/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-06-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 25 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  30. # [00:51] <Hixie> rafaelw: ping (at your leisure)
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  47. # [01:22] <rafaelw> hixie: poing.
  48. # [01:22] <Hixie> hey
  49. # [01:22] <Hixie> so i'm trying to integrate the template parser thing
  50. # [01:23] <Hixie> and i've got some questions :-)
  51. # [01:23] <rafaelw> sure.
  52. # [01:23] <Hixie> one is, if you have <table><template>text</template</table>, am i missing something, or do the suggested changes not handle the text right?
  53. # [01:23] <Hixie> seems like you'll end up in table text mode
  54. # [01:24] <Hixie> which will then trigger the foster parenting
  55. # [01:24] <Hixie> rather than the template parenting
  56. # [01:25] <Hixie> (i think we should probably just define an "insert" algorithm that handles the foster and template parenting hacks rather than doing it as now with "comefrom"-style programming, fwiw. but that's an editorial thing.)
  57. # [01:26] <rafaelw> when do you end up in table text mode?
  58. # [01:27] <Hixie> <table>text
  59. # [01:27] <rafaelw> but which token put you in table text mode?
  60. # [01:27] <Hixie> the "t"
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  62. # [01:27] <Hixie> oh, i see, <template> will be the current node in the template case
  63. # [01:27] <Hixie> hmm, interesting
  64. # [01:28] <Hixie> oh that _is_ interesting
  65. # [01:28] <rafaelw> nope. the <template> put you in "template contents" mode.
  66. # [01:28] <Hixie> that means we never get to foster parent text _or_ comment nodes
  67. # [01:28] <Hixie> rafaelw: yeah, got it
  68. # [01:28] <Hixie> rafaelw: so, next question; is the lack of foreign content support intentional?
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  70. # [01:29] <Hixie> or is it magically supported some way i can't tell :-)
  71. # [01:29] <rafaelw> what looks like isn't supported?
  72. # [01:29] <Hixie> like, <html><svg><template>
  73. # [01:29] <rafaelw> Well, in that case, it's a <template> in the svg namespace.
  74. # [01:30] <rafaelw> Which doesn't do much interesting.
  75. # [01:30] <Hixie> right
  76. # [01:30] <Hixie> that's intentional?
  77. # [01:30] <rafaelw> We can still make the call that <template> is even more magical and behaves the same in svg & mathml.
  78. # [01:30] <rafaelw> I'd say: not addressed yet.
  79. # [01:30] <Hixie> ok, cool
  80. # [01:30] <Hixie> thanks
  81. # [01:30] <rafaelw> We discussed this with Tab and kind of concluded that that could be left to the svg/mathml to champion.
  82. # [01:31] <Hixie> sgtm
  83. # [01:31] <rafaelw> svg/mathml *folks*
  84. # [01:31] <rafaelw> Anything else?
  85. # [01:31] <rafaelw> I'll review Robin's changes right now.
  86. # [01:31] <Hixie> not right now, but i'm still looking :-)
  87. # [01:31] <rafaelw> let me know =-)
  88. # [01:32] <Hixie> i think i might end up doing a separate merge from darobin's, i'm finding too many things i disagree with at an editorial level
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  90. # [01:32] <Hixie> e.g. having the template parenting use comefrom-style prose as well as foster parenting doing that makes the whole insertion thing really hard to follow now
  91. # [01:32] <Hixie> so i think i should merge it all into one clear algorithm
  92. # [01:32] <Hixie> still just going through trying to understand it, right now, though
  93. # [01:35] <Hixie> rafaelw: oh, another question; is there some reason for section 7.2 in https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html#creating-an-element-for-a-token ?
  94. # [01:35] <Hixie> the bit that talks about ownerDocument?
  95. # [01:35] <Hixie> it seems like every node will be inserted into another node, which forces the ownerDocument anyway, no?
  96. # [01:35] <Hixie> or is there some way you can end up with orphan nodes?
  97. # [01:35] <rafaelw> the issue is that the node needs to be constructed into the correct document.
  98. # [01:36] <rafaelw> If it's constructed in a "live" document, even transiently, it can have side effects.
  99. # [01:36] <Hixie> ah, interesting
  100. # [01:36] <rafaelw> The goal of template content is that it's inner.
  101. # [01:36] <rafaelw> inert.
  102. # [01:36] <Hixie> yeah
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  108. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> rafaelw: Given that I'm an SVG folk, I think I should champion it. ^_^
  109. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> I definitely know I'd like to be able to use <template> in SVG.
  110. # [01:44] <Hixie> should be simpler for svg than html, no crazy parsing rules to deal with
  111. # [01:44] <Hixie> well, except for shunting into a separate doc
  112. # [01:44] <rafaelw> Ah, those salt-of-the-earth SVG folk. Good people.
  113. # [01:44] <shepazu> I've always assumed that <template> would work in SVG, happy if you'll hande the details, TabAtkins
  114. # [01:44] <Hixie> btw did we ever come to a decision on how this works i xml?
  115. # [01:44] <Hixie> in
  116. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Don't think so?
  117. # [01:50] <rafaelw> Well, the spec has some to say about XHTML, but not XML in general.
  118. # [01:50] <rafaelw> (also XSLT & XPath)
  119. # [01:53] <Hixie> xhtml and xml are basically the same thing for these purposes
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  121. # [01:54] <rafaelw> so the spec doesn't answer this question for you?
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  124. # [01:55] <Hixie> looks like the answer is, yes, we concluded that we were changing the xml parser :-)
  125. # [01:56] <Hixie> to have special rules specefically for nodes in[4~ the HTML namespace
  126. # [01:56] <Hixie> which isn't really new, it's just pushing what we had already a little further
  127. # [01:56] <rafaelw> yep. this was basically henri's requirement for supporting the whole plan.
  128. # [01:57] <rafaelw> (which i also happen to agree with(.
  129. # [01:57] <rafaelw> ).
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  131. # [01:58] <Hixie> given that i am the last one to this party, it having been specced in both webapps and the htmlwg before i'd even begun, i wonder if i'm still the one who's gonna get the blunt end of the criticsm from the xml community...
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  133. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> Hixie: How can you even ask that question? Of course you will.
  134. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> Largely *because* you're the last one to the party. Also because you're Hixie.
  135. # [02:00] <Hixie> uh huh :-|
  136. # [02:00] <rafaelw> What criticism do you expect?
  137. # [02:01] <Hixie> rafaelw: that we are "unilaterally ruining the web" and "making the beautiful world that is xml" be all "ruined" and so forth
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  139. # [02:02] <rafaelw> oh....that....
  140. # [02:02] <rafaelw> ;-)
  141. # [02:02] <zewt> ruining xml
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  143. # [02:03] <rafaelw> I think that maintaining the XHTML/HTML equivalence was a good thing,
  144. # [02:03] <zewt> is that like emptying a bag of dirt into a port-a-potty
  145. # [02:03] <rafaelw> but to be honest, I kind of feel like I'm happy letting the XML folks decide for themselves.
  146. # [02:04] <rafaelw> You can XHTML/HTML equivalence or not change the XML parser. Not both.
  147. # [02:04] <Hixie> yup
  148. # [02:04] <rafaelw> The thing that isn't reasonable is claiming that HTML parsing should never be able to express anything that the XML parser can't understand -- if you're uninterested in changing the XML parsing.
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  150. # [02:06] <Hixie> yeah, no need to convince me
  151. # [02:06] <Hixie> :-)
  152. # [02:06] <Hixie> i'm the first one to suggest divergent parsing and so forth
  153. # [02:06] * rafaelw gets down off the soap box.
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  176. # [03:23] <zewt> hearing "WebVTT depending on TTML", loading TTML spec, hoping it's just a *really* bad joke
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  190. # [03:52] <nessy> zewt: that's definitely a misunderstanding!
  191. # [03:53] <zewt> from the number of posts talking about using TTML for chapters in webvtt, i sure wonder how it could be :)
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  216. # [04:43] <nessy> zewt: there's a difference between WebVTT and the TextTrackAPI
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  218. # [04:43] <nessy> but I'm sure that thread is confusing to some
  219. # [04:45] <nessy> I'm gonna let go for now - I'm obviously not making my point well enough :-)
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  236. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> rafaelw, Hixie : regarding the XML partisans potentially making a fuss about the parsing and XSLT/XPath changes: Do we expect that tools other than browsers are going to need to do any special processing of <template>? Or that we'd even want them to?
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  238. # [06:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: dunno
  239. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> ok
  240. # [06:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i would imagine that xslt would want to have the same result whether done on a dom tree parsed by a browser or offline
  241. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: even if the purpose of the xslt is to generate something that's then going to be sent over the wire to Web clients?
  242. # [06:05] <Hixie> i guess it's possible that you never want to use the same xslt on a browser and on a server if you're using <template>, independent of the different parse behaviour
  243. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> but wait is the spec actually defining any change in XSLT behavior anyway?
  244. # [06:07] <Hixie> xml behaviour
  245. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> it says, "XSLT processing should to treat template contents as descendants of the template element when contained in XHTML input of an XSLT transform and place the descendants of a template element into template contents in XSLT output."
  246. # [06:07] <Hixie> oh, interesting
  247. # [06:07] <Hixie> ok so the difference would be with other technologies like xslt that aren't xslt
  248. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> of course XPath handling is different though
  249. # [06:08] <Hixie> just so we're clear, i personally am not particularly worried one way or the other :-)
  250. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> heh :)
  251. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> yeah, I figured
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  253. # [06:11] * a-ja decides not to hold his breath waiting for two interoperable implementations
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  264. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> manu-db: it would really help if the definitions of shared terminology in the RDFa spec were unambiguous. Or even if they were defined at all.
  265. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> re: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-prefix
  266. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> the spec doesn't define what a "white space separated list" is
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  273. # [06:53] <MikeSmith> OK now I find http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#white_space
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  275. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> "When attributes accept a white space separated list of tokens, an RDFa Processor must ignore any leading or trailing white space."
  276. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> I'm not actually implementing a conforming RDFa Processor (nor need to to) but OK
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  280. # [07:04] <Hixie> how the hell does the AAA ever trigger foster parenting in step 10
  281. # [07:05] <Hixie> oh, duh
  282. # [07:05] <Hixie> nevermind
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  316. # [08:57] <zcorpan_> hmm. didn't the spec used to have "escaped text spans" for things like <title>&amp; <!-- &amp; --></title>?
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  319. # [08:58] <zcorpan_> i guess it was dropped as part of the script parsing rewrite
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  321. # [09:03] <zcorpan_> so we accidentally killed a quirk that turned out to not be necessary for compat
  322. # [09:03] * Joins: tobie (~tobielang@73-118.195-178.cust.bluewin.ch)
  323. # [09:04] <zcorpan_> (quirk as in weird behavior, not related to the modes)
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  344. # [10:17] * jgraham note to self: quote Hixie on "one clear algorithm" later :)
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  358. # [10:51] <annevk> http://what-if.xkcd.com/51/ what about the squirrel suit?!!
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  360. # [10:58] <jgraham> Isn't a squirrel suit a type of wingsuit? I'm not sure that literally dressing as a squirrel would help nearly as much…
  361. # [11:01] <annevk> Oh it is. Disappointing.
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  364. # [11:44] <tobie> ^ :D
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  370. # [11:57] <zcorpan_> annevk: do you recall why MediaList has a stringifier?
  371. # [11:57] <annevk> zcorpan_: I think I had some idea of .media returning a MediaList
  372. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> annevk: which .media?
  373. # [11:58] <annevk> zcorpan_: all of them :)
  374. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> <link>.media?
  375. # [11:58] <annevk> Yeah, back then <a> too, but that's gone it seems
  376. # [11:59] <annevk> Note that I'm no longer sure if that's actually realistic
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  378. # [11:59] <annevk> Or a good idea really, MediaList is not a great API
  379. # [12:00] <zcorpan_> maybe i can use [PutForwards=mediaText] on StyleSheet.media at least
  380. # [12:00] <zcorpan_> similar to .style
  381. # [12:01] <zcorpan_> i'm not sure it's a good idea to make <link>.media return MediaList since a <link> doesn't necessarily have a style sheet to begin with
  382. # [12:02] <zcorpan_> but changing media="" should probably update mediaText
  383. # [12:02] <annevk> Well, .media always holds media queries
  384. # [12:02] <zcorpan_> true
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  386. # [12:03] <annevk> Oh, MediaList has a constructor now?
  387. # [12:03] <zcorpan_> not any more
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  389. # [12:04] <annevk> I guess MediaList is conceptually a Set, but probably an ordered Set in practice...
  390. # [12:04] <annevk> Because of serialization. It would've been nice if we had invented all those primitives before all these adhoc APIs.
  391. # [12:05] <zcorpan_> would've been nice if document.write wasn't invented :-P
  392. # [12:05] <annevk> Hey, shut up and give me a pony
  393. # [12:05] <zcorpan_> on it
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  395. # [12:06] <zcorpan_> hey look, CSSImportRule already has [PutForwards=mediaText]
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  397. # [12:09] <zcorpan_> i wonder what elementFromPoint should do if the root element has pointer-events:none
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  401. # [12:17] <zcorpan_> i also wonder what elementsFromPoint should do in a case like this http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2365
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  403. # [12:22] <annevk> Hint: define hit testing
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  408. # [12:43] <annevk> Hmm... So Fetch not being able to just deal with a Document object is somewhat annoying...
  409. # [12:43] <annevk> (It cannot have a document object association if we assume the eventual architecture is that Fetch is a distinct thread.)
  410. # [12:45] <annevk> But e.g. for CSP having a load group would make a lot of sense. The load group holds the policy and enforces it for each fetch that gets queued in it.
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  416. # [13:23] <annevk> zcorpan_: could you maybe update my email address at the top of the CSSOM spec?
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  419. # [13:23] <annevk> zcorpan_: people still try to contact me through my former @opera.com address so the less it's out there the better
  420. # [13:23] <zcorpan_> annevk: sure
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  422. # [13:24] <zcorpan_> annevk: should i change the opera affiliation?
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  451. # [14:24] <annevk> zcorpan_: I guess
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  453. # [14:25] <zcorpan_> annevk: i left it saying opera since you worked for opera when you stopped editing
  454. # [14:25] <annevk> zcorpan_: fair enough
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  459. # [14:40] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: can you add me to the anolis project so i can close bugs?
  460. # [14:41] * zcorpan_ looks at https://bitbucket.org/site/master/issue/4084/close-resolve-issues-using-comment-of-a
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  468. # [14:55] <Ms2ger> zcorpan_, I will as soon as I can log in :)
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  471. # [14:59] <zcorpan_> TabAtkins: what's the status on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0038.html ? is there a bug or something i can follow?
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  477. # [15:17] <manu-db> MikeSmith: are you referring to the 'prefix' thing? Yeah, I noticed that when I went looking for the whitespace allowance for the contents of prefix. It's unfortunate that the discussion didn't happen two weeks ago. We could've done something to fix it in the PER for RDFa Core 1.1 (which goes out today)
  478. # [15:17] <manu-db> MikeSmith: We can put it in the errata so that the next rev will pick it up.
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  483. # [15:22] <annevk> Anolis should move to GH...
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  485. # [15:23] <Ms2ger> No thanks
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  489. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> manu-db: ok, thanks -- yeah, I'll try to write up some proposed text
  490. # [15:48] <manu-db> MikeSmith: ok, thx, much appreciated - gotta prep for a call in 12 minutes, let me know if you have something you want me to look at and I can check it out after the call.
  491. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> ok
  492. # [15:54] <annevk> Hmm, did http://labs.ft.com/2013/01/seamless-iframes-not-quite-seamless/ ever come up on a mailing list?
  493. # [15:55] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  494. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> "Netscape Navigator 4 supported a src attribute on DIV tags which pretty much solved all of these problems..."
  495. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> If only we'd all implemented <layer>...
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  504. # [16:11] <annevk> <ilayer> is where it's at I hear
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  512. # [16:12] <annevk> I need to get out of this hole of writing specs that are important but nobody really cares about
  513. # [16:12] * Parts: JimJibber (~jim@132.185.151.37)
  514. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> We care
  515. # [16:15] <Ms2ger> Abstractly
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  519. # [16:18] <jgraham> I think what Ms2ger means is "we care about the abstracts"
  520. # [16:18] * 02HAAAABD is now known as tomaw
  521. # [16:18] <jgraham> Because who has time to actually read whole specs these days?
  522. # [16:19] <nessy1> annevk: look at it as a niche rather than a hole ;-)
  523. # [16:19] <annevk> jgraham: heh
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  526. # [16:20] <annevk> nessy1: yeah, that prolly came of worse than I meant it, but it would be nice to work on stuff that has more collaboration without having to ask people to partake
  527. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> annevk, you could go and work on webrtc ;)
  528. # [16:22] <annevk> I'm getting the impression it's IETF-zoned.
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  530. # [16:23] <jgraham> It is at least true that people get very excited about it
  531. # [16:24] <SimonSapin> annevk: AFAIU the network/protocols part is in IETF, the browser/APIs part in W3C
  532. # [16:24] <annevk> SimonSapin: did you check who's involved W3C-side?
  533. # [16:25] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@71-81-17-2.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com)
  534. # [16:26] <SimonSapin> annevk: no, just heard Adam Roach talk about it in Taipei
  535. # [16:26] <SimonSapin> https://intranet.mozilla.org/images/7/7d/Intro-to-IETF.pdf
  536. # [16:27] <Ms2ger> Boo, intranet
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  539. # [16:29] <SimonSapin> sorry :/
  540. # [16:30] <Ms2ger> Want to poke whoever put it there? :)
  541. # [16:30] <Ms2ger> Or tell me who it was, so I can shout
  542. # [16:30] * Quits: doublec (~doublec@unaffiliated/doublec) (*.net *.split)
  543. # [16:31] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: Adam Roach, abr on IRC
  544. # [16:31] <SimonSapin> "Standardization and Mozilla: IETF"
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  547. # [16:36] <SimonSapin> pinged about making our work week slides public
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  549. # [16:37] <Ms2ger> Ta
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  551. # Session Close: Tue Jun 25 16:39:33 2013
  552. #
  553. # Session Start: Tue Jun 25 16:39:33 2013
  554. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  558. # [16:51] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  572. # [17:17] <Ms2ger> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53717247/Intro-to-IETF.pdf in case people are interested
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  579. # [17:29] <zewt> "Your search - python backtrace - did not match any documents." go home google you are drunk
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  588. # [17:45] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  589. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks
  590. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Np
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  689. # [19:08] <annevk> Ms2ger++
  690. # [19:08] * annevk encourages SimonSapin to share more links that ought to be public
  691. # [19:09] <Ms2ger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/?
  692. # [19:09] <SimonSapin> annevk: I talked to Jet, he agrees that work week talks should be public
  693. # [19:10] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: we don’t have much there, but yeah
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  695. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> I'm afraid dbaron wouldn't approve if I made that public :)
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  698. # [19:13] <SimonSapin> I meant rather push the WG to get rid of this list and use www-style, or a have a public administrative list
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  703. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> Yeah, would be nice
  704. # [19:14] <SimonSapin> But perhaps F2F dinner/travel plans really don’t need to be public :)
  705. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> I find those rather interesting ;)
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  753. # [19:41] <rillian> annevk: your webvtt validator could give a better error message for '00:01.500 -> 00:02.300'
  754. # [19:41] <annevk> Is this where I say, "patches welcome"?
  755. # [19:42] <rillian> I'm sure that's one of the dialog choices in the menu
  756. # [19:42] <annevk> "Line 4, column 1: Timestamp must start with a character in the range 0-9." is kinda poor indeed
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  760. # [19:52] <rillian> annevk: quite
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  790. # [20:17] <annevk> rillian: so it seems like you found an actual bug somewhere
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  793. # [20:17] <annevk> rillian: code suggests it should alert "No valid timestamp separator found." so something is amiss :/
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  795. # [20:22] <rillian> bug!
  796. # [20:23] <annevk> rillian: ooh, so what happens is that because the line does not contain "-->" it becomes an ID
  797. # [20:23] <annevk> rillian: because that's how WebVTT handles IDs...
  798. # [20:24] <annevk> rillian: so I'm not sure there's anything I can do here really
  799. # [20:24] <annevk> rillian: you'll get a much more sensible message for "ID\n00:11.000 -> 00:13.000"
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  803. # [20:29] <rillian> annevk: maybe change the error to 'couldn't find valid timestamps'?
  804. # [20:30] * rillian is out for a bit
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  808. # [20:39] <annevk> might give it another look tomorrow
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  810. # [20:40] <jgraham> SimonSapin: You are supposed to thinkn in terms of "does this need to be private", not "does this need to be public" :p
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  860. # [22:53] <Hixie_> i'm actually doing deep enough work on the html parser that i'm swapping in my parser knowledge again
  861. # [22:53] <Hixie_> yikes
  862. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> Yikes indeed
  863. # [22:55] <Hixie_> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7997&to=7999
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  877. # [23:22] <Ms2ger> I have to say I'm quite fascinated that TC39 apparently decided to add Number.parseInt, which does the same thing as parseInt
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  890. # [23:46] <Hixie_> rafaelw: yt?
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  892. # [23:46] <rafaelw> hixie: here
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  895. # [23:49] <Hixie_> rafaelw: can you walk me through the foster parenting case for template?
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  897. # [23:49] <rafaelw> sure.
  898. # [23:49] <Hixie_> rafaelw: what would happen that you don't want to have happen if that line wasn't there?
  899. # [23:50] <rafaelw> you can't have any content lifted out of the template.
  900. # [23:50] <rafaelw> that's the main thing.
  901. # [23:50] <Hixie_> what's an example of input that would trigger that?
  902. # [23:51] <rafaelw> Trying swap of all this back in.
  903. # [23:51] <rafaelw> I think, for example, <template><tr>Foo
  904. # [23:51] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  905. # [23:51] <rafaelw> would have attempted to lift the Foo outside the template.
  906. # [23:53] <Hixie_> oh right, i keep forgetting <template> applies in cases like that
  907. # [23:53] <Hixie_> ok, thanks
  908. # [23:53] <rafaelw> ;-)
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  911. # [23:54] <Hixie_> rafaelw: in the "or a table element immediately below it" case, isn't that the same as normal foster parenting?
  912. # [23:55] <Hixie_> ( https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html#foster-parent-addition )
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  917. # [23:59] <rafaelw> no. i'm trying to remember why.
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  919. # [23:59] <rafaelw> i know there's an html5lib case that covers it.
  920. # [23:59] <rafaelw> (brain is slow today)
  921. # Session Close: Wed Jun 26 00:00:01 2013

The end :)