window.name is the right thing either
  741. # [21:51] <abarth> i'll be back in a bit after I get some lunch
  742. # [21:53] <Hixie> later.
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  763. # [22:48] <abarth> I reworked the proposal to be a broadcast channel: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RemoteDocumentMessaging
  764. # [22:48] <abarth> there's still the question of whether a shared worker is a better fit for the use case, but I agree with you that the broadcast formulation is much cleaner
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  778. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> abarth: Looks nice and simple! At least, it seems to basically just be a super-simple pre-provided Shared Worker that just forwards messages to all connected pages.
  779. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> In fact, maybe we can just do it like that? Define a browser-provided (about:?) link that starts up a forwarding Worker.
  780. # [23:05] <abarth> you'd still want to have channel names
  781. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Yeah, deifnitely.
  782. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Bake that into the urls as an extension point.
  783. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> var port = new SharedWorker("about:bouncer/foo").port;
  784. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> You need domain magic to make this work, I guess.
  785. # [23:07] <abarth> the other nice thing about a channel name is that you can use a nonce
  786. # [23:07] <abarth> and have something like a private channel
  787. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> I'm agreeing with you. ^_^
  788. # [23:07] <abarth> sorry, I was just thinking outloud
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  790. # [23:08] <abarth> I don't understand how this stuff interacts with transferable objects
  791. # [23:08] <abarth> like, does this support zero-copy sending of ArrayBuffers?
  792. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Hm, neuterable objects wouldn't work, since it's multi-cast.
  793. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> Only things that could by copied.
  794. # [23:09] <abarth> so, can I send a MessagePort through the BroadcastChannel?
  795. # [23:09] <abarth> i guess only one listener would be able to receive it
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  797. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Those are copyable, no?
  798. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Maybe not.
  799. # [23:09] * TabAtkins doesn't know.
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  824. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> abarth: You could have two types of bouncers - one that's multicast and accepts as many channels as you want, and one that's singlecast and only accepts two connections at a time.
  825. # [23:58] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  826. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> abarth: Dunno how to indicate that the connection limit has been hit - immediately send a message back saying that it's full?
  827. # [23:59] <abarth> that's sort of like the async lock proposal
  828. # [23:59] <abarth> except the limit is 1
  829. # [23:59] <abarth> so, you're suggesting something more like a semaphore
  830. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but when you're trying to do a zero-copy transfer, that's exactly what you need.
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  832. # Session Close: Sat Jun 22 00:00:00 2013

The end :)